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CAW-GM talks miss midnight deadline
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Fri. May. 15 2009 11:20 PM ET
The midnight deadline for the Canadian Auto Workers' union and GM Canada to reach a labour concession deal has passed without word that a new agreement has been reached.
Shannon Devine, a spokesperson for the CAW, told CTV.ca late Friday night that the union did not expect to strike a deal but that "we're going to continue talking until we reach an agreement."
Devine had said the union committee that would vote on a potential agreement is meeting at 9 a.m. Saturday, but it appears they do not have a deal to vote on.
She said no announcement of a potential agreement could take place before the committee meets.
CAW president Ken Lewenza says his union is locked in the most difficult bargaining process ever as it struggles to reach a cost-cutting deal with GM Canada by midnight.
"This is the third time we've been in bargaining with General Motors in the last 12 months," he told CTV Newsnet on Friday.
The union has offered the Chrysler deal, which resulted in a total compensation cut of $19 per hour or about 25 per cent, but the company "continues to be overzealous," he claimed.
"They say the Chrysler deal doesn't meet their needs."
The Chrysler deal protected base wages for workers, but benefits took a hit.
Lewenza said his union is trying to reach a deal that "minimizes the pain" for its membership while earning the support of the federal and Ontario governments.
A GM Canada spokesman would only say there is "lots of hard work going on."
Prime Minister Stephen Harper said further government help is contingent on a "viable, sustainable" company emerging.
"I don't think we relish this kind of participation in a private-sector company," he told reporters Friday at a Toronto news conference held to make a public transit funding announcement.
"But as we have said, if all of the stakeholders in General Motors are prepared to do the things necessary to ensure the long-run viability of the company, we are prepared to work together in concert with the government of the United States to make sure that we preserve our share of auto production in this country."
Harper sidestepped the question of whether Ottawa would help Queen's Park cover a $7-billion pension liability if negotiations fail and GM Canada goes under.
Ontario's Premier Dalton McGuinty said in the case of Chrysler, "each (stakeholder) decided they had to give something in order to save the whole.
"And we're convinced that with goodwill and determination, we can arrive at a solution here," he said.
McGuinty repeated his government's line that the best way to protect GM pensioners is to "ensure that GM is viable going forward."
If no agreement is reached, both the federal and Ontario government will cut off financial support. In the words of CAW Union President Ken Lewenza, GM Canada will be "liquidated."
Lewenza said the union is "not even close" to a deal as of early Friday afternoon.
The pension issue
GM and the union reached an agreement in March that reduced total labour compensation costs by $7 per hour or about 10 per cent. Lewenza claimed that the union made a $500-million sacrifice in the areas of retirement and health benefits.
But the federal and provincial government said it didn't cut labour costs enough, and ordered the two sides back to the bargaining table.
The prospect of GM Canada's "liquidation" would be daunting, considering how integrated the Canadian wing is with the parent company.
The main sticking point in negotiations is pensions, both present and future.
Analyst Richard Cooper, of JD Power Associates Canada, says the unions and GM have a "tough road ahead" on the pension issue.
"The issue for General Motors is that so many of the people who are dependant on them are not active workers anymore. It's those legacy costs," Cooper told CTV's Canada AM.
On Thursday, a group of retired GM workers staged a sit-in at the office of Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan, demanding more pension protection. The minister told the pensioners in Windsor on Friday that their concerns are valid.
Duncan said he plans to bring in legislation in the fall to address the issue of provincial backup for at-risk private pensions.
All this is happening amid the backdrop of Thursday's closing of GM's truck plant in Oshawa, Ont. The last pickup truck rolled off the assembly line, and the workers sent home.
The plant had been in operation since 1965, and produced 10 million vehicles.
"General Motors chose to close the most productive, high-quality plant in the world, and that's a decision we opposed," Lewenza said, noting the CAW protests of last year.
Thursday was a painful day for his members, "but for the next few hours, we've got to concentrate on what we've got left," he said.
Meanwhile, south of the border, GM told 1,100 U.S. owners that their franchise agreements will not be renewed.
In Canada, GM will reduce its dealerships to something between 395 and 425 by the end of 2010. There are currently 705 dealerships. An estimated 12,000 jobs will be affected.
This comes a day after Chrysler dropped 789 of its dealers.
With files from The Canadian Press and The Associated Press
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The chance of the destruction of our planet is very very small with this collider, but who are these people to decide what risks are acceptable for all of mankind? It puts me at unease and adds to my anxiety. CERN acknowledges that there are miniscule risks -- they admit to it so please spare the convoluted retorts.







Comments are now closed for this story
James
said
GEE WHIZ
said
Terry in Ottawa
said
Phil in Ajax
said
liz ottawa
said
Autoworker's Wife (Not GM)
said
To the GM workers, my thoughts are with you and your families, we all feel your pain. To the public why don't you support the canadian ecomomy rather than Japan's.
God Bless!
rob from ontario
said
Chris
said
Which just happens to be a long weekend when most of the GM workers able to vote will be away! As far as the CAW is concerned a absent vote is a yes vote.
It's all from a genarel social malaise
said
Much worse is coming unless we collectively recognize that we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
GM, if it survives, will take many many years to rebound to its former glory, if ever.
CAW PROUD
said
Blue Collar
said
Roy
said
Carol in NB
said
kate
said
RJ in Halifax
said
CAW PROUD
said
SHAME SHAME... someone has to work in the factories to provide your silver spoons!
MK
said
Pugfire
said
Nobody wants to lose salary and benefits, but if GM goes into bankrupcy, they, the unionists, will lose both salary and pension.
I suppose then they will want the taxpayer to cover their pensions???
If they want to be really helpful, stop bickering over every cent, the standard is there (Chrysler deal), meet it and live another day! Fail and die, and then what will the union do for you?
Dale
said
The oil company's did this to us,Now everyone is going after the autoworker,and other people.
What about the gas prices now,the oil is selling for around $57.00 a barrel and the gas is at
$.92 cents.Use your head people who is still at the top of this problem.Not the working person.
Here now WHATS the government doing now.NOTHING.
DavidL, Port Hope
said
They could have dropped all their "gains" from the past many years of confrontational demanding and requested:
1) Significant participation on the board,
2)wages + benefits + pensions more in line with the realities of economy,
3) bolstering the pension plan from the union coffers, and
4)a profit-sharing plan.
Profit sharing plans give employees a HUGE incentive to perform at maximum efficiency and boost quality.
But unfortunately they chose the same stubborn route they followed all these decades. As Dr. Phil would say, "How's that working for you?".
DJ in Quebec
said
As a taxpayer,
said
Reason: - If the unemployment rate keeps going up, it will take longer for all of us to RECOVER!
Besides, the money that goes out to Unemployment Insurance will be "sky high".
Either way, we, as a taxpayer are NOT winning.
Yes, I agreed that GM need to reconstruct from the Management, Marketing, Designer, present union members to retire union members. Compound with the bad economic. But BOTH Governments are also QUITY TOO! Someone should put a STOP ON THIS LONG TIME AGO!!!
Don't forget Toyota and Honda are LOSSING money in this car market money LATELY!
I truly feel sorry for the group of employees that work closely with the car industry like the part supplies, little store in the Oshawa neighbourhood etc.
Someone has to TAKE and someone has to GIVE.
We shall see the outcome in the coming days and weeks! SHOULD BE INTERESTING HOW BOTH GOVERNMENTS' ACTION WILL BE!!!!
A Matter Of Time
said
Wendy Sunderland
said
Wake up Canada we can slow down the depletion of our economies-just think before you purchase and try to buy what we build.
I wish all Canadain bussinesses the best for survival. Our children depend on us to create a future for them in our country.
Buy what we make
Frank Van Roessel
said
Roy
said
If the government of this country had half a brain between them they would cut purchase tax on ALL goods for at least 3 months so we could purchase the things that we desire and need like Automobiles, Furniture, Appliances etc etc and we would all be fully employed due to the demand for goods manufactured in Canada. Instead they give our tax dollars to prop up companies that threaten our jobs.
C.T.
said
If they can no longer remain competitive they should no longer be in the game.
Gord. Robson , Nova Scotia
said
General Motors have not provided Canadians with the vechiles that we need and want. Too many models and too many gas guzzlers.
You can give them Billions more dollars and they will be back for more.
Goodbye G.M.
John from TO
said
Get your facts straight before the union bashing (from the Jealous guys) begins
To the disrespectful
said
Jean-Francois Halifax
said
CEJ-Ontario
said
You conveniently left out your Liberal friends who are in charge in Ontario. Don't forget it is McGuinty and his team that are also refusing to cover the pension benefits. I really enjoy the "Union" folk who, through years of Rah Rah Union brainwashing, can not see they played a part in the downfall of these companies.
I recall reading a stat that shows there are about 3.5 retirees to 1 worker at GM.
Declining sales, declining profit, increasing costs equals bankruptcy. The sooner all the union drones realise that there is no such thing as job security, and negotiate a real contract that pays a more realistic wage and benefit package, the better of GM might have been. Unfortunately it is too late. The corporate and union greed has snuffed out a once giant in the industry.
Jon in London ON
said
The Government in power that allowed GM not to fund their pension was the Bob Rae NDP.
The government that is poised to bail out GM is Conservative.
When it's reported that the U/CAW owns 50% of Chrysler & GM stock, it the Union Management not the rank and file (the worker) that own it.
The union has no interest in the workers well being. Since the unions have become political parties, only interested in their preservation. As a union member on the shop floor, you just get to pay for it through your union dues.
Allan
said
For decades these executives ordered cars built that didn't fit a long term vision. America had gas shortages in the 1970s and these guys went on to build SUVs and Hummers. They had a "today vision" not a future vision.
And if union wages got too high, well, whose fault is that? These executives should have negotiated harder. Back in 1983 a Chrysler VP told me their health care costs in the US added $700 to the cost per vehicle. Three years ago when GM moved 3500 jobs to Canada, those costs were $1500 per vehicle.
The executives took the money, bathed in the perks and screwed up royally. The shareholders should sue.
steve
said
Give Me a Freaking Break!
said
To management and unions: What did you think would happen!!
HM
said
What a horrible waste of our tax dollars trying to prop up these companies!!! They have failed, let them fail and stop wasting our (tax payers) money!!!
kodiak
said
1) Toyota and Honda workers in Canada make more money that Detroit 3 workers to keep the unions out.
The only diffeence right now is GM has been here over a 100 years and has retires of I beleive 25000. The Toyota and Honda workers will be in the same spot in 10 , 20 years.
I just hope you are not thretened with your retiement when the time comes.
JB in Ontario
said
At least this way GM can buy some time and figure out how to remain in the market and out of the red.
We need to do whatever it takes to make GM a viable company to maintain jobs and create more. GM has too strong a history to be abandoned.
Linda Mallett
said
Gord Muirhead - sault ste. marie
said
Jim Macdonald
said
Tony Oshawa
said
Do you want us to close it or are you willing to work for $12 bucks an hour ?
The CAW has done this for years to GM and the rest.
Give us this perk..give us that..we want higher wages..if NOT ..WE STRIKE ! It's a trend...
GM needs to say ..NO ..you strike ..we CLOSE.
It's not the CAW or UAW to position to tell a company how much they can make. No one should have the right to tell a company what to do with their profits. Such as no one tells a worker what to do with their wages.
We don't live in Cuba !!!
And that is what the UNIONS have become ..DICTATOR'S !
GM is in a controling relationship ..they need to severe the ties and move on.
RIP
Calvin Yeo
said
Or...let's just close the plants. Then my body can rest from the 57 minute/hour for 8 hours a day that I work. I can quit chasing the assembly line and chase my grandchildren instead. And the new job I get, leaning on a shovel, won't be so hard on me.
And, when there is no money to go around, the farmers will cry poorer and want more subsidies, the banks will have to seize homes for non-payment of mortgages and North America comes to a standstill.
This all started with people buying on credit, the loans and mortgage people screwing up by allowing credit to skyrocket and no one saving a dime. How many people have more than $5,000 in savings? Not many, I'll wager.
Take a look at yourselves before you criticize others. You work where you do for your reasons. I work in the auto industry for mine. We made our life choice, now we have to live with it.
CAW PROUD
said
Roy
said
Why don't we tell the BIG three that we will not bail them out and that we will use the BILLIONS of dollars they want to fleece from out of our coffers, let's build our own cars andd trucks just like the Germans did with the VW and the Japanese did with the Toyota, they are true success companies. Let's stop relying on foreign vehicles and put the billions into THE CANADIAN CAR and tell the unions to take a hike so we can sell at competitive prices.
Al
said
Suprised at Stupidity
said
Chris in Ajax
said
union misrepresentation
said
If that plant made the "very best trucks in the world" as the memers claim, then why did they shut it down ? Preople are still buying trucks...and to the union members on CTV last night that say the gov't(us) should look after your pension, then you are nuts. It was a fellow socialist, Bobby Rae that ok'd the pension deal with GM and it's union. I did not see the union complain about it at the time. I guess Buzz and Bobby White never thought that people would stop buying your crappy cars. So why isn't the Union protesting at Bobby Rae's office ???? Dwight Duncan can do nothing for you, but I guess the brothers and sisters need someone to blame for their greed and self sense of entitelment over the years. Kenny Lewenza is using the same old scare tatics that went the way of the Do-Do bird..GM will not liquiddate it's assests in Canada Ken and you kow it, so stop panicking your members.
John Deremo
said
Gord
said
Ontario Premier Mc Guinty is correct in protecting the interests of the average Ontario taxpayer in insisting the GM Canada underfunded pension shortfall be dealt with internally in any GM restructuring before any more government funding is agreed to.
Buzz and the Big 3 management knew for years that the companies could not agree to these generous wages, benefits and pensions and meet other expenses and survive. Overhead was too much, Thus, the CAW leadership let this non contributory underfunding slide under the radar mainly because the average CAW member only understands how much jingle does he have in his jeans NOW and Buzz got to crow to his membership. The last thing Buzz wanted was defeat as CAW Boss by a p**ed off membership and have to go back to the assembly line at Chrysler Windsor. GM leadership just signed anything it seems because their bonuses and promotion was based on production. They were both in cahoots. Together they just kept kicking the pension issue down the road for future CEO’s and CAW bosses to deal with. Hello Kenny Boy. How’s your inheritance from Brother Buzz doin’.
Tom Hanna
said
Ed, Toronto
said
Where's the downside?
The only problem is with retirees. Of course, they and their union knew for nearly 20 years that GM wasn't paying into the pension but did nothing. The gov't shouldn't have let it happen but the union shouldn't have either. If someone doesn't pay you the money they owe you and you say and do nothing for 20 years, you've pretty much given up your claim. As for those who've been collecting their pension for many years, well, they knocked off a decade ahead of everyone else and have been collecting royally all this time. If they squandered it all, they get no sympathy from me - or most other Canadians who looked after themselves responsibly.
John Deremo Oshawa
said
Paul from Grafton
said
Durham Resident
said
The union is equally to blame. They continued to hose the company and I don't care what anyone says, the workers are overpayed. I know that the work can be hard, but so is working in a chemical plant making a lot less. And to the retirees, I fully support a guarantee on pension funds that YOU contributed to. However, don't cry about pension money that you didn't contribute. It's not technically yours.
B. Kelley, Ontario
said
michael morgan Providence Bay Ontario
said
I'm voting Green from now on.
A retired G.M. Millwright.
GUTSHOT!! in Thunder Bay
said
Why even run a comments section under this story??
Its so obvious that your average Canadian commenting here is not very intelligent in matters pertaining to, or the importance of GM in the auto industry. They have zero understanding and have demonstrated they are incapable of learning the real truths surrounding this industry, even though CTV has posted some stories to support the truth. Albeit very little.
C'mon CTV show the autoworkers some decency and respect and close the comments section under this article. That's just plain bottom feeding for website hits. Just barely a rung above the supermarket tabloids!
Its also time for the uneducated GM bashers here to put down their pitchforks and torches, and educate themselves on the seriousness and far reaching ramifications of this matter.
Drop the $75/hr rhetoric. Drop the gas guzzler idiocy..Drop the cars nobody wants bit. Drop the cheap plastic garble.(all cars have plastic interiors, get over it) etc..
If the autoworkers have no support from their own fellow man or government, then their fellow man or government will get no support from the autoworkers.
I cant wait til you whiners are crying about the problems that come next. Who you gonna cry to when this whole country is foreign owned and youre a slave to them?
steve burrows
said
At one time unions were needed to protect workers from sinister owners,but no longer, now we need help to protect the average Canadian from greedy and too powerful unions who have no concept of the times at hand.
Urgh
said
James
said
nc
said
"to every end a new beginning"
Al
said
Cathy
said
I have seen it time and time again...big bosses stepping in when it is too late. It is nice that GM is "trying" to do something now, but the damage to Canada and Canadians is done. Congratulations Mexico.
N in Cambridge
said
Ray in Brockville
said
I understand that most of the workers will still be paid for a year anyway. What a perk that many workers do not have.
Adios
All 3 sides are ALL QUILTY
said
For the CEO, Marketing, Desiger, Union LEADERS for FAILING your job but still get pay for bonus. You guys are misleading all the union members! All of you were putting your head in the sand for decades.
You guys are NOT protecting the union members. You guys are ONLY interested in the pay and keep your jobs! Like someone hire a Lawyer to fight for them. Win or loss, that lawyer STILL GET PAY!
Also I do understand that GM employee ARE NOT PAYING $75/HOUR. THAT IS INCLUDED THEIR BENEFIT. THEIR HOURLY RATE IS ABOUT $30 - $40/HOUR.
But just every workers across the country, you guys should put away some income into your savings, R.R.S.P. etc. for retirement. Instead of going out to restaurant, Wal Mart, McDonald, Tim Horton etc. Can cry over it if you don't understand the words - SAVING, SPENDING, WANTING & NEEDING!
For the rest of the canandian citizen, aren't you suppose to support product that are MADE IN CANADA? If you are interested in buying German or Japanese car, who will be buying the canadian cars? (Don't forget they are NOT allow to export it overseas according to our Government???!!!)
It is such a MASS! Even Obama can't fix it. Because it has been going on for over 20 years! We shall find out by the end of TODAY!
Jack
said
Rudolf from the NWT
said
John
said
Clem
said
In your own words: "Why even run a comment section under this story".
Why did you send in a comment?
I'm one of those not very intelligent Canadian you refer to.
It must be nice to be the only one that knows what he's talking about.
Darren in Oshawa
said
Union Management - should have created a cooperative not combative attitude amongst the employees. They should have looked at their competition and set their sites on the company's sucess, not their own
Company Management - have known for 30 years they have been loosing market share. None wanted to make the tuff decisions and the fat got fatter until utter failure. They should never have asked to borrow money from the pension
Government - should never have allowed money to be taken from the pension
Workers - its been shown over and over again that the workers will work their butts off for a good boss and a good company that they beleive in. The perception of greedy, uneducated employees to me stems from a union that was stronger than it should have been. They protected the slackers and that gave a bad reputation to all because thats all you hear about. The unions set the workers against the company and that was downfall. Both the company and union management should have recongnized this and fixed it as it is clear that a major factor in the downward spiral.
GM had the potential and still has, to be the best in the world. GM's CDN plants had the best quality world wide. What a shame that short term thinking by all has led to this massive pain.
Bob from Bolton
said
Anyways I was perplexed to see that the GM workers were pretty much over weight and moving like Malasses in the middle of January...so to speak,(looking pretty complacent) where as the Honda workers seem fit and eager, while also enjoying their work.
Maybe its just the Media or could it be that Honda
Management GETS IT!!!
D.K.
said
There is enough blame to go around and all are at fault and none want to fix this including management. Sure it is sad that GM closed the truck plant in Oshawa buit Buckley should realize this was not a surprise we have all known this for years. GM did NOT stop making trucks they are now making them in Mexico where the labour cost are much lower. GM certainly wants the restructuring and no amount of infighting will change that.Canada will lose most of the auto industry jobs as will the Americans. At this rate the only vehicles assembled in Canada will be Japanese or Korean.
Joe Joe
said
Candu
said
joer
said
Capitalism create this Catastrophe . Let them fix! no Worker tax money.
How about Rick Wagner $ millions for is job well done?
he create the Catastrophe.
How about Free trade.
or globalization trade.
that was create to make reach reacher.
m hance
said
Pro Labour
said
Paul from Grafton
said
You think if we agreed to $12/hr GM would keep the plant open? Um... no. They already built the replacement plant in Mexico for Oshawa truck. It opened a few months before the announced closure of Oshawa Truck. The GM workers in Mexico earn between $2.50 & $4.50/hr. with no or next to no benefits. Minimum wage in Canada is too high to suit multi-national companies, so unless you're advocating lowering the minimum wage, and are willing to work yourself for around $5/hr - OR LESS - I'd suggest you rethink the problem. This is all about Globally focused companies buying gov'ts and using free trade as a tool to lower middle class living standards in Canada, the U.S., and Europe. No matter what you do for a living Tony, your day is coming too. And tax rates will rise drastically on us all as Gov't accumulated debt has been incurred during the high wage years and will have to be repaid in the years of a lower wage structure. Free Trade must end if our children & Grandchildren are to have any sort of decent life in Canada. No party wants to touch that issue tho as the real money behind ALL political parties ultimately comes from the same source. Remember, he who has the gold makes the rules, and politicians will dance to their tune or not be funded.
vinny
said
Earl
said
JB in Calgary
said
A person who actually listened when we asked for a quality car that matches or surpasses the Japanese. I'm just sitting here shaking my head wondering how a company as large as GM could screw it up so badly.
GM was so busy trying to please everybody in their tastes of vehicles and perhaps we're to blame while trying to "keep up with the Jones'". There is no reason we need the number of makes that we have. Pontiac, Chev, Olds, Hummer, GMC, etc. Why not just make one car, one truck and one van that is really good.
Oh but then their parts buddies wouldn't have jobs or their service buddies. We need one "RICH" person to step up who doesn't need to take a profit to take this company over. Then maybe we would get some good cars and trucks again.
The funny thing is I wonder if we ever had quality before? Or was it that GM, Ford, and Dodge, was all we ever knew? Then the German and Japanese vehicles started coming. The Dying three bounced around thinking that "we the buyers" switched brands because we liked a certain brand or style. Mean while we were bouncing from model to model looking for better quality - otherwise Japan wouldn't have won this war.
GM's big sell for 2015 - "The 2015 GM xxxx - NOW WITH 16 CUP HOLDERS - all of which now heat and cool"
The $70 per hour includes benefits for retirees,Al
said
Many fools should turn off their redneck radio stations and get better informed.
Dave from Okotoks
said
kodiak
said
The average autoworker collects 2 retirement checks. Yes some live to a ripe old age but alot do not make it that far either.
We have earned retirement and from repetitive work I hear people who take a hour to shave because they can not lift their arms past their shoulders and in so much pain. It sounds easy and it is when your 20 , 30 but when you start wearing out and can not even do the simple things anymore .. is the money worth it or is it enough?
Do not talk about someone else unless you walked a mile in their shoes.
Let me tell you we are not lazy and work for what we get.
A point to ponder:
said
Lisa A
said
K_W
said
They need to take a pay cut, i would rather take a pay cut then go on EI w/no job.
I've taken a paycut this year so i could keep my job at our factory i think this is what need to be done.
People can bash the governemnt all they want but it comes down to why use taxpayer money to a company we've done this before and still haven't seen the money returned, i say put taxpayer money into companies or even health care people complain so much how our health care is crapping out then lets put money towards that so we can keep hospitals open, get more doctors out there ect..
Also i know pensioners are having hard times but we all are, the government can not afford to pay for them it's not possible where again will they get that money?
If the government bails both GM and Chrysler + pay pensions for these companies we will be in such a deficit canada will not recovery for years... So CAW take the paycuts,reduce the pay to 16 bucks an hour hey i live off of that, be smart with the health benefits find way to cut that but without hurting what the employees need. Employees learn from the world invest into rrsps,open up that new "savings"acct and start saving basically live well and save cause this will happen again Learn the first time correct the issue and everything will be AOK.
James T.
said
Autoworker GM
said
Shay
said
Jean
said
The higher cost estimate circulated in some public debates reflects a very different concept from wages or compensation. This concept is known as “all-in
labour cost per hour.” It is a statistical measure, relatively unique to the auto industry, which captures the effect of all labour-related expenses (even non compensation costs such as payroll taxes paid directly to government, and the costs associated with downtime and layoffs), calculated relative to the number of
hours actually worked in the course of a year.
Until now, Toyota and Honda plants have not experienced layoffs, thanks to more favourable market trends (that are hardly within the power of individual workers). This translates into a two-fold benefit to Honda and Toyota: higher hours per worker per year (and hence lower costs per hour for benefits and other fixed items). Now that Toyota and Honda plants are also experiencing downtime, this may start to change, and their all in-hour labour costs with be higher too.
Almost a century ago, Henry Ford paid his workers a then unheard of $5 per day so they could buy the products they were making, and the auto industry led the way in creating an American and Canadian middle class.
Instead of putting the North American Auto-makers and Auto-workers down, don't forget these plants and their workers were there during World War II. GM turned its facilities to the production of war materials. YES, NORTH AMERICAN AUTO-MAKERS......not the Asian Auto-makers. Remember that the next time you buy a vehicle!!! Do some research on the 9/11 crisis and you will find out who gave monetary support. NOT the foreign auto-makers who dump their products and plants into North America!!!
Charles Barkley
said
James T.
said
I guess some of you union lot should have rowed a little harder...
Vito in Montreal
said
I wish all auto workers good luck and courage facing this terrible ordeal.
Adam in Ottawa
said
1) Management greed
2) Union/Worker greed
3) Poorly designed and manufactured product.
I love how the union blames the government for allowing Imports to be sold here. Competition is the great leveller. Detroit has had 30 years to improve their product as compared to the Japanese, and while they've gotten somewhat better they're still not even in the ballpark in terms of quality. And it is my personal experience that GM is incapable of building a decent reliable vehicle. If you keep screwing people over with poor quality vehicles and lousy service, they will eventually look elsewhere.
That having been said, Bob Rae and the NDP allowed GM to scrimp on the pension fund contributions. Pensioners should get their money that they worked for!
edd-medhat
said
It is impossible to convince the 75% of Canadians that have no corporate pension to give up their taxes so that a few who blew their chances can have it all back.
I think that both the Fed and the Prov governments have been given the message from the taxpayers that we don't want our money wasted on union perks.
Douglas Brown (Newmarket, ON)
said
Brent from BC
said
reporting from ottawa
said
KC-Bby
said
Sarah
said
Gregory
said
I find your comments amazing. I guess you must be one of those so called educated, and by your comments, think that anyone with less education is worthless. I guess the term is elitist.
I have a masters degree in computer science and have worked with both highly educated persons and people with only a high school diploma. I find that on the job experience far out ways education in regard to productivity and ability. In fact in my field I would say that 75% of the best programmers do not have a university degree.
Education does not give one common sense, high motivation, decision making, ability, or communication skills to name a few. In fact the highly educated sometimes are arrogant and do not work well in a team environment. In other words education alone does not make a good worker.
So before you step up on that pedestal, which in your mind, puts you above the common folk, "think"
These ordinary uneducated people (your words) built this country and indeed made it possible for you to get the education you are so impressed with.
Nate from Ontario
said
Your #1 point that Toyota and Honda employees make more money than the Detroit 3 to keep the union out is a bit off. We make the same if not a little less. That fluctuates.
But you are absolutely right about the amount of retirees. I've said many times in these comments sections that the governments are idiots for comparing the wages of GM, Chrysler and Ford to Toyota and Honda. The legacy costs are pushing the wage to "$70" an hour. Toyota and Honda are at "$54" an hour because they have hardly any retirees.
As to all you "educated" people that are blaming the workers, once again, you're showing how ignorant you are. With the Oakville plant closing, how many non-autoworker jobs are going to be lost because of the spin off? Thousands.
Keep blaming the worker, that's what the media and government wants. Because, remember it's the men and women on the floor that make all the great decisions, like "build more Hummers", "let's have 7 brands that all have the same car". Give your heads a shake.
This is a sad day for the ENTIRE auto industry.
Slavko (Kitchener, Ontario)
said
That's how the Ponzi pension scheme works. Today's autoworkers pay for today's retired autoworker's pension, if not then the legacy cost per vehicle sold becomes capitalistically ridiculous.
Governments and taxpayers have no responsibility to autoworkers receiving additional pension pay in coverage. It's the autoworker's union's responsibility to demand the auto company increase the deduction from the autoworker's paycheck to cover the pension of today's retired autoworker. That's what the auto union is for, to protect the autoworker's pension, which they failed to do.
From a non-autoworker's viewpoint:
It's the autoworker's unions from long ago that acted like gangs and forever created fear in society because of violent strikes and threats of stops to the greater economy that rational mathematical thinking didn't take place amongst unions representing the autoworkers. How else did the company come to this collapsing point? These threats from the union created a superior feeling among autoworkers and their unions that they can get what they want. Evidence of this is seen whenever the autoworker's union threatens elected politicians and extorts money from the taxpayer, which should have came from the autoworker's paychecks.
Governments spending money to keep jobs in the country is nice, such as creating the auto pact, but the autoworkers would have to allow auto companies to deduct appropriate amounts from autoworker's paychecks to pay for their fellow retired autoworker.
This type of elementary mathematics is very simple to understand. The auto unions failed.
Have I been as redundant as the unions have been when demanding taxpayers pay for auto company's pensions in addition to the Canadian Pension Plan?
Canada&Ontario have been nice.
GM Driver
said
this is where most of the problems is in terms of salary perception
The rest of the world do not get this ", well in most cases . IF your salary on your pay check is 25 hr for a 37h week that 46250 for a 50 week year , that's an excellent salary when you add in the rest of benefits
There are many people to blame for this mess ... We are a nation of Truck lovers ,SUV lovers , GM was giving us what we wanted . The public is much to blame as the Management at GM ....
Car Guy in Ottawa
said
Rick
said
for any level of government,house prices will reflect values and of course no future employment for anyone regardless of skill level.The other thought is when all our manufacturing leaves I wonder how we will ever be able TO DEFEND OURSELVES Something the spineless politicians can mull over.Its not the worker thats at fault,Bankers,Politicians and ourselves.If people started buying from their North American grown autos maybe they would be opening up factories rather than closing them down The future looks bright,just not here so if your kid wants a good paying job remember what we all gave up.
Karin Pickering
said
Dave in Alberta
said
Dave
said
NO WORK, NO SPENDING, NO TAXES for Government. It's a no win, win situation.
Good Luck GM Truck Employees
Deborah
said
I assume your getting a disablity pension from the force!! Let's hope one day they don't tell you that your on your own or that you don't deserve what is rightfully yours anymore!!.
WESTERNER STILL WORKING
said
Brian
said
Holly
said
Sheldon
said
Nate from Ontario
said
rob
said
KS - Toronto
said
Kyle
said
MRC in Ontario
said
What a crappy world we live in. Why did we do this to ourselves...again?!
tanya_to
said
Cry me river...
Enough already!
said
Between bad products, greedy unions & CEOs, and the changes in the world economy Nobody wants to do thing the old way any more.
Face it, you couldn't adapt and went the way of all dinosaurs.
RIP & absolutely NONE of my tax dollars to bail you out - business or pension wise!
Country Wally
said
If these companies were allowed to fail months ago, we would already be ramping up the production lines with new money from investors who would have come in to fill the gap.
Buzz Hargrove, and the rest of the socialists can spend their sunset years relaxing in bankrupt Iceland, with all the other whining, moaning, socialists.
Aaron in Toronto
said
Jeff in Calgary
said
Oshawa born
said
We need to remember that we don't always need bigger.
Matt C in Calgary
said
Actually, the unions absolutely ARE partly responsible for GM's current situation. The CAW used strike action, or the threat of strike action, as a means of legal coercion to get more and more from GM (i.e. wage increases, increased holiday time, health benefits, pension, etc...). The end result is a company which is uncompetetive in a global economy. A responsible union is one which is concerned with the well being of its members AND the common good (i.e. what is in the best interest of society). A militant union such as the CAW is concerned with getting as much as possible for its members.
If the CAW honestly believes that the current wages, pension and benefits are justified, then they should stick to their guns. Personally, I prefer Japanese imports to domestic.
Every CAW member (past and present) who voted for militant union heads is partly responsible for the current situation.
Dave - ON
said
A in N.L.
said
Terry - Drayton, ON
said
Are they lost jobs. Not really. The basic fact remains that auotmotive retail market needs a certian level of supply. Somebody will build cars to meet that supply requirement. If you have excess capacity for building vehicles that you can't sell, well your gone. It's that simple.
Another fact, that the automakers, the unions and government want you to know is equally basic. All cars are built all over the world from parts made all over the world. Parts are made in one country and sent to another for assembly and visa-versa. All automakers also make parts for other automakers.
So go ahead buy a car built in Ontario. So what. It may have been assembled in an Ontario plant but the parts have come from all over the world. Some GM trucks were built in Oshawa. Some Dodge trucks are built in Mexico, Ford's too. So there you go.
The biggest supplier of autoparts to any automaker is Asia and the Detroit three are no different than the Japanese automakers in this regard. There is even evidence that Detroit uses more Asian built parts than the Japanese guys. The truth is none of this should come as any suprise to anyone with the power to reason.
There are no guarantees in life. The government owes these workers nothing. Just like they owe nothing to any other worker in any other industry.
The last Detroit 3 truck I bought was in 2001 and lets just say it was the very last vehicle I will ever from either of them.
However what I would like to know is when will I ever stop paying for it.
Want me to buy a GM truck? Then build one worth buying.
CAWPROUD
said
Check your facts about unionized workshops. They are the most effective, efficient and produce the highest quality materials around. Just becuase I am UNION doesn't mean I am lazy. If you wanna draw stereotypes and paint all of us with one brush... what must you say of Ethnic groups ?? who's lazy.. who's a drunkard.. There are good people and bad people everywhere. UNIONS provided Health and safety rules and laws we all enjoy. Unions faught for the weekend off, and I think we all use that too. OH YA healthcare, social benefits, Unions sponsor United Way... And yes the Fiberals in Ontario are just as bad as the National PC's for being ANTI UNION. Plenty of long hard faught battles from UNION brothers and sisters in the past are things we ALL take for granted today. Thank a retiree for what they have done, just as if you would thank a VET for their sacrifice and how they have shaped today's society. Don't blame the workers.. very few posters have laid blame on the upper teir who direct the workforce and take home 98% of the fruits of those labours. And just to respond to the foreign car comments... if it wasn't for the AUTOPACT.. honda and the like wouldn't be employing or making squat here. so those jobs would be lost ASAP ! If you are against what the Manufacturing sector makes in Canada follow those companies down to Mexico and enjoy the peso's / day they make down there for shoddy work and less Health and Safety, No health care, etc etc.
Vern
said
Colin
said
Businesses are run by managers. They decide which cars are designed, then built. If they decide to approve poor designs which most people don't want to purchase, how can you blame the assembler? Because the assembler in this case makes a decent wage, he is being blamed.
The fact is Toyota and Honda assembly workers are paid the same wage as CAW workers. The difference being the management of these companies has decided to produce products that the majority of people actually want to purchase. And the design of these products takes into account the quality that people like.
Because the Detroit 3 has been mismanaged for so long, and the associated governments have allowed them to draw from the employee’s pension plan, somehow the workers are allowed to suffer. Yes the employee’s pension plan, part of their compensation was their pension. It is theirs no different from their pay cheque. Commenting on the fact that they didn't contribute to it is simply an uneducated statement.
al from calgary
said
I do not work for a car company so to all you posters out there who keep whining that the union workers are uneducated please remember that the next time the teachers or nurses unions go on strike or when doctors and lawyers want more money "They are educated and in your minds deserve everything they ask for so please no more whining" These so called educated CEO's got the car industry to where it is, they may have been better off promoting from within to someone who worked their way up, knows the industry and have some people skills.
Lloyd Huys
said
Niagara George
said
I am hoping that comments about CAW wages and perks and auto labor costs, in general, are equally false.
BIGART - Winnipeg
said
Erwin
said
Disgusted in Calgary
said
"For all that think the taxes and government should be supporting auto pensions I put this to you: Why should a single mom with 2 kids, making barely enough at 3 part time jobs and no savings / opportunity for pension, support your lazy butt with her tax dollars? Get a job a wal-mart or make an effort somewhere else.
Cry me river..."
This really says it all. Why on earth should the rest of us bleed to support jobs that even after such 'painful cuts' will still leave the auto workers amoungst the highest paid factory workers in the world. We need to give our heads a shake.
Barb
said
Mike from NS
said
gg
said
edCP
said
Brian
said
Wake Up Call
said
stan m
said
Why, Chrysler dropped 19 dollars
are you saying they now only earn 4 dollars per hour??
Drop the gas guzzler idiocy..
Why, it is time to get over 20MPG
Drop the cars nobody
OK, Refuse to Pay for anymore
Drop the cheap plastic garble.
OK< Use Better plastics
Greg - Signs and Wonder
said
KJ in Kingston Ontario
said
As someone with retirement looming in only months and no pension income to look forward to beyond CPP. I find it practically obscene that there's any consideration of government funded auto worker pension rescues. They will still get CPP!!!!!!!!
No one living without a pension should be expected to contribute even a dime of tax money toward supporting the lifestyle of someone with a pension.
the real story of union greed
said
peggy
said
Lorne
said
Greed was a big factor as well.
Pensions - when you as an individual did not contribute any monies to a pension plan, how can you be entitled to a pension?
You allowed the company to pay into the pension fund on your behalf - they blew all the monies - but the fact was it was not your money they blew. Your contribution was nil - this was all part of the lucrative contract you signed with the company.
Greed has led to the pension demise and government should not have to guarantee anything.
Gail (Hamilton)
said
I've never worked in a job where I relied on a union because in the end noone's job is forever.
The environmentalists kept pushing and still do and they too share the blame for the misfortune of the big 3. Also, the big 3 would have been able to retool just once, but they kept getting mixed messages from the US government on fuel efficient cars. This whole fiasco has left the workers with little or no room to manouvre. The provincial Liberal government will probably consider using our tax dollars for the workers' pension. After all, that's the "progressive" strategy.
Karma Calling
said
$30 / hour plus benefits is too much to put together a car on an assembly line. Especially when there are people who would be happy to do it for half that without benefits - just happy to have a job in the first place. When GM is liquidated the CAW workers are in for a rude awakening.
Temp Agent: So what experience do you have?
Former union worker: Uh - I punched rivets in a car. Sometimes they would let me put the seat in too.
Temp agent: Education?
Former union worker: uh high school. My daddy got me a job in the union so why bother gettin' educated when I would make more than most university graduates to start.
Temp agent: I see. Well I can get you in as a greeter at Wal-Mart - does $6/hour sound right to you? With some training you could probably work at McDonalds too.
Anne
said
What about Execs. Workers can't carry the load for the entire company, yes they are well paid, but they are'nt the only ones.
Paul
said
Do you really think Hargrove didn't see this coming before her retired.
Union heads in Europe require a degree in Econimics, not the bullying they have done in America to make more than Nurses do!
Linda In The Valley
said
Anti Union?
said
I was medically released fromt he Canadian Forces 3 years ago, due to wounds. I applied for a public service job that I was qualified for and although I had legal priority, the right skills, etc - the UNION nixed my job. I couldn't get a straight answer in public but in private I found out that I was on a nationwide blacklist as a strikebreaker. (!?!)
Turns out that in 1981, when the Kingston prison guards were on strike and the prisoners rioted, the civil polcie lost control of the prison. The army was called on. We restored order and turned control back over to the civil police. Seems simple enough, doesn't it. We did our duty under the law. No one knew that someonce gave the guards union all our names who them put them out to all the unions as strike breakers. Now we are all on nationwide blacklists and can never take a job in a workplace where there is a union.
Doesn't seem fair does it.
So, while I am not anti-worker, I am most certainly anti-union.
This kind of crap needs to be cleaned up and the unions made to become what they are supposed to be rather than political entities that are above the law; able to extort, threaten, and run rough-shod over everyone else.
Oh yes, i am now a medium sized business partner and every employee (23) signs a legal contract that this will remain a non-union workplace. We offer a good wage, health & dental benefits, a pension plan and even daycare. Who the hell needs a union?!
Tom Davis
Johan, Newmarket
said
I hope good sense will dominate talks between union and management. May good business principles lead discussions and enable these automakers to make a strong comeback.
Remarkable
said
GM and the Union are to blame, the shareholders can share some of the blame and I'm sure there are some more fingers that can be pointed here.
The bottom line is, they need to cut costs at every level and deep cuts at that.
If you really want to survive, you'll do whatever it has to take and I'm hoping that both sides have the guts to do it.
RVH
said
James
said
To CAW Members - add up what you spent in union dues over your years - probably would have made a nice pension in your own bank account.
Buzz fooled you all - look at his pension from the CAW - you paid for it!
Wayne a business owner...
said
Autoworker's Wife (Not GM)
said to take a scan of the paycheck. It's not the paycheck that is so much out of line it is all the benfits. The total package is over $70 per hour - wages and benefits. And these are unskilled workers. In the area I'm in, Nothern Ontario, most people are scrambling to make $20.00 wages and benefits ( $12.50 hourly wage ) and most are just as qualified to take a union persons job over at any time.
The blame is from top to bottom and has been fueled by greed for decades.
Be Responsible For Yourself!
said
My family of 4 live on a single income, we have never had the luxury of receiving an income like that of a GM employee! My husband went to college so he could earn a decent living.... but can't even make 1/2 of the GM wage with an education!
I Personally know GM workers and they have always complained about their pay being low. They are striking all the time ... demanding more... never satisfied. Sure the top guys are to blame as well for this situation, but enough IS enough! I guess GM expenses are exceeding the income. It had to happen! Thank the CAW.
All the workers who have lived so comfy on their outrageous rates of pay will now have to join us down here in the lower tax bracket. Yes, I agree it is awful to lose a job, but we have all been there. We have all struggled. I guess it will just be a little more difficult for those who have grown accustomed to top wages. GM doesn't owe anyone, you were paid well to do your job! You all should have been responsible for your own future. Have you never been told to be "diversified" in your investing/ savings? I know many seniors who struggle to get by. Do you feel sorry for them???
Too comfy for too long. Thank your union!
moe
said
Jay
said
kinger in Niagara
said
mike holdsworth
said
SGF
said
Bad buisness: Sell high, pay high, build cheap.
said
He sits in the break room most of the day selling canteen items for his own profit all day, and releaving workers once in a while that need to use the washroom.
That ammount of work is rewarded with wages and benifits in value well into the six figures. Perhaps his share of work in the company is worth over 100,000 a year.
George Henderson
said
Union workers make too much...
Trevor London,Ontario
said
toonfan
said
As they say, you make your own bed now sleep in it.
Less dealership means even higher prices for the same junk they build, can't see that being a very good plan.
A Kitchener
said
Hamish
said
Too much Blaming
Reality is that the companies are in serious trouble, regardless of what and assuming that the union and corporate can agree on something. This should not be how much can be cut, or saved, but how many jobs can be
I am not Pro Union, but, am not anti either
Many jobs rely on the ongoing income from them.
Blaming the government?
The Unions?
Well, if you want to vent!
This is a recession, everyone has to pull back
Reality
What a concept
Greg M
said
Pete, Burlington.
said
The moment that your union started demanding government intervention and subsidies for your pensions, we all were given the right to an opinion as it is our money they want to spend.
Judging from all the opinion polls and blogs out there, it seems pretty clear that there is little sympathy for these companies because most people agree that a combination of bad labour agreements, strong arm union tactics, bad management and poor product selection have simply destroyed what were once very good companies. There is little point in pumping billions of taxpayer dollars in to try and save something like this and you only need to look at the now defunct British car industry to see what happens.
In the 70's and 80's, the UK labour government supported the unions demands to save the car companies who were losing ground to overseas competitors. the unions claimed it was bad management, but continued to be unproductive and the management claimed they needed time to retool and bring better poroducts to market. The governement told the taxpayers that the industry was too important to die and pumped in hundreds of millions to save them. The end result was simply a few more years of strikes, bad products and boring news reports followed by years of debt that the taxpayers endured because they never got one penny back out of those companies.
Face the facts, these companies need to go under and restructure and we should not put one penny of taxpayers money into them.
kodiak
said
You missed what I said about collecting 2 pention checks.
The average auto worker collects 2 pention checks after retiring before passing away. Yes some live to a ripe old age but alot I see right now passing away. In our plant last 6 passed all under the age of 50.
If I was collect 2 pention checks a month I would have no right to be complaining at all and you would have every right in the world to be jumping on me.
I put my time in and we are supposted to get a pention. We can not even put in more of our money because the goverment says the company pention is worth this much and then we can top it off.
The Goverment changed the rules and allowed the Company to under fund our pention and now the goverment wants us to take a huge cut to be able to keep our jobs. So to keep our jobs we must give up our future. Yes your right that is fair. Hope you understand sarcaism
Kelly O from Med Hat
said
Ron in Brighton
said
Joeyann
said
You said it best!
To all my family and friends at the truck plant in Oshawa, The East Coast fishermen have had the rug pulled out from under them too. People really don't understand how much this is going to impact every business in and around the greater Toronto area.
We are thinking and hoping for the best for you all.
Joeyann, Halifax NS
Proud to Drive GM!
said
Ron in Brighton
said
Yes, there is injustice in the workplace.
said
Not everyone who wants to work at an auto plant for a good wage can get such a job. That's not the fault of unions.
Management incompetence is not the fault of unions.
Government and corporate interests want to impoverish the working class. That's not the fault of unions.
You got problems in your workplace? You need a union.
Union bashing doesn't help any worker, even those workers who do not belong to unions.
Brett from Windsor
said
Frank Van Roessel Jr. 28 years senority. GM Oshawa
said