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Vince Li not criminally responsible for beheading
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Thu. Mar. 5 2009 9:47 PM ET
Vince Li has been found not criminally responsible for the gruesome murder and beheading of Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus last summer because he is mentally ill.
"These grotesque acts are appalling," Justice John Scurfield said in Thursday's ruling. "However, the acts themselves and the context in which they were committed are strongly suggestive of a mental disorder.
"He did not appreciate the act he committed was morally wrong. He believed he was acting in self defence and that he had been commanded by God to do so."
Both the Crown and the defence agreed that Li is a schizophrenic who was suffering a psychotic episode when he killed the 22-year-old McLean.
Li, 40, will now be remanded to a secure psychiatric facility where he will receive treatment. A review panel will decide in the next six weeks which facility he will be transferred to, depending on whether he is considered a risk to others or to himself.
His case must also be reviewed on an annual basis by a mental health review board.
"That doesn't sit well with McLean's family," reports CTV's Jill Macyshon, who says they want Li to spend his life in prison, demanding "a life for a life."
The review board will look at police reports from the crime scene and review transcripts of previous hearings, while also listening to evidence from psychiatrists who will treat Li about his current mental condition, treatment plan and prognosis.
"The public needs to know that when a person is found not criminally responsible, it does not automatically follow that a person will be released into the community," Scurfield said in his ruling "People who are found not criminally responsible but who continue to pose a danger to the community may be kept in a locked institution for the rest of their lives."
Li's trial took only two days and heard from only two witnesses. Both were psychiatrists who testified Li suffers from schizophrenia. They testified Li heard what he thought was the voice of God last July, telling him to kill McLean or risk being killed himself.
Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg said Li was psychotic and was in no state to tell the difference between right and wrong.
"The attack was sudden and came as Li caught a glimpse of the sunlight and heard God's voice telling him that McLean was a threat," Rootenberg testified. "The voice said, `Do it now ... If you don't, he's going to kill you.'"
Legal analyst and criminal lawyer Steven Skurka says the decision shows that the Canadian criminal justice system is humane and recognizes that those in psychotic states cannot distinguish right and wrong.
"We can't simply look at the actions we have to look at his mental state. We don't punish people who don't appreciate the nature and quality of their actions. I think that's a very positive feature of our system," Skurka told CTV Newsnet after the decision was handed down.
No criminal record
With the NCR declaration, Li will not have a criminal record. But on the agreement of both the Crown and the defence, his DNA will be put into a registry so that it will be on file in the event Li is one day released and is suspected of another crime.
"It's a responsible position for the defence to take because clearly, they're concerned about public safety," Slurka said.
While the McLean family knew to expect Thursday's ruling, McLean's mother Carol deDelley says she will push forward with what she calls "Tim's Law."
She wants those who are found to be not criminally responsible to have criminal records and to be treated in prison not in a mental facility.
DeDelley told reporters outside the courthouse Thursday that NCR should be changed to what she calls "NPA."
"That would be Not Psychologically Accountable but still criminally responsible. Because a crime was still committed her, a murder still occurred. And NCR seems to negate that fact. At least that's how it feels to us, "she said.
She also wondered why Li, who was born in China, was granted citizenship even after he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia.
DeDelley added she doesn't hate Li; she thinks he's dangerous and should be "kept away from the public for the rest of his natural life."
Spotlight on mental illness
The Li case has brought mental illness, particularly schizophrenia, into the national headlines and some psychologists say the trial has reinforced the stigma attached to mental illness.
Annette Osted of the College of Registered Nurses of Manitoba told CTV Winnipeg that its time to stop blaming Li and start searching for answers about what went wrong in the health system.
"His illness, left untreated, caused this horrific event. Now why was it left untreated?" she asked. "That's a factor . . . we have to look at as a society."
Dr. Richard Shore says that schizophrenics have more to fear from society than vice versa. He said the majority of people with the illness do not act violently.
"It's rare for schizophrenics to express outward aggression," he told CTV Winnipeg. "They are usually more isolated."
Mary Alberti, of the Schizophrenia Society of Ontario said on CTV Newsnet Thursday that "With 'Tim's law', we understand why the family would take that viewpoint but we also know based on experience at the schizophrenia society . . . that the outcomes with treatment can be very good."
"With proper treatment, Mr. Li, will have greater insight into his disease, but having said that we have to remember schizophrenia and psychosis are characterized by having a lack of insight that they are ill," she said. "But with proper treatment and support, we believe people can recover from schizophrenia."
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I applaud the budget, even though Health Care and education may stay unscathed. Sadly this cannot last and I worry to later this year where cuts will become enviable. If anything, this provides the Wildrose Alliance plenty of ammo when an election is called.


Comments are now closed for this story
Lisa Toronto
said
KT
said
My heart goes out to you, I hope you win your fight to pass "Tim's law".
AMM in SK.
said
I imagine that the family of Tim is sick. And they should be. Hearts go out to them.
Jason
said
Aaron
said
On a side-note, this is why we need capital punishment reinstated in this country. Dangerous and violent criminals can be eliminated at little cost to taxpayers as opposed to the immense cost of psychological therapy, which is not 100% guaranteed and often ineffective.
leslie in SK
said
will
said
calgarian
said
John
said
Our justice system has let us down again and again!
Art in Alberta
said
This man killed another person by cutting off his head. Then he paraded inside the bus holding the head like a trophy; and people wonder if he will be a danger should he be released from the mental institute? He should be treated for his mental instabilities inside a prison, not a hospital.
It is disgusting how Li's mental pitfalls are being put ahead of justice for his victim.
Jeff from Alberta
said
JP
said
Lynn
said
Al from BC
said
Timothy
said
A sad day for justice in Canada.
NotQuickToJudge
said
Here are the facts.
THE CROWN AND DEFENCE both agreed that he was psychotic. and in this country, if there is reasonable grounds that the defendant was 'in a different world' and hearing voices, the nhe is not criminaly responsible for murder.
I feel so sad for both families involved. And unfortunately in China, mental health problems are regarded in many cases as a crime, and mentally ill people are jailed for life when they didn't do anything wrong. So in essence, Canada is better off for the laws we have in place.
I think if this man has a history of mental health issues, we should look at what could have been done to prevent the crime. There must have been 'signs' way before what happened that showed he was not all there.
anyways, do i think he should go to jail? NO, he obviously was psychologicaly ill. I do think he should pend a good part of his life in a psych ward where he can get the help he needs.
Karen in Calgary
said
Vikki F
said
cm in barrie
said
The man is sick with no question - but it seems that he will be getting off a little too easy since medication can lessen his troubles.
My heart goes out to Tim's family and keep pressing "Tim's Law".
The other Lowell in BC
said
Mike
said
Cory Gower
said
Edwin, Kelowna
said
Yes, he killed a person - someone my age - and that act is a heinous one, but he doesn't deserve life in prison or execution as some of you wannabe Texans have called for. He deserves to be placed in an institution where he can receive treatment for his illness.
Some of you feel that this is a failure of our justice system; to those of you I say: fine, you don't like it, leave. go to the US where they kill those who are mentally retarded. Calls for this sort of vengeance are sick. You claim to be outraged that a man murdered another person, then you turn around and advocate his murder in turn. Your hypocrisy is blinding.
Adam Wolfe
said
Not only that according to reports and witnesses, Li also tried go after others and made an attempt to escape. I'd like to see the Psychiatrists try to explain all that away.
Either way there is no way that I would believe anyone not finding Li a danger to society for the rest of his life. If they do I hope they are prepared for a wrongful death suit - if he is ever let out.
bob
said
Although I sympathize with the family, I don't believe Mr. Li should be sent to prison. He needs to be placed in a secure mental hospital where he will receive the help that he needs.
Furthermore, having seen how difficult it was for my brother to gain release from a secure mental facility, I can assure people that Mr. Li will probably spend the rest of his life in hospital under extremely close supervision.
Gerald from Belleville
said
Having been deemed NCR due to mental illness, he should not have a criminal record. However, his DNA, fingerprints, and a photograph should be entered on CPIC (the national police criminal record database) and it should indicate that he is a violent man with a serious mental illness.
He should not go to prison: he is mentally ill. As such, he should be placed in a high security mental facility where he would get treatment. However, he should never be allowed out UNLESS he can prove without the shadow of a doubt that he is no longer a threat. This means what is called a reverse onus: he would have to prove he is "healed" and no longer a threat to the same degree a prosecutor would have to prove someone is guilty in court. Which means that all the state has to do to keep him in a mental institute is cast doubt (not prove!) to a review committee that he might still be a danger. Burden of proof would be exclusively on him: presumably he would have to provide hard evidence (good conduct, successful education, several psych reports, medical follow-ups and documented history, etc...) he is no longer a threat. Otherwise, he should not be let out. This way would ensure public safety while recognizing that he has a mental problem.
James
said
This man will never be a free man. He will not be put into a cushy minimum security medical facility because of the horrific nature of his crime. The distinction between him serving out his life in a jail or hospital is just semantics. But you want it to be jail to make yourselves feel better.
I'm sure the life sentence this man has to suffer through the demons in his own head are much worse than any jail cell.
Nothing will bring back Tim. Don't believe for a second anyone is doing anything for Tim. They're doing it out of their own need for vengeance.
Randy
said
T from NB
said
AMM does have the facts straight. It says right in the news article. They found him not criminally responsible, it also says in the article, since he is not criminally responsible, he will not have a criminal record. Reed the story before you criticise what others post.
Timothy
said
the article states: "on the agreement of both the Crown and the defence, his DNA will be put into a registry so that it will be on file in the event Li is one day released and is suspected of another crime."
Why o why are we leaving this scenario open to happen!? He could get "treatment", so-called "cured" and 10 years from now when he refuses to take his meds one day he goes and has another "episode". You want the victim to be someone you love Edwin from Kelowna? Quit twisting this into something about revenge, this is to ensure this doesn't happen again. Shame on all of you who support these misguided legal decisions!
DF
said
I honestly cannot see how these so called judges can live with themselves.
My heart goes out to the family
Lorne
said
However, the Justice system did work in this case, as Li is mentally incompetent.
I do feel that Li should never be released into society and that he remain institutionalized for the remainder of his life.
His medical condition was known for a long time, by Canadian authorities and family members.
If this is not satisfactory, then return him to his country of origin.
This individual will continue to be a threat to society, irregardless of the type of medication he might receive.
Monica in Manitoba
said
He did it he was the only one who did it...that should be the end of it....why cant he see a doctor while serving a prison sentence?? I live here in manitoba and will never ride a greyhound bus again!!!!! since the message seems to be go ahead do the crime then just say that you are mentally challenged...way to go Canada
TM
said
Jimmy B - Perth Ontario
said
That said, he is now and always will be a threat to innocent mankind and he should NEVER be released to public domain again. It is so very unfortunate that an innocent,kind human being had to lose his precious life to such a sick monster. My sincerest sympathy goes out to his loved ones. I have lost a brother to a cowardly act, while not so brutal, he met with the same demise. Remember the good times.
d hanlon
said
There is no justice if this man is set free ever again, but with this verdict he has been given a chance to be set free in the future.
Karen
said
Defenders of Li talk about humanity. To those people I ask...where's the humanity in what was done to Mr. McLean?
Karen, Toronto
S in S
said
Les
said
Ridiculous.
Mike
said
fitzz
said
LaLa
said
The experts have all agreed that Li was in a completely psychotic state when he committed this absolutely horrific act, and is thus NCR.
I agree that a SECURE psychiatric facility is the best place for him, though I would like to see him have to stay there for the rest of his life, not as "punishment," per se, but as a means of protecting the public from the possibility that he should ever have one of these psychotic "episodes" again.
sandy
said
Gerald from Belleville
said
In the current system, not only does a guy like him not get a criminal record, if he is deemed "rehabilitated" by doctors he WILL be let out. This could technically happen in 1 year, and might be expected to happen in the next 10 or 15.
I'm aware of a case (no names, no places) where this happened: I knew the person directly (not a friend, a colleague). She was in her early 20s, and we all knew she had serious problems. She had no sense of right or wrong beyond "if I do this someone will hurt me", and while she was always full of energy and always smiled, she placed no value on human life. Example: people die in an accident, she laughs (genuinely) and comments on how funny it is when pavement gets colored red when people lose their heads. Her mother had been stating that she was unhappy and wanted to do some life changes.
One night, the person in question walked into her mother's bedroom and shot her in the face with a rifle, killing her. She then joyfully informed police (and all of us later) that it made sense and she had just given her mother a life change.
She was placed in a mental institute. She was released 12 months later, deemed rehabilitated and no longer a threat. I haven't seen her since, but people I know have and they say the scary part is she hasn't changed. She has openly stated that she was right and would do it again.
Sadly, this isn't an urban legend. I know the people involved. Some of my friends visited her in the institute.
Confused
said
WJ in Edmonton
said
The only thing I can think of is that if both sides stipulated that he was responsible for the killing then the only issue was whether he would be potentially sent to prison. If he was found responsible, there was no way that he could have claimed that he was not guilty of the murder. The issue in this case was not guilt vs. non-guilt, just whether or not he was criminally responsible. I can't offer an opinion on the verdict as I'm torn in both directions. It's a sad day nonetheless.
Dave in Calgary
said
This family and society deserve to know that this creature will never hurt another being.
We have gotten way too forgiving and understanding. I myself have suffered several bouts of mental illness. I take responsibility for getting care. If I were a danger, I would want the safety of society to come before my right to the most normal life I can have.
Compassion is fine, but common sense needs to prevail.
I don't really think Tim's law (from what I know of it) is the right tool. A new version is needed that addresses this trial's outcome and the need to put society and victims first.
Becky of Calgary AB
said
Certainly not much justice here. It's bad enough losing a son but for 'nothing'? Horrors! I won't be riding a bus anytime soon.
Rick in NB
said
It can still happen to you. You don't have to be born with it. If it does and you have no sensible judgement left, then you do something outside of the law. I hope you still feel so disgusted!
Nancy in Sask
said
I realize that this man was mentally ill when he committed this horrific crime,and needs to be treated in a hospital. This should be a hospital for the criminally insane and he should remain there till the day he dies. The way the law is now we could all go out and commit crimes and either plead insanity or you were too drunk and didn't know what you were doing.It is utter nonsense!
Regardless of his mental state this man killed another human being and that should never be forgotten or absolved from his record.He will never be able to be responsible enough to be trusted to take medications for his conditions and the probablity of him reoffending is extreme.
My heart goes out to the family and wish them well in getting the government to listen to reason.
Rosalie Hodson
said
Frank in Winnipeg
said
Dwayne Chomyn
said
Charlie
said
BB
said
When someone feeds them self on junk and evil they will be that also. It takes a conscience decision to feed on evil. There for the out come back to that person should be consiquently inherient. This person will continue this way. Unless what he feeds himself on is changed. My heart goes out to the family of Tim. Hoping you find piece in God.
Kieran
said
Those who have been sent away for psychological reasons often spend much more time incarcerated than those found guilty. Also, sentencing someone to death actually costs much more than having someone behind bars, though neither are very effective. I am so sick and tired of the uninformed right (such as our prime minister) giving their naive opinions.
Shocked in NL
said
Does Canada's justice system even exist??? I'm shocked and sickened.
My heart goes out to the McLean family.
Doug
said
Rob in On
said
I still hope he never see's the light of day again!
nc
said
Welcome to Wonderland. Some of you may recall this short lived cbc show.
Shawna
said
nc
said
But you get my gist.
Doug BC
said
And also, by an immigration system that granted him citizenship AFTER he was diagnosed as someone with schizophrenia.
Blatant Liberalism and our bleeding heart mentality will lead to the destruction of what was once a fairly safe and just society.
One has to wonder how far justice and immigration have to fall before citizens begin to take their own actions against those who commit these outrageous and violent crimes.At some point I expect citzens to decide that,if our government won't act to protect our people,we will have to do it for ourselves.
You think this is bad?? It can get a lot worse if we don't elect people with the stomach to incarcerate some offenders,and deny status in Canada to those who are likely to be a burden to our society.
beverly - lethbridge
said
When they are medicated, all is right with the world (for the most part)- they begin to feel normal, happy and productive and VERY often, then discontinue their medications as they feel no further benefits are required. It is the base nature of the condition.
The condition then comes on again not with a bang, but slowly so that they do not appreciate the difference in their actions and reactions to various stimuli.
There is absolutely NO reason why this man could not be treated in prison. It is just not convenient to the prison system to do so and that places the onus for public safety on the family of victims to continue to fight the offenders release into society.
A Sad Sad day for Tim's family and our hearts are broken for them all.
This is unjust
said
Tarah
said
Karen in Calgary
said
Why are people so anxious for people like Li to be returned to society? Most would puke if he moved in next door to them. I would be more than happy to see my tax dollars go to housing him in a comfortable room in a facility (I don't care if it's not a jail.) where he can be monitored and receive medication to keep him stable, be given the necessities of life, pursue a hobby, and make friends with others receiving the same care in the institution "community" while living out his days, just so long as he is kept off the streets for good, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Some people like Li are proven to be defective and thinking that medication can solve everything is putting way too much faith in a few pills.
bob
said
Anything else is insufficient.
Jim from Toronto
said
On a side note, who in the world would want to join the RCMP or any other Canadian police force after observing this ruling on such a terrible crime? Our police officers are out there risking their lives trying to catch criminals, and yet when these criminals finally show up in court, they get a slap on the rist. If I were a police officer watching this I would turn in my badge. It's not worth risking one's life to watch a criminal get off so easily.
Shannon
said
So sad for Tim Mclean's family... another person let down by this weak justice system.
Samantha from Ottawa
said
This judgement is so disappointing, this family had their son taken from them and this man is not going to jail! My heart truly goes out to his family, I cannot imagine the struggle they are facing.
Plus, even IF this man is sitting in an institution for the rest of his life so the public is kept safe- that just means that we, as law-abiding citizens are paying for this man to be there! Maybe some may find me insenstive, but why pay SO MUCH money for all of these murderers to live when clearly they took that away from someone else and their family and friends!?
I agree with Aaron's comment that "this is why we need capital punishment reinstated in this country." I would never want to know this man, or any like him is on the street around my children. Maybe meds will help him, but why take the chance that one day he decides not to take them and this happens again, those that helped him get out of his respondsibilities this time should be ashamed of their role helping a killer get free.
Don
said
Michaela from Montreal
said
Katie K
said
SL
said
On the comment regarding why he obtained citizenship even though he had Schizophrenia is quite prejudice. Just because you have a mental health diagnosis, does not mean you cannot be a fully functional person. That means anyone with Depression, Anxiety, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, could potentially be denied citizenship - that's not Canadian or humane.
On the comment about being treated in Prison, not a mental health facility - that's a stupid response. There are trained professionals in a mental health facility, not a prison, for example, access to RNs, Occupational Therapists, Psychologists, etc.
Although I feel horrible for the family's loss (as any loss would be difficult) - they do not know what it's like to have a mental health condition.
The Other Lowell in BC
said
Linda in Vancouver
said
I know what schizophrenia is "Al".Your suggestion that only "intelligent" people have a say in creating the laws in Canada is completely over the line,and an blatant insult to "intelligent" people who believe this man should not have been admitted to Canada in the first place.
Your charge that only "ignorant" people would have this view makes your own credibility questionable.
Where is the "benefit to Canada" in importing more problems,when we have yet to manage the mental health issues of citizens already living here?? Are we to be the dumping ground for the mentally ill that other nations want to be rid of??
Roy in Toon Town
said
AndyL
said
Justine
said
MuskyBuck
said
He'll be a drooling slipper wearing zombie, despite the fact he won't be recieving a criminal record.
That doesn't lesson the pain but most should be made aware this character has a history of mental illness and will be considered a danger to himself and others for life.
He'll come up for evaluation and he won't ever pass because his file will always be flagged.
John
said
Does this not lend to the fact that it was pre-meditated act?? He may be sick but he planned this! God didn't tell him squat. I think he should get his treatment in a jail cell that he shares with a cellmate twice his size for the rest of his life. It is clearly time for change in this country for our leaders have failed us terribly in so many ways. What - have we got lower occupancy at the hospitals than the jails? Is this about job security in the hospitals? God knows your gonna need about 100 staffers to keep this dude in line. BIG QUESTION - What message does this send to the next killer out there? And please, please when you let em out - keep him out of the Hammer
DS in Labrador
said
AMM
said
I got the facts... right from this story. Did you not read it? The story states the following..
'With the NCR declaration, Li will not have a criminal record.'
Thanks for paying attention Jeff from AB
Gabriel, Ontario
said
did something this horrible is insane, they should be dealt with but not with all the precision of a lynch mob. I do hope and think that Mr. Li will spend the rest of his life in a mental institution because i think he will always be deemed a threat to the public. For all the people who make it sound that anyone can claim to be crazy to get out of a crime. You are very naive, hearing voices from god that command you to kill would be the most horrible thing i could imagine and I am sure that being in the mind of a Schizophrenic is more punishment than our courts are capable of dealing. My heart still goes out to family for there horrible loss but my mind stays with the law.
Penny
said
Mentally retarded is someone who is mentally developing slower than the average person. Mr. Li is schizophrenic. Not the same thing. I believe he should NEVER have freedom again. I'm not clear on what happens with people who suffer from schizophrenia. However, my concern is that he will commit another act of violence in the future. Having DNA on file is not going to comfort the family of the next victim! Since Li is divorced and hasn't been in Canada much of his life... who is responsible for keeping an eye on him if he ever is free again?
Jenn from Mississauga
said
elephunt
said
Matt in London
said
People who advocate throwing him in jail don't understand the founding principles of our criminal justice system. Seriously, this is Law 101 stuff - you don't convict people on actus reus alone.
Difficult, but correct verdict
said
For those of you who have never had to deal with someone with mental illness, you have no idea... I mean absolutely NO CLUE, of how extremely difficult and heartbreaking it can be for everyone. These are wounds that can neither be seen with the eye nor healed with a bandage or a cast, but they are very real and disabling. I will never condone what happened and I believe that Mr Li be locked away for a very long time until it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is healed. My crystal ball says that his condition is indeed permanent and he will never be free of his prison, either real or perverbial.
Yes, this was an emotionally difficult verdict but the correct one and the best one to take.
To you people who think that taking a human life in revenge for the loss of another life is the right thing to do: I say quit your job, sell your house and kiss all of your family goodbye and move into a cave where all prehistoric savages belong. We hammer on other countries who still practice capital punishment, and yet you want to see Mr Li die and have yet another family suffer?? Hasn't there already been enough sadness and mourning? Your revenge and vengeance mentality is insulting to the rest of us who walk upright. Two wrongs can never ever make a right!
Grow up and move beyond the eye for an eye mentality! Think big picture here, people! This is the very thing that is anchoring down the human ace from progressing to something more mature and respectable.
Ivy Chau
said
Sam Sweiti
said
Yes, he is mentally challenged but he should have an on book criminal record and should be locked for life in a facility that can handle his special needs.
I sincerely feel sorry for the McLean's loss.
Katie K
said
Doug
said
Andy H
said
Karen in Calgary
said
Exactly what "treatment" for mental illness is available that would have prevented an incident like this one that you think Tim McLean's family should just "accept", and how do you know that it was not tried? Pills for everyone? Talking it out for $100 an hour?
Ben Hanhart
said
Kim
said
Mike in NS
said
Now all the people in full support of the verdict...he said he was 'suddenly' told by God to kill Tim. That does not explain 1) Why he was on the bus, 2) he had a knife. This all seems premeditated to me.
Laurel
said
Mike Pinot from Calgary
said
Margaret in Bowmanville
said
My deepest sympathy to the family of Tim. God Bless them.
JEP
said
Mark
said
Louise McNamara, Sudbury
said
Dave in BC
said
Carol K.
said
Can someone please tell me why this man had a knife on him? What size was the knife?
(As to his illness, I think he needs treatment and permanent incarceration).
Thanks,
Fred - Brandon MB
said
This man is an obvious danger to the community of he goes off his meds. He should remain institutionalized for the rest of his life for public safety. In reality, he will be back on the streets in a few years or as little as a few months.
The other problem I have with this verdict is that upon his arrest he expressed remorse and asked the RCMP to kill him. So even in his psychotic state he knew what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway.
The verdict should have been GUILTY
Mike Stephenson Crescent Valley
said
Regarding the point that he may be considered "safe to be released" at some point; well, if that occurs, then he should start serving a full sentence for murder.
Susan - Fredericton
said
Wayne
said
He should remain in a mental institution for the rest of his life
tc
said
Daniel
said
Heart goes out to the family, but thats just my two cents.
PB - Toronto
said
Ken
said
R Eddy in NB
said
Concerned Canadian
said
In our system, to be criminally responsible requires two things: mens rhea (capacity) and actus reus an actual act). Mens rhea means that you must have had the intent to commit the crime to be held criminally responsible. Mentally challenged people, children, and the mentally ill cannot form intent. Therefore they cannot be held criminally responsible. That is why this person will not have a criminal record, and why he cannot be held responsible for what he did.
Further, the cost of capital punishment is far greater than the cost of life-long incarceration or psychiatric help. Calls for the reinstatement of the death penalty on those grounds are merely indicative of a deep ignorance of the economic facts.
But who in their right minds thinks that it's ethically acceptable to kill mentally ill people anyway? What's next, public executions? Burning at the stake? Public hanging of children? What this guy did was gruesome- but he is sick. He needs help, not vindictive punishment.
VIC
said
Victim and Victim's family who will care? Stupid lawmakers!
Canada is definitely not a fair country and We do hope Tim McLean will have fair share in heaven!
Murray @Cobourg
said
Bob
said
AndyL
said
Niagara George
said
From people I know who have children who are schnizophrenic, one of two things happen when they stop their medication. Either they commit suicide or they commit a horrid crime.
Both have happened in my circle of acquaintances. For society, the unfortunate part is that in neither case is the ill person held responsible.
It one case they have died and so their torment has ended. In the other, the courts are willing to excuse the behaviour.
One of the reasons for sending criminals to jail, is to set an example for others thinking of commiting the same crime.
In the case of schnizophrenic individuals, Mr. Li's outcome tells the next person that it is okay to stop their medication. No matter what they do after stopping, they will not be responsible.
Most schnizophrenic individuals are fine when they are on their meds. Once they feel 'normal' it is easy to think they no longer need the medication. Where we fail these people is that society does nothing to encourage they continue trreatment.
Steve Edmonton
said
Even though I never knew Tim, this event affected me greatly. My thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.
Michelle
said
I feel for the family but the desire for revenge is not an acceptable reason to deny Mr.Li freedom if and when he regains his mental health through treatment and demonstrates that he is no longer a threat to society. Tim's Law should simply be a change in law that makes lifetime supervision by a health professional mandatory for people with such a history of violence while suffering from mental health problems.
Keith in Brampton
said
Further, if he - or anyone else found NCR - are released and they commit further acts for which they are found to be NCR, I believe the officials who released that individual should be required to serve the time the offender would have served if found responsible and guilty.
Society needs to be properly and permanently protected from the criminally insane.
Thomas
said
Dale
said
Ben, Edmonton
said
Of course what happened is sickening and terrible. However, if you think that this man's actions, noting that he was unable to control them, are punishable, then you are essentially an advocate of punishing the mentally ill for being mentally ill. In a case like this, your gut reaction shouldn't be to get hot and bothered and cause an uproar about how this guy isn't being punished. Rather, you should be considering the stigmas regarding mental health issues and how perhaps helping people would be better than demonizing them.
Kevin
said
Janine in Salmon Arm
said
allison toronto
said
'If you suffer people to be ill-educated and their manners corrupted from infancy and then punish them for which their 1st education disposed them, what else is to be concluded,that you first make thieves and then punish them.'
-Utopia
cheryl
said
Li is indeed mentally ill and it would serve no benefit to put him in jail BUT... serious flaws with committing him to a psychiatric facility too. I worry about potential release once he is deemed well enough. The thing that troubles me is that there were warning signs leading up to this tragedy and nothing was done then. It wasn't until he had a psychotic episode that panic ensued. What if upon release, he simply stops taking his meds??? He should NEVER be let out. I also have to admit that it annoys me that taxpayers have to pay to keep him off the streets and in doing so, allow him to receive better care than most. He will have a clean residence, 3 meals and basic necessities. ONLY IN CANADA...sigh!
shayne gregoire
said
I do not think thats this justifies such an act, if the guy doesnt think that what he did is wrong, that doesnt make him mentally insane, it just makes him pure evil.
I know what losing a loved one is like and if this happened to me too I would be hardpressed to accept the verdict aswell.
Cody-BDN,MB
said
saskprincess
said
Solace
said
Alison
said
Rob
said
Steve in Toronto
said
1) people who are found "not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder" often spend as much as double the amount of time in psychiatric facilities than they ever would have in jail. In this case, a conviction for second-degree murder would have entailed a minimum of 10-years without the possibility of parole. It seems likely that Vince Li will spend much more than 10 years in a psychiatric hospital.
2) to establish the defence of insanity, it is not sufficient for the accused to just be "ill." His illness must have prevented him from comprehending the difference between right and wrong. This is extremely difficult to establish. The insanity defence almost always fails. Li must be well and truly insane for the prosecution to actually concede the point.
Right thing to DO!
said
Agreeable however I wish they change law just little bit to ensure that Judge has power to impose life setence upon any mental challanged individuals to mental hospital for rest of their natural life.
That I agree to...
Colin, from Quebec
said
Belinda from Miramichi, New Brunswick
said
Jeff Smith
said
Evan C from Regina
said
PH from Edmonton
said
This type of defence can be difficult to debate, as there is no "medical test" to verify such a defence. For these reasons, I feel that the court's decision should include a mandatory-time to be spent in such a rehabilitation facility. This mandatory time should be comparable to the time a mentally-healthy person would spend in a prison, only that this time can be spent in a mental instuition.
In other words, if the crowne would impose "x" amount of years if Mr. Yi for the intentional murder of an innocent man, that same amount of time must be spent at this mental instuition.
green
said
JD in Alberta
said
Another gutless verdict, by another gutless judge. With laws made by bleeding heart liberals. Bring back the death penalty. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life.
SW in Alberta
said
Daniel
said
M. Yates
said
I have a brother-in-law who is schizophrenic, who spent time in Penetang because of a rape. The time spent there hasn't really changed him at all. He got his 3 meals a day, got his meds, and because of that, was fairly lucid most of the time,but it hasn't helped the victim to get over the ordeal. Too much time and money is spent on "incarcerating" the perpetrator, but what about some help for the victim?
Zilch..they are on their own.
What a great system of so-called justice we have here in Canada.
Don in Calgary
said
I tell you what when these "experts" say he's fit to re-enter society, I nominate YOU to be his caregiver, You have this poor misunderstood soul live in your home 24-7. have him share a room with your kids.
Bleeding hearts make me sick.
Nicole from Surrey
said
Rhonda, Vancouver
said
L. Yates
said
If they get out of hand, what about putting them in solitary confinement?
Are we afraid they are suffering, so we don't want to inflict any more "pain" on them?
What about the pain the victim's family is suffering?
God I hate our system!!!
Deb
said
Denise
said
iBelle
said
i agree with the decision. Based on his past history, hes never been a violent person. With his medical condition he could not of determined what was right or wrong."
I'm not sure I understand. If we looked at all first crimes in this light, no first offenses would ever be punished. Li hacked the head off a complete stranger and ate bits of him. How is this NOT a violent act?
My heart goes out to the family and friends of Tim McLean. There is no justice. Li will get assessed, thrown some meds and eventually be sent off into society. Hopefully Li will be monitored for the rest of his life and stay on his medication. This would be best for him and for us. However, I suspect that the system will fail(again).
Eric
said
I give credit to the family for trying to find a solution where Li is held criminally responsible and serve a definite jail term for murder, even though he was determined insane and requiring treatment.
What would be wrong with a DEFINED term in a mental institution?
Allowing for the possibility of release in the short term seems completely wrong, given the severity of the crime.
He should have a DEFINED time where he CANNOT have the opportunity to re-enter the community.
Surely his rehabilitation can be assumed to take some time (10 years?)
How secure is this institution? How do we know he won't get away?
Also, the goal of this mental help will be to make him better. If he is capable of getting better, doesn't that assume some CAPACITY to reason and feel remorse?!
Didn't he feel immediate remorse right after the crime? How can he be said not to have a sense of right and wrong?
All around, this decision seems totally wrong. Can't we lock him up FOR A DEFINED TIME and treat him too?
Why make the family go through annual hearings...why even allow the POSSIBILITY for release in the short term?!
Cameron
said
Linda Kulferst
said
mountain man
said
JRH from LA
said
Dani - Alberta
said
I guess the bottom line is, stick to flying, at least there you know the guy beside you doesn't have a knife.
A serious reform is needed of our justice system.
rose
said
As for you who are asking why Li had a knife and plastic bags and as such the act must have been premeditated I can only say that a psychotic episode is not necessarily "losing control for a moment" but probably had been haunting him for a longer period of time. When the voices he heard, which by the way for a schizophrenic are very real, he believed he needed to have certain items with him.
Mental Illness is very difficult for many to understand, but please try to understand that the correct decision was made in the light of justice.
Justice is not Vengeance.
mel
said
Meghan Manitoba
said
d webb
said
Ricky
said
christa
said
Carolyn Moo-Young
said
This 1% of the population with this mental illness cause taxpayers tons of money in social services, police calls, court cases etc.
They are sick but think they are normal and that we are sick.
The judicial system protects them as one would protect a "child" who doesn't know what he/she is doing.
Well, they don't.
But children have parents who are held responsible. So, who do we hold responsible for this murder?
I blame the laws that allow us to be at risk without knowing the risk.
Does this make sense?
When will the laws change to protect the public?
"They" are protected with OUR taxpayer money, they cause us great financial, mental and physical harm, and then they are "not guilty" because they don't know what they are doing.
So how about treating them like they don't know what they are doing and just allow the rest of us, who know what we are doing, to protect ourselves against them that have sudden changes of behavior when they experience mental hallucinations and act upon them.
THE PUBLIC SHOULD NEVER BE AT RISK.
TAXPAYERS PAY FOR PROTECTION
TAXPAYERS DESERVE PROTECTION
Get it? I KNOW that my ex is capable of doing what Vince Li did and I CANNOT protect anyone against him. He is allowed to live the way he chooses.
Should he have that right???
Should he have the same rights as "normal" persons? He poses a risk that a "normal" person does not pose just by his mental condition.
BIG QUESTION.
PTOL
said
Inga
said
Kevin in Winnipeg
said
There is still time to call on His Name(JESUS)
said
Isabelle Montreal
said
FALACY: It is the person who kills.
TRUTH: It is not the person but the illness and its chemical dysfunctions that kill. This is the very reason why the justice system is set up the way that it is.
By educating the public about mental illnes, it will bring more understanding and less hate towards a man who is getting the help he needs.
Denise - Western BC
said
paul
said
first, someone noted here he had the foresight to bring plastic bags. Something else no one noted here was that he also had the foresight to bring a over-sized knife with him on the bus.
second, after decapitating the victim he parades it around like a trophy
third, maybe we should remember, during the incident itself, he tried to escape after killing Tim Mclean.
Was he sick yes, yes he was. Is he sick, yes he is. However, to sit there and not apply criminal liability at least to some degree is just insulting. There is no justice in that verdict.
I don't know if prison is a realistic option but he did show premeditation why this is ignored is frankly apalling.