CTV News | Vince Li not criminally responsible for beheading

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Vince Li not criminally responsible for beheading

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CTV News: Jill Macyshon with the family's reaction
CTV Winnipeg: Kelly Dehn on the verdict that leaves Vince Li without a criminal record
CTV Winnipeg: Marni Kagan with one psychiatrist who says the stigma of mental illness tends to get aggravated when cases like this arise
CTV Newsnet: Mary Alberti, Schizophrenia Society of Ontario, on Li's reported symptoms such as halluciantions and hearing voices
CTV Newsnet: CTV legal analyst Steven Skurka on the ruling and the terms under which Vince Li is likely to be held

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CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Thu. Mar. 5 2009 9:47 PM ET

Vince Li has been found not criminally responsible for the gruesome murder and beheading of Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus last summer because he is mentally ill.

"These grotesque acts are appalling," Justice John Scurfield said in Thursday's ruling. "However, the acts themselves and the context in which they were committed are strongly suggestive of a mental disorder.

"He did not appreciate the act he committed was morally wrong. He believed he was acting in self defence and that he had been commanded by God to do so."

Both the Crown and the defence agreed that Li is a schizophrenic who was suffering a psychotic episode when he killed the 22-year-old McLean.

Li, 40, will now be remanded to a secure psychiatric facility where he will receive treatment. A review panel will decide in the next six weeks which facility he will be transferred to, depending on whether he is considered a risk to others or to himself.

His case must also be reviewed on an annual basis by a mental health review board.

"That doesn't sit well with McLean's family," reports CTV's Jill Macyshon, who says they want Li to spend his life in prison, demanding "a life for a life."

The review board will look at police reports from the crime scene and review transcripts of previous hearings, while also listening to evidence from psychiatrists who will treat Li about his current mental condition, treatment plan and prognosis.

"The public needs to know that when a person is found not criminally responsible, it does not automatically follow that a person will be released into the community," Scurfield said in his ruling "People who are found not criminally responsible but who continue to pose a danger to the community may be kept in a locked institution for the rest of their lives."

Li's trial took only two days and heard from only two witnesses. Both were psychiatrists who testified Li suffers from schizophrenia. They testified Li heard what he thought was the voice of God last July, telling him to kill McLean or risk being killed himself.

Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg said Li was psychotic and was in no state to tell the difference between right and wrong.

"The attack was sudden and came as Li caught a glimpse of the sunlight and heard God's voice telling him that McLean was a threat," Rootenberg testified. "The voice said, `Do it now ... If you don't, he's going to kill you.'"

Legal analyst and criminal lawyer Steven Skurka says the decision shows that the Canadian criminal justice system is humane and recognizes that those in psychotic states cannot distinguish right and wrong.

"We can't simply look at the actions we have to look at his mental state. We don't punish people who don't appreciate the nature and quality of their actions. I think that's a very positive feature of our system," Skurka told CTV Newsnet after the decision was handed down.

No criminal record

With the NCR declaration, Li will not have a criminal record. But on the agreement of both the Crown and the defence, his DNA will be put into a registry so that it will be on file in the event Li is one day released and is suspected of another crime.

"It's a responsible position for the defence to take because clearly, they're concerned about public safety," Slurka said.

While the McLean family knew to expect Thursday's ruling, McLean's mother Carol deDelley says she will push forward with what she calls "Tim's Law."

She wants those who are found to be not criminally responsible to have criminal records and to be treated in prison not in a mental facility.

DeDelley told reporters outside the courthouse Thursday that NCR should be changed to what she calls "NPA."

"That would be Not Psychologically Accountable but still criminally responsible. Because a crime was still committed her, a murder still occurred. And NCR seems to negate that fact. At least that's how it feels to us, "she said.

She also wondered why Li, who was born in China, was granted citizenship even after he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia.

DeDelley added she doesn't hate Li; she thinks he's dangerous and should be "kept away from the public for the rest of his natural life."

Spotlight on mental illness

The Li case has brought mental illness, particularly schizophrenia, into the national headlines and some psychologists say the trial has reinforced the stigma attached to mental illness.

Annette Osted of the College of Registered Nurses of Manitoba told CTV Winnipeg that its time to stop blaming Li and start searching for answers about what went wrong in the health system.

"His illness, left untreated, caused this horrific event. Now why was it left untreated?" she asked. "That's a factor . . . we have to look at as a society."

Dr. Richard Shore says that schizophrenics have more to fear from society than vice versa. He said the majority of people with the illness do not act violently.

"It's rare for schizophrenics to express outward aggression," he told CTV Winnipeg. "They are usually more isolated."

Mary Alberti, of the Schizophrenia Society of Ontario said on CTV Newsnet Thursday that "With 'Tim's law', we understand why the family would take that viewpoint but we also know based on experience at the schizophrenia society . . . that the outcomes with treatment can be very good."

"With proper treatment, Mr. Li, will have greater insight into his disease, but having said that we have to remember schizophrenia and psychosis are characterized by having a lack of insight that they are ill," she said. "But with proper treatment and support, we believe people can recover from schizophrenia."

Comments are now closed for this story

Lisa Toronto
said

I am fine with him going to a hospital. Be it jail or hospital as long has he is off the streets that is all that matters.


KT
said

This poor family, while the verdict doesn't come as a surprise - it doesn't negate the fact that they lost their son.
My heart goes out to you, I hope you win your fight to pass "Tim's law".


AMM in SK.
said

I can not believe this. The fact that he murdered someone, and just because he was 'ill' he will not have a criminal record? That is ridiculous.

I imagine that the family of Tim is sick. And they should be. Hearts go out to them.


Jason
said

It doesn't matter if he's in jail or an a mental hospital. Just keep him there forever.


Aaron
said

This disgusts me - I don't care what his problem mentally, emotionally or physically - he was caught red-handed, and his actions have cost the life of a young man. He's a murderer, and a very dangerous one at that - lock him away.

On a side-note, this is why we need capital punishment reinstated in this country. Dangerous and violent criminals can be eliminated at little cost to taxpayers as opposed to the immense cost of psychological therapy, which is not 100% guaranteed and often ineffective.


leslie in SK
said

Treatment will not guarantee he never attacks the public again and injures or kills. There is no monitoring program in existence that will ensure he takes medications unless he is in a secure facility. That is where he should be left, under lock and key as a Dangerous Offender.


will
said

This is not possible, i cant belive this.....a unrevesible act and he claim he's ill, this is bull s---, my thoughts to the family, my heart is with you.


calgarian
said

i agree with the decision. Based on his past history, hes never been a violent person. With his medical condition he could not of determined what was right or wrong.


John
said

Disgusting!

Our justice system has let us down again and again!


Art in Alberta
said

This is an indication that the justice system needs to change. Is there somewhere I can sign a petition to support "Tim's Law"?

This man killed another person by cutting off his head. Then he paraded inside the bus holding the head like a trophy; and people wonder if he will be a danger should he be released from the mental institute? He should be treated for his mental instabilities inside a prison, not a hospital.

It is disgusting how Li's mental pitfalls are being put ahead of justice for his victim.


Jeff from Alberta
said

AMM please get the facts before posting. This guy obviously will have a criminal record, when you kill someone it doesn't just go away. Did you see what happened? What human within their right mind would ever consider doing that. The guy is obviously pretty messed up. He will be behind some kind of walls for the rest of his life. Does this bring the kid back? No, but neither does locking him in a prison with people that were fully aware of what they were doing. Not the same thing.


JP
said

Totally unbelievable!!!! He should be shipped him back to his country of origin and let them deal with this 'criminal'. The legal system in this country stinks!!!


Lynn
said

I feel for the family here. I have a family member who was murdered by someone deemed "not criminally responsible" due to his mental illness and I know how hard it is to feel that justice has been served. I hope that the high profile nature of this case will bring attention to the fact that these mentally ill people should receive more than some therapy and a few pills after they have taken a life.


Al from BC
said

I can't believe the ignorance of Canadians when it comes to mental illness. Schizophrenia, which I believe is the illness Mr. Li was diagnosed with puts you in a virtual reality. Imagine if you actually heard voices telling you to kill someone because they were a mortal danger all of you would act on it. This is why educated intelligent people make the rules, not popular opinion.


Timothy
said

What a disgrace!
A sad day for justice in Canada.


NotQuickToJudge
said

Looking at some of these comments, I ca nsee why there is so much division in different peoples "perspective' of law in this country.

Here are the facts.
THE CROWN AND DEFENCE both agreed that he was psychotic. and in this country, if there is reasonable grounds that the defendant was 'in a different world' and hearing voices, the nhe is not criminaly responsible for murder.
I feel so sad for both families involved. And unfortunately in China, mental health problems are regarded in many cases as a crime, and mentally ill people are jailed for life when they didn't do anything wrong. So in essence, Canada is better off for the laws we have in place.

I think if this man has a history of mental health issues, we should look at what could have been done to prevent the crime. There must have been 'signs' way before what happened that showed he was not all there.

anyways, do i think he should go to jail? NO, he obviously was psychologicaly ill. I do think he should pend a good part of his life in a psych ward where he can get the help he needs.


Karen in Calgary
said

I fully support Carol DeDelley and would sign any petition in support of Tim's Law.


Vikki F
said

While Mr Li may not be held criminally respoonsible for his actions how can it be that he will have "no criminal record" and may be released one day? He needs to be removed from society completely so he never has a chance (whether he is schnizophrenic or not) to do this or anything like it again. God bless Mr McLean's family and loved ones who are the surviving victims.


cm in barrie
said

Jeff from Alberta - Not Criminally Responsible means he will have NO criminal record. He will spend the amount of time necessary in a mental institution for his meds to kick in then he will be deemed a functional member of society and he will then be our problem.

The man is sick with no question - but it seems that he will be getting off a little too easy since medication can lessen his troubles.

My heart goes out to Tim's family and keep pressing "Tim's Law".


The other Lowell in BC
said

This incident was tragic all the way around. A man was killed needlessly. A man suffering from mental illness was not getting treatment for a terrible mental illness and which has now ruined his life. I know something about the debilitating affects of mental illness. It is a terrible disease and not very well understood by the public. Schizophrenia is probably the least understood and can turn a passive individual into a monster. I would have to say some of the blame on Macleans death should go to our healthcare system for letting Li fall through the cracks. Especially after it was noted in his immigration papers to Canada.


Mike
said

This is the same verdict our family rec'd in ths similiar high profile murder trial of Gregory Despres in New Brunswick. We will join Tim's family to fight these laws that allow murderers to be put in "day-care" centers to be healed and put back into society. Another "black day: for the Canadian justice system.


Cory Gower
said

Schizophrenic or not a young man lost his life, a family lost a loved one. Li should remain locked up for life, though not at a prison in hospital where his unique needs will be met, but he should never be allowed to be released, because there is no way to be sure he would do this again.


Edwin, Kelowna
said

I agree with the decision. A man who cannot tell the difference between reality and a delusion is not someone who can be shown to have known what he was doing.

Yes, he killed a person - someone my age - and that act is a heinous one, but he doesn't deserve life in prison or execution as some of you wannabe Texans have called for. He deserves to be placed in an institution where he can receive treatment for his illness.

Some of you feel that this is a failure of our justice system; to those of you I say: fine, you don't like it, leave. go to the US where they kill those who are mentally retarded. Calls for this sort of vengeance are sick. You claim to be outraged that a man murdered another person, then you turn around and advocate his murder in turn. Your hypocrisy is blinding.


Adam Wolfe
said

Hold on - there is something wrong here. If the Psychiatrists testified that he thought he heard the voice of God which compeled him to kill McLean or risk being killed himself, why did Li then behead McLean and display the head as a trophy?

Not only that according to reports and witnesses, Li also tried go after others and made an attempt to escape. I'd like to see the Psychiatrists try to explain all that away.

Either way there is no way that I would believe anyone not finding Li a danger to society for the rest of his life. If they do I hope they are prepared for a wrongful death suit - if he is ever let out.


bob
said

Both my mother and my brother suffered from schizophrenia. I know how devasting this illness can be especially when patients go off their meds.

Although I sympathize with the family, I don't believe Mr. Li should be sent to prison. He needs to be placed in a secure mental hospital where he will receive the help that he needs.

Furthermore, having seen how difficult it was for my brother to gain release from a secure mental facility, I can assure people that Mr. Li will probably spend the rest of his life in hospital under extremely close supervision.


Gerald from Belleville
said

Here's my two cents on what SHOULD happen to Li.

Having been deemed NCR due to mental illness, he should not have a criminal record. However, his DNA, fingerprints, and a photograph should be entered on CPIC (the national police criminal record database) and it should indicate that he is a violent man with a serious mental illness.

He should not go to prison: he is mentally ill. As such, he should be placed in a high security mental facility where he would get treatment. However, he should never be allowed out UNLESS he can prove without the shadow of a doubt that he is no longer a threat. This means what is called a reverse onus: he would have to prove he is "healed" and no longer a threat to the same degree a prosecutor would have to prove someone is guilty in court. Which means that all the state has to do to keep him in a mental institute is cast doubt (not prove!) to a review committee that he might still be a danger. Burden of proof would be exclusively on him: presumably he would have to provide hard evidence (good conduct, successful education, several psych reports, medical follow-ups and documented history, etc...) he is no longer a threat. Otherwise, he should not be let out. This way would ensure public safety while recognizing that he has a mental problem.



James
said

Many of you should ask yourselves if you're looking for justice or vengeance. It sounds like you think they are the same thing.

This man will never be a free man. He will not be put into a cushy minimum security medical facility because of the horrific nature of his crime. The distinction between him serving out his life in a jail or hospital is just semantics. But you want it to be jail to make yourselves feel better.

I'm sure the life sentence this man has to suffer through the demons in his own head are much worse than any jail cell.

Nothing will bring back Tim. Don't believe for a second anyone is doing anything for Tim. They're doing it out of their own need for vengeance.


Randy
said

Yet again our justice system fails to punish and leaves the family of the victim without closure. But, does this ruling really surprise anyone? I also agree with the family that the NCR should be changed to NPA but still criminally responsible and have a criminal record. And to Jeff in Alberta, you should get your facts straight before jumping on someone else. Read the story again, it say Li will not have a criminal record!


T from NB
said

Jeff from Alberta

AMM does have the facts straight. It says right in the news article. They found him not criminally responsible, it also says in the article, since he is not criminally responsible, he will not have a criminal record. Reed the story before you criticise what others post.


Timothy
said

To "Edwin, Kelowna" and other self-righteous types:

the article states: "on the agreement of both the Crown and the defence, his DNA will be put into a registry so that it will be on file in the event Li is one day released and is suspected of another crime."

Why o why are we leaving this scenario open to happen!? He could get "treatment", so-called "cured" and 10 years from now when he refuses to take his meds one day he goes and has another "episode". You want the victim to be someone you love Edwin from Kelowna? Quit twisting this into something about revenge, this is to ensure this doesn't happen again. Shame on all of you who support these misguided legal decisions!


DF
said

Typical Canadian justice more for the criminal and nothing but despair for the family.

I honestly cannot see how these so called judges can live with themselves.

My heart goes out to the family


Lorne
said

I sympathize with the family on the loss of their loved son.

However, the Justice system did work in this case, as Li is mentally incompetent.

I do feel that Li should never be released into society and that he remain institutionalized for the remainder of his life.

His medical condition was known for a long time, by Canadian authorities and family members.
If this is not satisfactory, then return him to his country of origin.

This individual will continue to be a threat to society, irregardless of the type of medication he might receive.


Monica in Manitoba
said

The treatment should of been done before the murder...now we can all claim to be mentally unstable to get out of going to prison??

He did it he was the only one who did it...that should be the end of it....why cant he see a doctor while serving a prison sentence?? I live here in manitoba and will never ride a greyhound bus again!!!!! since the message seems to be go ahead do the crime then just say that you are mentally challenged...way to go Canada


TM
said

Why should I as a taxpayer pay to keep this guy in a hospital for the rest of his life? Better question, why should Tim's family??? Canadaian Immigration should also be held accountable for letting this guy in to begin with. How many more people suffering with mental problems have been let in to this country ready to go off at any time? Yes, there are many people in this country who suffer daily with both physical and mental disabilities but they don't commit acts such as this. Seems to me Tim's family has been victimized twice. Fist by Lee and now by our rediculous system.


Jimmy B - Perth Ontario
said

I can accept the fact that this man in not criminally responsible due to his mental state however, I am not convinced that he can EVER be cured of his disease.

That said, he is now and always will be a threat to innocent mankind and he should NEVER be released to public domain again. It is so very unfortunate that an innocent,kind human being had to lose his precious life to such a sick monster. My sincerest sympathy goes out to his loved ones. I have lost a brother to a cowardly act, while not so brutal, he met with the same demise. Remember the good times.


d hanlon
said

For crimes like this, why does the law distinguish between someone who is diagnosed as mentally ill versus someone who isn't. Anyone who commits this kind of act is ill in one way or another and deserves the same punishment.

There is no justice if this man is set free ever again, but with this verdict he has been given a chance to be set free in the future.


Karen
said

I don't agree with this decision and think it's an insult to the McLean family. Mental illness or not, this was a hideous and grotesque crime.

Defenders of Li talk about humanity. To those people I ask...where's the humanity in what was done to Mr. McLean?

Karen, Toronto


S in S
said

Please, find the group 'Tims Law' on FaceBook. It has the link to the petition.


Les
said

Was he also in a "psychotic state" when he packed his hunting knife to go on a bus trip?

Ridiculous.







Mike
said

Fine if he is schizophrenic ... but still declare him a dangerous offender


fitzz
said

One of the nicest things about capital punishment, for all its faults, is the 100% certainty of NO repeat offences!


LaLa
said

While I cannot begin to imagine the utter heartache and grief of this poor family, I feel that the court had made the best ruling possible within the confines of the law.

The experts have all agreed that Li was in a completely psychotic state when he committed this absolutely horrific act, and is thus NCR.

I agree that a SECURE psychiatric facility is the best place for him, though I would like to see him have to stay there for the rest of his life, not as "punishment," per se, but as a means of protecting the public from the possibility that he should ever have one of these psychotic "episodes" again.


sandy
said

my condolences to the family for making you feel worse than the day tim's life was taken...unfortunately it was not a judge's child or police officers family, that is how people get put away..it didn't effect them so life goes on..i see it all the time in the court houses...would have been put to jail had it effected the higher ups in society...bless the family.


Gerald from Belleville
said

To those who think he won't be let out because of this.

In the current system, not only does a guy like him not get a criminal record, if he is deemed "rehabilitated" by doctors he WILL be let out. This could technically happen in 1 year, and might be expected to happen in the next 10 or 15.

I'm aware of a case (no names, no places) where this happened: I knew the person directly (not a friend, a colleague). She was in her early 20s, and we all knew she had serious problems. She had no sense of right or wrong beyond "if I do this someone will hurt me", and while she was always full of energy and always smiled, she placed no value on human life. Example: people die in an accident, she laughs (genuinely) and comments on how funny it is when pavement gets colored red when people lose their heads. Her mother had been stating that she was unhappy and wanted to do some life changes.

One night, the person in question walked into her mother's bedroom and shot her in the face with a rifle, killing her. She then joyfully informed police (and all of us later) that it made sense and she had just given her mother a life change.

She was placed in a mental institute. She was released 12 months later, deemed rehabilitated and no longer a threat. I haven't seen her since, but people I know have and they say the scary part is she hasn't changed. She has openly stated that she was right and would do it again.

Sadly, this isn't an urban legend. I know the people involved. Some of my friends visited her in the institute.


Confused
said

A man's life was taken away by Li before he could accomplish what he wanted to. No kids for Tim. No more vacations. No more family time. No more anything. Of course there are calls for Li to be punished severly are about vengence. How could anybody who knew and cared for Tim not want vengence, regardless of the reasons why Li killed him? Never lose sight of the fact that when a man is murdered, his chances in life are gone. Why should the murderer have any more chances?


WJ in Edmonton
said

I'm in no way sure what the purpose of this particular trial was. After all, didn't the courts already deem him fit to stand trial with the original mental health evaluation? This seems to go against that original ruling.

The only thing I can think of is that if both sides stipulated that he was responsible for the killing then the only issue was whether he would be potentially sent to prison. If he was found responsible, there was no way that he could have claimed that he was not guilty of the murder. The issue in this case was not guilt vs. non-guilt, just whether or not he was criminally responsible. I can't offer an opinion on the verdict as I'm torn in both directions. It's a sad day nonetheless.


Dave in Calgary
said

Prison may not be the option, but on the street ever again should not be either.

This family and society deserve to know that this creature will never hurt another being.

We have gotten way too forgiving and understanding. I myself have suffered several bouts of mental illness. I take responsibility for getting care. If I were a danger, I would want the safety of society to come before my right to the most normal life I can have.

Compassion is fine, but common sense needs to prevail.

I don't really think Tim's law (from what I know of it) is the right tool. A new version is needed that addresses this trial's outcome and the need to put society and victims first.




Becky of Calgary AB
said

Dumbfounding - he got off for now. What about his jail mates or fellow hospital patients - what happens if he kills them?

Certainly not much justice here. It's bad enough losing a son but for 'nothing'? Horrors! I won't be riding a bus anytime soon.



Rick in NB
said

To all who are disgusted. Just pray that your family never has to deal with schizophrenia. When you see this terrible sickness first hand you tend to lose the moral perch you stand on to judge.

It can still happen to you. You don't have to be born with it. If it does and you have no sensible judgement left, then you do something outside of the law. I hope you still feel so disgusted!


Nancy in Sask
said

Jeff from Alberta,before you start critizing someone you are the one that needs to get your facts straight.Read the article above,it clearly states he will not have a criminal record.

I realize that this man was mentally ill when he committed this horrific crime,and needs to be treated in a hospital. This should be a hospital for the criminally insane and he should remain there till the day he dies. The way the law is now we could all go out and commit crimes and either plead insanity or you were too drunk and didn't know what you were doing.It is utter nonsense!

Regardless of his mental state this man killed another human being and that should never be forgotten or absolved from his record.He will never be able to be responsible enough to be trusted to take medications for his conditions and the probablity of him reoffending is extreme.

My heart goes out to the family and wish them well in getting the government to listen to reason.


Rosalie Hodson
said

As long as he takes medication for his condition, he may appear to be perfectly normal and harmless, but the day he stops taking it, he could once again commit another horrific act. Therefore, while I can accept that he was not responsible for what he did, he must forever remain interned for the sake of public safety, as he could revert to similar behaviour at any given time.


Frank in Winnipeg
said

RCMP Taser a Polish immigrant to death for holding a stapler in a threating way. So did none of the RCMP officers feel threatened that night? Mr. Li should/must be locked up for the rest of his life. He's fortunate he lived to go to court. Justice in Canada? TBA


Dwayne Chomyn
said

Mark my words, he will be out in a year and will be off his meds in two.


Charlie
said

Terrible! I know the man's sick and should never be free from his hospital but he knew what he did was wrong. He knew to hide a large knife on himself. He knew to attack a unsuspecting victim completly unaware. He knew not to step off the bus because 3 guys were ready to beat him to a pulp if he did. He knew to avoid the police. and he knew to try to escape out of a window of the bus. ....sick in the head yes! ...BUT HE KNEW WHAT HE DID WAS WRONG!




BB
said

If someone is deemed schizo or psycho are they to be left alone. I would think that what ever leads one to that place. A young child is not born or typically raised like this there is something that this person has done to bring himself to this place, what was he feeding his brain to honestly believe that God would want him to do this.

When someone feeds them self on junk and evil they will be that also. It takes a conscience decision to feed on evil. There for the out come back to that person should be consiquently inherient. This person will continue this way. Unless what he feeds himself on is changed. My heart goes out to the family of Tim. Hoping you find piece in God.


Kieran
said

It's interesting the comments that people make when they have no concept of reality. The fact is defence lawyers don't use the mental illness defence to get their clients off, in fact it is often done only in severe circumstances.

Those who have been sent away for psychological reasons often spend much more time incarcerated than those found guilty. Also, sentencing someone to death actually costs much more than having someone behind bars, though neither are very effective. I am so sick and tired of the uninformed right (such as our prime minister) giving their naive opinions.


Shocked in NL
said

Absolute Disgrace!!!!

Does Canada's justice system even exist??? I'm shocked and sickened.

My heart goes out to the McLean family.




Doug
said

This was the only option. Everything about this is horrendous but putting an insane man in jail would not reflect the values of Canadians.


Rob in On
said

After reading the verdict in this horrific case I can understand why vigilanty justice exists! When will the courts ever do the right thing for the victim & his family! What a joke!!
I still hope he never see's the light of day again!


nc
said

This is what our justice system has agreed to do for eons. The judge was constrained by past rulings.
Welcome to Wonderland. Some of you may recall this short lived cbc show.


Shawna
said

This is absolutely disgusting! I am so sick & tired of hearing how easy it is nowadays to hear how you can plead criminally insane & not be held accountable for your actions! Regardless of anything the law should be the law. STOP allowing criminals to get away with a slap on the hand. There are consequences for every action. What are they going to say when he or anyone else like him is released & kills again. He did the crime he should do the time. NO MATTER WHAT!


nc
said

A correction. The cbc show is actually titled "This is Wonderland"

But you get my gist.


Doug BC
said

Once again we have been betrayed.In this case by both the justice system, which offers no assurance he will not walk freely among our families,and has no way of assuring he can be "cured" of his affliction.

And also, by an immigration system that granted him citizenship AFTER he was diagnosed as someone with schizophrenia.

Blatant Liberalism and our bleeding heart mentality will lead to the destruction of what was once a fairly safe and just society.

One has to wonder how far justice and immigration have to fall before citizens begin to take their own actions against those who commit these outrageous and violent crimes.At some point I expect citzens to decide that,if our government won't act to protect our people,we will have to do it for ourselves.

You think this is bad?? It can get a lot worse if we don't elect people with the stomach to incarcerate some offenders,and deny status in Canada to those who are likely to be a burden to our society.


beverly - lethbridge
said

The problem with schizophrenia is that the individual does not EVER appreciate the dangers of their condition.

When they are medicated, all is right with the world (for the most part)- they begin to feel normal, happy and productive and VERY often, then discontinue their medications as they feel no further benefits are required. It is the base nature of the condition.

The condition then comes on again not with a bang, but slowly so that they do not appreciate the difference in their actions and reactions to various stimuli.

There is absolutely NO reason why this man could not be treated in prison. It is just not convenient to the prison system to do so and that places the onus for public safety on the family of victims to continue to fight the offenders release into society.

A Sad Sad day for Tim's family and our hearts are broken for them all.


This is unjust
said

I love how in Canada the murderer is the victim. Send this murderer to prison. He murder a young man, but that seems to be overlooked. Any criminal could come up with this line "I heard a voice". I hope Tim's family can find some closure.


Tarah
said

I feel very sorry for the family of the murdered person. But reading your comments makes me worry. Thanks god none of you will ever become a judge.


Karen in Calgary
said

Well said, Timothy.

Why are people so anxious for people like Li to be returned to society? Most would puke if he moved in next door to them. I would be more than happy to see my tax dollars go to housing him in a comfortable room in a facility (I don't care if it's not a jail.) where he can be monitored and receive medication to keep him stable, be given the necessities of life, pursue a hobby, and make friends with others receiving the same care in the institution "community" while living out his days, just so long as he is kept off the streets for good, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Some people like Li are proven to be defective and thinking that medication can solve everything is putting way too much faith in a few pills.


bob
said

Death Penalty!

Anything else is insufficient.


Jim from Toronto
said

Today, I am ashamed to call myself a Canadian. I am a citizen of a country that coddle's criminals instead of protecting it's own innocent people. We are the ones who pay the taxes, we are the ones who make this country function in a civilized fashion, and yet we are not protected by any substantial deterent/consequential federal laws for the crimes that were committed by Li. If there were any such laws, I do not believe they would be enforced.

On a side note, who in the world would want to join the RCMP or any other Canadian police force after observing this ruling on such a terrible crime? Our police officers are out there risking their lives trying to catch criminals, and yet when these criminals finally show up in court, they get a slap on the rist. If I were a police officer watching this I would turn in my badge. It's not worth risking one's life to watch a criminal get off so easily.


Shannon
said

Are we really surprised with this verdict? Li brutally murders an innocent man and he is not going to see a single day in jail. So, where is the justice? Waste of time and money. He is going to be "treated" and then let loose. Wonder which school of law the judge went to? There is no accountability whatsoever and that is across the board.
So sad for Tim Mclean's family... another person let down by this weak justice system.


Samantha from Ottawa
said

Really, I would think that almost any person that commits murder (not real accidents) could plead not-guilt or not criminally respondsible, because any person in their right mind would not think that taking another person's life is ok!

This judgement is so disappointing, this family had their son taken from them and this man is not going to jail! My heart truly goes out to his family, I cannot imagine the struggle they are facing.

Plus, even IF this man is sitting in an institution for the rest of his life so the public is kept safe- that just means that we, as law-abiding citizens are paying for this man to be there! Maybe some may find me insenstive, but why pay SO MUCH money for all of these murderers to live when clearly they took that away from someone else and their family and friends!?

I agree with Aaron's comment that "this is why we need capital punishment reinstated in this country." I would never want to know this man, or any like him is on the street around my children. Maybe meds will help him, but why take the chance that one day he decides not to take them and this happens again, those that helped him get out of his respondsibilities this time should be ashamed of their role helping a killer get free.


Don
said

I think Li should spend his remaining days rooming with Bernardo & Olson in a maximum security prison. And tell Li's roommates he may be at risk to re-offend. See how well they sleep at night. At least the public will be safe.


Michaela from Montreal
said

There are no psychiatrists or psychologists who would contest the decision made by the court in Li's case. Those who know what they're talking about know the right decision was made. The petition that Tim's family is circulating will not materialize into policy change. I can tell you that with 100% certainty. My heart totally goes out to Tim's family, but rather than putting their efforts into something that will ultimately leave them feeling angry and powerless they should use this energy to accept that what happened happened and they have to rebuild their lives around it. Ultimately, bad things can happen to those undeserving of it. Canadians need to be educated about mental illness early in life. This is the only way to prevent further incidents like this from happening. The psychiatric population is in desperate need of help, and, thus far, the help provided to them is mediocre. Since I am not a politician, I won't pronounce myself on how the gvnt budget should be spent. However, as I work in the mental health field, I can definitely say that many people who suffer just as much, if not more so than the physically ill, have absolutely no access to help and are left to deteriorate. Eventually, these individuals take up a lot more resources from the system than they would if they were to receive the treatment they need early on and whether they can afford to or not. Because treatment for mental illness DOES exist and can be quite successful. I hope to see the day when treatment for mental illness is recognized as a human right and covered by medicare.


Katie K
said

Good, I am happy for Vince Li. He deserves a good hospital to be in do he can be treated for his schzophrenia. I am very glad for Mister.Li


SL
said

I think this is fair. Having worked in a mental health facility for people who have been deemed NCR - it's a tough life.

On the comment regarding why he obtained citizenship even though he had Schizophrenia is quite prejudice. Just because you have a mental health diagnosis, does not mean you cannot be a fully functional person. That means anyone with Depression, Anxiety, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, could potentially be denied citizenship - that's not Canadian or humane.

On the comment about being treated in Prison, not a mental health facility - that's a stupid response. There are trained professionals in a mental health facility, not a prison, for example, access to RNs, Occupational Therapists, Psychologists, etc.

Although I feel horrible for the family's loss (as any loss would be difficult) - they do not know what it's like to have a mental health condition.


The Other Lowell in BC
said

Based on the majority of comments on this blog, I think we have a long way to go to before people recognize the debilitating and serious affects that mental illness has on individuals and society. I am sure that all people who advocate help for mental illness recognize how tragic this event was. We have a young person with his life cut short and the accused, Li will never be a free man. He will be in an institution and /or under intense scrutiny for the rest of his life. He has lost his freedom for something he did not have control over. Scary as that may seem, he is by no means alone. there are other people not getting treatment for this illness and we see some visible signs of it on the streets of our cities. They are called homeless. The problem with schizophrenia is that FEW people can comprehend how someone can have an altered brain state and be able to commit something as terrible as what Li did. Like most diseases you can see a cause and an effect. With mental illness it is very difficult and usually only by trained psychiatrists. Unfortunately we don't have enough of those. For you posters accusing someone of being self righteous you really need to get educated. I pray that you don't have to deal with such an illness in your family. I am quite sure, you would not be making those statements.


Linda in Vancouver
said

I sympathize with people who have mental health problems to deal with.Their plight is not to be dismissed.And while I can agree that this is a sick man,"Al from BC" should know that this does not quell my anger with the immigration department.
I know what schizophrenia is "Al".Your suggestion that only "intelligent" people have a say in creating the laws in Canada is completely over the line,and an blatant insult to "intelligent" people who believe this man should not have been admitted to Canada in the first place.
Your charge that only "ignorant" people would have this view makes your own credibility questionable.
Where is the "benefit to Canada" in importing more problems,when we have yet to manage the mental health issues of citizens already living here?? Are we to be the dumping ground for the mentally ill that other nations want to be rid of??


Roy in Toon Town
said

This story would not have made the back page of your local newspaper if it hadn't been such a violent and "sensationalized" incident. I wonder how many people each year are deemed "not criminally responsible due to mental illness" and are out on the streets in 2 years. This guy probably won't be just due to the fact it was such an infamous incident.


AndyL
said

Infreakingcredible. People want Bush tried as a war criminal, but a guy cuts the head off some else and he is not criminally responsible. Stop the world I want to get off!


Justine
said

How did the defense explain the fact that he had a knife on him to commit the crime? Isn't that some form of premeditation? He knew he was going to harm someone. He also conveniently had plastic baggies for the body parts? Sounds like he had a plan. And if he was so worried that Tim would kill him, why did he apologize to the police and then ask them to take his life? Doesn't make sense to me. Mental illness or not, I think he had some idea of what he was doing.


MuskyBuck
said

This...ahem, human will spend the rest of his days on tranquilizers.

He'll be a drooling slipper wearing zombie, despite the fact he won't be recieving a criminal record.

That doesn't lesson the pain but most should be made aware this character has a history of mental illness and will be considered a danger to himself and others for life.

He'll come up for evaluation and he won't ever pass because his file will always be flagged.


John
said

He also knew enough to pack plastic bags??
Does this not lend to the fact that it was pre-meditated act?? He may be sick but he planned this! God didn't tell him squat. I think he should get his treatment in a jail cell that he shares with a cellmate twice his size for the rest of his life. It is clearly time for change in this country for our leaders have failed us terribly in so many ways. What - have we got lower occupancy at the hospitals than the jails? Is this about job security in the hospitals? God knows your gonna need about 100 staffers to keep this dude in line. BIG QUESTION - What message does this send to the next killer out there? And please, please when you let em out - keep him out of the Hammer


DS in Labrador
said

Are you kidding me? The crown and the defence both agreed that his DNA should be on file in case he is suspected of another crime!! Then one of our own "criminal lawyers" states that this is the responsible thing to do in the name of public safety??? So, the public will only be safe if he does this again??


AMM
said

Jeff in AB

I got the facts... right from this story. Did you not read it? The story states the following..

'With the NCR declaration, Li will not have a criminal record.'

Thanks for paying attention Jeff from AB


Gabriel, Ontario
said

I think there is a great amount of stupidity in these comments. Someone who
did something this horrible is insane, they should be dealt with but not with all the precision of a lynch mob. I do hope and think that Mr. Li will spend the rest of his life in a mental institution because i think he will always be deemed a threat to the public. For all the people who make it sound that anyone can claim to be crazy to get out of a crime. You are very naive, hearing voices from god that command you to kill would be the most horrible thing i could imagine and I am sure that being in the mind of a Schizophrenic is more punishment than our courts are capable of dealing. My heart still goes out to family for there horrible loss but my mind stays with the law.


Penny
said

To Edwin...

Mentally retarded is someone who is mentally developing slower than the average person. Mr. Li is schizophrenic. Not the same thing. I believe he should NEVER have freedom again. I'm not clear on what happens with people who suffer from schizophrenia. However, my concern is that he will commit another act of violence in the future. Having DNA on file is not going to comfort the family of the next victim! Since Li is divorced and hasn't been in Canada much of his life... who is responsible for keeping an eye on him if he ever is free again?


Jenn from Mississauga
said

Jeff from Alberta, you get your facts straight, the article clearly states "Li will not have a criminal record. But on the agreement of both the Crown and the defence, his DNA will be put into a registry so that it will be on file in the event Li is one day released and is suspected of another crime." My thoughts are with the family.



elephunt
said

to all of you lovely people demanding Canada reinstate capital punishment, think carefully, use your brain for just a moment, and count the number of innocent people who have been wrongly convicted over the years who would now be dead if you had your way. You are also advocating the execution of mentally ill people. Think about this. I know it hurts for most of you, but do try.


Matt in London
said

It's really quite amazing that there are so many mental health and criminal justice experts on the board. I'm especially convinced by a vague recollection of something that may have happened in Belleville.

People who advocate throwing him in jail don't understand the founding principles of our criminal justice system. Seriously, this is Law 101 stuff - you don't convict people on actus reus alone.


Difficult, but correct verdict
said

First of all, my heart goes out to the victim's family. I hope you find closure and healing in this sad time.

For those of you who have never had to deal with someone with mental illness, you have no idea... I mean absolutely NO CLUE, of how extremely difficult and heartbreaking it can be for everyone. These are wounds that can neither be seen with the eye nor healed with a bandage or a cast, but they are very real and disabling. I will never condone what happened and I believe that Mr Li be locked away for a very long time until it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is healed. My crystal ball says that his condition is indeed permanent and he will never be free of his prison, either real or perverbial.

Yes, this was an emotionally difficult verdict but the correct one and the best one to take.

To you people who think that taking a human life in revenge for the loss of another life is the right thing to do: I say quit your job, sell your house and kiss all of your family goodbye and move into a cave where all prehistoric savages belong. We hammer on other countries who still practice capital punishment, and yet you want to see Mr Li die and have yet another family suffer?? Hasn't there already been enough sadness and mourning? Your revenge and vengeance mentality is insulting to the rest of us who walk upright. Two wrongs can never ever make a right!

Grow up and move beyond the eye for an eye mentality! Think big picture here, people! This is the very thing that is anchoring down the human ace from progressing to something more mature and respectable.


Ivy Chau
said

I'm totally fine with Vincent Li not going to jail, as long as he never steps foot as a free man outside a hospital or jail every again. However, I feel for the family of Tim McLean.


Sam Sweiti
said

This is not OK. The entire society is entitled to be more than just assured that he won't be out on the streets ever slicing up people.
Yes, he is mentally challenged but he should have an on book criminal record and should be locked for life in a facility that can handle his special needs.
I sincerely feel sorry for the McLean's loss.


Katie K
said

Wow, in other civilized countries murderers are actually punished! Only in Canada. Shame on all those who support this verdict. Obviously you've never had a family member murdered. If you had, you wouldn't care if the criminal responsible had schizophrenia or not, you would demand the justice that Tim's family is seeking.


Doug
said

The Problem with "Tim's law" is that it will treat all cases of murder in the same way. A justice system should always treat cases individually as they are all different acts. Arguing for stiffer sentences when individuals are convicted is a different matter which I certainly support in many cases. No doctor will ever release Li as they would never practice again if he commited another crime afterwords.


Andy H
said

What a farce! Li never mentioned voices when he was arrested or when he gave his statement to police hours later. When he was arrested he said "I am guilty". He seem to know the difference between right & wrong then. Li suddenly realised he heard voices when he he spoke to his lawyer. The shrinks & Judge in the case should be ashamed of themselves. Li should be jailed for life as a minimum. They will probably let this guy out in two years


Karen in Calgary
said

Michaela from Montreal

Exactly what "treatment" for mental illness is available that would have prevented an incident like this one that you think Tim McLean's family should just "accept", and how do you know that it was not tried? Pills for everyone? Talking it out for $100 an hour?




Ben Hanhart
said

While I can understand the reasoning behind difficulty in convicting mentally ill people with criminal offenses, it is hard to encounter situation like this. It is also important though that changes we make to our justice system are made through the right channels, otherwise we find ourselves descending into a mob mentality. Vince Li however should never again breathe free air. Short of a full cure for his illness, this guy can never be trusted within society.


Kim
said

I'm not surprised Li was found not guilty by reason of insanity. But if Li was not in reality at all, why did he have a knife, why did he have plastic bags, why did he try to get out of the bus when he was apprehended. How did he pass a medical exam to emigrate to Canada.? Those questions were not answered in court. All I say is I can't imagine anyone dying in a more horrific way than poor Tim McLean. I'm a senior and never heard of such a barbaric act in Canada like that. It really upset me when I first heart about it and still does. Even if Li is mentally ill, I find it too hard to feel sorry for him. Even if Li wasn't competent to go to prison,he should definitely be declared a Dangerous Offender and never again released into society, or the same thing could happen again to some poor person who just happened to sit next to him. I am so sorry for Tim's mother.Nothing can ever make up for the senseless killing of her beloved son.


Mike in NS
said

I understand the verdict though I in no way support it. I will support 'Tim's Law' and changing NCR to NPA. That makes total sense.

Now all the people in full support of the verdict...he said he was 'suddenly' told by God to kill Tim. That does not explain 1) Why he was on the bus, 2) he had a knife. This all seems premeditated to me.


Laurel
said

Li was diagnosed as schizophrenic in 2005 and he refused treatment. Look what happened. He should not be released. It would be a mistake to send him back into the community and trust him to take his medication, keep appointments with doctors, etc. I don't think he can be that responsible. He needs to stay confined for the safety of the public.


Mike Pinot from Calgary
said

Yes, I feel very sorry for the family. But, all you people must be complete idiots if you do not understand what a mental illness is. I completely agree with the decision. When someone is that ill as to do that to someone, they need treatment not jail. That is what is wrong with our system. Perhaps, most of have never had to deal with mental illness before. So shame on all of you for being under educated morons!!!! Get the facts about mental illness before you speak.


Margaret in Bowmanville
said

He IS responsible, though for continuing to take medication for his condition. Doesn't that make him responsible in some way?

My deepest sympathy to the family of Tim. God Bless them.


JEP
said

I wanted to make a comment about the verdict that might help. Vince Li committed the brutal act with a kitchen butcher's knife did he not? A kitchen knife is not what someone carries around with them without premeditation. A jack-knife, sure. But a kitchen knife indicated he had premeditation, nullfiying the "psychotic epsiode" argument altogether. For that matter, carrying any type of knife at all indicates premeditation. The verdict is wrong.


Mark
said

My biggest concern is that he goes into treatment, and a couple years from now while medicated he is deemed fit for release. Once released and on his own, since our society doesn't really take care or monitor the mentally ill (such as the homeless), he will go off his meds, start hearing voices and become a threat again. But at least with his DNA we can confirm that it was him who murdered again? How will this be prevented??


Louise McNamara, Sudbury
said

My brother was mentally ill when he was beaten to death in 1999 by 2 supposedly sane men in their late teens who ended up getting 2 years less a day because it was not believed that the fact they were running after him down the street saying "I'm going to kill you" meant they actually meant to kill him. This being said, I understand how frustrating the legal system can be but I also know what it means to have a family member that sometimes has psychotic episodes. The family needs to accept the death and sentence and get on with their lives or they will never be at peace. Continuing the battle will only prolong their pain.


Dave in BC
said

Wouldn't carrying a knife capable of being used in such a crime prove some sort of premeditation? Someone who can commit an act like this cannot be `rehabilitated', be it murderer or child molester or arsonist. There should be no chance of freedom for people found Not Criminally Responsible, regardless of their mental state.


Carol K.
said

I have a question:
Can someone please tell me why this man had a knife on him? What size was the knife?
(As to his illness, I think he needs treatment and permanent incarceration).

Thanks,




Fred - Brandon MB
said

This shows a serious problem with our justice system. This murderer can be released from hospital without a criminal record. He can seek employment and legitimately answer "no" to the question of whether or not he has been convicted of a crime.

This man is an obvious danger to the community of he goes off his meds. He should remain institutionalized for the rest of his life for public safety. In reality, he will be back on the streets in a few years or as little as a few months.

The other problem I have with this verdict is that upon his arrest he expressed remorse and asked the RCMP to kill him. So even in his psychotic state he knew what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway.

The verdict should have been GUILTY


Mike Stephenson Crescent Valley
said

Canada's so-called "justice system" is a national disgrace! The facts are clear - he butchered an innocent man in cold blood. Either he receives the punishment he deserves or Canadians should start realizing that there is no justice and start taking the law into their own hands.
Regarding the point that he may be considered "safe to be released" at some point; well, if that occurs, then he should start serving a full sentence for murder.


Susan - Fredericton
said

This sickens me. For all you people who want compassion for Li because you have a family member that suffers from mental illness are self serving and righteous. What if you were a member of Tim's family. The point you all missed is Li had no family support, he had been wandering the country. He immigrated here only 7 years ago. But for you mental illness sympathisors I'll tell you this. I have a bipolar person in my family and when she decided to go off her meds you would have thought she was in jail. Our family closed in on her so fast and put her back on track. Mental illness is just that. These people need to be supervised at all times and need strong families. Where was his family or his immigration sponsor? Was he diagnosed before he immigrated? Did someone lie on his papers. If they did they are an accessory to this murder. Put him in a hospital and remove any chance he could be on the street again. Even the faintest hope is too much.


Wayne
said

Totally shocked that he may be allowed to be back on the street!!
He should remain in a mental institution for the rest of his life


tc
said

For all you who say this is a good verdict let me ask something. What would your feelings be if this was your child, sibling or friend? You all try to come across so enlightened that Li is not guilty and that he has to live with his illness and demons. But would you feel that way if it was your family in that situation. You have the luxury of not having to and you come off like Li is the victim here. He is not.


Daniel
said

In reference to Aaron's statement, yes it was a terrible crime, and unnecessary crime, capital punishment has proven to be very ineffective as a general deterrence to crime. Also, it does not save tax payer's money. In fact, according to Griffiths, (2004) "The long legal process associated with death penalties result in higher costs than if the offender had been incarcerated for life in a correctional institution."


Heart goes out to the family, but thats just my two cents.


PB - Toronto
said

So typical. The only thing still missing from this is the frivolous lawsuit blaming the government or police for his actions. I agree this was no doubt an "episode" but why does a normally "stable" person carry around a butcher knife. I guess we can all be proud he wasnt tasered. Society loses a contributing member of society and family loses a son. Where is his second chance?


Ken
said

I wonder if all these questions about immigration and sending him back to "where he came from" would even exist if he were from, let's say...Europe?


R Eddy in NB
said

this opens the door for other people who murder they will just get a good lawyer an use this case to get off.spend alittle time in mental hospital back out on the streets. maybe the left wing juge and lawyers in this case should have him live at there house when he gets out.


Concerned Canadian
said

D Hanlon and others calling for capital punishment:

In our system, to be criminally responsible requires two things: mens rhea (capacity) and actus reus an actual act). Mens rhea means that you must have had the intent to commit the crime to be held criminally responsible. Mentally challenged people, children, and the mentally ill cannot form intent. Therefore they cannot be held criminally responsible. That is why this person will not have a criminal record, and why he cannot be held responsible for what he did.

Further, the cost of capital punishment is far greater than the cost of life-long incarceration or psychiatric help. Calls for the reinstatement of the death penalty on those grounds are merely indicative of a deep ignorance of the economic facts.

But who in their right minds thinks that it's ethically acceptable to kill mentally ill people anyway? What's next, public executions? Burning at the stake? Public hanging of children? What this guy did was gruesome- but he is sick. He needs help, not vindictive punishment.


VIC
said

Really, Really frustrated!

Victim and Victim's family who will care? Stupid lawmakers!

Canada is definitely not a fair country and We do hope Tim McLean will have fair share in heaven!


Murray @Cobourg
said

When is our government and society going to UNDERSTAND that we need tougher laws..An eye for an eye...You Kill You DIE..Stop the insanity tie strings, stop the young offenders act...You pull the trigger you draw the knife you kill you DIE...The killer would think twice before committing a crime when they know their life is also on the line..Maybe we should look at other foreign countries to see what their punishment is for the crime??


Bob
said

I can't belive this, this is just stupid.


AndyL
said

Let's see, anyone who takes some elses life except in self-defence is arguably insane. So maybe it should not be a crime? How about the drunk driver who kills someone, he certainly did not mean to do it, hisher judgement was impaired due to the alcohol. Not responsible I say! It's too easy folks. This man does not belong in a mental institution, the people who think he is not criminally responsible do.


Niagara George
said

There is much merit in the comments on both sides of this very sad story,

From people I know who have children who are schnizophrenic, one of two things happen when they stop their medication. Either they commit suicide or they commit a horrid crime.

Both have happened in my circle of acquaintances. For society, the unfortunate part is that in neither case is the ill person held responsible.

It one case they have died and so their torment has ended. In the other, the courts are willing to excuse the behaviour.

One of the reasons for sending criminals to jail, is to set an example for others thinking of commiting the same crime.

In the case of schnizophrenic individuals, Mr. Li's outcome tells the next person that it is okay to stop their medication. No matter what they do after stopping, they will not be responsible.

Most schnizophrenic individuals are fine when they are on their meds. Once they feel 'normal' it is easy to think they no longer need the medication. Where we fail these people is that society does nothing to encourage they continue trreatment.


Steve Edmonton
said

I just wish that there could be a stipulation that guarantees he is kept away from the public for the rest of his life - whether in jail or in an institution.
Even though I never knew Tim, this event affected me greatly. My thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.


Michelle
said

If and when he ever is released, it should only be under the condition that he be monitored for life by a mental health professional to ensure that he stays in touch with reality. It happens far too often that people begin to feel better, so they stop their meds. Then they lose touch with reality again. In Mr. Li's case we can assume that he may become dangerous again if that happens (not every schizophrenic is dangerous BTW). For his own safety and well being, as well as for the safety of others, he should always be supervised to check on his mental health status.
I feel for the family but the desire for revenge is not an acceptable reason to deny Mr.Li freedom if and when he regains his mental health through treatment and demonstrates that he is no longer a threat to society. Tim's Law should simply be a change in law that makes lifetime supervision by a health professional mandatory for people with such a history of violence while suffering from mental health problems.


Keith in Brampton
said

I agree with the ruling; however, Li should never be allowed to be released (until and unless a permanent cure for schizophrenia is developed). I agree he should not be punished for his actions; however, in the interest of public safety he MUST be kept off the streets.

Further, if he - or anyone else found NCR - are released and they commit further acts for which they are found to be NCR, I believe the officials who released that individual should be required to serve the time the offender would have served if found responsible and guilty.

Society needs to be properly and permanently protected from the criminally insane.


Thomas
said

This is totally a tragedy. The accused is mentally sick, the victim was there in the bus at the wrong time, in the wrong place. The accused should be kept in hospital and off the streets for treatment.


Dale
said

It's like the drunk excuse. "I was so drunk I didn't know what I was doing." I'm getting really tired of this.


Ben, Edmonton
said

Self-serving and righteous? This man is a lunatic. If someone does not have the capacity to make a decision, the justice system holds that they are not CRIMINALLY responsible. A criminal act only occurs when the suspect makes a cognitive decision to do something. This man's ability to make a decision was not functioning... it would be like punishing a baby for soiling its diaper. For this reason in itself, any push for a "Tim's Law" will be a dismal failure at best. What's wonderful about our justice system, and something that you should appreciate, is that judges aren't influenced by sensationalist media reports and facebook groups... or idiotic anti-immigration assertions. This guy will likely end up spending the rest of his days in a mental institution, and that's where he belongs.

Of course what happened is sickening and terrible. However, if you think that this man's actions, noting that he was unable to control them, are punishable, then you are essentially an advocate of punishing the mentally ill for being mentally ill. In a case like this, your gut reaction shouldn't be to get hot and bothered and cause an uproar about how this guy isn't being punished. Rather, you should be considering the stigmas regarding mental health issues and how perhaps helping people would be better than demonizing them.


Kevin
said

Let's hope or "justice", woops, I mean legal system doesn't put him back on the street in a couple of years.


Janine in Salmon Arm
said

I am very Disgusted by this...So what happens in a year from now and the hospital thinks that he is doing "better" ...he gets released and is givin another chance at life???? with no criminal record???? Who's to say that it won't happen again, who's to say that Li won't snap again. I understand that Li is sick and needs to be treated, but I don't think that he should ever be allowed to be released...let him spend the rest of his life in there...My heart truly goes out to Tims family. I think of you all daily


allison toronto
said

canadian society has failed both parties in this issue:
'If you suffer people to be ill-educated and their manners corrupted from infancy and then punish them for which their 1st education disposed them, what else is to be concluded,that you first make thieves and then punish them.'
-Utopia


cheryl
said

Horrible tragedy. I feel for the family.
Li is indeed mentally ill and it would serve no benefit to put him in jail BUT... serious flaws with committing him to a psychiatric facility too. I worry about potential release once he is deemed well enough. The thing that troubles me is that there were warning signs leading up to this tragedy and nothing was done then. It wasn't until he had a psychotic episode that panic ensued. What if upon release, he simply stops taking his meds??? He should NEVER be let out. I also have to admit that it annoys me that taxpayers have to pay to keep him off the streets and in doing so, allow him to receive better care than most. He will have a clean residence, 3 meals and basic necessities. ONLY IN CANADA...sigh!






shayne gregoire
said

The verdict that was given is wrong. The law these days has so many loop holes that anyone could get away with the most disgusting crimes, under the pretext that they are mentally insane.

I do not think thats this justifies such an act, if the guy doesnt think that what he did is wrong, that doesnt make him mentally insane, it just makes him pure evil.

I know what losing a loved one is like and if this happened to me too I would be hardpressed to accept the verdict aswell.


Cody-BDN,MB
said

To just add my two cents to the chorus of nickels...as a health professional I am offended that people think we in the mental health community and the justice community have a desire to see Li released anytime soon. In fact more than most we have a firm grasp of the gravity of the situation. In all likely hood he will never be released and nor should he be. I do feel for the family; I cannot imagine what the grief must be like, but I ask everyone (since mental health issues can attack anyone at anytime), are we not glad we live in a country that takes authentic mental health issues in account?


saskprincess
said

This is so unbelievable. Goes to show you how the Canadian Justice System is horrible yet again.


Solace
said

Justice is never served when we harbour such disconnected souls, who committ such hanis crimes amongst our tax paying, innocent, law abiding, and unsuspecting families. Which reminds me, the duty of all gouvernement representatives, and /or estabishments is to protect; a} the people b} the country c} the environment and its creatures


Alison
said

Vince Li brutally took the life of a young man who was just starting out his life. That he won't even get a criminal record is a joke and reflects extremely bad on our Criminal Justice system. I feel so bad for the McLean family and that nothing will be done about the horrific killing of Tim.


Rob
said

What a total retarded mob mentality.


Steve in Toronto
said

Two points in response to those who criticize this verdict:

1) people who are found "not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder" often spend as much as double the amount of time in psychiatric facilities than they ever would have in jail. In this case, a conviction for second-degree murder would have entailed a minimum of 10-years without the possibility of parole. It seems likely that Vince Li will spend much more than 10 years in a psychiatric hospital.

2) to establish the defence of insanity, it is not sufficient for the accused to just be "ill." His illness must have prevented him from comprehending the difference between right and wrong. This is extremely difficult to establish. The insanity defence almost always fails. Li must be well and truly insane for the prosecution to actually concede the point.


Right thing to DO!
said

Good! I am happy to hear that.

Agreeable however I wish they change law just little bit to ensure that Judge has power to impose life setence upon any mental challanged individuals to mental hospital for rest of their natural life.

That I agree to...


Colin, from Quebec
said

I agree with helping the mentally ill better adapt to society, but that doesn't change the fact that Vince Li is a violent killer. He deserves a much harsher punishment. Our "justice" system often forgets victims and their families.




Belinda from Miramichi, New Brunswick
said

AL from BC....How dare you??Canadians are not ignorant...I understand what schizophrenia entails...but when they state that they will evaluate if and when he will be considered "safe" to the public and himself for release, that is what concerns me. There is a fair chance that he will be free. The brutality of the murder and the traumas and loss it caused is irreplacable. When and if he is released, what security will we have that he is routinely taking all his meds????NONE!!!! It is not popular opinion that makes us decide our feelings and we are NOT ignorant, we are scared as a society!!! Same thing about child molesters, they get a few years and out they go again and ready to do it again...that is what Canadians fear!!! Ignorant, we are NOT!!!


Jeff Smith
said

Either this guy is guilty or the person that approved his immigration application is. Take your pick.


Evan C from Regina
said

I don't get what everybody's hubbub is about him being found not criminally liable by reason of insanity. The judges only real decision in this case was whether his 6x9 cell would be padded with a solid steel door or concrete with bars! Either way, he is going to be there for the rest of his life. And if he is every found mentally sane, he will more than likely be brought back to trial to face criminal charges related to the trial.


PH from Edmonton
said

I'm very concerned about future murderes who will use the defence of mental insanity as a defence for future crimes. Could it not be possible to commit a horrific crime, and claim that you were acting on behalf of God or were acting due to some auditory hallucination?

This type of defence can be difficult to debate, as there is no "medical test" to verify such a defence. For these reasons, I feel that the court's decision should include a mandatory-time to be spent in such a rehabilitation facility. This mandatory time should be comparable to the time a mentally-healthy person would spend in a prison, only that this time can be spent in a mental instuition.

In other words, if the crowne would impose "x" amount of years if Mr. Yi for the intentional murder of an innocent man, that same amount of time must be spent at this mental instuition.




green
said

I think when you eat someone you've murdered that should qualify you as a dangerous offender and therefore never again see the light of day.


JD in Alberta
said

What a crock. This monster says god made him do it. Did anyone ask him if god help him buy and then pack the combat knife?


Another gutless verdict, by another gutless judge. With laws made by bleeding heart liberals. Bring back the death penalty. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life.


SW in Alberta
said

What a joke!! Geez, lose your mind and it's OK to kill? And then decapitate? Sorry, I don't buy it! I hope the new law passes, but I am doubtful about that.


Daniel
said

I thank God that most of the people posting on this forum are not in any position to change our laws. The issue is not whether he killed the person, this is without a doubt, but what matters here was did he have the criminal capacity to do so? In the vast majority of cases in criminal law, the guilty act is not in and of itself sufficient for a conviction of murder; intent is also required. Given that two psychiatrists have said that he suffers from psychosis and suffered from an attack during the event in question, and given that the Crown and the defense agreed concerning the insanity issue, which I must add is quite rare in Canadian jurisprudence, this sentence is appropriate. In Canada we do not condemn those under 12 for committing even the most heinous of crimes. Why? Because it has been judged that they lack the capacity to form criminal intent. Argue with this all you want, but it is the law in civilized nations. So it is with mental illness as well. And I guarantee that for those who feel that the punishment is inadequate that time spent in a mental care facility being pumped full of mind-numbing drugs is not a picnic. Many on this post seem to feel that he is "getting off." He is not, he is just getting the punishment that the law provides for people who are too ill to form criminal intent. If you are completely out of your mind and cannot appreciate the consequences of your act, then you cannot be treated like an ordinary murderer no matter how gruesome the details may be.


M. Yates
said

I know we've seen this kind of ruling several times, but still it is like a kick in the gut for the victim's family.
I have a brother-in-law who is schizophrenic, who spent time in Penetang because of a rape. The time spent there hasn't really changed him at all. He got his 3 meals a day, got his meds, and because of that, was fairly lucid most of the time,but it hasn't helped the victim to get over the ordeal. Too much time and money is spent on "incarcerating" the perpetrator, but what about some help for the victim?
Zilch..they are on their own.
What a great system of so-called justice we have here in Canada.



Don in Calgary
said

To Edwin,
I tell you what when these "experts" say he's fit to re-enter society, I nominate YOU to be his caregiver, You have this poor misunderstood soul live in your home 24-7. have him share a room with your kids.

Bleeding hearts make me sick.


Nicole from Surrey
said

This man, regardless of the cause, is a criminal and a serious danger to the public. He should be kept away from the public for the rest of his life.


Rhonda, Vancouver
said

I am truly horrified and deeply saddened by the NCR verdict in this trial. While the accused may be ill & therefore incompentent, there is no doubt that this is a crime of the most heinous kind. I understand that he may not have understood what he was doing at the time, but again, there is no doubt as to the outcome of his actions. A verdict of NCR is simply unacceptable, because he DID commit a crime, he is RESPONSIBLE for commiting the crime and a young man's future is forever lost. Li deserves a criminal record & a life behind bars. This is a black day for the Canadian justic system & I pray for whatever peace of mind his family may hope to find, while they endure this tragedy the rest of their lives.


L. Yates
said

What exactly are we afraid will happen to these 'mentally ill" people if we put them into prison?
If they get out of hand, what about putting them in solitary confinement?
Are we afraid they are suffering, so we don't want to inflict any more "pain" on them?
What about the pain the victim's family is suffering?
God I hate our system!!!



Deb
said

I am absolutely appalled! Canada just got scarier! How dare the justice system let this man use such a sorry excuse. My heart goes out to the family.


Denise
said

Where do I sign up to petition for "Tims Law". This person is CRIMINALLY responsible, even if not psychologically responsible. A crime was still committed and since this creature cannot even be forced to remain on medication when he is released, he should be incarcerated and treated in PRISON until his death. he should NEVER EVER BE RELEASED!!! The courts need to take their misguided sypathies for the criminal and aim them towards the family of the victim, an innocent 22 year old who was MURDERED HORRIBLY! Canadian justice - what a joke!


iBelle
said

"calgarian
i agree with the decision. Based on his past history, hes never been a violent person. With his medical condition he could not of determined what was right or wrong."

I'm not sure I understand. If we looked at all first crimes in this light, no first offenses would ever be punished. Li hacked the head off a complete stranger and ate bits of him. How is this NOT a violent act?

My heart goes out to the family and friends of Tim McLean. There is no justice. Li will get assessed, thrown some meds and eventually be sent off into society. Hopefully Li will be monitored for the rest of his life and stay on his medication. This would be best for him and for us. However, I suspect that the system will fail(again).



Eric
said

What a horrible crime.

I give credit to the family for trying to find a solution where Li is held criminally responsible and serve a definite jail term for murder, even though he was determined insane and requiring treatment.

What would be wrong with a DEFINED term in a mental institution?

Allowing for the possibility of release in the short term seems completely wrong, given the severity of the crime.

He should have a DEFINED time where he CANNOT have the opportunity to re-enter the community.

Surely his rehabilitation can be assumed to take some time (10 years?)

How secure is this institution? How do we know he won't get away?

Also, the goal of this mental help will be to make him better. If he is capable of getting better, doesn't that assume some CAPACITY to reason and feel remorse?!

Didn't he feel immediate remorse right after the crime? How can he be said not to have a sense of right and wrong?

All around, this decision seems totally wrong. Can't we lock him up FOR A DEFINED TIME and treat him too?

Why make the family go through annual hearings...why even allow the POSSIBILITY for release in the short term?!



Cameron
said

What as thi guy not tried in front of a jury? Probably because they would find him guilty. How the heck did this man get to Canada anyway...im an immigrant from Scotland with a degree, MBA and professional qualification and it took me 5 years - had medicals, criminal back checks and references....


Linda Kulferst
said

why did the polish immigrant get tazered to death by the police for not understanding english, but a guy can terrorize a bus load of people, kill a young man and the police did not shoot him. why, I ask. Now, he will be released probably sooner than we think and could do it again....


mountain man
said

As much as I love Canada, it's thing like this that test my faith.


JRH from LA
said

OK "Edwin, Kelowna", when Li is released we'll have him move in next door to you and you can take the bus with him to work. Also, I think most people think he should not be allowed in public again; not the death penalty (although someone regrettably did post this). This is the repeated failure of our justice system; they release offenders with little chance of remediation too soon and they re-offend. I think most people just want the offenders away from the public. They only way to keep the preadator from attacking prey is to separate the two.



Dani - Alberta
said

This is abysmal. Li had a previous diagnosis, meaning he had a responsibility to take medication, meaning he is responsible for he actions. The fact that this man could one day be released with no criminal record terrifies me.
I guess the bottom line is, stick to flying, at least there you know the guy beside you doesn't have a knife.
A serious reform is needed of our justice system.


rose
said

My heart goes out to Tim's family, and I pray that you will find peace in the sad situation of losing your loved one..

As for you who are asking why Li had a knife and plastic bags and as such the act must have been premeditated I can only say that a psychotic episode is not necessarily "losing control for a moment" but probably had been haunting him for a longer period of time. When the voices he heard, which by the way for a schizophrenic are very real, he believed he needed to have certain items with him.

Mental Illness is very difficult for many to understand, but please try to understand that the correct decision was made in the light of justice.
Justice is not Vengeance.



mel
said

I agree Schizophrenia is a terrible disorder and people cannot control what they hear, etc. however he was reckless in that he decided for some unknown reason not to take his medication. Medication can be given in jail and gives society some security that there will be a criminal record, as well as that he his behind bars for a long time. Being in an institution, well there is always a possibility that he can be let out into society year after year... I support Tim's Law!


Meghan Manitoba
said

I think this isnt right , definitly. I think anyone that murders someone should not be allowed to be anywhere but jail for the rest of human life. Like this murder was really brutal. Even though Canada does not promote death on murder criminals , is rediculous enough. This just isnt right. I think they should of thought about this a little more before thinking that he needs help. of course he needs help , and I believe he should be in a jail for life and not in a hospital. You may give him pills to help him and whatever, but seriously this isnt right. I think the people would rather him be in jail for life , to be there as he has commited a criminal incident, just as anyone else that would of killed someone they would have other penalties and plus they would have a criminal record. I hope with the new goverment , this will change and benefit Canada a little bit more then in the past. The criminal code here is kinda slack.


d webb
said

I think it is absurd that Vince Li gets off. I remember when he was asked right after the incident if he had any comment, he replied, "Just kill me." Doesn't this prove he knew he did something wrong! And he has already refused help in the past. They state they are going to determine IF he is capable of hurting himself or someone else in this "evaluation". Hasn't he already proved that! He is dangerous and should NOT be allowed out EVER!!! I don't care where they keep him locked up but just keep him locked up away from the public.


Ricky
said

Some of these comments are so ignorant I would think this was an American message board. If a person is ill and has a mental disability he can't always help but perform the actions that his brain is telling him to do. If someone has an undetected brain tumor in their head and it causes them to act violently because it is applying pressure to an area of the brain that affects behaviour are you going to lock said person up for something they have absolutely no control over? It would be like if you lost control of your car and smashed into someone and killed them unintentionally and they locked YOU up for murder. Educate yourselves on mental illnesses before you make stupid, ignorant comments.


christa
said

i really dont belilive that someone could kill some one else and just get away with it. And becaues he said that "god told him to do it that he will not have a criminal record. this is ridicluous i am sickend what he did to Tim & his family. lock him up for ever. shaking my head say OMG


Carolyn Moo-Young
said

My ex. is a psychotic / schizophrenic and one day he may do this, but no-one believes me because he knows how to carry himself off as normal and the Privacy Act protects him.

This 1% of the population with this mental illness cause taxpayers tons of money in social services, police calls, court cases etc.

They are sick but think they are normal and that we are sick.

The judicial system protects them as one would protect a "child" who doesn't know what he/she is doing.

Well, they don't.

But children have parents who are held responsible. So, who do we hold responsible for this murder?

I blame the laws that allow us to be at risk without knowing the risk.

Does this make sense?

When will the laws change to protect the public?

"They" are protected with OUR taxpayer money, they cause us great financial, mental and physical harm, and then they are "not guilty" because they don't know what they are doing.

So how about treating them like they don't know what they are doing and just allow the rest of us, who know what we are doing, to protect ourselves against them that have sudden changes of behavior when they experience mental hallucinations and act upon them.

THE PUBLIC SHOULD NEVER BE AT RISK.

TAXPAYERS PAY FOR PROTECTION

TAXPAYERS DESERVE PROTECTION

Get it? I KNOW that my ex is capable of doing what Vince Li did and I CANNOT protect anyone against him. He is allowed to live the way he chooses.

Should he have that right???

Should he have the same rights as "normal" persons? He poses a risk that a "normal" person does not pose just by his mental condition.

BIG QUESTION.



PTOL
said

Any immigrant convicted of a violent crime should immediately be deported back to their country and refused entry back into Canada. This country has become a safe haven for creeps and criminals. Enough is enough.


Inga
said

This is a very sad day I feel for the Mclean family and I feel for Vince Li. This should be a eye opener for society that individuals that are mentally ill there is treatment but comes with limitations. If you do not have the support of a family memeber to help you or to push for treatment, you are then another lost soul on the streets that we see daily and treated like a freak, when the truth is, it is not the person it is the illness, the chemical imbalance. For Vince Le no one no's how scared he was also that day, what horror movie played out in his head to protect his own life. Hate the illness not the person. In the end to this horrible incident I hope he gets the best treatment in a pshycatric facility. For the family again I am sorry for your loss.


Kevin in Winnipeg
said

We deport a injured fellow working in Canada who failed to get his citizenship, because he would be a burden. But another fellow gets his citizenship. Has an unchecked mental illness. Hops a bus and murders someone. This guy is now our responsibility? His citizenship should be revoked and he should be deported and never allowed back in this country again. Our tax dollars are going to pay for his well being/treatment every day. Makes me sick!


There is still time to call on His Name(JESUS)
said

Society as a whole is morally wrong; forget the justice system. Is anyone too afraid to use the term evil these days? The scientific point of view always has to try justifying itself by discrediting what was,is and always will be. Wait for it! That God is the One that's really in control not in term of one's imagination but as a matter of fact. The Bible acknowledges that Satan is the ruler of this earth and as long as people will give him the reigns, this world is only going to get more wicked with him (I'm still talking about the dark, fallen angel here). Do you want freedom from this type of decadent, degrading, obscene, inhumane and flat out tyrannical criminals? Then get on your knees people, cast down your doubts and pride and give God the Glory if you want a safe haven for your children and yourself. We're not in control here HELLO!!! anyone home! Oh! and the scornful, don't forget to ridicule the obvious here lest you be having doubts about your own 'selves


Isabelle Montreal
said

I think CTV news has to take responsibility in showing this story from both sides. So far we have seen it from the side of the family who without a shadow of a doubt have endured great pain and loss. The other side is the life of the mentally ill- a very intricate and profound illness that needs to be understood by society.
FALACY: It is the person who kills.
TRUTH: It is not the person but the illness and its chemical dysfunctions that kill. This is the very reason why the justice system is set up the way that it is.
By educating the public about mental illnes, it will bring more understanding and less hate towards a man who is getting the help he needs.


Denise - Western BC
said

Admittedly I do not understand why a mental illness (Schizophrenia) can bring a human being to murder. Voices or not, this was not a spontaneous act - he was carrying a butcher knife (why?). I despair for the victim's family and for our justice system that has once again failed. This man needs to be kept from society.


paul
said

I find it a little puzzling regarding the verdict:

first, someone noted here he had the foresight to bring plastic bags. Something else no one noted here was that he also had the foresight to bring a over-sized knife with him on the bus.

second, after decapitating the victim he parades it around like a trophy

third, maybe we should remember, during the incident itself, he tried to escape after killing Tim Mclean.

Was he sick yes, yes he was. Is he sick, yes he is. However, to sit there and not apply criminal liability at least to some degree is just insulting. There is no justice in that verdict.

I don't know if prison is a realistic option but he did show premeditation why this is ignored is frankly apalling.


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