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CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Tue. Nov. 25 2008 10:06 PM ET

As the economic storm clouds gather, Ottawa plans to curb the pay, bonuses and perks of politicians and top bureaucrats in Thursday's fiscal update, CTV News has learned.

"In this time of belt-tightening, politicians have to be able to demonstrate to people that they are able to do that themselves," Kory Teneycke, the prime minister's communications director, told CTV News on Tuesday.

Sources told CTV News the measures will include:

  • Cancellation of a planned three per cent or $4,600 pay hike for MPs who already earn $155,400
  • Restricting the use of government challenger jets
  • Ending all unnecessary travel and entertainment
  • Cutting all business-class travel for cabinet ministers and top civil servants

It's also believed that Finance Minister Jim Flaherty will order spending cuts at Crown corporations and other federal agencies. Insiders say the financial belt-tightening could save Canada tens of millions of dollars each year.

On Tuesday, debate in the House of Commons focused on the way the Conservative government has handled the country's economy in recent months. Flaherty took much of the heat from opposition members on behalf of the absent prime minister.

Stephen Harper, who recently attended the APEC conference in Lima, Peru, this past weekend, was not present during question period.

Flaherty has said that there will be no fiscal stimulus included in the fiscal update, set to be delivered at 4 p.m. on Thursday.

On Tuesday, Flaherty was on the defensive, telling his fellow MPs that the Conservatives made prudent financial moves in recent years that left Canada in a better position than many of its peers.

"Canada is not an island, but fortunately, we are well prepared," Flaherty said Tuesday, noting that the Conservatives had cut taxes and increased spending on infrastructure in the past two years.

But Liberal Leader Stephane Dion said it appeared to him that Prime Minister Stephen Harper had failed to predict the coming recession.

"The prime minister contradicts himself on deficits. He contradicts himself on recessions as well," said Dion, pointing to the prime minister's recent referrals to 'structural' deficits and 'technical' recessions.

"Recessions are not about semantics -- they are about job losses, about Canadians who need help," Dion said.

"Why doesn't the prime minister get it?"

In response, Flaherty said Dion "ought to take the advice of the expert on deficits in his own caucus" -- whom he named as Liberal MP Bob Rae.

Rae served as premier of Ontario during the recession of the early 1990s.

Flaherty quoted Rae as saying that it was "not a reasonable position or an intelligent position to take" that the prime minister was personally to blame for any recent deficit that may have occurred at the federal level.

A few minutes later, Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe returned to the issue of the prime minister not predicting the economic crisis.

"The prime minister said during the election that there would not be a recession, but today he admits that there will be a recession -- and that the recession is right at our door," Duceppe said in French.

"Can the minister explain what was so urgent to call an election because of the economic crisis, whereas now it's not so urgent to take action to deal with the impacts of this crisis?"

Flaherty said "no one in the world was predicting the kind of economic downturn, and the severity and depth of the economic downturn that we've experienced in the last 12 weeks.'

Things also got a little heated during an exchange between the finance minister and Liberal backbencher Yasmin Ratansi, who asked Flaherty about the way he would use "non-core federal assets" to help raise funds for the government.

Flaherty said the government intended to review corporate assets under the expense management program, to determine if individual assets "still fulfill a need for the people of Canada."

The finance minister bristled at a follow-up question from Ratansi, who suggested the finance minister had shown a "lack of fiscal discipline" in doing his job prior to the current economic crisis.

"Fiscal discipline is an oxy moron coming from a Liberal member," Flaherty said, while house members both cheered and jeered.

Think-tank predicts big deficit numbers for Canada

Also on Tuesday, the Ottawa-based Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, a left-of-centre research institute, said Canada may see a $46.8 billion deficit in the coming years, if there is a major recession.

That's much bigger than the high end of the parliamentary budget officer's prediction, who said last week that Canada's deficit could be as high as $14 billion as the economy slows in the next two years. Kevin Page put the low end of possible deficits at just below $4 billion.

According to the CCPA, those numbers may be too low.

"A major recession starting in the fourth quarter of 2008 and lasting through 2009 could produce deficits of $1.4 billion in 2008/09, rising to $27.9 billion in 2009/10, and $46.8 billion in 2010/11," said a CCPA press release.

However, it also noted that a mild recession would create:

  • a very small deficit in 2008/09, perhaps in the $1.4 billion range
  • a $12.6 billion deficit in the following year that would go up to $20.5 billion in 2010 and 2011

The CCPA is calling on Ottawa to take decisive action to curtail the damage from a global economic slowdown.

"The real underlying question now is not whether the federal government should run a deficit but how large the planning deficit for 2009/10 should be," Marc Lee, CCPA senior economist, said in a press release.

"The federal government has a lead role to play in cushioning the impact of a recession, both through federal programs and in partnership with the provinces."

With a report by CTV's Robert Fife in Ottawa and files from The Canadian Press

Comments are now closed for this story

Reece
said

Yes, thanks Steve for the tax cut...I think it equates to 3 cases of beer for me every month.

Heckuva Job, Steve


Shoe
said

Thanks for voting Harper.
Now those of you who did, shall see the result of your actions. All of the deficit repayments, will be totally erased, and make the deficit increase.


Jessica
said

...and if the government increases spending on every program and increases the wages of civil servants and hires more of them, and buys new aircraft to replace the CC-150 Polaris then the deficit will be over $100 billion! what does the left get out of making people think the deficit will be higher than it actually will be?


Dave in Que.
said

Thus it begins again Another round of huge deficits under inept financial leadership.Flaherty hasn't set a date yet because the liberals haven't released a policy on the economy yet so he has nothing to steal and call his own.


Steve
said

Not sure what the point of this study is. A left-of-centre think tank is alerting us to the possibility of a big deficit? Well, then let's do the things necessary to cut that deficit - slash spending, cut public service jobs, and increase taxes. Two of those three things won't sit too well with a left-wing group, I imagine!


Dick Varley
said

News is news. However consider the source. The majority of economists who are not considered to have political opinion suggest that Canada may be facing a relatively mid recession. The government positioned the economy a year ago to withstand the brunt of any downturn. The country is performing well in the current global economy which has spiralled downward beyond the expectations of all. The global economy will not correct itself until credit is brought in line with productive capabilities. The USA in particular has encouraged a consumptive attitude fuelled by uncontrolled credit. The economy will respond favourably when credit is brought under control.


Jim
said

A large deficit is possible, it won't affect my Christmas and holiday season.

I will enjoy the goodwill and spirit than accompanies the holidays where we can forget abot spending if only for a few days.

Spending time with family and friends and indulging perhaps just a little on holiday goodies are just what I ordered for my family.


dave
said

It seems alot of people are misinformed when it comes to economics.
Governments have a role to ensure that the effects of an economic slow down are as minimal as possible.
This can be done in a number of ways, such as lowering interest rates, cutting taxes, or increasing government spending.
As far as cutting taxes, and increasing government spending are concerned, a government will do these things in harsh economic times, to "stimulate" the economy by putting more money into it. Governments will INTENTIONALLY run deficits in order to minimize the effects of a recession. A deficit will occur in Canada right now, because the fed's are going to start spending money on things like infrastructure, or bail outs in order to ensure the economy doesn't tank.
I do agree however, that it was irresponsible of Mr. Harper to sqaunder away our surplus in the first place. If your going to cut taxes, you have to cut spending. He did the opposite, and cut taxes, while increasing spending.


RobO
said

Ok folks, I can see the knives comming out for the Harper Government, but you know what I don't think any government in the world was ready for this. If you have fear in the economy - don't blame the government, blame the people who created this problem - STOCK BROKERS - They are the ones who push the market up and down not the government.

But if you think about it, it is in the human gene to blame someone else when the crap hits the fan.

I'm concerned about the economy and how this recession is going to effect my family an myself. But I still can't blame the government for the problem.

If we really look at the big picture, do you really think that any of the other parties would be able avoid any recession.

If you actual believe that any party could of stem the tide that has sweep the world, please pass around what you are taking, cause we could all us a little fantasy time right now.

All we can do is hunker down in the bunker and ride this out.


Foxer in Vancouver
said

Reece - it may not seem like much money to you. But if 20 million canadians are buying a few extra cases of beer it keeps the breweries and their jobs afloat. If they eat out once a month more it keeps the restaruants in business. If they buy one pair of shoes they couldn't afford otherwise it helps that industry. Or maybe it's the difference between being able to afford a car or not.

It all adds up to a big difference in the bottom line. Canadian business needs people out spending money and while it may not seem like a huge difference to you, there's more than 20 million taxpayers out there and it makes a big difference in the end.

Jessica - the left gets to scare people into thinking things will be worse, and falsely portray doom and gloom and attempt to blame it on harper.

The fact is as near as we can tell the downturn won't be anywhere near that bad and Canada will suffer far less that most countries. Thank god we're not facing a carbon tax and dion's crazy plan - but they want to hide that fact if they can.


confused?
said

Where is all this information coming from? Who are these people that write it??...markets up......markets down....recession.......no recession........deficit.......no deficit..... banks show profits.....banks need bailout......auto sales up........auto industry needs bailout........think tank says this.........think tank says that.......canadians plan to spend more at christmas........canadians plan to spend less at christmas.... Is there any real news that is worth reporting out there? People do not know what to believe anymore. If you have a job and you need something... buy it. But for heaven's sakes stop reading stuff like this.


AMG - BC
said

Prepare myself? ..I've been prepared since Harper said we would escape a recession.


LF
said

Thanks everyone. I didn't know that voting Conservative caused this recession. It shows how powerful they are. I see it has affected the whole world. So, we could have avoided this world recession if Dion was PM? You better go look at his interview on Mike Duffy Live.


steve (Ontario)
said

Technically I think Harper and Flaherty are terrible economists. Can we stop the tip toeing and start doing something. Where's this leadership I heard so much about. Instead of sitting on your hands until the American's make the first move; drop your ignorance, call this what it is and do something proactive. This leadership is two steps behind! Maybe they need help from Mr Dion, cause the government doesn't seem to know what do.


Wayne
said

Anyone who listens to think tanks needs to think again - first off we are in surplus now and our unemployment numbers are very low so maybe well into the future a deficit and then again maybe we won't be in a deficit. The only good news here is for the usual crowd of Harper Haters out there who actually need to get a life.


Concerned about Truth from the Top
said

Now we know why Harper and his Conservatives called that early election. They knew, but did not tell Canadians the truth about what was happening and about to worsen in the economy.

More Conservative tough times and high deficits to come, much like the conservative Republicans in the USA.


Gary Newmarket, Ont.
said

To all of you crying about Steven Harper as you know it is a Minority Government..Second of all if you're so confident in your Liberals and there taxing everything why is Stehane Dion not running the show thank god he is not..I don't know if you pay attention to the news but there won't be Government anywhere who can weather this mess I don't care who you put in there. Tax cuts are always good and deserved to the middle income earners who foot the tax bill always. If we run a deficit it will be to sustain through tough times and help those who are in need don't forget that just may be you and then you will change your tune. Do me favor vote for the Liberals seeing you enjoy being taxed to death all you whiners. Heard the old saying damned if you do and damned if you don't.


robert
said

We need to be patient with Harper during these, "technical times". And, not to forget, that with Bush departing, it will take some time for Harper to outsource policy alternatives for the future.


MuskyBuck
said

As a business owner for the past 5 years, what I've never understood was why the Harper government carved down the GST.

The tax cut to 6 percent in the first year, followed to 5 percent this year seemed to me an outright veiled attempt to win votes.

Most wouldn't understand the impact a single percentage point would make to government coffers but on the outside looks like an attempt to lower taxes in Canada.

It's been my opinion that either a country needs the tax amounts they've been collecting or they don't.

In this case, we certainly still did. The carving of the GST down two percentage points amounts to a loss of 11 billion dollars thus far.

What really concerns me is that these two percentage points were being carved at a time when Harper (professed economist) would have seen the impending credit crisis coming in the US.

To win votes, it appears the Harper government cut off their nose to spite their face.




Russ
said

Well folks "It is what it is". Buckle down and get for a ride through turbulant times.

:)


Sahib Reginawale
said

Jessica:
As I read yesterday the civil servants are only getting a pay hike of 6.8% over four years (2.3, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5). Leave those poor civil servants alone. This doesn't even cover the rate of inflation. Those poor guys will have to cut back on their lifestyles.


Dd
said

Too bad we still didn't have the surplus the Liberals had left behind. The rainy day is here, Steve. Where's all that money?


Jim
said

In the Red does it again!

I hope the Feds have overdraft protection.


George
said

I agree with Mr. Campbell. If one industry gets federal money then they all should equally.

I also agree with Reece; Steve is doing a heck of a job. Enjoy the beer for under the libs you would have to give all of that back as they would jack up your taxes on everything.

As for Flaherty being at the financial helm? Probably better than most and we will not get into a discussion of Bob Rae's performance!!! Or Iggy's green shift - by the way where has that gone now? Must be gone because the libs knew it would increase costs on practically everything one purchased. But maybe they would have eliminated the GST as per the Red Book of 1993 - oh sorry for bringing that lie up again.


amazed at the gullable....
said

It never ceases to amaze me how everyone blames the results of an election that was less then a month ago for an economic downturn that was years in the making. Do people not realize that any economic issue is now a global problem, and realistically the success or failure of a government actually relies very heavily on the previous government? This is merely people being sucked into the propaganda of the media and refusing to actually think for themselves. What this country needs is more people willing to work for their ideas. The hardest thing to do for anyone even on the most basic of level is plan a successful budget if they don't know what their income will be.....


Larry I Ontario
said

This is ridiculous!
After ten long years of outstanding Liberal management the Conservatives will put us in a deeper hole now. Immediate termination of Flaratty is a must as he is nothing more than a clueless clown. Hard times require the very best people and he has to be the worst! Harper stop flying all over the world in useless summits and do something drastic!


jessBABYbrighton;)
said

All I have to say is...

"Oh my word... what is this country coming to?.."


Dale Springham
said

this type of alarmist reporting is detremental to all of us,this doom/gloom
scenario of 3 years away is
not relevant,we have to deal with todays problems,and identify solutions quickly to
offset this irresponsible
journalism,we could end up
with no deficts to worry about,you don't know anymore than I do.


shane prpich
said

Hmmm Mr. Harper is giving $50 billion in tax cuts to corporations, then we will be $46 billion in the red! How about we stop feeding the corporate pigs and then we are $4 billion in the black!



Mike
said

and another thing.. this is a WORLD ISSUE. not just a Canadian one.. and if the Liberals were in power.. we'd probably be seeing a 9% GST to solve the problem..


Nancy
said

You can't seriously think that Harper is responsible for what is a "Global" Financial Crisis.


Class of '81
said

These are only possibilites and scenarios, this isn't what is happening now.

I don't think that you can blame Harper or Flaherty for this big global downturn, especially in the U.S.

I'd rather have Harper in charge then Bob Rae. I remember Bob Rae when he was premiere and the disaster he created back then, which we are still paying for now.


Mike van Lammeren
said

Spending money we don't have will not improve the situation, it will only aggravate it. I say cut government spending to stay out of deficit.


Peter in London
said

We need to pass the word among us. Especially people who work in the private sector or use to work in the private sector and are now unemployed. Write, Email or call your MP: WE WANT GOVERNMENT TO START LAYING OFF NON ESSENTIAL GOVERNMENT WORKERS UNTIL THE ECONOMY IS BACK ON TRACK. DEFICITS SHOULD BE KEPT TO A MINIMUM. Those who dissagree with this should only be government workers. Those who think that this would only create more people collecting unemployment should realise that it's cheaper than for them to collect a full pay plus all their myriad of benefits.
Governments has become like 16th century France; royalty. It is simply not fair for the private sector workers who are the ones that truly create the country's wealth.
BTW: Those who blame Harper for not keeping taxes high need to take an economics class 101. Canada was and is still overtaxed. Cut socialism and waste. Sooner or later people are going to wake up I hope.


Ken - Calgary
said

Shades of Brian Mulrooney all over again! Thanks for voting Conservative, Canada. We could have weathered this storm just fine, but Harper decided to squander the surplus on buying votes. It's ok.. the Liberals are still there to do what they have always done - clean up Conservative MESSES.


Jimmyjim
said

Jessica, what makes you think the deficit won't be as high as what CCPA says?
I think they are being more realisitc and truthful that Harper. This recession/depression has not found bottom yet, so we may very well call it a depression.


LL- Central Cdn.
said

Did anyone out there vote for the "Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives" ? Don't recall seeing them on the ballot. I prefer to deal in reality. I will wait for the budget and the reasoning behind it before offering an opinion on it. Also, note that this group is a "left of centre" organization so do you think maybe they are going to skew the numbers a little, nay, a lot ?


Steve
said

Not voting for PM Harper would have driven us to Bankruptcy not just a deficit. And a fear mongered deficit at that. I thank God PM Harper is guiding this country.


Nick in Regina
said

If we are headed towards the *Mother of All Recessions* (at least according to the media) during the next few years then it would seem appropriate that we would have scary deficits as well. Of course the government should mitigate by reducing spending but there is only so much that can be cut ... especially when sectors of the economy are crying out for bailouts.


Wes
said

It doesn't surprise me...it seems that the economy has it's ups and downs all the time and regardless of what they(government) do, it's not going to chance for a while. Let's not forget the baby boomers, their time is coming to an end and it is possible that we could see another recession in the long term.


Trevor
said

Well I can predict a trillion dollar deficit, will that get me a front page story?

All this talk of major recessions and huge deficits is going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. The media goes out of their way every day to destroy consumer confidence and spread panic through the markets.

Anyone who thinks that this wouldn't happen if the Libs were in power is dreaming. This problem is worldwide and Canada is being dragged down by it. If anything the 12+ billion a year that has been given back to taxpayers and the funding that has been restored to the provinces has already helped to cushion our fall. Just be glad we aren't dealing with a carbon tax right now!!


Simon Shaw
said

I am not a Harper fan but we cannot blame the economics of the world on Steven Harper.

We can blame Steven Harper for erasing the surplus when it was our rainy day fund. It is raining now and we have no umbrella.

Every political party has and will make mistakes. I just hope Steven Harper is big enough of a man to tell the Canadian people that spending our Umbrella fund on useless non existent child care payments was not worth it.

I have two boys who do not use daycare. I got the payments and they now have a 37" LCD on their bedroom wall for educational purposes. Buying the LCD was a mistake. I should have put the money into my own rainy day fund.



Joel in Kamloops
said

It will be interesting to see if there is deficit spending in the world's top economies.

That would seem to me to be the big measuring stick. At this point, it sounds like the majority of the world's economies have gone a little sour, and the country that comes through this particular recession the best will be the one that should be praised and studied.


Dave Phillips, Phd.
said

I guess Canadians have gotten what they voted for. The Conservatives are not good fiscal managers of teh economy. Harper did everything in the book to buy our votes and Canadians fell for the trick. The GST cut was unnecessary. The last election was the dirtiest I have ever seen in my 25 years of voting in Canada. Harper did everything he condemned as opposition leader. Oh well.... Thank God I have enough savings to see family and I through this mess.


Wes
said

Do I hear 50 billion, 55 billion? Lets just go for $100 billion and be done with it.

When oil was increasing everyday, there was a so called expert saying oil could hit $150 a barrel, than another one saying $200 and one actually said it could hit $500.

Like oil at $146 a barrel this summer and now around $50 it just shows that things can turn in an instant.


norm/wawa
said

Just like always, you put the progressive government in power, and what happens..? yes their rich friends get richer, and we go into a deficit.


John in Calgary
said

Will you people pull your heads out of your ___, it doesn't matter who is the leader right now there would be a deficit. Cons or Libs each party would be feeling the crunch that most of you forget the entire WORLD is facing right now, if you think Canada has the power to cause a world wide recession, you have more faith in this country then I do. And I have quite a bit.

If you don't want a deficit, that can be arranged, I'm sure. But say good-bye to everything, decent roads, health care, social programs, everything, you people seem to forget that the deficit is caused by spending to keep those things running.


Trent
said

Get an education people!!! This recession was going to happen no matter who was elected; NDP, Liberal, Conservatve. This is a global crisis and has nothing to do with the current federal government. As for corporate bailouts; although I do not believe that they should get one, it is the larger corporations that hire the most employees. These companies shut their doors and thousands are laid off. What needs to be done is that the CEO's, CFO's Presidents and such should have their monstrous bonuses and salaries scaled back, corporate jets should be grounded, etc... Once these companies have scaled back, then the bailouts can be addressed. Again, just my opinion.


Mark from Brampton
said

We currently have the best economy and best surplus of any of the G7.

Thanks Mr. Harper for not starting any new government programs, like a national Childcare!


Phil in Ottawa
said

The US goverment created this mess in 1977 with its implementation of the 'community reinvestment act' or CRA. The One, ie, Obama later became one of its key organizers which, as a matter of fact, he earlier denied but later recanted.

In essence, said CRA 'forced' lending institutions to lend to less than optimal lendees, ie sub-primer. The rest as they say, is history.

Now, the U.S.government is trying to 'fix' the problem with taxpayers' money. How sweet.

It's unfortunate that Canada, and the ROW for that matter, got caught up in this. But Harper is acting appropriately given the cards he's been handed. If throwng tons of money at jobs actually created jobs, then we'd have had close to full employment for years. Didn't happen, did it.


Bewildered in Toronto
said

How, I wonder, do paying down the debt and cutting taxes to the already overly-taxed constitute "squandering"?

Some folks are just in this to harpoon the PM... even though it does make them seem as brainwashed dullards.

It's a hard rain gonna fall and many will get, at least, a little damp.

Plan for better days.


nc
said

We could have huge deficits in the future. That's the way the wheel goes round.
If the feds help Ontario. They have to help the other provinces who are in need of help.
The wheel keeps on spinning until we are on the way to wealth again. Round and round we go.


Kris D
said

For all you defending Harper...

Look, nobody is saying Harper caused this mess. What they're saying is that Paul Martin had our financial house in stellar shape. Strongest finances in the world.

We were running 12 billion dollar surpluses in case something bad happened and we needed some cushion room.

In 2 years it's all been squandered. It was not necessary for Harper and Flaherty to waste the entire surplus. They could have cut INCOME taxes a little for everyone and still have had that cushion for a rainy day.

Because let me tell you, it's pouring right now and we're in no position to do anything but do into a big deficit. This, after last month’s election where the Cons said, we’ll never go into deficit and Canada is fine.

Heckuva job is right. I think Jim Flaherty is “technically” incompetent.





Whoever runs a deficit doesn't get my vote
said

I think it was pretty clear during the election campaign that the NDP would have run a deficit even in good times. Can you imagine how horrible the deficit situation would look had Dionne and his Green Shift gotten into power?

Having said this, I am a proud card carrying conservative and I think that there is absolutely no excuse for a deficit, no matter what the circumstances. My interest in politics was sparked my Preston Manning and the Reform Party, because the Reform Party was a fiscally conservative group of people who were fed up with big government and even bigger deficits.

I own a successful business and the reason it is successful is because of smart money management and never spending above our means. I'm not expecting anything from any government that I'm not expecting from myself.

Should this, or any government, go into deficit, they will not have my support when the next election is called.


Matty
said

This is a "think tank" possible scenerio. It could happen and then again it may not. Just more fearmongering.


Vlad Brecka Wetaskiwin, AB
said

People always talk about Bob Rae and his legacy BUT forget that when the Harris/Flaherty gang got kicked out of Ontario by the voters, they left behind a $6 billion debt. Cutting taxes willy nilly shows no vision of the future and the need for a contingency fund. The money lost in the GST cuts would be most welcome today.


FrankCanadian
said

Bah, humbug!
After predictions that oil would hit $150 last summer and move to $200 and beyond at year's end without even a mention of the crash of the last few months, lowers the credibility of futurist predictions to zero.
Sure there may be a deficit. And the Canadiens may win the Cup. And this winter may be really mild.
Expert economic predictions are as accurate as sports writers forecasting the outcome of the Grey Cup. Pretty much near zero, I'd say.
I'd rather listen to the weatherman, er, weatherperson make wrong predictions.



edd
said

Yup. Now we all don't know what the CCPA doesn't know.

Oh yea, they do know how to scare the public.


Peter, Hamilton
said

I can't get over all of the recent hysteria from the media and various interest groups. Of course, Canada and many other countries are facing important economic challenges and job losses are painful. However, the level of fear-mongering and doom-and-gloom speculation is out of control. The CPPA along with many media outlets simply can't be trusted to provide fair and intelligent discussion of the issues. Canada remains in a relatively strong economic and financial position - far better than most other countries.


Canuck in Bellingham WA
said

Grow up people

Everyone reading these comments knows that the tiresome pro liberal anti harper & pro conservative anti liberal whining is not going to change a thing.

Neither the liberals nor the conservatives are responsible for this mess, and neither is going to be complete heroes.

Yes, I have economics 101. I have no problem with a short term annual deficit, if it will temper the effects of a recession. Increase the GST if it gets to large. but spending on infrastructure is never a bad idea. Or do you want the odd bridge falling down like in the US? Its like owning a car. Its not sexy changing the oil like it is buying a new car, but only a moron doesn't spend the money they need to on it.


Joe Sanity
said

Kinda makes you miss Paul Martin doesn't it?


J.C.
said

You cannot blame any Canadian government in power at this time. THIS IS A WORLDWIDE PROBLEM - Not a Canadian only problem!!!
As far as this think tank is concerned,it means nothing. It is only guess and by golly. We must wait it out to see what will be and not get ourselves all worked up over some opinions!! And yes folks, that's what it is - Someone's opinion.There are many others that have a different opinion.
Only time will tell what will be.


Paul
said

I believe Government should look at other ways of incentive the economy besides adding big deficits. Why not cutting the red take of Federeal Employees that won't do nothing or waste of money thrown away in things not required? That will be a good start


Jjaycee98
said

And the propaganda machine rolls on! Like all you folks have never used credit in an emergency?

The parrots keep spouting the catch phrases and the negative trash talk. Those who just want to see their name in print toss out these articles as if they actually knew what they are talking about.




Jonathan
said

To those that say:

WE WANT GOVERNMENT TO START LAYING OFF NON ESSENTIAL GOVERNMENT WORKERS UNTIL THE ECONOMY IS BACK ON TRACK. DEFICITS SHOULD BE KEPT TO A MINIMUM.

You must realize that if government cuts back on spending, and lays people off it will only make the situation worse. More unemployed people who can not afford to spend, it creates a downward spiral that will be very hard to get out of. People just don't get it. A responsible government (Liberal, Conservative or otherwise) should invest in projects that keep people working. When the good times return they should be quick to act to cut back then and pay down any debt accumulated.


Tony
said

Wake up people and remember that Harper doesn't have the surplus that we could have had for mainly one reason.
We got a 2% reduction in our GST that we pay. For all those who want to bash him for not having the surplus, ask yourself one question.

Would you rather the GST still be at 7%?

You should know that the extra money that you have in your jeans amounts to want England is about to do and what the US will do through their stimulus package.
Except we are way ahead of them with our GST cut, and many of you don't even realize it.


Bluenose
said

What kind of lunatic suggests the problem would be any different if we elected a Liberal Govt. etc?
We see Obama elected in the US, and is now making movement towards far more spending than he said, so why are the lefties not complaining about that? If Liberals had of been elected, the problem would become even more serious here, with their nut case programs they proposed. Oh, right, I get it, Harper caused this whole world meltdown himself? It's obvious a new generation of people have completely lost touch with reality and common sense.


CWS Saskatoon
said

All I see is a lot of "armchair" economists all with different ideas on how to cure the ills of the world.


SK Man
said

Note that this is a 'liberal' outfit so are we surprised at their doom and gloom predictions? Besides, now we can start cutting out wasteful spending such as the gun registry...also remember who largely created the national debt...the Liberal Party...


Brian in Edmonton
said

I just want to know how much these 'think tankers' get paid.....I love how their number for minor recession and major recession for 2008/2009 both come to 1.4 billion!!


Roland Godin
said

I would invite Monsieur Duceppe to lead us through these difficult times,he has the statesmanship to resolve.
After he has directed us out of this mess I am sure he would return the stewardship to the federalist. Pride will not get us out of this one.


Alex (Toronto)
said

One can't blame Harper for the global financial crisis. The talk-tough-but-spend-anyway Conservatives may be in ideological lockstep with the borrow-and-spend Republicans, but the Conservatives haven't had enough time (or majority power in Parliament) to completely destroy the wealth built up during Liberal governments. All we can hold the Conservatives responsible for their lack of insight, claiming in October that there would be no recession after it was obvious that all major economies were facing recession, for problems leading up to the crisis, in which growth, jobs, and government surplus were squandered, leaving the government with few resources to deal with the crisis, and for the degree to which Canada's recession is worse than that of other countries, taking note of steeper declines in stock markets and the value of the currency relative to places that are supposedly in worse shape.

One is sympathetic to Premier Campbell's request for help, but his analysis is wrong. The commodity sectors don't have the same problem as the manufacturing sectors. What British Columbia needs is free trade in lumber. The US protectionist regime that Harper sold us out to is what is hurting the BC lumber industry. We need a government that can work productively and positively with the Americans in Canada's interest, i.e. without bowing down to one-sided agreements with the Americans. By contrast, the manufacturers need finance for their customers and suppliers. What's hurting them is the collapse of credit.


Big Mike
said

Reading these posts saddens me. It's disheartening to see how many very uneducated, emotion based opions get posted. Canada is caught up in a global crisis and is in better shape than almost every other nation, but apparently the "global" problem was caused by Flaherty and Harper? We must thank our lucky stars that the Liberals aren't steering the ship right now, Canada would surely end up morally and financially bankrupt.


Tim
said

I,m a small business person in a small town. As long as I get my bailout now that my business is shrinking that's all I care. Of course, I,m not giving up the Corporate Jet - it's non-negotiable - it took me weeks to glue it together and it looks to nice on the mantle. :-)


John E
said

I was just wondering what the annual interest would be on 46 Billion. Would my 2% reduction in GST cover it. I say Mr. Harper, if you're going back on your word of "No Defecit No Way" you might as well go for "BROKE"


Louisa
said

Yikes, that's the equivalent of $460 billion in the USA. This is not Stephen Harper's fault or the fault of his government, it's the greed-greed-greed of the Wall Street fat-cats and company CEOs who walked off with millions nay billions in "earnings" and just ordinary schmoes who thought they could live on home equity and credit cards forever and ever amen. It all had to come crashing down on us sooner or later. Well, it's here and it's now and it's the result of all this greed. It's payback time all right for all the excesses that people thought would never end.


Mel from Calgary
said

The affect of the world recession on Canada is Stephan Harper's job, he not only eliminated the surplus but also the 3 billion dollar cushion.

If he wants to cut spending then shut down operation photo-op in Afganistan.

At the recent conservative convention in Winnipeg he said the conservatives were going to be "pragmatic"...after almost three years it is about time.


Josh from Ontario
said

Canadian Politics 101

John: “oh I get it. no matter what, run a surplus.”

Joe: “That’s right, so let’s slash about 25 billion from health care and about another 20 billion from other transfers to provinces. oh, and lets reduce the civil service by 10%. that should get us to avoid a deficit, right?”

John: oh!, but the lefties would complain! they would cry up and down.”

Jack: “Not so, because Chretien did it in the 90's, and no one seemed to care.”

Joseph: “or is it they didn’t care because a LIBERAL did it. that makes it okay, right?

Jack: “Right, and it is also okay if a liberal runs a deficit, but heaven forbid that a conservative runs one.”

Josh: "so wait, trudeau ran up a huge deficit and got us big into debt, and no one cared, but mulroney was blamed for it. and chretien slashed billions from healthcare and mike harris was blamed for it. so, its only natural that Harper be blamed for this global recession he's getting us into a deficit over, right?"

Everyone: "right!"


TimT
said

It's astounding to me to see conservative supporters miss the point altogether.

Yes we -know- Harper didn't cause the global economic meltdown. For the love of god please get a grip!

It's all about how it is handled. Just about every economist disagreed with the gst cuts, and for good reason. It hasn't done much other than put a bigger hole in government dollars that could be better used in these times. But clearly, Harper was all about buying votes, not positioning the country to weather harsh economic times.

It's really too bad that after years of belt tightening to turn the finances back to sanity, Harper in a few short years squandered it stupidly. Now would be the time to leverage the well earned surplus in much smarter ways than idiotic vote buying gst cuts, and massive fistfuls of cash to corporations.

Absolutely brainless.


Shelley (South of Calgary)
said

Please, please, please, try doing it the other way around for once!!!!
Give the people and families the "bailout" money, we can spend it paying off our debts, and being consumers, wich will stimulate our economy, businesses will see higher consumer confidence, and the economy will right itself!!!


hk
said

What is with all you people wishing our government had not squandered this tax surplus? That’s your, mine and everyone’s money, NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S. The government is NOT a money making business. WHEN DID ALL YOU WHO BELIEVE IN A SURPLUS PAY FOR THEIR GASOLINE, HYDRO, HEATING, TELEPHONE ETC. IN ADVANCE JUST IN CASE YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY NEXT MONTH? NEVER. So what entitles governments to tax us extra in case there is a slow down in the economy?

All you people blaming the Harper government for a WORLD recession should GIVE THEIR HEADS A SHAKE. I’m surprised these same idiots have not blamed Obama, but I suppose that will happen a day after he is formally sworn in as President of the USA in January.

I’m personally not happy with the state of affairs our country got dragged into and am also losing money on my retirement savings, but I will not let myself become as negative as most of these bloggers. There will be better days ahead. I will just have to ride out this storm the same as all the others in the past.



Raymond
said

Reminds me of the cheers erupting from the Liberal war room every time the TSX plunged during the last election.

Harper cut the GST because Canadians were being over-taxed to the tune of $10B/year.

Live with it.



Gary
said

The economy will crash and burn regardless what governments due,be it liberal conservative whom ever. This happens every 10 years or so. If you want to blame anyone blame the Americans and their free for all lending practises, they have sucked the whole world into this mess.


L in Calgary
said

Wake up people, its a global rescession, you cannot blame this on Harper!!!! The government now needs to deal with it, they did not create it! They gave tax cuts when times were good, now they are going to have to cut etc when times are bad, its not like this is the first time in history the world has experienced a recession. How about stop blaming the government? Since this is happening world-wide it is not just one thing that caused it, it was a bunch of bad descisions that crashed together to create this, at least Canada is in a better position than most, be happy for that. Oh, and by the way, there are still help wanted signs all over Calgary for anyone worried about their job.


blc ontario
said

For all those who did not welcome the cut in GST, I suggest you keep track when you buy something and send the extra 2 percent to the government to reduce the impending deficit. All parents who do not need the $100 per month child credit send it back for deficit reduction.

How can these people predict what the deficit will be 3 years in advance?

Here's a suggestion let's all stop watching the news, buying newspapers, magazines until the media learns to report facts not what if's or maybes. No one knows how this economic downturn is all going to roll out.

Maybe we should get some psychic opinions they are probably more credible than a lot of the opinion givers with political bias.


Jay
said

So, let me get this straight. The biggest surplus the Liberals ran was what, $10billion? So, assuming EVERYTHING the Liberals did on the fiscal front (which was a carbon copy of what Alberta CONSERVATIVES and REFORMERS advocated) carried over to today, we would still be in massive deficit territory. If this study was accurate (and I highly suspect it is anything but) then it doesn't matter what Harper did or did not do - we would be in a deficit either way. Sort of takes the wind out of the Liberal sails, doesn't it?

Let us consider the source of this so-called study before we flaunt it. If the Fraser Institute did a study and said "no deficit" you lefties would be screaming bloody murder against it and telling us all to look at the source of the information.

The grand result of all this? Everyone has a crystal ball. No one knows what the future may bring. But the numbers this study flaunts shows that no reversal of tax cuts (or Harper's PROMISE KEEPING) would have prevented this.


K D
said

I really wish those of you over on the right wing would PAY ATTENTION. We are not blaming Harper for the global economic crisis, we are blaming him because A) He claims to have seen this coming for many years and B) Instead of taking REAL action, he literally THREW the surplus away on cuts to consumption tax (which every ACTUAL ECONOMIST on planet earth warned Harper is a stupid idea), and cuts to his rich coporate friends. The revenue from these stupid votebuying cuts literally could have staved off a deficit, but instead, he's gone the way that every Conservative government in Canadian history has gone - into the Red. Now please, righties - pay attention to what is said and stop spinning our words. Leave that to Harper.


David Dunlop
said

Last week an "expert" said $4.3B now it's in the 40's I guess they are both using different types of tea leaves. The best of the best global economists have no idea where we are going because this situation we are in has never happened before. For all they know we could be OK within 3 months and all of this doom and gloom headline predictions will be forgotten.


Gail (Hamilton)
said

Blaming the Conservatives for this global problem or how they are spending our money does nothing to curb the voracious socialization of the planet. We're all in the well together without a lifeline to help pull us out. Welcome to the New World Order brought to you by the folks that think the world will end in 10 years if we don't fix the environment, and want to lower our economies to third world level. The only losers are the people who want to work for a living, not wait for government handouts, and that means the majority of us. The powerful and rich will continue to control our lives, and in case you haven't noticed, it's happening now and has been in the elitist works for years.


Lloyd Cam
said

The conservatives did not create the meltdown. This is just an opinion, speculation for the sake to sensationalize the news.


Trevor
said

K D wrote:
"I really wish those of you over on the right wing would PAY ATTENTION. We are not blaming Harper for the global economic crisis, we are blaming him because A) He claims to have seen this coming for many years"

Actually they did say this was coming a long time ago and have been introducing stimulus to the economy for a couple of years now.

"and B) Instead of taking REAL action, he literally THREW the surplus away on cuts to consumption tax (which every ACTUAL ECONOMIST on planet earth warned Harper is a stupid idea)"

Actually a cut in consumption taxes encourages people to spend money in order to see the savings. Hiding money under the mattress isn't going to help the economy. Don't forget that the GST cut was an election promise, I'm sure you would have pointed out the broken promise if they hadn't cut it. As for the part about EVERY economist, come on.

"and cuts to his rich coporate friends."

The tax cuts and provincial transfers that were introduced helped every Canadian, rich or poor. Harper isn't a rich man, unlike former Liberal PM's.

"The revenue from these stupid votebuying cuts literally could have staved off a deficit, but instead, he's gone the way that every Conservative government in Canadian history has gone - into the Red."

As I said earlier, if the government hadn't returned the 12+ billion dollars to taxpayers we would probably already be in a worse position. The government has been proactive about this situation. Besides, according to this report it still wouldn't have been enough to avoid deficit.

"Now please, righties - pay attention to what is said and stop spinning our words. Leave that to Harper."

Form your opinions based on facts and maybe people won't dispute them.


zwinky
said

The Conservatives GST cut was a gift to the rich at the expense of everyone else.

There's nothing wrong per se with any tax reduction that is "universal" but do the math and you'll see how the GST cut is a tax savings that doesn't amount to a hill of beans for most regular people over the course of time.

Here's the simple mathematical facts:

You need to spend $50000 on GSTable goods to achieve $1000 of GST saved.
($50000 * .07 = $3500)
($50000 * .05 = $2500)
net GST saved $1000

$1000 is a good chunk of money and no one would ever turn it down but LOOK AT HOW MUCH YOU HAVE TO SPEND TO GET THAT $1000 in GST savings... this is the key that eludes many less wealthy proponents of the GST cut - they will never see a significant savings over time.

For everyone who hollers that they know a regular guy who saved big on a vehicle purchase think about the fact that regular people usually purchase a vehicle only every 5 to 10 years or more and thus their large one time GST savings is diluted over that period.

You can bet that for every wealthy person who saves mega bucks on some big ticket luxury purchase there are hundreds of thousands or even millions of people who, like myself, save 13 cents once a month on toilet paper and can't exactly cheer that the GST cut gave us any significant savings.

It's the wealthy guy who can spend regularly on big luxuries that saves the most GST...simple math.

I've always thought that Conservatives are most concerned about serving the wealthy and the GST cut was proof enough for me.


Grow up, get over it, and build a farm
said

If you call this a "global crisis" yet I can name 79 countries not effected by it. If you NEED to give it a label, maybe Western Crisis.

If you all didn't believe in this Consumerism market, we wouldn't be worrying about money, etc.

Oh and by the way; 21% have spelling mistakes; where the hell did you get away with a diploma?!?


Joe Sanity
said

Gail in Hamilton:"Welcome to the New World Order brought to you by the folks that think the world will end in 10 years "

Nope, brought to you by George , Dick and the GOP gang who though it was a good idea to deregulate the banking system.


Corey in Manitoba
said

A question to all the people praising Martin for his surpluses. Since Martin was robbing the Employement Insurance to create artifical surpluses, what would have happened in the event that they would have had to start paying out large sums like they will now. Would have they slashed transfer payments to the provinces again? Education? Health Care? The liberal surpluses would have evaporated pretty quick as well.


John not going to listen to fortune tellers
said

This isn't news. This is something that hasn't happened. It's stuff like this that the media dishes out that causes things to happen though, because it instills fear for the 'what if'. Reminds me of how people get a prediction from a fortune teller and then make it happen simply because they act accordingly.


In the red
said

Jim "in the red" Flahtery strikes again! At least he's keeping it consistent, can't say we never saw this coming. Just check out the resume.

I hope Canada has overdraft protection.


K D
said

Trevor - You are wrong. Cutting consumption taxes does NOT encourage consumers to spend more. In times of economic downturn, consumers tend to become more frugal. Insinuating that saving 2 cents on the dollar encourages spending is naive. This is what Harper wants you to believe, but he is pulling the wool over your eyes, as he is to all Canadians. Luckily there are still a few of us who see through his facade. And yes - even Conservative economists and think tanks encouraged Harper to follow the Liberal plan of cutting INCOME TAX, not CONSUMPTION TAX.


Seth in Alberta
said

Ok lefties, I want to try and get this straight. You think that Harper should have continued to run a huge surplus (overtaxation) which would put less money into peoples pockets (overtaxation)? So that way the people would be even more cautious with their money right now then they already are and that this would help the economy?

Did I get that right? Because that's what I've been reading.

And you think that Harper cutting taxes and bad programs (let's face it if you're a good artist you don't need funding) is bad for the economy because more money in peoples pockets???(scratching head)....this is the part I get confused by your thinking because according to you this is a bad thing.

Really if you feel that strongly about it, take 2% of everything you spend and send it to the government, if we get more tax cuts send a letter saying that you don't agree with this and that you wish to continue to be taxed; in fact state in that letter that you wish for your personel taxes to be even higher. You don't want to run a deficit so please stop using the programs that a deficit keeps running (police, fire, ambulance, hospitals, etc.). Only take gravel roads to work because without a deficit that's what our roads would start to amount to.

If you feel that strongly about it this should not be an issue.


Lowell
said

People keep saying that Harper didn't know we going to enter into a recesionary cycle even though he claims to be an economist. One red flag was the escalating price of oil. It is has preceded pretty much every major recession we have had. All during the election campaign I heard Harper say time and time again there would be no deficit even though it was evident what was happening in the US was going to impact on us. Well now that the recession is here, rather than acting quickly, I see on the news that Harper wants to wait until well into 2009 to setup a stimulus package. A wait and see attitude with the US. I am sorry folks this is not leadership and I am guessing that despite the liberal's leaders flaws, he still had a better idea of how to handle this situation. Advocating the green economy was a good start and probably jacking up the GST to the 7% level would also help.


Scott
said

The Conservatives only answer in Question Period is, it would have been worse with a carbon tax.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

@ THE LIBERAL HEAD-POPPERS:

Remember to breathe as you incessantly ramble on about how PM Harper hoodwinked the Canadian electorate and is now going to kill us all with his lies, deception, and wacky budgetary/fiscal policies. You're going to give yourselves a heart attack!

Instead of wigging out over the biased prognostications of an acknowledged left-wing "think tank" (perhaps an oxymoron), try sticking to the global economic facts as they relate to your country, as we presently sit in a better seat than any other nation.

Given that Liberal Leader Dion got creamed in the RECENT election, it's probably advisable to dial down the whiny partisan rhetoric.

It's unhealthy...and pointless.


Gary
said

Never fails, Conservative times are always hard times.
We have a chance to invest in green tech. With the manufacturing industry in Ont. collasping the gov't could invest in building green technology that the world would buy. But that will never happen. Harper and his ilk have no vision whatsoever. We will simply watch the rest of the world walk right by us again.


PrairieDog
said

Maybe..if there is a "major recession"......maybe we will be "46B" in deficit....maybe the left wing think tanks could come up with better scare tactics than what they've used for three decades.....

or..maybe the people of Canada realize that they have a government that lowers taxes, helps small businesses, helps trade-people, .....

My bet is on the latter...I think people should look beyond their own back yards and see that we have it better here than most any on the planet. Wake UP!!


Edmonton John
said

Cons...how could we be overtaxed if we still carried a national debt? We would not be overtaxed until the debt was paid off.

Chretien and Martin made huge strides paying down the debt with the 'surplus' - and yes, some people shamefully got sticky fingers, but that was then and it's been dealt with - and since Harper got in, he has continued to pay down the debt.

If he had kept the GST he could have paid the debt down faster if the economy continued to fare well, otherwise use it now to help stimulate the economy, or do what the UK is doing and cut taxes as we approach a recession.

As it is we have no option but to run up our debt again, and now we have lost the means to repay it. We will have to restore the GST when the dust settles.

The bottom line is that the Liberals did not overtax us. They taxed us just the right amount to keep the economy growing, and the debt shrinking, with enough left over for a rainy day.

Now THAT is fiscal management!


James - Eh!
said

You've got to remember QP is not where the real business of parliament takes place. It would be nice if questions were not attacks, and the answers weren't comebacks.

Harper and Flaherty didn't give us the real sitaution in the election. No contest.

Unfortunately, they are the current government but until the next election, its time to leave the barbs behind and get on with coming up with solutions.


Jen,BC
said

Cutting the gst and spending all the reserves Martin had stored up to ride a crisis like we're in now, is the most irresponsible thing Harper has done. If he hadn't been so lusting after a majority, and giving, giving giving just to get votes, the whole country would be in better shape now. He was asleep at the wheel.Thank God he does not have a majority, he would be dangerous. He could do with a smart finance minister and some wise/frugal close advisers. Deficits are not the answer.


Peter Daga
said

Please Mister Minister, Taxpayesr need a bailout too.
we are suffering through:- increased Property taxes, increased hydro rates, incresed vehicle ownership costs, increased garbage collection costs. Job opportunities have shrunk and continue to shrink. Most of us have no job security, are unemployed or underemployed. Jobs in the construction field are "limited".


Allan M
said

During the recent election, the Conservatives said repeatedly that there would be no deficit. Here we are, not even 2 months after, and we're the clear reality that there will be deficits, possibly very large ones.

I think the Liberals have a responsibility to take down the government and hold a new election now, before the Conservatives can do any more damage. I know we just had one, but the damage done to Canada's financial situation thus far is clear indication that it's going to continue or get worse. We just had an election, but the extreme circumstances that would dictate another one being needed so soon are obvious. Enough is enough.

Dion: If you're ever going to have some guts, now would be good. Throw the bums out!


Michael Kennedy
said

On a serious note.... looks at every single economy of any other nation. They didnt predict it, and nor did we. Is it prudent to blame every single government in the world? We certainly look alot better then the economies of Germany, Britan and the U.S. Constant complaining wont do anything, finding solutions will.


Bob Beausoleil - Ontario
said

This is not a Canadian problem, it is a world wide problem. Canada is and was in a good financial position, but that said Canada is not an island unto itself and immune from world influence. Rather than seeing the opposition working constructively to help the Conservatives work on the best action plan they dirty themselves in opportunity to put down others. Would it not be nice if this highly paid group work towards positive solutions for all rather than throw dirt in an attempt to try to better themselves.

In any solution, one works on the basis it will not be as bad as people think then if more money or action needs to be taken that action can follow.

Grow up gentlemen and do your jobs in a constructive and positive manner.


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