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Ottawa to buy $50B in mortgages, hopes to spur loans
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Wed. Nov. 12 2008 10:36 PM ET
The federal government is purchasing another $50 billion in residential mortgages to further stabilize the lending industry and encourage lower interest rates, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty announced Wednesday.
The Canadian economy has stalled and is on the brink of a recession. The government hopes that its cash injection will keep consumers spending and keep businesses afloat.
The announcement follows a similar move last month in which Ottawa bought $25 billion in mortgages.
The combined mortgage debt, both purchased through the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corp. (CMHC), will bring the maximum value of bought securities to $75 billion.
"At a time of considerable uncertainty in global financial markets, this action will provide Canada's financial institutions with significant and stable access to longer-term funding," Flaherty said at a press conference in Toronto.
"This extension of the program to purchase insured mortgages will further support the availability of credit, which will benefit Canadian households, businesses and the economy.
"In addition, it will earn a modest rate of return for the Government with no additional risk to the taxpayer."
Flaherty said the government "will not allow Canada's financial system, which has been ranked as the soundest in the world, to be put at risk by global events."
Patrick Grady of Global Economics LTD told CTV News, "the banking system would weather this storm whether the government provided assistance or not. But what it would do is cut back on loans it made."
Will the move help average Canadians?
It is hoped that the announcement will be a boon to entrepreneurs like Joseph Saikaley, the owner of an upscale hair salon in Ottawa.
He said despite the economic downtown, business at his salon, Byblos, is booming.
Saikaley says he wants to expand his operation, but can't get a loan from the banks.
"We have been trying to expand for the last few months, even trickling it down to a minor renovation and there is just not one dollar to be given out or lent," he told CTV News.
Flaherty says that the $50 billion in mortgage purchases should allow banks to start lending again with greater ease.
"It is up to private sector lenders to keep on doing their jobs, making loans to credit worthy people and enterprises of all sizes," he said.
But Saikaley isn't hopeful that the banks will start passing on the loans anytime soon.
"Put it in the hands of people that will do something with it, the banks are doing absolutely nothing will it," he said.
Last month, Canada's big banks lowered their prime lending rates following the announcement about the $25 billion buyout.
Not a bailout, gov't says
The Tories have been quick to indicate that the deal to buy mortgages is an asset swap, not a bailout.
The idea is that banks can take good assets, in this case the mortgages, and turn them into cash -- which can then be made available to people seeking mortgages or to small business.
The "high-quality" assets are already guaranteed by the Canadian government, Flaherty said.
"It is an efficient, cost-effective and safe way to support lending in Canada at a time of extraordinary strain in global credit markets," he said.
Despite the global financial crisis, Flaherty said he still expects to report a budget surplus.
"We're still on track for a small, and I emphasize small, surplus in the current fiscal year," he said.
Meanwhile, the Bank of Canada said Wednesday it will inject an added $8 billion into Canada's tight money markets.
The Bank said it plans to introduce a Canadian Dollar Term Loan Facility (TLF) in four auctions of $2 billion each in the coming weeks.
Under the plan, qualifying financial institutions will be able to offer non-mortgage loans as collateral -- meaning they can offer most loans currently on their books.
With a report from CTV's Robert Fife
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I applaud the budget, even though Health Care and education may stay unscathed. Sadly this cannot last and I worry to later this year where cuts will become enviable. If anything, this provides the Wildrose Alliance plenty of ammo when an election is called.


Comments are now closed for this story
Allan M
said
gullchasedship
said
Gary
said
Sylvain
said
Steven is reallity finally hitting home??????????
Beth
said
Cam in Grande Prairie
said
Rob
said
Gary
said
Tricky be tricked
said
Paul from Pickering
said
Ed in Alberta
said
Jason
said
Marcus
said
Overpaid CEO
said
"...Why don't they bail themselves out?"
"...CEO's making million dollar bonuses. Cut that out before bailing them out. Let them help themselves"
...it isn't a bail out. The CDN banks aren't in trouble. Canada buys some of their mortgages and in doing so the banks have fresh money to lend out to keep our economy solvent because there is a liquidity crisis.
Colour Me Mad as Hell
said
As a taxpayer I am furious on the concept of greed and idocity running our financial house.
The Govt is going down the same Looking glass hole as our cousins to the south.
Does anyone study basic economics anymore?
...
James
said
The Big Three auto makers are about to declare bankruptcies. Even the Asian auto makers are reporting significant decreased sales. Consumer confidence is so shaken that retailers are having all of their sales before Christmas.
We have not seen the likes of this type of economic turmoil in decades and still the government is whistling past the graveyard. I am not sure why the government sees the need to play down the collaspe of the world's ecomomies and say that Canada will still have a modest surplus this year. The government is misleading Canadians as to the secerity of the downturn
To Beth, this is not a correction. A correction might mean a drop of 10%. This is a crash, meaning 40% or more of the market is gone for good.
Here's a novel idea; forgive debt and start again!
D.B.
said
Mike in Colborne
said
I suggest people who want to understand whats going on google the Federal Reserve's report on Modern Money Mechanics.
David Smith
said
A bent over Tax payer
said
Joe Canuck
said
GTA
said
DCR-Toronto
said
...The government may even make money on this, as real estate prices start to rise in the coming years.
Paul R. Martin
said
The money will be borrowed in capital markets primarily from pension funds. Pension funds need high quality investments. As Ottawa's and CMHC's borrowing costs are less than that of the Banks, Ottawa will make a profit. As the assets are matched by liabilities, this transaction is "off balance sheet" and does not put the government into a deficit. As the mortgages are currently insured by CMHC, there is no change in the "risk" to the government.
Matt
said
Normally all the banks are a bit off in their holdings, they will have either more or less cash on hand then they need. Think of the typical mismatch between the day your paycheck arrives and the day you pay a particular bill.
Normally the solution is they will lend or borrow from each other at a inter-bank lending rate. What is happening now is they are hesitating to lend to each other money, which means they pay higher rates to borrow, or the money simply isn't available. This hasn't happened yet, but the banks are concerned it might.
So what the banks NEED to do is increase their cash reserves. This means when you give them any money, for example you make a mortgage payment, they simply won't lend that money out to someone else, or if they do they need to do it at a higher interest rate.
When the banks stopped lending cash to each other, it started forcing them to stop lending to people. All the government is doing here is buying the mortgages (which are still being paid) so the banks have the money so the whole system keeps running.
The great thing about this is the government, at least the Canadian government, is likely going to profit from this assistance.
Laz in Finance
said
People simply don't read the article
said
...
JP
said
Mickey
said
And how exactly shall banks now pay off bad dept should large numbers of people lose their jobs and default on their mortgages? Chances are in that scenario the house market will be extremely poor and those houses won't sell. They used their insurance money to cover mortgage losses in order to make more loans.
KJ in Kingston Ontario
said
Jim
said
Why the hell should they do that? All that does is is reward those that seem to have no comprehension of how to live within their means. Why should the rest of us that haven't racked up tons of debt be penalized for your bad choices and lack of money management skills?
Jenna
said
Jamie
said
Call me frustrated - in SW ont
said
Steve - Montreal
said
I just hope they are held accountable for these hand outs are spent.
Anne Ottawa
said
I agree with this move but I also think the auto makers need a loan as well. that is bad news if they go under.
Barry in Saskabush
said
Market Madness Rollercoaster in Vancouver
said
$50 bn now, $25bn last month. For a country with 1/10 the population of the US, this smacks of the equivalent of a $750 bn bailout figure. Our government says it's a swap, not a bailout. And the difference is?
Well, fortunately, the big companies going bankrupt are American companies. Maybe the Hudsons Bay can buy out Circuit City and Best Buy as they go belly up and return them to Canadian ownership.
Pepper
said
HOWEVER: The Canada Pension Plan and every pension plan workers have own a large chunk of shares in Candaian Banks. It is in every Canadaian's interest to make sure the financial system is strong to assure our pensions are safe.
Also, the debt being purchased is a reasonably high grade debt. These are National Housing Authority mortgages...not subprime debt. These debts are already governement backed, so the government taking over the debt really is no additional risk to the tax payer.
FreakAlert
said
I am curious, what reaction would the people have if they knew the true deceit pulled off by the international bankers and their technocrats.
Kat
said
Exiled Canadian
said
...As others pointed out, this is not a bail-out of failing institutions. This is a move to add credit liquidity to the markets by purchasing INSURED mortgages. The government is basically holding these so the banks can free up money that would otherwise be tied down by all these mortgages. This is not just so the housing market can start up again, it is also to provide credit to small businesses that rely on short-term loans. Once the economy stabilizes, the government will place these mortgages back into the hands of private institutions at a profit.
Paul from Pickering, please show me where you found that these are "high-risk" mortgages. I can't seem to find that anywhere.
Nick in Gatineau
said
They just pushed the pile to the neighbour yard - Including all responsibility. ...
Call me Uncle Pablo
said
2) "This extension of the program to purchase insured mortgages will further support the availability of credit, which will benefit Canadian households, businesses and the economy.
Where’s the benefit here? Can someone help me to understand? Is the credit at no cost to the taxpayers? Government giving out our money to the banks to trade with and you’re saying it’s beneficial to us? Us as in taxpayers or the small clique of bank’s executives and the likes? Am I in a different planet or what?
"In addition, it will earn a modest rate of return for the Government with no additional risk to the taxpayer."
I hope that I’m not over complaining here? What’s happening is like some one who stole my money and then turns back to lend it to me at “a modest rate of return with no additional risk to me."
GHW
said
What’s around the corner you ask? This crisis will usher in a new age of socialism all thanks to human greed and stupidity. On the whole, it’s our nature! Unless regulated people become corrupt. The problem with socialism is the people running it are just as susceptible. Where does this leave us? Hooped! Well that’s too pessimistic. We need a delicate balance between capitalism and socialism. Canada and Europe are on the right track but the reason we’re in trouble too is because our financial systems all tied too closely with the U.S. who ... is dragging us all down.
Alan
said
Sly
said
you said to help out small business in Canada well let me tell you that I tried to get $$$$$$$$$ from bank'S and the answer they give us is THEY CANT DO ANYTHING because of the SITUATION SOUTH OF THE BOARDER ...
GP
said
Gail (Hamilton)
said
MuskyBuck
said
This government is making mockery out of you and everyone else that has to pay their debts.
They'll hand over our entire future to banks and auto makers.
Meanwhile most, not all, of you will sit here and argue the merits of this government vs. a different one.
This is wholly brutal governance, this is exactly what I hate about backwards thinking.
If I were PM, my quote would be this. "If the banks and the automakers are hungry....let them eat cake."
I would open those closed auto plants and give them to the auto unions...I would dissolve the unions by gifting them their own electric car company, providing cars to Canada and the world.
I would take back the right to print our own money and screw the world bank just as much as they've been soaking and screwing you and I since previous to the first World War.
Then....I'd make history and politics a mandatory requirement of education in this country, along with proper health and physical education classes so that our kids never get to be as uneducated, gullible, fat and lost as most Canadians are now.
Or, maybe I'd just screw off to Trinidad/Tobago where I could live under a little dictator in relative peace and quite.
BB in B.,C.
said
GHW
said
Greg
said
As far as I can see, it's a sound move and I don't understand what all the uproar is over it. The system is working exactly the way it should be, and we're lucky to have such a mechanism in place for times like this when it's needed.
camt
said
PVT
said
If consumers keep spending too much on things they don't need with money they don't have, soon there will be no money for the things they actually do need (ie: mortgages).
Jason
said
A great majority of the people commenting are missing the point entirerly. This is not a bail out! This is not a sub prime buy out!! ... The government buys the morgatges, then they own the asset. Then the credit reluctant banks are able to exstend credit to "Joe six pack" when it comes time to take a buisness loan or renew a mortgage. There is not mortgage crash here in Canada. These mortgages are some of the safest in the world. Canadains tend to have far more equity in their homes than the Americans do. Ask yourself this. How many Canadian banks have failed??? None! How many are likely to fail?? None!!! Enough with the gloom and doom. We live in a beutiful country, full of great people, wonderful places, world class resources (not just oil), a very stable banking system, and a stable democracy. Love it or leave it.
Allan
said
Pat_from_Mississauga
said
1. This is a very bad move. Simply pumping 50 billion into the banks by buying mortgages is no guarantee that this money will then be available to Canadians. It will sure no longer be available to the government, which may need that money desperately if revenues drop.
2. ... Obama has nothing to do with this topic. Furthermore, he has not even taken office yet! ...
MurrayI
said
Scott in Victoria
said
With inflation increasing, unemployment increasing, boomers nearing retirement, and too many houses on the market, this problem needs to be tackled in another way than buying out debt.
J.C.
said
Try going back to the banks after this government action takes effect and see what they say then. If they still tell you re south of the border problems ask them why when our government just did buyouts for them. If they give you the same response contact your MP and ask why.
These government actions are taken to help people like you that are in such a position. To free up cash to lend to good credit applications.
David Chan
said
B Forrest
said
Phil
said
Nick in Gatineau
said
The automakers are in trouble - Unions brought that on with 20 + years of collective bargaining agreements that were irrespective of those companies' well-being. You want a raise, cut your numbers - that's the new reality of the industry. Buzz Hargrove said it as well.
Reality bites, especially when 20 years ago everyone laughed at those who said it would happen. No-one is laughing anymore.
elizabeth
said
Not Impressed!
said
Leo, ON.
said
Lies, Lies, we all new that just the right wing people were hoping but there goes Harper and Flaherty BIG LIES again and again...
The media is much to blame as well for NOT investigating all those lies, oh I'm sorry the media are Harper's best friends!!!
How in the hell can they, Fed. Govern., keep Canada from having a negative BUDGET.
Already they've spent $80billion of dollars, not bad for a country that was suppose to be fairing out the down economy...
Very Sad... Conservatives has always screwed this Country why should it be different now!!!
Shamaro
said
We can all scream and cry about our banks and CEO's, but we do have the best banking system in the world and Canadians and Canada thus far have been cushioned quite well from the big global economic blow.
Sure there is going to be lots of controversy over what Harper and Flaherty did, however no matter what they do, Canadians are going to criticize the government. If we didn't, it would be very UnCanadian of us.
Now, could you only imagine if the government, who have taken the $75billion in mortages, said to us, that the interest rate on those mortgages would be zero percent for one year, to help us get our finances in order, well that would music to all our ears, plus it would allow many of us to pay down a nice little amount of money on the principle of the mortgage and would free up even more cash into the system. But then again, that's only wishful thinking.
Alex (Toronto)
said
The alternative is that banks will be immediately forced to foreclose on homeowners, not because the homeowners can't keep up their mortgage payments, but because the banks don't have money to lend, so when mortgages expire, the banks won't be able to renew mortgages. Dumping thousands of homes and condos on the market all at once will depress prices, which will trigger more foreclosures. Many thousands more people become homeless and investors and homeowners collectively lose hundreds of billions of dollars.
So we can pay a few dollars a paycheque in taxes, or we can see hundred-thousand-dollar hits to the value of our homes and RSPs, not counting the many who will no longer have homes.
SW ont
said
For all this talk of economic downturn and gloom, already I can't get a parking spot at the mall as we all seem to still be ramping up for the Season.
Greg from Calgary
said
The government is not lending money to the banks. It's buying YOUR mortgage from them. That frees up money for the banks to lend to others.
What's so hard about understanding that?
Rebecca in Edmonton
said
Keith, Halifax
said
Doug BC
said
And perhaps,any country that sees "profit" as a dirty word is already a few steps behind.Who do people think "the banks" are? WHo do they think owns "the banks"?? And what do you think "the banks" do with all those "excess profits"??
"Joe Six Pack" owns most of the banks in Canada.Those shares can be bought by anyone.And the profits go to those who bought shares.If you bought the shares and are living on the dividends you might have a different view as to whether or not your return on that investment is excessive."Joe Six Pack" owns the a part of the banks just like he owns parts of every other "publicly listed" company in the country.And he gets a share of the profits.Perhaps,if you think the profits are high,you should stop living on credit cards and buy a few extra shares yourself.It is,after all,the poor use of credit in the USA that started all of these problems.
It's also important to recognize the difference between a bailout,a loan,and an investment.
This is GLOBAL.It is not a Made in Canada problem.We were doing the right thing by paying down debt.But it couldn't solve the problem until we paid down more,and until other debtor nations did the same thing.
Debt makes slaves of nations and families.
bonnie
said
Nick in Ottawa
said
Long term approach: Stabilizing our economy is of the utmost importance. This is not an *I* society, this is a federation. WE. we need to secure our long term financial health to a comfortable level. I am just glad those with the short sighted opinions aren't running this country. If you want to run debt free, you will have a very sluggish economy, meaning the short sighted people will lose more on their RRSP's, pension funds, mutual funds and other internationally tied investments.
These banks provide millions of Canadians with loans (mortgages) for homes. Average home prices are $300,000 across the country. Multiply that by the millions of homes/cottages in Canada, not including infrastructure (Businesses getting loans), and you can see why a plan as this makes sense.
This isn't a wall street bailout, this isn't a slush fund for the TSX. This is an insurance policy.
LONG TERM people, long term...
Jason
said
Paul R. Martin
said
Stephanie O
said
Paul, Kitchener ON
said
As for this mortgage buy out. The gov't is buying mortgages that are insured by CMHC or GE both are mortgage insurance companies that pretty much all of us with a mortgage pay a premium in our mortgage for. It basically guarantees the mortgage for the bank and now the Gov't. What this means is the interest you pay on your mortgage will now partially go to our Gov't. So a $75 billion investment that has an average 20 year guaranteed return is pretty smart. Anyone with an investment would love a guaranteed return.
All the banks get is reduction of risk on their books which will allow them to offer lower interest on loans and mortgages. Plus it will encourage more foreign investment.
do you see the cycle...if not here it is. Banks profit from foreign investment with reduced risk they look good to foreign investors so more invesment in our banks. Making them more stable and thus avoiding what alot of people believe will be a financial meltdown in canada similar to the US.
Ignorance is not bliss
said
Some of us need to do more research rather than go on the media "panic" bandwagon.
kate
said
Cam
said
Basil from Montreal
said
These mortgages will be recorded as an asset on our yearly balance sheet, and should not affect the surplus (or deficit!) in and of themselves. Mindlessly lowering the GST might, but not buying mortgages from banks.
In the long run, assuming that actions like this continue to keep our economy from imploding, these mortgages will be worth more than were paid for them, which might help the government keep a surplus.
Dave - Alberta
said
American in Canada
said
We've been scammed.
AR
said
Craig B
said
The Conservative populous craps on Liberals for "overtaxing" and running surpluses, so instead they lower taxes, kill the surplus, stunt debt repayment and then go on and spend $50B.
Welcome to massive deficit spending by the economically stunted Conservative mindset.
I guess Harper and co. can just blatantly lie ala Mike Harris about how big the deficit really is when the time comes.
Wasn't it a month ago Harper was commending Canada's banking system for its stability? Did something change?
Way to go Canada!
Gail, another American in Canada
said
Sean - Toronto
said
The national economy is the big winner here.... not bank CEO's, etc. Some of you people really need to get a life!!!
M
said
sanguine
said
RIPPED OFF CONSUMER
said
I was just at a major bank and they want to charge me upwards of 12 percent interest for a loan!
I have bullet proof credit and have NEVER defaulted, missed a payment or made any credit errors in my life.
The banker even acknowledged that this travesty is the premium consumer loan rate that they offer their best customers!!
Adding "credit liquidity" is an absurdly one-sided "help" if consumers are being RIPPED OFF with the huge interest rates they are being charged in spite of all the recent drops.
I'm betting all government aid (read - OUR TAX DOLLARS) will be used by the banks to keep their MASSIVE profit margins and executive compensation packages intact.
boy am I TIRED of hearing how bad THEY have it!
Kevin in Toronto
said
Without the money, banks wouldn't go under - they just wouldn't lend as much money.
A bailout saves one from bankruptcy. This isn't the same thing at all.
When people can borrow (within reason); they say, buy a house, or better yet, have a house built. This then creates jobs, which causes those workers to make money to spend, to then create more jobs, all creating tax revenue.
It's about stimulating a slumping economy - not about bailing anyone out.
This government purchase is in everyone's best interests. This partisan rhetoric about broken promises is useless and more importantly complete and utter poppycock.
From Vancouver
said
Kowai
said
This will boost the economy help out the auto industry and put a stop to the bank managers getting enormous bonuses and in the end the banks can go back to making money off the mortgages when they kick back in after the three year freeze.
Oh NO !!!! I forgot!!!
The rich would have to sit on all there money and not make enormous profits for the next three years for this to work.
Oh well it was just a passing thought
Kowai
Pat_from_Mississauga
said
Paul, Kitchener, ON
said
Yes we invest $75 billion in to Canadian Banks. Which in turn will stimulate the Canadian economy. I'm all for saving jobs but not for saving the auto industry which is an international business and which will not directly benefit the Canadian economy in the same way as the mortgage buy back does.
MuskyBuck
said
The government's US$700-billion financial rescue package will not purchase troubled assets from banks as originally planned this would have taken too much time, and the Treasury instead will buy stakes in banks and press them to resume normal lending.
Can you believe they're just handing the cash over and hoping they'll spend it right?
I'll admit that what we're doing is at least more transparent but I've still got a problem with bailing them out.
This entire society is based on credits. It's been there since the banks have started and that's great....but my point is that type of business is now disrupting normal society worldwide.
And now we're going to prop it up instead of like any other business, die, evolve start again.
Our annual income tax is hoax that we've been paying for a hundred years now.
It doesn't pay for our infrastructure it goes to interest on that unlimited account the banks set up for us, the US etc over 100 years.
Let them die and let this credit business become less entrusive in society.
With them goes our and almost every other countries national debt.
Just a thought.
Fraser
said
The government is buying good mortgages that are insured by "the government" anyway [c.m.h.c.-canada mortgage and housing corporation].
This frees up the ability to lend out monies for mortgages and small businesses to keep the economy flowing.
The government is basically in very loose terms a mortgage holder that is making money [being the interest made on a mortgage] just like the banks do. So do ya think Canadian taxpayers could benefit? Duh!
[End of rant and frustration]
Lee Tanner
said
This is not a bailout. Simply put, it's CMHC buying mortgages from the banks, to free up cash, so the bank can extend credit to the company YOU work for, so YOU won't lose your job, and YOU can still afford to pay your mortgage. It's a sound economic move.
I wish people would stop trying to justify or make excuses for their entitlement socialist attitudes. Work hard - get rewarded. Don't work hard - don't get rewarded.
Mo
said
the banks and government take it all..it is sad you can not claim a loss in RRSP..what a scam...trusts lost that tooo....thanks Mr Flaherty you really screws the common folk.
rachelcga
said
Robert A
said
Peed off Robert in NB
Socialist Harper loves throwing taxpayer money
said
You love the "free market" so much, die for it.
Practise what you preach, you phony "conservatives."
IT'S A BAILOUT, YOU LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
said
stop the lies
said
The government paid 50 billion in cash for 50 billion in assets. The assets are NOT high risk.
Not high risk because
1. our mortgages are insured.
2. Canadians have much more equity in their home then most
3. Our housing market is not crashing there fore the value of the assets are relatively stable.
Anyone who says they are high risk is either lying or is stupid. I will allow them to pick which one they prefer.
This is a smart move by the government with minimal risk.
GP
said
That said, it is necessary because of the banks own doing AND it allows the banks to then turn around and gouge profits on the backs of the taxpayers that are actually permitting them to have the ability to make these loans/profits.
This is just crap. How by any stretch of the imagination is this fair? The taxpayer (government) needs to attach conditions to this subsidy that the banks must accept as a punishment for getting themselves into this mess to start with. I don’t see anyone arguing that the banks did not do this to themselves.
Its call the "principle of fairness" and the government needs to step up and apply it, while the banks need to suck it up and stop trying to dodge their responsibility for causing this. The Banks next quarterly reports will tell the story of who is really suffering here…the taxpayer or the Banks. Who here thinks it will be the Banks?
Tell the banks to eat their losses.
said
If the banks need money, they should raise the interest rate they pay on deposits.
I don't work for my money and save it so that you deadbeats can get a free ride from your pal Harper.
Kyle Brookings (Carbonear NL)
said
SK Taxpayer
said
Leo
said
NOT...
So if the Banks were too greedy to lend money to people to buy a house without the proper income let them deal with the consequences!!!
David Dunlop
said
Paul In Winnipeg
said
Yeesh - yes, many of you should be proud of your ability to manage your personal finances, but honestly - do you think managing the global economy is as simple as balancing your chequebook?
Please - spend a few moments to educate yourself before assuming that everything is a conspiracy to screw "Joe six pack" by bailing out the "fat cat" banks.
Aaron
said
What's all in it for the bankers?
said
Phyllis in Bancroft
said
Mady
said
dave708955
said
Kristine
said
Its a win - win - win
SB
said
Echo
said
Even the US government did better than ours: they're actually taking equity in the buggers they're bailing out, while we're just buying a very expensive bag for the privilege of holding it.
jeff
said