CTV News | Dion introduces 'green shift' carbon tax plan

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Dion introduces 'green shift' carbon tax plan

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CTV News: Roger Smith on Dion's proposal
Canada AM: Don Drummond, chief economist, TD Bank Financial Group
Mike Duffy Live: Liberal Leader Stephane Dion explains the rationale behind the shift
CTV Newsnet: Dion unveils his 'green shift' plan
CTV Newsnet: Liberal Leader Stephane Dion unveils his 'green shift' plan, part two
CTV Newsnet: Liberal Leader Stephane Dion unveils his 'green shift' plan, part three
CTV Newsnet: Liberal Leader Stephane Dion unveils his 'green shift' plan, part four
CTV Newsnet: Liberal Leader Stephane Dion takes questions from the media
CTV Newsnet: Prime Minister Stephen Harper takes questions from the media
CTV Newsnet: John McCallum, Liberal finance critic
CTV Newsnet: Conservative MP Jason Kenney reacts to the Liberal green plan
Liberal Party of Canada: 'The Green Shift'

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CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Thu. Jun. 19 2008 9:42 PM ET

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion revealed his party's carbon tax plan Thursday morning, telling reporters that Canada needs to make a "green shift" to help save the environment.

At the heart of the energy plan is an energy tax on carbon fuels, which will be based on consumption.

New taxes are expected to generate about $15.4 billion annually in revenue in four years. But the Liberals say their plan will be revenue neutral because it will cut income taxes and increase family support payments.

Dion said his plan is "as powerful as it is simple."

"The Liberal Green Shift will cut taxes on those things we all want more of -- such as income, investment and innovation -- and shift those taxes to what we all want less of: pollution, greenhouse gas emissions and waste."

The proposed tax -- unveiled at a boisterous Liberal rally in Ottawa -- will hit electricity and home heating fuel but exempt gasoline at the pumps, which Dion said was already taxed.

The Liberals say their "Green Shift" plan will:

  • put the price of greenhouse gas emissions at $10 per tonne, rising to $40 per tonne in the fourth year
  • cut the lowest income tax bracket ($37,885 or less) by 1.5 per cent to 13.5 per cent
  • give a one per cent tax cut to the second and third lowest income brackets
  • cut taxes by $15.5 billion, including $11 billion in personal income tax cuts
  • create a new universal child tax benefit worth $350 per child annually in addition to existing child benefits
  • add a $600 increase to the Guaranteed Income Supplement for seniors, and increase benefits for low-income Canadian families

According to background documents, consumers will feel some impact, but the Liberals say extra fuel costs will be balanced off by income tax breaks and benefit increases. The average heating costs for homes that use oil are expected to rise by $203 per year. Homes using natural gas could see an average annual increase of $266.

The Liberals say a family of four with an annual income of $60,000 will save more than $1,300 from their tax cuts. The savings will be largely offset by higher energy costs, and the Liberals say the bulk of their plan will be paid for by large industrial emitters.

In a question and answer with reporters following the rally, Dion said he has not abandoned his support for a "cap and trade" system for carbon emissions in favor of a carbon tax. But he said such a system -- which would force companies to buy credits if they go above emissions quotas -- is likely years away.

"I changed my mind. My thinking evolved ... the best place to start right now is the "Green Shift," he said.

Tories: plan is a 'tax trick'

But Prime Minister Stephen Harper accused Dion of making a tax grab and of flip flopping on a commitment against a carbon tax.

"Mr. Dion has already broken his promise," Harper told reporters following a press conference in Huntsville, Ont.

Dion said "he would not have a carbon tax ... when he gets into office he'll put a carbon tax on gasoline and everything else. And it will not be revenue neutral," Harper said.

Dion said the tax would be revenue neutral, with the auditor general reporting annually to be certain.

The plan "will put every single penny back into the hands of Canadians," he said.

The Conservatives held a press conference Thursday afternoon to outline their criticisms in detail. Alberta MP Jason Kenney claimed new taxes on jet fuel, diesel, and home heating will hurt average Canadians.

He said manufacturers, oil refineries, and every company that faces carbon taxes will pass on their costs to consumers.

"You'll pay more for everything," Kenney said, calling the "Green Shift" a phony phrase.

Analysts say the Liberal plan is considered an enormous political risk and a tough sell, and is expected to generate debate across the country over the summer.

The issue may become the focal point of the next federal election. It quickly created a heated debate in the House of Commons, where the Liberals and Tories continued to exchange barbs over the issue during question period. The NDP also jumped into the fray.

"We've got no plan from the government, with emissions going up. (And)we've got the wrong plan from the Liberals," said NDP Leader Jack Layton.

The NDP dismissed the Tories' intensity-based approach, which the party says won't reduce carbon emissions. Layton has also rejected the concept of a carbon tax.

Instead, the NDP has called for a "cap and trade" system that puts a strict limit on greenhouse gas emissions by "big polluters." The companies would pay if they exceed their limits. Companies that don't use their capacity could trade or sell unused credits.

Some analysts say the Liberal plan introduced Thursday may be revenue neutral on a large scale, but not everyone will see new taxes offset by tax cuts.

"It's never going to be revenue-neutral for any individual or any corporation,'' Don Drummond, the chief economist for TD Bank, told The Canadian Press.

"Everybody's going to be able to do their own calculations to some degree, and there will be winners and there will be losers. So in aggregate you may say, 'OK, the $15 billion got recycled, but it didn't in my household budget.'''

Comments are now closed for this story

Rocket
said

Oh Please! Every government that comes in promises tax cuts....promises to put more money back in your pocket when they are equally competent at finding new and secret ways to get that money back. Why don't they just come out and say "We're not going to cut taxes or reduce anything. In fact, we'll just pay lip service to all these feel-good concepts and not do anythinge except collect and spend your money".

At least then they could be elected based on honesty!


Greg from Kitchener
said

Here goes the liberal media again! promoting liberal ideas! it's all just a numbers game, and we all know the truth, liberals say one thing and it ends up another. This is a Tax and only a Tax.
income tax cut wll not help seniors or low wage income earners. I am not blinded by this bull!


Reid
said

Woo hoo!The liberals are going to cut my taxes a whole 1% while upping the tax on everything else.They have my vote for sure....not


David
said

Let me get this straight. They are going to reduce my taxes by one percent, while EVERYTHING else I consume goes up by several percent? And they arent't sure if business will pass the taxes along?
Come up with a plan which lowers my taxes but does not raise the cost on ANYTHING else.
I don't trust the Liberals to reduce taxes anyway. They still have national daycare, guaranteed minimum income and other giveaways sitting in the closet waiting to be resurrected. I sure hope they aren't counting on votes from the Western provinces.


Mark M
said

Is he kidding us??? Revenue Neutral??? Not for me, and not for probably every other middle class person out there. I don't live in Toronto and no buses come anywhere near my home and I'm in the city limits! Even if I could take the bus to work it would be 1.5 hour drive with 3 transfers vs a single 20 minute car drive! I have an R2000 home with high efficiency furnaces and appliances, yet I will be paying more for heating??? All my bulbs are compacts fluorescents, yet my hydro will go up?? My wife and I both drive non-gas guzzling vehicles but Dion says gas won't be part of the plan??? Every single thing in Canada uses energy for use, the country is just too big and spread out. Every piece of food, lumber, clothing is going to go up. There is NO WAY this will wind up "revenue neutral". All this new government administered boon doggle for what? Canada that puts out less than 2% of the world green house gas emmisions? All this will do is bolster up the surplus so Dion can start promising to pay for daycare, more gun control etc. Hope people see through this. Don't matter anyways I guess. Once this is picked apart and analysed Dion will have handed Harper a majority!


Ann
said

The inflation numbers are very selective and do not reflect the true costs associated with the increases to fuel and energy. I doubt if the true costs of a carbon tax would therefore be reflected either. In all honesty, I do not see how this is going to help anything other than fill the coffers of the government. Other taxes were supposed to be revenue neutral, they're not. Big oil will merely pass it on. We'll pay more for food, water, and when winter comes many will sit in dark cold homes. Reducing personal taxes is a joke if one has a low income to start with and ends up paying more in tax than one gets back. It still has to be paid up front. They should try fining big industrial polluters until they clean up their acts which would be a better way to go. Stop punishing the individual Canadians who are just trying to make ends meet. The overpaid politicians in their chaufer driven vehicles and subsidised parliamentary restaurant can afford it, the rest of us can't.


Ian
said

So the oil companies will just pass on these costs to consumer will they. How about ypou put measures in place so if they try to do that you have legislation in place that stops that. In other words then they either have to pay or clean up the damage without US as consumers paying.You make sure big oil understands beforehand that the costs cannot be forwarded to the consumer.Stopping their production in Canada is one sure way they will co-operate. Overall, Mr. Dion's plan will save us money becuase the conservatives have NO PLAN AT ALL and that will cost us even double or triple down the road.Don't ever think these utility company won't raise their prices anyhow, that is a given due to the worldwide shortages of all types of energy. And as for India and China, I say we put very strict and heavy controls on ALL products from those countries till they have come on line with the rest of the world. We shouldn't or the USA shouldn't sell them any further shipments of coal just so they can ramp up the economy of their country and completley pollute the rest of the world with no regard for anybody.


larry
said

In my experience anything around taxes or spending, generated by the 'luminaries' at the head of the Liberal brain trust spells more, more, and more.

No way for more tax and I don't trust these guys at all to keep their word.

Of course their friends in the media will be overall supportive come election time.


Kevin P
said

So the biggest tax break is 37885.00 x 1.5% = $568.75? If you are unfortunate enough to make over that, say 40,000.00/yr, then that drops to a $400.00 tax cut? Big deal! That won't offset the raise in gasoline prices of the last few months never mind Dions proposed taxes new on home heating fuel/gas.

1 other question I have about this plan. How many people is it going to take to run this behemoth?! 15 billion dollars in tax collecting, and then dolling out a pittance back to Canadians. I have little faith after programs like the gun registry, which was supposed to cost a mere 2 million dollars to tax payers, and is currently up to around the 1.4 billion! And it failed! It either needs to be scrapped or re done. Much of the data is false, or has been left unverified.

If he truly wanted to fix global warming, bring in mandatory reductions on appliance energy consumption, increase home building standards to include geo-thermal, wind and solar at a home level. Do as Australia, and subsidize 50% of home wind solar upgrades up to 8000.00 per household. Don't play these ridiculous shell games with our tax payers money and pretend it isn't going to cost consumers a fortune. Most of us aren't that stupid.

and lastly, For someone who preaches the end is coming, Al Gores home energy consumption increased by over 10% last year. His bills for power now average over 16000.00/month!! that is thousand... He also made over $100 million last year preaching his "the end is nigh" message.
The preachers are getting filthy rich, our taxes are going up. Sumthin' smells here...


Same Shift, different smell
said

People will wear long sleeved shirts and pants most of this coming solar minimum influenced summer (The environuts at the UN, instead of saying they made a mistake like they did in the 70's with their predicted ice age have instead arrogantly put Global warming on hold for the next 10~15 years).
Dion is going to be kicked out of every BBQ backyard.

Combined with soaring gas prices creating unemployment and a cooling period with longer winters coming as the natural cycle continues, his tax grab is utterly "insane" like the PM said.


J.C.
said

Obviously Mr. Dion has no idea of how hard it is for those with a low income to heat their homes now without this added tax for carbon. Only those with higher incomes are likely to support his plan. One of those being David Suzuki. The income tax cuts would not cover the rise in tax on the heating fuel. As it sits now the lower income need cuts without the extra tax being instilled. The rising cost of food and necessities are already above the amount that most seniors and those on disability pensions can possibly afford. If the politicians were to live with the lower income they would not put this plan forward. As always the higher tax burdens lay with those who have the least income to afford such policies. I wonder if he could survive on a disability pension of 10- to $15,000 per year. Wake up Mr. Dion the average Joe does not have either your income nor the tax breaks that you have!!! And David Susuki might try speaking to those with lower incomes when he says Canadians would support more taxes for a greener environment. He obviously has been speaking to those that have a much higher income and can afford such hikes! Find a better way!!!


Will From Ottawa
said

Judging from the history of taxation in this country, I highly doubt that this plan would actually become "revenue neutral", despite the Liberals' claims. The Income Tax Act, 1917, was supposed to be "temporary", and originally gasoline taxes were supposed to be earmarked exclusively toward roads and infrastructure -- neither of which have happened.

Even if the Liberals' plan actually includes corresponding cuts to income taxes, that does not take into account the inflationary pressures on the economy that this "carbon tax" will inevitably bring. Since most things in North America are transported by truck or rail, and since they bothh use diesel, it follows that the increased cost of transportation will also in turn increase the price of the items being transported. The price of heating homes in this country would also increase as a result of this proposal. Thus, indirectly, this tax would increase the price of most things and therefore increase the cost of living overall.


MHR
said

I am willing give him to prove that he is no promise-breaker!

Harper already proven that wrong because he is one who broken many promise and even lied to people.

I trust Dion more than Harper so I believe that his green plan is effective and I support it.

For you all, you elected a good government out of the office aka. Paul Martin's government and his government tabled an plan that many expert actually believe that it could work without harm ecomony and even able to meet KYOTO's target. I can't believe that how easily we all are forgetting that? Obviously Harper did good job on brainwashing you folks. I suggest you all to support this plan and show Harper that you guys are not his puppet.

Proud Canadian - Please make Canada a proud nation again.


Josh in Ontario
said

I keep asking this but no one seems to give me a straight answer. What happens if revenue from the carbon tax decreases? Will my income taxes then go up? Why don't they mention that? Inflation anyone? What if you have a big family and need a big house to heat in the cold Canadian winter. Sorry dion, bad idea.


Matty
said

What Dion didn't mention was how much of this tax was going to support liberal backers and political hacks. This is just what I need. More Taxes applied the liberal way.


Matt
said

Revenue neutral means the government won't make more from it.

It isn't going to be cost neutral to you.

Dion has even suggested they won't need to hire people to implement this tax. But a multibillion dollar carbon emission system without ANY new government jobs to administer it?
I think it's insulting to suggest that the Canadian public will believe a plan of this magnitude could be implmented for no cost. Of course maybe Dion knows Canadians really are that gullible.


Neil
said

Here we go again, collect taxes - create a
government department to give it back - and call it revenue neutral.
A bankrupt House of Commons - living in their own wonderland.


Astounded by lack of foresight
said

So the carbon tax is going to do what? I thought the intent of carbon taxes was to generate a revenue stream that would b directed into research and other initiatives to develop sustainable environmentally friendly technologies. This is taking an existing revenue stream, giving it an enviro-fiendly name so that all of the activists and wannabes can give the world a huggy-feely impression that Canada is actually doing something. Marketing at it's finest.

Even if it turns out to be *cough* "revenue neutral", the NET result will be a HUGE spike in the inflation rate as (I believe) electricity and other items that will fall under the carbon tax are used to determine the inflation rate. What will THAT do to the economy of Canada? Who will pay the increased costs for Hospitals, Government Offices/Departments etc? Also, I believe that these very same items are either directly or indirectly used to calculate the cost of living index from which things like poverty rate, welfare payments, CPP payments, old age pension payments are dervied or indexed. This will of course result in increases to all of these payments as we are a social society. Finally, what is the source of these payments? That's right! Income and Corporate taxes! So much for those much vaunted tax-cuts.

Another fine example of short-sighted thinking by your Liberal Party of Canada.


GetInformed BeforeAssuming
said

Why don't any of you actually read the tax plan before assuming you know what it's all about, and talking about it being a tax grab, as the conservitive ads and media have told you sheep to think. I hope none of you talk about wanting to make a real change in making our best efforts to reduce our greenhouse gas emisions.
If we don't tax higher to the worst abusers/users then they will never change.I am in no way a liberal, but why don't you get informed before assuming you know what this tax is aobut.


Lee
said

So the Liberals are "serious" about the environment and they are going to tax essential services, i.e. electricity and heating, adding more stress to the wallets of the middle class (not to mention those on fixed incomes etc.), yet we're to believe we'll get that back through other tax cuts. Wait a minute wouldn't that just cancel the new taxes out, therefore not generating anything for the environment. Wow, good job Liberals new low, we're not stupid, bottom line, more money out of my pocket and no envirmental impact. This is the sound of one hand clapping.


soviet canuckistan
said

Strangley, critics here fail to realize this government has become the highest spending regime ever! All the while undermining the surplus that Canadians believed was going to help pay down the debt accrued principally under the Mulroney doldrums of the 80's. Why criticize a group not even in government? Start with the one that is there....Harper has become worse than his competition, he came into power on small-government rhetoric and has completely abandoned it in favour of stunts and pandering to old Mulroney/Harris franchises. It won't work. I trust Canadians to figure it out, starting with goofballs like Baird and Flaherty as specific targets in the next election.


Freezing in MB
said

It is getting impossible to drive a vehicle and these idiots want to tax us out of our homes and into the poor house. Pollution and CO2 are the least of my concerns,when I hear this Dion drool - the guy should be in a straight-jacket and locked away. Unbelievable!!


Davey boy
said

Oh, for the love of Pete. Do Not let the Liberals or NDP get in power. I couldn't even imagine what this country would turn into if they bring in the Carbon tax. The lies have already started even before this tax is implemented by the liberal regime. The Libs say the tax will bring in $15 billion we would get back $ 11 billion Where's the revenue neutral again? this would be a disaster if it is ever brought in. Liars, thieves, criminals I only say that because what we've seen from the Liberals in the past.


Phil
said

What people are not considering here is that this is not a new idea. It has been implemented elsewhere with success. The only reason the conservatives don't want this is because the big carbon exporters will pay and they live in Alberta. They are the source of the revenue used to offset the tax reductions to average Canadians. Government doesn't need to wait for the savings to be passed on. I need more information but this is the way other jurisdictions are going. The alternative is the Harper Plan and that sucks.


Ray
said

We need the full details before criticizing the plan. It may or may no work effectively but the real future costs of doing nothing are huge. The conservatives rather than tearing apart the Liberal proposal need to propose a serious significant solution of their own that starts now and not in ten years or more.


GaryinWpg
said

A bare to the bones fear mongering tax grab. Nothing more nothing less.

After 9-11 what was the first thing the Libs do? A security tax! Feel safer now?

Is that all they know how to do?

Typical Liberal mentality, give us your money so we can look after you.

Yeah right.

Mr. Dion, word of advice...quit while you're ahead.







Carl
said

Is this man for real? I will get a $10.00 per $1,000 reduction on my income tax but pay considerable extra for practically everthing else I purchase, not excluding heating my home, etc., etc., etc. I wonder if the Liberal party will be willing to purchase my house as on my limited budget I can barely make ends meet. What he is suggesting is gross abuse and nothing else and will the environment really gain much?


Steve
said

Brilliant, put a carbon tax on nuclear generated electricity. That is proof positive that this is entirely about raising taxes using the environment as an excuse.


Mike S
said

Here goes the Liberal bashing...Oh yeah this isn't a great thing to cut down my income taxes while taxing big polluters. Either way they will be raising their prices more and more. Atleast it'll be for a good reason this time around. I guess Kevin P. you'd rather save that whole 2 cents on your daily pack of gum with that 2% cut in the GST or maybe the hundreds of dollars on a new SUV. Wait a minute they pollute big don't they... What a joke.


Eric in China
said

This is nothing more than a tax grab by the East on the West. This is another NEP that will decimate the West again. What's funny is that most emissions come from homes and cars in highly populated Eastern Canada. Why wouldn't the Liberals start there...oh wait thats where their votes are.

What's funny is that I'm actually ok with a carbon tax as long as its applied to EVERY country's imports, whether they are developed or not. At least we would all be paying and would make a difference rather than shifting the production to China or Mexico.

It should seriously be illegal to vote to take money from one area and give it to another.

Canada...its starting to remind me of Zimbabwe...


Brian
said

So, the putative premise of this carbon tax is to protect the environment." Well, sorry Dr. Dion, but this little Canadian just doesn't get it. You're going to exempt a carbon tax on gasoline but impose a tax on real essentials; electricity and fuel to heat our homes, additional costs that, as the journalist Robert Fife pointed out, will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices. And then you are going to minimally (how else do you characterize a reduction in income tax from 15% to 14%) reduce income taxes. I think this idiot has just handed the Conservatives a majority government.


Terri
said

Great plan. I love what I'm seeing so far. As a city dweller, I've always resented subsidizing the lifestyles of the SUV driving suburbia dwellers. We subsidize construction of their roads, removal of trees for their homes, and even piping and sewage costs so they can have their sprawling high energy consuming space.

If they want it, pay for it and stop dipping into my pocket to subsidize the BS pollution heavy lifestyle that you all feel you're entitled to. Yes I live in the city, I sold my car, I take public transit, and my carbon foot print is small. I'm damn proud of it and I will support any plan that will financially reward me for it.


Andrew
said

I like how the top story on CTVnews is about the High Gas prices, showing an image of 1.49/l gas.

Then they cover this story in such a positive light, you'd think people wanted higher gas prices.


Nicole
said

Where exactly is the money supposed to come from to compensate farmers or rural people (btw no numbers are given as to the extent of help) or women's shelters if this is revenue neutral? Who will pay for the bureaucracy to administer this? Once again pandering to the urban big city dweller and the middle income suburban family gets fleeced again. Even if we reduce our emissions to 0 China will increase theirs by how much? Maybe when Mr. Dion gets out of his government funded house and vehicle and salary and starts living like the average Canadian he will see how ridiculous this fantasy save the planet tax is. Someone please tell the emperor he's not wearing any clothes.


eskiefan
said

Even if this was the most wonderful plan in the world (which it is not), the Liberals' track record on keeping election promises is abysmal. Think of when they campaigned promising to abolish the GST... Moreover, the very thought of raising the cost of home heating fuel in a northern country is chilling in more ways than one. The bottom line is I do not believe anything they say. They have zero credibiity with me.


Brian G.
said

Doesn't this sound like the discussion about the GST. When implemented this tax would replace an existing manufacturing tax. Thus the cost of goods would go down, and this would be a revenue neutral. Oops that didn't happen prices didn't fall, and Canadians have been paying ever since. Do you think this would happen again? And again, much like when PC's were going to increase the fuel tax back in the 80's, and P. E. Trudeau stood as the opposition and said no to a 3 cent rise, only to defeat the government and raise the tax to 11 cents. And the Liberals promised to rid us of the hated GST - when were they going to do that. Let's face it - Liberals like taxes, they like them alot. Good luck Mr Dion - you are but one of many Liberal leaders promising to give tax money back. Only S. Harper has done that.


IT Manager in Calgary
said

Dion's plan makes total sense. It hits polluters in the wallet, which is the only thing that will get them to change their polluting ways, while at the same time proves that it is the Liberal party that truly wants to reduce the tax burden on ALL Canadians, not just the rich ones. I'd like to remind all of the right wing hacks on this board that Stephen Harper RAISED taxes on the poor in TWO budgets. I can understand why Cons hate Dion's plan though - because it makes total sense, and that is something that Conservatives really want nothing to do with. After all, the only reason any of you vote for the Con party is because you don't vote past the end of your nose - it's all about what's in it for YOU, isn't it? At least Dion has the interests of all Canadians and the planet in mind.

Dave
said

How does someone who is living on the edge come up with more money for heat and electricity during the year.
Are the gas companies and hydro companies going to wait for payment until after the tax refunds have been sent?



rob
said

Hey Mike S,

Add up your heating bill, water bill, hydro bill, cable bill, etc. and multiply by the 2% GST reduction and then by 12 = yearly savings from GST cut. Please stop using the cup of coffee or pack of gum calculation.


ET
said

Why don't you guys follow the lemming in front of you to the pumps? The only way things are actually going to change, and emissions drop, is if you make it expensive enough to make people think twice before turning on their car, or REALLY cranking that thermostat or A/C. Maybe people will actually start thinking that it's not a good idea to run the A/C and leave the door open, while they're standing on the back deck, cookin a bbq.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but I'm more PO'd about Exxon-Mobile raking in $1,364 a SECOND in the last two quarters...that's over $10B a quarter. Maybe with gas and electric being more expensive, people will actually start changing their behaviours...I think Exxon-Mobile has enough money.


mike
said

Sounds like a decent policy proposal. Similar strategies have proven successful at controlling CO2 emissions in other countries. Of course in Canada emissions have increased by 32% since 1990, while government has put forth nothing but rhetoric and do-nothing schemes.

What better time to start doing something than now? If you put any stock in the foretasted price of oil, or the impending consequences of climate change, it certainly won't get easier, or cheaper to wait.


MB
said

OK, so people complained that he did nothing as environment minister, and now people are complaining that he is doing something as party leader.

Can someone then explain to me what the answer is? How are we going to reduce our dependency on oil? How are we going to reduce prices on fuel, food, etc?

If we do nothing, prices keep going up and we suffer. If we do something, prices go up and we suffer.

I am glad that we're finally talking about solutions.

Considering that we won't have a majority government for the foreseeable future, I'm sure that the plan in it's current form won't pass as advertised, even if the Liberals get a minority government.

Exciting times!


Why are these people not smiling?
said

Look at their Green shift ad... nobody smiling!!

Neither is anyone else for that matter. Pathetic.


Gord
said

With all due respect this is the stupidist thing I have ever heard. Drive up the price of heating oil then tell that same consumer they will get a 1% tax reduction. The people that can least afford this are the ones that are going to get killed by it. Only someone as shortsighted as Dion could possibly say he is not sure is business will pass on the cost increase....DUH. Really how stupid could this guy be. This is another Liberal boon doggle just waiting to happen, remember the last goof who promised to eliminate the GST, yeah sure!!, how about the gun registry, it will only cost a few mill, yeah sure!!. I feel sorry for all those martimers because this is going to hit them huge. A 1% reduction in tax on low income earners works out to nothing. I won't hurt business at all because every single one will pass the cost on to the consumer. This is a formula that will get the Libs wiped right off the map and right so.


Raj
said

Even worse then I originally thought,
What a beautiful way to allow corporations to mask cost increases and profit gouging under the mask of a "Carbon Tax"

Is anyone really foolish enough to believe that Corporations are going to pay dollar one of this tax?

Average Canadian Tax Payers are going to be saddled with paying the carbon tax for everyone as the tax will be pasted on through price increases.


Shan
said

The liberals are out of touch with Canadians. Their plan does not make any sense - the cost of heating, gas, and any energy has spiked. Adding additional taxes to this will hit the poor the hardest as well as disadvantage the rural and small town economies. The liberals need a new leader if they ever hope to have a chance at running against the conservatives


Dale Wilson
said

Mr. Dion and his minions were unelectable West of the Manitoba / Ontario border before this FARCE and DECEPTIVE MONEYGRAB...no wonder the Alberta Liberals want to change their name...

An earlier writer did the math quite well, I'll save a few hundred on my income tax (or so they say) but I'll be paying 5 or 6 times that amount extra every year to heat my home, keep the lights on at night and get to work...what more do you want me to do? I drive a Civic, every bulb in my house is a CF, we keep the house at 19 in the winter and don't have an air conditioner, all our appliances are Energy Star...we're doing our part..every single thing we can do and yet we're going to have our lives affected by Dion's non-sensical and illogical scheme.

Phil
said

To Eric in China; Albeta represents 10% of the population and produces 40% of the total Canadian CO2 emmissions


Jim
said

As a Maritimer, we have 2 options for heating, oil or electricity. This will add more pain to a region that historically is taxed more with fewer wages then the rest of Canada. There was no mention of carbon tax on natural gas, by the way is predominate in the big cities where all the votes are. I think the Liberals should rethink its decision on the new tax and replace its leader while they are at it.

Jim



skeptical
said

This is nothing more than a redistribution of wealth, cloaked with an environmental spin. Who will end up paying/losing the most? Me thinks upper income rural homeowners. Thanks Stephane, it's been nice knowin' ya.


Some Canadian
said

A consumption tax is much better for the public than an income tax. You spend less, you pay less tax. Anyone who has even the slightest idea of economics knows this. A consumption tax allows the consumer to decide how best to spend their money. Yes, fuel is demand inelastic - people will spend whatever the price is because they 'have to', but maybe a tax and further increase in the cost of fuel (which the cost increases are attributed more to speculators than anything else) will cause consumers to demand more fuel-efficient vehicles and the use of alternative fuels (read: electric car). And perhaps a decrease in the demand for fossil fuels will actually LOWER the price!
People, we got to start thinking long-term, big picture. The short-term high cost of fuel may actually lead to better, more efficient, energy sources which will cut down on emissions!
I still want to see the Liberals plan in full to render judgement, but on the face, its a good idea. The cost of fuel will go up anyway due to speculators, so why not find a mechanism to fund alternative fuel sources and also help reduce emissions?


Walter Green
said

I'm so happy about this Liberal plan that I am almost in tears. Dion just handed Stephen Harper a majority government! Which is what I've always wanted to see. Good bye Liberal party of Canada, you'll be lucky to win 60 seats in the next election.


BC Pensioner
said

I'm a senior who is on a fixed government income (OAS, CPP) for which I pay 'NO INCOME TAX' as my income is too low, now the Liberals propose that I will be paying more to heat my home (I have only electricity for everything) and in return get pay less income tax - I DO NOT PAY INCOME TAX - HOW IS THIS REVENUE NEUTRAL. Quite obviously the Liberals do not live in the real world.


C'mon, really...
said

I can't really control how much heat my home uses (assuming you have prerequisite stuff like energy efficient furnace, insulation etc) without simply accepting being colder. I can, to an extent, at least choose when I drive. And the liberals want to tax the one thing I can't cut back on without being colder in my house, but not the thing I could adjust if I so choose. Good one guys! The only way to limit greenhouse gas emissions, is to actually limit greenhouse gas emissions, not tax the citizenry and hope somehow that applies pressure on the people who choose whether they limit emissions or not. I voted Liberal my whole life til the last election, can't see going back any time soon. The Conservatives aren’t perfect, but they are on average more likely to come up with something that actually works on the ground.


No More Liberal Trickery
said

Seems to me that industry will pass on the added cost of a carbon tax on to consumers. Therefore prices will go up, probably proportional to the Liberals proposed individual tax cuts. I guess this is revenue-neutral for consumers, too!

If you want to see real cuts in GHG emissions, give incentives, not punishment.


Adam
said

Where are the grants and subsidies for using green energy?

Even with the increasing costs of fossil fuels, and this tax, it would still be cheaper for me to heat and power my house on the grid, compared to the out of pocket cost of installing solar or wind or geo thermal. If this tax is revenue neutral, there would still be like a 30 year ROI on renewable energy if prices remain the same.

OK tax us on fossil fuels, but give us tax breaks to go green! That would break our dependance on fossil fuels, increase our standard of living (less operating costs), it's good for the environment and exponentially help that industry. Look at what California did.



Corey
said

This plan makes no sense. The liberals say that the carbon tax will raise around 14 billion to be used to find alternative solutions to fossil fuels. Yet they will lower income tax by 11-14 billion to offset that increase. Here is my question. If they slash income tax, what programs are they going to cut?? Are they going to cut healthcare? Education?
My guess is they will slash transfer payments to the provinces to keep up the federal social programs. The provinces will be left to fend for themselves to raise the capital to cover these costs and that will be in the form of tax increases. Then the feds can claim victory that there plan works, and its the provinces fault that we have to pay more taxes.

Dion really needs to explain this idea in full. The longer he waits, the harder it will be for him to sell it to Canada.


Matt
said

Phil,
Yes carbon taxes have been successfully implemented.

Lets take the example of Europes success.
1. Higher taxes
2. Higher unemployment, massive job losses, and the movement of entire factories and companies to other jurisdictions.
3. Massive protests due to rising energy prices.
4. Continued increases in CO2 emissions.

Bad for the people, bad for the economy and doesn't reduce emissions. I guess the success is the massive government bureaucracy it created.


Kevin D
said

to "Get Informed before Assuming" You are correct we need to read the plan first. However from what has been released it certainly does look like a consumer tax that will not be covered by the 1% reduction. I hope when the details all come out it does have more than just what I saw in this article today.


ARJAY
said

Most of the posts her are simply irrational rants against the Liberals. I don't support them myself, but it is simply illogical to dismiss a plan before it is implemented on the grounds that politicians don't keep their promises etc. You could be right- they certainly don't have a good record. But the fact is that on that basis, anything any government suggests would be rejected out of hand because "politicians are liars". In which case, there's no point in having a government at all, is there? Somehow anarchy doesn't appeal to me as an option...

Instead, ask whether you would support this plan if in fact the government made it revenue neutral. Suppose they have the numbers right, and return to the people as much money as they take in, including the costs of administration. Would you support it then, or would you find some other, equally spurious grounds to attack it? The strongest argument against something is not to dismiss it ahead of time, but to give it a fair chance and see what happens based on evidence. It's called the scientific method.
Give evidence a chance, and if it fails, then change it.

The climate crisis is real, in spite of what climate change deniers have deluded themselves into beieving (talk of "natural cycles" is right up there with creationism- these cycles take thousands of years, not decades, as climate change is taking). If we're not willing to even risk a revenue neutral attempt to solve the problem, then exactly what is your plan? Wait and see if the scientists are right? Are you really willing to risk the future of the planet based on your apparent disbelief of all politicians and scientists?

Now that's irrational, don't you think?


Mitch
said

it might be revenue neutral for the government but for people the tax cuts may not offset the extra money you spend on increased prices. Every family will spend differently on gas and electricity.

Also this will hit tourism with higher prices for people to come here and purchase goods. Good thinking dion.

And another point, this if implemented, will hurt western economies, which are the only ones that are doing well in this country right now


KJ in Toronto
said

I just don't understand the point of the carbon tax at all.

If it is expected that the tax is passed on to the customer by business and industry, what's the point? They're not being penalized at all.

And if it is revenue neutral like the Liberal's claim, what's the point of introducing it to begin with? I mean, once removing politics from the equation, what's the point?


bennji
said

Wake up people and open you eyes to what is going around you. We are seriously damaging the environment with our current way of life, and we HAVE to change our ways.

I do not know all the details of the proposed carbon tax plan, but I am happy to see that at least one of our national parties is taking issues of the environment seriously.

When all is said and done, I hope that this opens up a debate on how to deal with this very important public policy issue.

Enough with the partisan rhetoric and fear mongering from the current government. I am sick of their childless little ads, and funny little cartoons.




How stupid do they think we are?
said

So mt cost of living will increase on everything from my electric bill and heating bill to all of the products I purchase. But that's okay because I will save $500.00 a year? Someone should tell Dion that it is a little late to try and cash in on the green feelings of last year. Tell the CAW and Air Canada lay offs that there cost of living is about to go up and this new tax ensures that there jobs will stay outside of Canada.


Rob
said

Hmmmm...revenue neutral. Where have we heard that before?

Let me see:

Income tax wil be a temporary war measure.

The GST will be revenue neutral. (that worked well)

Unemployment insurance premiums are used for the unemployed.

The airport security tax is used for airport security.

McGuinty's health care tax is all used for health care.

Gas taxes are used to build roads.

The income surtax is a deficit reduction measure.

Does the phrase " roll into general revenue's" ring a bell?

The Conservatives have it wrong. This is not a Dion tax trick. This trick has been used over and over again for decades. The question is "how many times are voters going to be sucked in"?





National Energy Program - Version 2
said

This is no more and no less than a new National Energy Program (NEP) - and a declaration of war on Western Canada. The similarities are striking...the last time the Liberals did this to us energy prices were high and climbing. Western Canada was enjoying unprecedented prosperity. There was concern in the Ivory Towers of the east that economic and political power was shifting West. Here we are again...BUT...its too late to keep us down folks, we've come too far.


dave
said

The stupidity on this website emphasizes why we are doomed. People wired to consume can't learn how to conserve. the knuckle-dragging, mouthbreathing public won't make sacrifices. Dion is trying. He will fail. Getting elected means giving stupid people luxuries they don't deserve. People don't want global warming and starvation - but they don't want to stop blow-drying their hair, driving their pick-up truck to the corner store either. Yippy jkay-yay dumb-dumbs - too many people - too little resources - parties over, here comes your hangover. don't slam people who are trying to ease you out of you disneyland lifestyle.


Bevan
said

Wonderful. More taxes will fix everything. It is not possible to make this revenue neutral as there will be additional administrative costs. But the Liberals desperately want to be back in power as their right as the natural governing power. So they haved spun up this snake-oil approach. The fact is that the problem will fix itself. As they become more scarce, fossil fuels will simply get too costly to burn. The solutions to this is already coming from market forces. Witness the move to hybrid and electric vehicles. Fuel cells, at least for vehicles are still down the road a bit.


Mark Sheridan
said

Good plan. Maybe this will convince westerners that the cost of remaining in this dismal country is way beyond any benefit. Have now become an active western separatist.


David in New Brunswick
said

To Jim in Maritimes
I too am a Maritimer. You forgot the third option of heating: wood. (I heat exclusively with wood).
My rates are fixed, and if I need fuel, I go cut it down.
I do agree that deterrents work, but what of incentives? It's not just "stick", it's CARROT and stick.
I think that the conservative ads were right on about Dion's tax grab.


Frank Buchan
said

I suppose Dion is getting bad advice from the "wannabe" leaders who lost to him, and my guess is they will be smiling as he self-destructs with this ill-considered scheme to raise taxes. As for the environment, the apparent exclusion of this tax on gas at the pumps indicates this is a pretence anyhow -- and who wants to offend those who drive Hummers?

Ignoing all the lies and posturing, it does make the head spin to think that they are considering taxing necessities that in this country could freeze you to death if forgone. How exactly does a fixed income person offset the rise in heating oil that would come from this, if that is their only option, as it is in many parts of the country even today? Wages certainly won't be going up without further pressuring prices everywhere. For that matter, how does anyone offset the food prices rising as farmers, who need a lot of energy inputs to produce and ship goods we need, have to raise their prices? Granted, maybe we should eat less...perhaps they can rename this the "Dion Diet."

This is no reason to not vote Liberal though, because if elected, my guess is the Liberals would simply do what they did before: not implement a thing.


Wally
said

Every other party's environment "plan" promises higher prices on things too. At least this one has some sort of relief for ordinary citizens. The Tory plan makes prices go up, emissions go up, taxes go up. So mock Dion all you guys want - it's all his opponents have, mockery, because they've no plan of their own. Go Dion!


Ger
said

Anyone's plan, Liberal, Conservative, NDP, Green, or Block (if they had one) where manufacturers are directly or indirectly taxed will be passed on and result in increased consumer goods.

This plan is about a change in consumer spending mindset. Buying more efficient goods. Walking or bicycling rather than driving especially short distances. Turning down your heating by a degree or two or turning off the Air Conditioning when you aren’t home. Turning off the lights when you exit a room.

As consumer shy away from energy sucking products, manufacturers will need to produce more energy efficient goods in order to survive.

Those who insist on continue to use those energy sucking products will have to pay for it. Yes, I have an SUV and choose to use it. Yes, gas is very pricy.

For those of you who say “China and other developing countries are still spewing carbon into the air.” I say if China jumped off a cliff, would you follow?

At least with the Liberal plan, we get some direct benefit through tax relief rather than just pay the pass through which will happen in the other plans.



Cal in Ottawa
said

The main question here is can we trust them on this 'revenue neutral' claim. These are the same guys who brought us the 2 million dollar gun registry...that worked well!!! There would be a cost to administer these so-called rebates, and as Will in Ottawa notes, costs for everything that uses 'carbon' would increase. Wrong tax, wrong time, wrong place.


Mike from Comox
said

I guess we won't be producing much CO2 if we're all penniless.

The government takes (and wastes) enough of my paycheck already thanks, I'd like to keep the portion that they currently allow me to have.

Revenue neutral? Are Liberals getting too lazy to even try feeding us a credible lie?


Ryan in Kelowna
said

Phil, are you trying to say that Albertans are worse at saving energy? Your numbers represent industry which will not be affected by this tax since they will pass it on to all consumers, being the average Joe on the street around the country. Liberal plans are only good for costing us more money. IT Manager in Calgary, you apparently like things like the gun registry right? That would good for all of Canada. Hmm...Liberal. What about the 2% all of Canada is saving on GST now? Hmm...Con. The Libs have had years to eliminate the GST they promised to do and just haven't got around to it. How was the Lib plan to subsidize day care going to help everyone exactly? Oh wait, the Cons had a better idea. Smarten up. We are not all equal here even though that is a grand idea it's just not true. Stop the taxation!


Bryan
said

I'm sorry, but even with proposed income tax cuts, all this is doing is funneling more money out of our pockets. This carbon tax will NOT cut emissions. It will not cause people to drive less, or freeze in their homes in the winter. Instead, it will give us less money, which will cause us to spend less, which will stagnate the economy, and we end up in the same situation with less disposable income. Dion is out to lunch on this idea, and I hope it blows up in his face. We need ne technologies to make "green living" more affordable.


Dave
said

I am getting such a kick out of the right wing since this plan was announced.. using all of your totally witty puns like "shift happens". Wow. The wit is almost blinding. Watch, the left can do it too - we have a funny way to spin Harper's entire campaign and still be accurate - we call it "lies".

Oh, the hilarity!


Al
said

I hope they're going to tax food too, people are eating way too much!


Bryan
said

Does Dion really think that a 1% income tax deduction will entice voters enough to forget that EVERYTHING else is increasing in price? I consider myself to be pretty Green but I also have a family to take care of and with gas, food, travel, heating etc increasing at such a rapid pace I can’t afford to support anything that will further increase these costs. This plan will only get Harper re-elected and make people wary of Green policies.


Hawar Emin
said

It is funny how the same people who come here saying I trust Dion and not Harper will come later protesting against price increases from this carbon tax. You don't have to burn your toe to know that fire is hot!! With Dion's plan we will have to pay so much more for non luxuries like heating at home. Good luck!


Shan
said

The additional tax will decimate our economies by feeding inflation (as if it isn't already bad enough with the rising cost of oil), and by significantly increasing the cost on all businesses. His tax simply shifts the load from the consumer to the business, and that will have a substantial drain on our economy and our ability to have jobs.


maurice
said

This will work. When companies move their manufacturing plants to countries that have no carbon tax, Canada's emitions will drop drasticly. There will also be added benifits from unemployed Canadians no longer being able to aford to drive. We could be the greenest country on the planet


gary wilson
said

As laid out, this is a exceptionally clever and efficient policy. Where I'm cautious is if it will be implemented as stated. If not, the policy will simply be another cowardly failed government tax policy.


bunny
said

anyone who thinks that this plan is a good one should get their head out of the sand. one needs to read no further than the first paragraph which says that the government will help low income families who are finding it hard to cope with the rising cost of everything. this means that the tax neutrality the liberals are claiming is a farce. we will as a middle class pay alot more for a lifestyle that is already come under fire through rising gas prices and home heating costs. the claim of imposing tariffs on goods from countries bereft of such an idiotic policy reeks of protectionism and will only serve to curtail future investment from current companies and drive away new ones. ones that rely on manufacturing here to export to other countries will no longer be competitive. and ask the folks at the GM Oshawa Truck Plant why they lost their jobs. probably due to the high gas prices. the market is better at dictating habits than a liberal babysitting policy service. the looney left wont be content until were all hitching the horse to the hedgepost.


David
said

I wonder if Stephan has read a paper or listened to the news lately. The oil companies already have a carbon tax. It's called $140/barrel oil. People are cutting back already. We don't need more taxes to help us, Exon is doing that quite nicely already.

We need more public transit, more fuel efficient cars and trucks. The Government should be talking higher mileage requirements, not higher taxes.


DG
said

This is a good policy. Those who say it isn't just won't accept any policy from the Liberal, period.


Allan from Cowtown
said

The rest of the Liberal leadership hopefuls were surely pushing Dion to release this plan quickly. Next item on the agenda is to force an election as soon as possible in the fall. I fail to understand why this needed to happen. The only thing that makes sense is the Liberals realize self-destructing during an election will result in a leadership change. Considering most of the supposed tax cuts work out to around a tank of gas or two, big deal. Consumers are already taking the situation in hand by buying smaller cars, hybrids, etc. But I guess the raping of Alberta (and Saskatchewan next) and giving to Ontario and Quebec is truly what the Liberals need to make a breakthrough. Food for thought, how many days do I run my A/C in Calgary? None. Don't even have one. Already living green. And winter heating costs, well, comes with living in the great white north.


john g
said

What details???

How much will my electricity bill go up?

How much will my gas bill go up?

How much will the cost of home heating oil go up?

This is not details. This is a whitewash.


Harrison
said

More spin from the Liberals and the media! The term "tax" will be supplanted by "green shift" in most headlines and talking points because of the pejorative connqtations Canadians have to the term "tax". You can throw it on the scarp heap of other semantical terms such as "premium" and "revenue tools". It's a tax by any other name and we will pay through the nose if its ever implemented.


Don
said

No matter what they say this is another tax and will net the government more. Do what Europe is doing with the tax credits. Businesses buy excess off each other. We just reduced all the taxes the Liberals previously pushed on us. They are not even re-elected and they are already thinking up new taxes.


DJM
said

Dion's plan is typical Liberal Big Government - the solution to every problem is: More Taxes! Let's fiddle around with an already incomprehensible taxation system, and tell the fools our plan is "revenue-neutral"! They just don't get it - gas at $1.50 a litre will do more to reduce pollution than all the government programs ever devised.


Chuck you Farley.
said

Its funny the only people who seem to agree with this assinine proposal are people who come from urban centers.

and its ironic that they say everyone else is being selfish. when people in different situations and I think you would find the people that rely on a car the most are ones in a low income bracket live in rural areas and do not have access to public transit. I live in a city now, I bike 26 km a day but i need my SUV for the winter as buses don't run on my work schedule
I can't wait to move back to the country where i can grow my vegetables rather that see people try to elect them to office



Kevin D.
said

Where do some you get your stats from? Carbon tax has been successfully implemented in other countries ...such as please Phil enlighten us???
Norway introduced a carbon tax /levy specifically aimed at it's petroleum industry to encourage their oil companies to sequester CO2 emission into underground chambers back in the late 90's. The price of fuel in Norway doubled within the year. Their oil production has gone up each year and their CO2 emissions has gone up faster then their population, their CO2 emmissions has increased by 8%. So it looks like that carbon tax has worked!!!! ( all information gleaned from CBC website and Norway's government website). Next lets look at New Zealand. They implemented a $15.00 per tonne of CO2 emmission tax in the start of 2005. They cancelled it at the end of the year because it wasn't reducing emmissions and instead went to credit trading system(www.theage.com.au). Both New Zealand and Norway plan to meet their Kyoto agreements by purchasing credits from former eastern bloc countries whose industry collapsed since 1990. Even though both New Zealand and Norway have actually increased their emmissions they will both be considered environmentally friendly because they will dump over $2 billion dollars into a couple of Eastern bloc countries who will most likely use the money to develop coal fired power plants. So please some one show us one country that has proven the carbon tax to be successful. Also for you information, the EU has not reduced emissions in any of the last 4 years. It is averaging a 1.2 percent increase per annum. So much for their 8% reduction. To offset it they will most likely purchase credits from former eastern bloc countries or pay for reforesting parts of China that are being stip mined for coal. Sorry I know it's just another cheap (actually expensive) shop at the Kyoto accord showing that is a transfer of wealth rather than a global reduction of emissions like it was supposed to be.

What type of plan would work? How about placing tariffs on imports that cause CO2 during manufacturing. This would increase the price of Chinese made goods due to the power for chinese manufacturing coming from each new coal power plant that they are commissioning at a rate of 1 per week. This money could go towards improving Canadian manufacturing technology (new scrubbers etc.) How about improving transit and rail systems in Canada. If you live downtown Toronto or Montreal you have a great transit system but I know the transit systems in Calgary, Halifax, Vancouver and Winnipeg do not come anywhere close to those two systems. As long as green choices are reasonable and not inconvenient they can be increased. But demanding all suburban dwellers to not drive just because you live in a nice downtown apartment is not a practical idea. I don't think having 2 million people living downtown Toronto would solve this issue. In Calgary, a 1000 sq. ft condo right downtown is $500,000 plus. In suburbia it's $300,000 for a starter home that is about the same size. People can barely afford the $300,000 tag let alone the $500,000 tag.


AJ in Edmonton
said

What tax cuts is he talking about? Mr Dion still wants to raise the GST tax back to seven percent again. What are we going to do if the liberals come back into power? For the average middle income Canadian citizen it will probably force us to turn down our thermostats to freezing and use candles in the house in order not to use heating fuel and electricy. His plan is nothing more than tax the life out of middle and lower income people and make the CARBON TRADING industries rich. This is nothing more than "liberal hot air."


Mark in NB
said

I'm an accountant. I see a lot of income tax returns.

What happens to seniors on fixed incomes who pay no income taxes now? Any decrease in income taxes for them is pointless.

So for them the only change they see with the Liberal plan is an increase in heating costs?

I have voted Liberal and Conservative in the past. This plan does not make me want to vote Liberal. My parents will freeze under this plan.


Dan-Yellowknife
said

As if it is not bad enough. In yellowknife N.W.T. it is already costing $1400.00 per month to heat a regular house in the winter months due to the increased fuel cost. The last thing people in the north need is more tax on their home heating fuel!



Ted
said

Kevin D, where are you getting all this nonsense from, Eastern Bloc countries are booming and industry is moving there from western Europe, so how will they buy carbon credits from them. The conservative PR department needs to get its info straight. Cons are so good at sowing fear and division and of course ignorance just like Bush.


Craig
said

Apparently Dion is trying to make Canadians believe that they'll be creating a Carbon tax of $15 billion, then reducing income taxes by the same $15 billion. Hence "revenue neutral".

Question - if it is really that simple, why don't the Liberals simply propose to take $15 billion out of general revenue and eliminate the middle man?

Answer - because then they can't pass out the rose coloured glasses and try to hide this $15 billion boondoggle from Canadians.

Because then they don't look like spend happy fools.

Because then they can't point to their platform and say "see, ours is different from the governments".
--------------

Oh and Mr Dion, the only way I'll accept this is revenue neutral is if I get back EVERYTHING I paid out plus interest on my tax return.

That is, a line saying:

2008 purchases:

______ (KwH)
______ (L)

No? Didn't think so.


Peter
said

If this is revenue neutral as the gun registry was suppose to be then maybe we should do the following: On our sales slips we now see the listing of PST, GST or HST as separate items. For the carbon tax it should be listed separately too including any tax that the suppliers pass on on say the added cost to make a chocolate bar. Then once tabulated on a yearly basis say at the end of April it is subtracted from our taxable income at 100%. Now that would be revenue neutral!

This is merely another Liberal tax grab which would have to be corrected by the Conservatives.


Ward Grantham
said

More money for families with children, improved employment credits, working income tax benefits, and a reserve fund. Sounds like a way for Liberals to pay for social programs rather than a Green plan. But then again they needed a way to fund those plans since the GST was reduced.


LB
said

Wouldn't it be easier to sell fuel at a made in CANADA price to Canadians and sell the excess at world prices on the global market. And use the profits to invest in alternative energy. And don't tell me the gov't has no power to set prices. We have the wheat board of Canada and the milk marketing board as examples of price setting agencies. So make an oil marketing agency. No tax is ever neutral - if it was there would be no point in the tax.


Please...
said

Good God no!!! Another Liberal tax scheme! Politicial promises from the liberals are transparent, tiresome and insulting to hard working Canadian taxpayers. Do they expect Canadians to dance in the streets at this one?
The Liberal Party's most naive assumption about the Canadian voter is that they are not as smart as the pompous gas-bags who fill their ranks. A decade or so in the opposition may humble them.


John in London
said

so the 1% tax cut will save me a couple hundred dollars a year ... but I will pay 2 or 3 times that in extra taxes for my electricity, heat, groceries, and everythign else I buy after the liberals inflation tax on everything.

Thanks but I think I will PASS on liberals like I have done for the last 15 years.

I choose Mr Harpers thoughtfull and balanced approach to the GHG issue by regulating industrial polluters.


Doug BC
said

"Josh In Hamilton" poses an interesting question. "If revenue from the carbon tax decreases,do our income taxes go back up""?? It seems to me,in theory they would have to.The government still needs the revenue to run the country.
And,after all,the real goal is supposed to have us reduce our consumption.Like the "deficit reduction tax" was to help balance the budget.Or the GST was a cash grab which Liberals would quash.
Sorry Mr.Dion.You cannot undue a past which clearly shows Liberals cannot be trusted on tax issues.
And finally,no one likes taxes.But at least income taxes are paid on a scale that considers a persons ability to pay.The problem with consumption taxes is that they impose more hardship on lower income people.
The issue is NOT about taxes.It IS about reducing pollution and GHG's. Todays energy prices already have us scrambling to lower our consumption.The tide is turning.Impoverishing even more people is counter productive because taxpayers need a good economy to buy hybrid transportation,or upgrade our homes.
Revenue neutral? Only a really partisan lefty would really believe that.Even the BC NDP is against the carbon tax here.


Peter
said

And how much will this tax reduce greenhouse gases? A green plan with no mention of the projected amounts of reduction is unbelievable. Might sound good in a classroom but for the working Canadian it's a a disaster in motion.


Jack
said

It's a tax grab. How's the money to be managed? Where's it going to go? What happens to people who are unemployed like myself? Will we get a rebate if we pay more, but don't receive anything in return? Fark you Dion. I'm not falling for this crap. It's just another excuse to grab money and mismanage it.


Ray
said

This is as usual, a policy that the Fiberals think that they can be elected as a gov't ( remember getting rid of the GST promise?)

In the last 4-years I have replaced our family cars to those that get 7.0lts/100Km (39 mpg) and 9lts/100 KM,(32.5mpg)after adjusting my personel driving habits. Also updated my furnace to a 92% efficency one. I did this without gov't hand outs or tax relief, just a belief in reducing my fuel consumption to lower my fuel bills ( and carbon output). Guess what, I live in Alberta, we do not need any gov't rules, as the free market increasing fuel prices have done it for us.

This policy is doomed for failure, the fiberal party has finally proven that they are totally out of touch with Canadians and think that gov't control is all important instead of showing leadership. Leadership is defined as "The ability to make people do WHAT you WANT THEM to do , because THEY want to do it.
The LPC has not shown this princple for a very long time.


Stanley
said

Reduce my weekly garbage bag limit from 3 bags to 1. Make me buy a smart meter. Make me buy a composter. Make me recycle more that just #1 and #2 plastics and newspaper. Stop selling me incandescent light bulbs.

The items above will allow me to feel as though I'm doing my part in reducing emissions and doing something good for the environment. The money flying out of my wallet and bank account don't seem to have the same effect.

How much of our tax dollars have already been spent on this silly Carbon Tax plan? Stop wasting my money already.

Make people feel good about saving the environment...not worried sick about going bankrupt.


ARJAY
said

Thanks to Kevin D. for injecting some facts into the discussion. Here are some more from various websites:

"An extensive study of the Swedish CO2 tax carried out by the Swedish Envirnomental Protection Agency concluded that 'the CO2 tax has helped reduce emissions of CO2 in line with Swedish environmental policy. The Danish Ministry of Finance concluded that the effect of the carbon tax regime lowered CO2 emissions by 4.7% from 1988 to 2000.'"

Another site (Norway):

"Although total emissions have increased we find significant reductions in emissions per unit of GDP...but these emissions represent only 2% of an overall reduction of 14%."

It seems that other juristictions in the world are actually having some success at reducing CO2 using a carbon tax, but that this must be combined with other methods to hvae a real impact on the envirnoment.

Best approach: implement, check results, modify plan as needed.

But do something rather than whining about taxes and debating climate change. It's getting to be toolate for that.


Jennifer from Toronto
said

This is an idea that unfortunately only works really well for larger cities with established transit systems.

As we know, Canada also has hundreds of tiny communities where the inhabitants are forced to rely on personal transportation to go to work everyday, sometimes commuting for an hour each way.

The people who live in these villages and towns are already being stretched to the limit with the current cost of gas, and for those who are self employed, an income tax break just doesn't make any difference.

It seems to me that as much as this plan is coming from a place of good intention, all it will do is prove a larger separation between those who have, and those who have not.



Greig
said

What is he going to do to help B.C'ers negate the upcoming 2.4 cent/litre Liberal carbon tax?? Hit us with another Liberal tax. One pocket pitched by the Provincial Liberals and the other pocket picked by the Federal Liberal Party. Maybe I'll beat the exodus and move to Cuba or China,where at least the winters are better.


Don
said

Our electricity in BC mostly comes from dams. Carbon costs are zero. How about electricity generated from solar, wind or nuclear energy? How is a carbon tax applicable? Heating oil but not gasoline????? By this logic, if I buy diesel from a gas station and put it in my furnace, it will circumvent the tax. The Liberals are wasting everyone's time and money.(as usual) Come up with a real plan or go away. Al Gore and his $200,000 a year electricity bill too. Credibility zero.


Penny
said

I just got my last heating bill for the summer,$832.00. Any suggestions as to how I can pay more next winter and still put food on the table? I already sat with blankets and sweaters. Give me a break! I really think all politicians are in government only for the pension.


David
said

A lot of the electricity generated in this country is generated without the carbon by-product. Why would that be subject to a carbon tax?

There is simply no proof that our use of fossil fuels is causing global warming.

This whole program is a scam to create a new revenue stream.

There is no reason for us to increase tax on fuels. The increasing price will be sufficient to curb demand and provide government with sufficient revenue to fund further tax cuts.



hopeless
said

Whew! Now that this new tax will be making things easier for the working class and the planet is now protected, I will sleep better at night! I might not be able to afford to live, or die, for that matter, but I will be able to sleep. (they haven't put a tax on that yet, have they?)


What a Joke
said

What's next? Are the liberals going to have an exhale tax? We all exhale CO2 you know. Maybe that's a good thing, then people like Dion and his minions will breath less.


Allan Eizinas
said

I think that this latest Liberal proposal will take some time to explain and understand. The different parties will emphasize, cajole, deride and probably lie to try to convince the electorate that their party position is the “best” one.

My initial reaction is that this latest approach is to tax (collect revenue) from those creating the pollution and decrease taxes (distribute that revenue) to the consumers who are paying the increase on commodities because of the special tax.

The concept seems to make sense but I will wait to hear the details and statistics that support this plan.

The only way you change consumer behavior is through the pocketbook.

Support or resistance will probably depend on how each individual feels about the problem of pollution and consequently on global warming.


Dick Varley
said

I have to laugh at the comments of "IT Manager in Calgary." Two things will happen if Dion's plan was implemented. 1: Corporations will pass any additional cost on to the consumer so that they can maintain profit levels or, 2: the cost of doing business will become prohibitive and business will shut down or leave the country. Jobs will be lost, the service industries will suffer and the standard of living will decline. However, Liberal "Fat Cats" will survive. Oh well, "Atlas Shrugged."



Graeme
said

This plan doesn't make any sense. Taxing essential services is meaningless - they can just pass it onto the customer instead of actually doing anything for the environment. This may work for some industries, but things like electricity and heating need regulation, not a tax increase. This plan will just create a lot of confusion and hurt those making the least (they already pay little/no income tax and now will have more expensive heating and electricity). I normally support the Liberals, but this plan doesn't make sense.


RM
said

As a federal civil servant, (already 255,000 strong) I welcome another huge bureacracy. Maybe another 5,000 - 10,000 new government employees to handle the taxes, do inspections on companies, come up with engery conservation tips.....


Ryan
said

Isn't the point of carbon taxing to motivate people to shift to a greener, less energy consuming lifestyle (thus reducing the carbon tax collected). As I see it, they either expect it not to work, or have plans to increase other taxes as it does work.
Either way, I think the comments on how this will affect low income seniors who won't benefit from other tax cuts on and live in older, less efficient homes, shows the big problem with this plan. Until they start with the subsidizations and we all know where that money comes from.


commando
said

Is it just me or does it appear that all the Liberals want to do is, tax this, tax that, and then promise over $15.4 billion in tax savings?!?!?! It unbelievable, every time they get into office, it's let see how much of the taxpayers money we can blow down the drain. As far as I am concerned, Stephen Harper has lowered taxes and has given us $100 a month to cover for my daycare costs! Don't worry Stephen Harper, you got my vote. We cannot afford to let this Liberal leader into office because he'll run this country into the ground.


Bill
said

The Liberals are hilarious. They claim their plan is revenue neutral, then they proceed to start annoucing a plethora of social programs they are going to finance with the revenues raised from our attempts to keep our families warm in January.

What a joke. This is nothing more than a massive tax grab by raising energy prices when they are already sky-high.

The Liberals are hiding behind their "Green Shift" to implement their Marxist wealth distribution scheme and social engineering plots.

The market is dictating changes in energy use as we speak. You see it by the new cars being rolled out and proposals for new nuclear plants from Alberta to New Brunswick. Leave the taxpayers alone and allow the market to continue to work.


James in NB
said

Can someone explain to me why the "average family" heating with oil will see their annual costs go up $203 while the same heating with natural gas will go up $255. That's a 25% penalty for using a more CO2 emission friendly fuel source!

As for those of us who heat our homes with wood; wait for it - they will find a way to tax it as a CO2 emitter.

I would like to see the details to be able to judge this program on the facts rather than all the assumptions being made but I can not see anyway this will not result in higher costs for everything. I personally feel that before the Conservatives levelled their pre-emptive criticism of the plan the Liberals were more than ready to add a carbon tax to all fuels but backed down because of the unpopularity of the idea.

Face it World, life is going to get more expensive no matter who you are and where you live and regardless of who is in power.


Doug
said

There has been a leadership vacuum in this country for years. Dion has shown leadership on this file. Let's have some honest debate for a change. Harper's childish antics won't enourage serious discussion. The "it won't work because it is a Liberal idea" takes us no where.


DF in rural Ontario
said

I have a 95% efficient oil furnace and a thermostat set @ 65F during the winter. My heating bill this year was 3500.00. My house is 2000 square feet. that is pretty much a std size. Next year I will heat only with wood to cut my cost back to about 800.00. To bad that it pollutes more than the oil does.


Wake Up Call
said

OK, I read the full document at www.thegreenshift.ca.
My take on it is that it sucks to be me in this scenario. I receive the least amount of tax rebate, because as usual the income tax rebates dip in the middle class. According to the costing in the report almost all of the rebate [$226 Tax of $337 Rebate] will go to paying for the Natural Gas Heating my home. Of the $111 left, it will cost me $180 in additional tax to drive my 7L/100Km fuel efficient car from work to home, which would end up costing me $69 more.
At first look $69 in visible extra taxes is not too bad, the only problem is everything else that was not listed in the Liberal Costing Plan. I suspect that every company that pays more for these taxes will just add it to the cost of doing business and mark up tax, just as they would any other expense, and pass it on to the consumer. Nothing was mentioned about Agricultural rebates for Diesel and other costs necessary to sew and reap crops. The entire plan also did not ever once mention how much CO2 would be reduced.
My final assessment is that this is far from a Green Shift, it is possibly at best a green nudge, and saying it won't hurt, is like what the dentist says before jamming a needle into your jaw.


David Peters
said

My note to Steve Janke on Angry In The Great White North:As I sit in my freezing home on June 19 2008 and see the overnight temps in the Cariboo below 32 degrees F, I wonder WTF! Having just returned from a trout fishing hike in a local Provincial Park where I was still walking in snow that would normally be gone by early May, I again wonder WTF!! Something no one has talked about-forget the money aspect of this nonsense- how or who is going to measure the scientific results of all this crap. How big a bureaucracy is this thing going to engender? Who will judge the matter- what are the components? Will I have police similar to the thought police of the human rights commissions snooping around my home measuring my farts, etc etc? As I said to the local greenies who complained about pollution in the election campaign when I was running for City Council: Show me the science. Of course with an attitude like that I never got elected.
Shows how easily the sheeple of Canada get led around by the nose and that if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth. What all this really does is take peoples' attention away from the real issues and focuses on the phony one that Al Gore and Co have dreamed up for their personal gain


Roger57
said

More business will migrate to other countries where there isn't a carbon tax.
The same as when we had the NEP. All the oil companies left for greener pastures. Maybe all the environmentalists think they are saving the earth by buying goods from China. All that has been done is move manufacturing and Pollution to another Country. NIMBY. Out of sight, out of mind


RM
said

Over the last 100 years CO2 has increased 600% to now account for 0.03% of the atmosphere. During the same time period the earth's temperature increased by 0.5C (don't believe me, that's the idiot Gore's figure). The is no such thing as man-made global warm. Dion is looking for more money for social programs on the back of this chimate hoax.


Defiant of London
said

What is this guy smoking?

Here is a simple formula for taxation. More taxes (especially when dealing with fuel) = increase inflation.

In today’s economy we really do not need this. We should be talking about reducing the amount of taxes to sustain our economy.





Bruce
said

A tax plan based on a theory demonstrated through manipulated computer modeling rather than dealing with reality based on data collected through real observations, typical Liberal opportunism to create a pork barrel gravy train.
However, we needn't worry, because the Liberals will continue to sit on their hands throughout next fall, winter and spring. They'll be lucky to be the official opposition after the next election.


Dave
said

I agree with the comment on transit. Recently I took my car to the shop for repair and had 4 hours to waste. I took the bus to visit relatives that would normally be a 15-20 minute drive. The trip took 2 hours on the bus after transfers and weaving around surburbia. They didnt have a bee line route on the 4 lane road that would get there faster.
Translink should hire me for consulting instead of giving themselves a heft wage increase.


club rep.
said

What happens to not for profit organizations. We have a curling club that has about 110 members, we are having to raise our fees by 45% just to cuver the current energy cost increases. Where are we suppose to come up with more money we this plan kicks in. We get no tax breaks or other incentives from the gov't. So I guess we close the doors and take away a source of sports and entertainment.


Jim
said

Its about time we start paying for the pollution we cause!

I'm sorry to hear all these sheep spouting the conservative advertising lines. How much have the conservative tax 'cuts' actually saved anyone.


Don
said

Some of you think this is about "tax the big polluters".

Who do you think these companies pass their costs on to?


Vince M
said

MHR + soviet canuckistan - Promises, Promises... You both obviously have very selective memory. Jean and Pierre were much worse than Steve and Brian.
Terri - Glad to see you appreciate the subsidies for your transit, yet have no compassion for anyone who can not afford to buy a house in the city.
GetInformed BeforeAssuming - Yes, Please do as you say, read it. The Green Shift does not say any CO2 is expected to be reduced.
MB - I wish there was talking going on. If the Liberals were not so vexatious about getting replaced, they could have provided a conciliatory position and tried to mend the discord after their nasty campaign against Steven Harper. Having done so, then trying to work with the elected minority government, rather than scathe ever issue just for the sake of it, may have enabled true consultation between parties and functional committees. The committees have all been about Liberals trying to get revenge on the Conservatives for the Sponsorship Scandal and the other issues which was entirely their fault that led to their fall from power. If the Liberals were more interested in doing what was best for Canada and Canadians than getting re-elected much more could have been accomplished in the last 2 years.
Phil - Proven false numbers, but even if they were not, I bet you like to heat your home in the winter don't you, you can thank Alberta for your heating fuel. On the side, China increased it's CO2 by 2/3 of Canada's entire output from 2004 to 2005, how is Canada's reductions going to help?


Maggie
said

I like this plan. Canadians are the luckiest people on earth, we have incredible resources, and I don't want to be part of a generation that lets our environment deteriorate to the point of unsustainability. It is disheartening to see so many comments from people who are buying the conservative party propaganda hook, line and sinker. The Conservatives are spending all our surplus and soon we will be in debt again, like we were when Mulroney was in power. How quickly we forget!


Barry
said

Wow! $15 billion annual Liberal Party tax increase, PLUS the massive, flow-through increase on the cost of every consumer good that is transported by truck, plane or train because of the gigantic increase on a gallon of gas as a result of Dion’s tax increase.

This major tax increase is a Marxist's dream. Surely even a Marxists Moron like Dion doesn't expect Canadians to buy into this joke. This massive tax increase will result in the redistribution of wealth from the wealth creators to the wealth non-creators such as the welfare bums. Again, as I said: A Marxist's aspiration come true; and all using the anxiety/ pretext of alleged climate change caused by man! What a joke!

Wasn't the GST suppose to be revenue neutral? Yea sure, if you believe that I have a bridge…….. Even if the Feds do cut income tax by part or all of the $15 billion tax increase, the provinces will once again increase their income taxes to make up for the Federal income tax cut. Just like they did when the GST was developed..

And, not stopping with a $15 billion tax increase, the extreme left-wing Liberals are planning to add a Cap-and-Trade tax on top of this. Once again this second Liberal tax increase would increase taxes and drive up the costs of all consumers goods as industries pass through their tax increase. Industries don’t pay taxes; they pass them on to consumers.









Vince M
said

So will BC Hydro send out a carbon tax with the hydro bills? How do they know which is hydro generated and which is carbon generated?

The electricity used is coming off the grid - it could easily come from Alberta natural gas plants or Montana coal powered generators.

And if you think anything coming from Alberta must be carbon, what about Alberta's wind farms - the largest wind power generating region in the country? Going to tax power from those?

Another stupid Liberal make-work-for-snivel-servants project.


Jay, Saskatoon
said

REDUCE YOUR CONSUMPTION!!! Use less energy, buy products with less packaging, buy products that take responsibility for the pollution they cause. If something is too expensive, DON'T BUY IT....the company will get a quick wake-up call.

Conservatives - stop freaking out and realize that this will be GOOD for the economy. If Harper brought this in I would actually vote for him. We HAVE to change...so accept it, take responsibility for your actions, and move on with your life.


Me
said

I am a senior in northern Ontario, living of a fixed income. My furnace oil has more than doubled and now the government wants it's share too. No way!! Dion didn't have my vote before this announcement and if this is an example of what his leadership would be about, he will never have it.


Paul on Vancouver Island
said

I like it! Well thought out and progressive, I'm willing to buy into it.

Glad to see at least the Greens and the Liberals are thinking about our kids' futures.


Wasting more
said

The only shifting that will be done is shifting revenue and businesses to other countries like China. Since the price of gas has already doubled in the past year can't we all agree that is enough incentive to try to reduce our consumption? People need to get a clue. Tax is not the answer. The market has already provided the answer by doubling our costs. I think we should all do what we can to be more respectful of our environment in every way but taxation is not the answer. Education is. Think of how much more is recycled now compared to 20 years ago. That is not because of tax but instead because of education. People will do the right think here in Canada without being taxed. I am sick of FAT government ideas. I have seen the waste in every department of the government. From Childrens Services to Agriculture departments and it's sick. The last thing we need to do is give more money. Try reducing all government budgets by 10%. Hire auditors to check spending habits and use the saved revenue for green incentives for Canadians.


A Real IT Manager in Calgary
said

If anyone thinks that this Liberal scheme will be revenue neutral, then I have a bridge for you to buy.

The Liberals have never met a tax they didn't like and there's no way that the meagre tax cut that professor Dion is suggesting will even come close to keeping up with the costs of buying goods and energy on the market. Everything(!) will go up even faster than it has done in the past year because fuel powers everything in our economy. Raise the cost of fuel and you raise the cost of producing the goods and thus the consumer pays more.

Another scheme by the Liberals to get the leftist green voters aside with them without these same people thinking about the economic problems that the Liberal plan would start. But then again, with the Liberals, it's all about being elected.


Kees Boersma
said

If it is revenue neutral why not create a carbon account and divert the money that was intended to be given back through tax cuts into that account. Instead of taxing and taxing and taxing. I will never forget the GST that was supposed to be wiped out by the Liberals. These dreamers should open their eyes and deal with reality.


Kris D
said

This makes perfect sense to me: Tax things we want less of (pollution), and cut taxes on things we want more of (income).

It gives me control over how much taxes I actually have to pay. If I want to pay less taxes, I walk or bike to work, and/or change other habits.

Right now if I want to pay less taxes, I have to work less! I am being taxed for working hard.

Something is wrong with that.

This tax shift makes sense for the economy, taxpayers and the for the environment.


Darrell
said

This is fantastic! Of all the commenters here, only a few are supportive of Dion. And even they are unable to defend the actual proposed tax itself; they just call everybody else names and say "Go Stephane!" as though that's some kind of substitute for policy.

Draven
said

Cost of production goes up.. charge the consumer. Cost of transportation goes up.. charge the consumer. Who can possibly deny that we won't be paying through the nose for everything we consume since every increase for the production on down the line is going to be passed onto the consumer. The producers aren't going to produce if they don't make a profit so they will either stop producing or charge more, what a typically un-thoughtout liberal plan.


WMS
said

Bravo Mr Dion. The shift in tax to the polluters is a good move. Someone is finally addressing the climate change issue in Canada. We are about the last of the G8 countries to do so now that Mr Harper is about loose Mr Bush. The current government continues to have its head in the sand. Time for a change!


Brad Jones
said

This is insane! It is amazing how our government justifies forcing new taxes on us and we fall for it every time. I am from Vancouver and we already have this new unfair tax and I am mad as hell! We have transit levy, PST, GST... and now this. Currently, the tax portion of our fuel is something like 50%. That is nuts!
Not to mention the industries produce about 35% of so called green house gas emissions and they are exempt. And how will this help people who do not file income tax return but still have to pay for gas and hydro and...

Martin
said

Saw Dion at a press conference. When asked some rather simple questions by the media, questions I and most people have about his new tax plan, he went into a rambling mode, making little sense or providing little insight. What the rising middle class in China has to do with the question of heating fuel prices in Canada is beyond my poor understanding. Based on that little performance I think the Liberals are in trouble.


BairdsHotAirCausesGlobalWarming
said

Let's see ... how much did the Conservatives blow on Military equipment this year (or maybe it was last year)? 15 Billion? I wonder if we reduced all the "war" efforts we'd probably not need to be spending quite that amount would we?

Some of that money could easily be dedicated to helping seniors and low-income Canadians to cope with any increased costs with home heating or to encourage Cdns to purchase more efficient products through rebates.

If we do nothing, the prices are still going up, pollution is going up and guess what the cost of health care directly attributable to pollution (asthma, lung cancer, long-term exposure to chemicals/pollutants) increases, so we'll pay the same amount but in another way (that does nothing to help the situation).

We can tax companies from outside that make products that aren't produced using green energy sources/techniques and support ones that do here at home (I too am not happy with all the job losses in the manufacturing sectors that have been shipped overseas to China/Asia).

Harper and Baird have got their heads in the (Oil)Sand(s).



Dean
said

The Liberal plan is like two icebergs...Dion places the tax cut iceberg so it looks huge and the carbon tax imposition so you only see the tip.

Keep in mind, he takes in ALL the carbon tax. Some he refunds in small income tax cuts...other $$ goes for varied interests the Liberals want to court (e.g. family bonuses and "Green" projects that the Liberals will decide to fund)

To this middle class voter, I know I'll be screwed at one end and that I'm not in the radar screen to get much of the Liberal candy at the other...

This is a lot like Vegas...the Liberals will ensure that "the House always wins" and we the taxpayers will lose.


Ron Speakman
said

Get real people - everyone complains about what is happening to the environment but nobody is willing to pony up themselves in the slightest to see change.

This policy may not be popular, but it shows leadership and I have to respect Dion for that.


Eco Taxes Are Good
said

It's shocking the number of people who do not have a clue as to how income tax works in Canada. Everyone's first 37,000 in earnings gets a 1.5% reduction on that amount, then if you made more (e.g. 45,000) you would get a 1% reduction on the amount from 37,000 to 45,000.

This plan likely won't be neutral, but as long as it creates some incentive for people to be more environmentally friendly, I don't mind paying.
Also, if it does create a surplus, use it to pay down the debt. All the lazy boomers want the benefits of government but not the responsibility of paying for it.


Tom
said

Boy, the Cons were sure primed for this announcement. I wonder how many of these ordinary folk comments are from Conservative plants.I'll keep an open mind until I see the details.If Dion falls, at least he'll fall on his sword pushing something he believes in.


Amanda
said

GetInformed BeforeAssuming:
"If we don't tax higher to the worst abusers/users then they will never change". I think you need to take your own advice. How are the worst abusers/users supposed to change if there is no other alternative. Instead of whining about cutting greenhouse emissions and saying that we all can by not heating our homes (which many low income families can't afford as it is), by not driving our cars etc... (Hello, these thing are necessary, we do live in Canada)how about they propose a plan that gives us another eco-friendly option to do these things that are necessary in Canada?because until they do we won't stop consuming, because we can't!


BairdsHotAirCausesGlobalWarming
said

Vince M:

I'm sure BC Hydro, like all other utilties would have equipment that tells them how much electricity is coming from which source/line. So yes, if 80% of electricity is produced by methods which produce carbon and 20% are from sources like wind power, then I would expect that only 80% would be subject to any carbon tax.

Your laptop is smart enough to know when it's running off the battery or the wall outlet, so it's not that much different for the power co. to tell where it's power is coming from at any given time.


Justin - Economics students
said

This is the most pathetic and ignorant bunch of people I have come across, for those who argue against the plan. I even saw someone that said that Europe had carbon taxes and higher unemployment and such but first of all only a few european countries have them. For all of you I suggest leaning economics and psychology as psychological effects of some increases in price as it will increase in the long term followed by senior tax deductions, heavy tax-cuts for low-income earners and general tax reductions will in the short term have some higher prices but if in developed nations follow it could kill high oil prices in the long term.

LEARN ECONOMICS, VERIFY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE...

AND STOP BEING NARROW MINDED




alex
said

Why are we doing something like this when the developing countries are pouring greenhouse gases into the air unchecked? They are not even part of Kyoto. So until everyone is included globally, this whole thing is a sham. Mr. Dion was in power a while back and they did nothing. In the future, I would like to see what the government does when we all go back to the horse and buggy and no one has a job because all the factories are shut down to reduce emissions!


Catherine
said

Has anyone though about the fact that this Carbon Tax (average 10%) will cause an inflation spiral? The more the costs are passed down to the individuals, the more the individuals will be negotiating for higher pays, which then in turn causes costs goods and services to increase.

And if there is a inflationary cost of goods and services beyond the current Bank of Canada threshold, the interest rates will increase. Does anyone want to return to the 14, 15, 18, 20% mortgage rates?


Chuck Berry from SK
said

The median income in Canada is $22 000. 50% of Canadian workers will see no noticeable reduction in their income tax bill. They will, however, pay more for everything else because the carbon tax at the wholesale level will be passed on at the retail level. The lowest income earners will be hardest hit by Dion's new tax on everything. This cannot be denied.


Layton in Moncton
said

The concept of a carbon tax is great, its the way it will be implemented that is off the rails! Its quite simple, a sales tax that is sliding. Lower for environmentally friendlier choices, and steadily higher for waste. For example, a bottle of water could have a 20% tax since basically you are buying a glass of water from half way across the country. What a waste of energy! Vehicles that get better than 35MPG in the city could maybe be tax free. Perhaps tier the electrical rates so that the more you use the more you pay, each 'block' of power costs more. But yet no tax on 'green power'. I think the issue here is that the scholarly Stephane Dion, has it all wrong. Dangle a carrot and don't spare the rod.


Paul
said

Since when is anything the government ever done been revenue neutral? Mr. Dion is going to tax home heating costs? What about seniors that are on a fixed income? All transportation costs for goods and services will go up. This will in turn drive up their costs, which will elevate inflation. Does anyone believe this is a workable idea? How will this improve our environment? Let me get this right. Canada gets to bankrupt it's citizens for a bogus 'green plan'. In the mean time China will continue their polluting unabated. Good Lord, are Canadians that stupid they will fall for this pie-in-the-sky scheme?


TG
said

Okay, I will agree to the point that yes pollution and the environment is a growing problem, but this is the wrong way to address it. To me a 1.5% tax cut does not meaning anything to people making $38,000 and below, and as a middle class person a 1% cut to income tax does nothing better. I think we have to do the math here and realize that people do not want to fork out more than they have to. I will guarantee you that if this plan was accepted today and went into action tomorrow, the gas prices, and food, and merchindise would go up much higher than already forecasted, and we have not (for the most part) reached there forecast and we are already in a great struggle and cannot afford to be paying much more than we already are. Yes, we need an environment plan, but please not at the hefty cost of Canadian consumers, and Canada's economy itself


James
said

Hey all you die hard Tory blog posters (including the ones at Conservative Alliance headquarters who like to take immature shots at the Liberals) I'd Suggest you go over to the Liberal website and read the text of this plan before you knock it (BE INFORMED). This plan is modelled after similar plans that are proving successful in Europe. It's simple if you live greener and cleaner you'll pay less tax & it's working for Sweden & Britian.


Oh, come on sheep!
said

Oh no, an environmental plan that will actually cost money!!! Cons, run for the hills!

Seriously, does no one realize that these things cost money? He's proposing an income tax break... better than a GST cut (1% income tax break is far better than 2% GST for just about everybody). Anyways, this country has been in dire need of a tax reform and it's not a Conservative government that will give it to us. If anything they'll put us back in a deficit with no way of paying off our debt.

Sorry but my two main areas of concern are the economy and the environment... two things I would never trust the harperites with.


Alex Sz
said

Before this, I would like to see every LIBERAL drive a hybrid that THEY paid for, each of their homes better have 99% efficient appliances, they better ride their bike to the office EVERY DAY and lastly, buy only organic, locally grown, fruits and vegetables. What? They can't do that, then why force the rest of us. Revenue neutral my &&&. I hope they dont have to fly anywhere because the airline industry will be gone.

China and India are laughing at us.

Bill
said

Dion kept saying how great the tax credits are. All the money contributed to this lieberal carbon tax will be tax deductable. Guess what happens to tax credits after the next lieberal budget, gone. Or the GST returns to it's original level. You pick. I can hear him now, The Conservative's gave away all our Lieberal play money. Hell will freeze over before I vote for this party.


JL Castlegar
said

The carbon tax will force Canadians to burn wood or other poluting material for house heating. Instead of reducing greenhourse effect, it will increase carbon emission from Canada.


Ian Anderson
said

I've read the plan it it's really quite sensible. Being a small-c conservative, I feel that the government should reduce income taxes. This plan allows me to choose how much tax I want to pay to government with my own hard earned money. And it's much better than anything the Harper government has come up with to fight climate change (something Harper used to deny existed).


Joy
said

The low income people will be WORSE OFF. He seems to think that most people have $60,000 per year, and low is $20,000. However, there are many people who have $15,000 or less, and these people will be much worse off. The rich and upper middle income will benefit at their expense.


Biochemist in BC
said

I'm a grad student at a university in BC living in campus housing. I don't make enough money to pay taxes, so this will personally increase my cost of living. However, I'm still strongly in favour of this plan -- and I wonder, when are people going to realize that there is no cost too great to pay to ensure the future of humanity and this planet?


George
said

Because the lowest income earners spend the least, they are the ones who gained the least from the conservatives' GST reduction. I didn't notice many complaints about that.

The biggest shame is on Jack Layton. He knows very well that if he was ever in power, the NDP would bring in a Carbon Tax, just like every forward thinking government in Europe.

As long as the money is used for energy and environmental research this will be just the first small step. At least it means we would take the first step forward, today, and not in 50 years like the other guys' plan.


Claude Bisson
said

These folks are totally out of touch with the average Canadian citizen. A huge tax grabs again that will not help the low or middle income earner at all. The Liberals have gone bonkers! Any extra tax on the carbon footprint of the larger companies will siimply be passed on to the consumer. We need less government and that will bring everyone's taxes way down. Crazy indeed!


BC Nicole
said

Been there done that. Just in case any of you want to know what happens with a carbon tax. Our BC carbon tax is coming into effect on (how ironic) Canada Day. Before it was law my gas company implemented a "adminstrative cost increase" equal to the amount of the carbon tax. Wow what an incentive for the big polluters, an extra 2 second computer change to add the charge on. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. And to the young lady living in the city with "no footprint" look around you. The fact that you live in the city is a footprint all in itself. You complain about us "in the country driving our gas hogs" but we at least have a chance to live off the grid and be self suffcient, where will you be when the power goes out for 2 weeks.


Cathy
said

The Liberal sheep are being fleeced once again.


Mike Webster
said

I just had one of the best laughs of my life listening to Mr. Dion shriek about his "Green" tax grab. Mr Dion, actually accused the Tories of using "Republican Style" attack ads! The Liberal party - the party that brought us the infamous "troops on our streets" ad complaining about so-called "Republican style" attack ads! I guess they aren't "Republican style" when the Liberals use them!


GhostDog
said

Mr. Dion plan doesn't explain one important point when it comes to lowering your income tax. To implement this action means the provinial government will be receiving less from you so guess what will happen? you got it! The province will raise their percentage to make up for what they have lost and once again you will be paying more out of your pocket. That's the old Liberal way; to tell you half the story. However, the present government isn't any better so "what to do, what to do."

Joyce.
said

"Will be paid for by the biggest Industry emitters", which will eventually come back for an increase to consumers. This is not a Revenue neutral proposal. I have not seen anything for the farmers truckers etc. Remember the Gun Registry, the cancelling of the GST by this leader's leader in 1993. What about the reintroduction by Mr. Dion to adding back the already reduced 2% on the GST. This sounds like another fiasco we the taxpayers know will ultimately bring extra costs when all is said and done.


Why always a TAX.
said

Why must Liberals always want a TAX. The theory here is to change canadian habits by making bad behaviour expensive therefore we change our behaviour. I have a better idea.
Ban all vehicles that get bad gas mileage. there are no need for big SUVs or Hummers! For those that say we need them in winter, we did just fine without them for years.

How about reducing taxes on home repairs to improve efficiency. Rebates for old furnaces, support to get energy efficient windows, solar and wind power.
support nuclear power and close coal plants! Increase energy efficiencies for consumer products. These are ways to improve without TAXing.


Jim Haddad
said

I don't know what Dion is thinking but I have to words for him. Political Suicide.


sboatright
said

"Revenue Neutral" is not the same as "this tax won't cost you anything as an individual taxpayer".

In order to fund the subsidies and tax credits for those who expect to receive - others will be paying for it. Since the money has to come from somewhere - it stands to reason that some Canadians will get screwed in this grand scheme.

The middle class will once again bear the burden of a misguided politician's bad ideas.

Punishing people for heating their homes and putting food on the table is NOT an acceptable answer - and trying to disguise a revenue generator for social programs as a carbon tax that helps the environment will not get you votes.


DWB
said

Celine hasn't retired yet?

Will he sing Green Berets, and the Green Green Grass of Home for us?

His final song should be a rousing rendition of Taxman.




Geoff
said

How many times are the liberals going to promise universal child care.

And weren't they going to eliminate GST?

Maybe more empty promises and an a new empty slogan will get Canada to elect them again


Roadrobber
said

I'm getting my wood burning stove installed tomorrow.


Norm
said

The scariest thing about this whole plan is how naive some Canadians are in that they believe what the Liberals are trying to sell them. This will result in lost income and jobs and WILL not help the enviroment one bit. What the Chinese put into the air in one year will erase everything we do in ten years.


impartial
said

i find it interesting that some many people were quick to comment negatively. remember the scandal were conservative staffers were spamming radio talk shows to get their point across?
the plan is good and bad. it isn't perfect. one thing it is without question is that it is better than the lipservice the conservative government masks as a plan. first the conservatives offered lipservice, now they offer cheap, childlike attack ads that reek of low mindedness.

Louis-Paul
said

All this is going to do is tax us for living.

Canada is a huge country and very far north. We need to use up a tremendous amount of energy just to maintain basic living capability (ie stay above 10*C).
I would consider suing the governement for taxing a necessity for life, litteraly.

Roadrobber
said

If Dion and the Liberal Party get their way on this, Canadians will have only two choices...should I "eat" or "heat"?


Douglas
said

With huge taxes on gas and heating oil etc. now - we already have a carbon tax! Governments have just mis- appropriated it for other expenses! If this additional tax is to be revenue neural what;s the point of taking it with one hand and giving it back with the other - clearly the Liberals are planning to keep at least some of it for their own purposes!


Steve
said

Revenue neutral?... tax on electricity, natural gas, etc?... only big emitters?... so, hmmm... guess more increased costs to our already hurt manufacturing sector... just make us that much les competative, so we lose more jobs.... makes sense to me...

This plan has someone making money, I wonder which Liberal friendly group is gearing up to make a lot of money of regular working Canadians....

I want to look at ways to get green and make a differenece.. how about increasing the standards of how we build housing, or better standards for equipment consumption, etc?.. why do we even alow the sale of poor energy eficient items?.. if we don't allow low eficient items, will manufactures be forced to build more efficient products, and does that make the higher efficient equipment cheaper as time goes on?.. at lest that how I thougt things worked.. but maybe the Liberals don't have friends who own factories making high efficient appliances and other items?...

Dan N
said

I could just weep. Is Mr. Dion determined to give Harper a majority government on a silver platter? How is the world does he think ordinary Canadians are going to sign up for his Green Plan when our standard of living is already under attack. The big polluters are either off the hook or will pass the tax to consumers making every single thing we buy more expensive. Revenue neutral my foot! To top it all off any good that did come out of this by way of carbon reduction in Canada in a year will be wiped out in about 2 weeks by the new coal fired power plants of China and India. This is completely futile. I could never vote for Harper and unless the Liberals dump Dion the NDP is looking good


Do you have children?
said

Do you have children or do you know people who do? Do you wonder what the planet will look like when it comes their turn to raise a family? Answer: Ugly.

The conservatives have no plan to combat climate change and rising fuel prices and don't care. (Attack ads-that's leadership.) The liberals have shown some courage in starting a real discussion on real issues.


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