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Experts split over future housing prices in Canada

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Canada AM: Ted Tsiakopoulos, CMHC

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Bill Doskoch, CTV.ca News

Date: Mon. Mar. 24 2008 8:35 PM ET

With housing prices collapsing in parts of the United States, many Canadians are wondering if the same fate awaits the real estate market here.

Housing experts themselves are divided on that question.

Ted Tsiakopoulos, Ontario regional economist for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, laid out the optimistic case.

"We don't see a U.S.-style housing market meltdown in Canada for three very important reasons," he told Canada AM on Monday.

  • Canadian housing prices have grown in a "steady, sustainable way"
  • Mortgage arrears are at a low level, which suggests financial institutions have been prudent in their lending practices
  • Canada's overall economic fundamentals remain healthy

In mid-March, however, the Royal Bank reported that home ownership costs have risen to the highest point since 1990.

That year marked the "peak of the housing bubble," it said.

However, the bank was optimistic the current situation should ease. "Going forward, falling mortgage rates, cooler forecast house price gains and decent income growth should all lead to improved affordability across most markets," it said.

Tsiakopoulos said the CMHC sees moderate price growth continuing. But Ontario MP Garth Turner has a different view.

The author of a new book, "The Greater Fool: The Troubled Future of Real Estate," Turner thinks the pieces are in place for a real estate collapse in this country.

The U.S. financial sector has been rocked by subprime mortgages, which essentially provided a way into real estate for people who wouldn't qualify for conventional mortgages. But Turner told CTV.ca the real story is that housing prices in the U.S. got more expensive than Americans could afford.

In Canada, real estate prices have essentially doubled in five years. Turner said he didn't think that was a "reasonable" increase.

Over that period, household incomes have stayed essentially flat, he added.

Mortgages in Canada?

"What's been the Canadian response? Well, guess what? We've brought in a new kind of mortgage -- 40-year amortizations," Turner said.

You can also get a home for virtually no money down, Turner said. "You tell me what the difference between subprimes and a 40-year, no-down-payment loans in Canada is. The net effect is exactly the same. People buy houses who otherwise couldn't buy them."

In the biggest markets, people are unquestionably house-poor, he said.

The RBC's affordability measure for a detached bungalow in Vancouver is about 74 per cent and more than 47 per cent in Toronto.

Places like Calgary and Edmonton come closer to the national average of 41 per cent.

The affordability measure is the proportion of median pre-tax household income required to service the cost of mortgage payments (principal and interest), property taxes and utilities.

The measure has traditionally been around 30 per cent, Turner said. "We've got a very screwed-up personal financial situation right now, and I see some dangers in that," he added.

RBC's Amy Goldbloom told CTV.ca that an RBC study finds that for 2007, the U.S. situation was worse than here. Mortgage debt there was 119 per cent of disposable income versus about 79 per cent in Canada. Total household debt was also much higher in the U.S. than Canada. "Americans are more indebted and more leveraged," she said.

Goldboom said the RBC's analysis and prediction of moderate price increases took into account a slowing U.S. economy's effect on Canada. "We aren't forecasting outright declines in prices as we're seeing state-side," she said.

But Turner rolled off some troubling statistics, such as sales activity of resale homes in Canada falling six per cent in February -- although some critics have argued that blip could be due to stormy winter weather.

In his own riding of Halton west of Toronto, houses are staying on the market for up to 12 months and are falling in price, he said.

"Why you would want to be a new purchaser of real estate right now is beyond me," he said, adding that many young people have only known real estate to go up in value.

If you still want to buy a home, Turner makes the following recommendations:

  • Don't take out a 40-year mortgage
  • Aim for a 20 per cent down payment
  • Don't make monthly payments -- accelerate if possible
  • Consider what future homeowners will want to purchase (i.e., don't buy a huge, energy-hogging suburban home)

But if you don't own real estate right now, consider remaining a renter for the short term.

"We're into the most incredible renter's market coming up. If you simply want to make money and secure your finances, you're going to rent, because renting is far, far less than the cost of owning right now," Turner said. "And it will remain that way for the next couple of years."

Comments are now closed for this story

Neil
said
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Lower mortgage rates hasn't helped home buyers because money saved on interest has gone to real estate agents and developers.


Jamal
said
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Buyers in Calgary and Vancouver are in over their heads and those markets will crash and the downfall will be felt for decades but it will be isolated to those buyers and not part of a larger economic downturn.

The United States housing market is crumbling because of the interest only mortgages that unscrupulous lending institutions handed out to every tom,dick and harry who wanted a mansion he couldn't afford. The delusions of these homeowners are coming home to roost and the unethical criminals who gave handed out those illegal mortgages like lollipops are folding. Canadas economy and housing market is not built on these pie in the sky dreams but on real people with real incomes purchasing real homes and real mortgages.

The 40 year amortization mortgages are going to have some unforseen future consequences like housing shortages because these are consumers who could normally only afford to rent.


JFJ
said
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When you wish upon a star makes no difference who you are.....


Bryan James
said
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The markets go up and down ... that's the way things go. I'm sure if you predict an event, SOMEDAY it will happen.

I've read Garth's book and if you'd like an easy read synopsis on the real estate market in Canada over the last couple of years (including the sale of his house which is documented in his book, but never identified as his) spend the 20 bucks.

It has lots of information on the coming doom to the real estate markets and lots of illegible charts from US examples.

Other than that, I think Canadian ivestors are in for a bit of a rough ride but nothing compared to what Mr Turner is predicting.


Wes
said
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The cost of purchasing a house currently is getting a little out of control. I think that prices will have to come down and that some people will see a rapid decline in their home's value. That said I don't think that in Canada the amount of defaulted loans will will be a factor. Simply outragous prices will keep houses on the market for far too long. If people want to move or developers want to sell the property they will have to cut prices.


FN
said
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As much as we might not want to face it, I think Garth Turner is correct.

I'm afraid the real estate bubble is about to burst and there are a lot of people out there that will be out in the cold. I don't believe it will be as bad as what's going on in the US, but it'll be bad nonetheless.


Jeanne
said
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I totally agree with "Jamal". Housing prices in Canada have crept up slowly, and have NOT skyrocketed - at least here in Toronto. But they are going to STAY high here - because they are worth it. ... Toronto real estate is sound, and will NOT be going down in price at ALL - so don't worry if you own a property.

Dan
said
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The real bubble is in the condo market. Here in BC, they cannot build $400K - $1M condos fast enough, but ironically, just over 40% of condos are not sold to live-in owners. They are being bought by flippers who are out of them within 12 months. What happens when this stops being profitable? 40% of the condos will suddenly hit the market and drive down prices. The average condo buyer is a first time buyer and does not have the financial cushion to sustain a hit on price. Danger Will Robinson, danger!


Norm
said
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When I was a kid, a family home consisted of 3 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, an eat-in kitchen and a couch down in the unfinished basement which we called a recroom. Now it seems that an average home has 4 bedrooms, 2 or 3 bathrooms, double car garages etc... Me thinks our expectations are increasing faster than our pay cheques. We can scoff at the Americans for overextending themselves, but we are just as guilty here. Greed is universal.


Canadian Developer
said
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The notion of a real estate adjustment in Canada is upon us all - especially in larger urban areas. One must also consider the facts about increased real estate prices in the context of regional economies where affordability is fast becoming a major issue.

To suggest that developers and real estate brokers are the sole beneficiaries of these increases is incorrect and baseless.

The fact of the matter is simple.

Most homeowners buy a house as an investment to top up their plans for retirment.

A house is no longer a home in the truest sense.

For those who are not old enough to have experienced similar cycles perhaps a little research will show the downturn of Canada's real estate markets in 1978, 1980 and 1991 - most of which were caused by speculative buyers who left developers holding the bag.



Neil
said
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Jeanne "...... Toronto real estate is sound, and will NOT be going down in price at ALL - so don't worry if you own a property."


I wouldn't bet the farm on that!!

Housing prices are lower in Toronto because wager are lower compared to BC or Alberta and with losses in manufacturing the net effect may even be worst here.


Albert
said
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This is a fascinating evolution and brilliant scheme by the banks and real estate industry. By introducing 40-year mortgages, house prices can go up, up, up. Now you spend your entire working life paying the bank instead of saving for your retirement. Then when you retire at 75 and realize you are poor, you have to sell your house back to the bank in a cheap reverse mortgage. The banks get you both coming and going. Unless you are in the small top fraction of wealth and can pay off your home, you really just borrow your house from the bank for a few decades, and give most of your money to them. This is the new reality. Congratulations to the banks for record profits.


Steve
said
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For all the doom-and-gloom, if you exclude Florida, Nevada, California (price bubble) and Ohio, Michigan, and parts of Illinois (auto pains), the U.S. housing situation is not that dire -- ya its not good, but its not falling apart. Parts of Canada will feel pain (read Oshawa, etc.), and price gains likely will be nil for a few years, but we won't see prices collapse, and ya gotta live somewhere... Also, mortgage rates are coming down (especially when credit markets recover), and 40-year amortizations are nothing like reverse amortization with nothing down. Garth is just trying to sell some books, but it is good to keep reality in check.
On the plus, housing is a great hedge against inflation...


Leaving Alberta
said
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No one seems to mention what the affect on the housing market is going to be when boomers start dying in record numbers...scary no?


David
said
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House prices will go up until people can't afford to pay more.

I sure wouldn't be going in to a house or condo with 5% down.

If the stock market can fall, the housing market can fall. Every property owner should have a plan for riding it out.


Brooke Allen Vaughan
said
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How can there truly be an affordability issue. When people stop buying $5 coffees $3 bottled water daily, get rid of the cellphones and other non necessary gadgets ( gamebys, PSP, DSlites ) that are frankly nothing but a drain on family incomes then maybe they could afford a home.


Condo Man
said
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I currently live in a Condo in Edmonton that was built in 2005 and sold out in record time. However what is not being reported is that over 40% of the suites are unoccupied. The suite across from me has been sold 6 times and no one has ever lived in it. The developer who is building two twin tower condos right beside us has been having trouble because speculators are now walking away from their deposits. We are definately overbuilding and are suffering from oversupply.


JP Levesqe
said
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I live in Victoria, BC and just purchased a home. I was amazed at what the real estate agents get away with - The have made house prices here very very high as greed is a factor with them- They get away with thing not premited in other provinces and there fees eat any savings


Priced out
said
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Someone on here mentioned wages being higher in BC and Alberta than Toronto, I'm in Vancouver and have heard the same argument reversed. My wife and I make combined $130K/year and we can not afford a home, condo yes but we don't want to bother. Currently we rent for 1/3 the cost of owning the same place, savings keep piling up but we are under constant pressure from all sides to step up and get in the market. I don't buy a stock on a 52 week high, why am I going to buy a house on a historic high? Due diligence doesn't seem to be in any new buyers vocabulary, especially the speculators.


Howard H
said
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So the Ontario Regional Economist for Canada Housing and Mortgage says 'not so bad' and Garth Turner Liberal MP says 'the sky is falling'. Is there a credibility gap here?


Jessie D
said
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Jamal: Why would there be a crash in Vancouver? It's the most desirable place to live in Canada (if not the whole of North America), furthermore there's only a finite amount of land available for development given the geography. A crash across the country will only be brought about by substantially higher interest rates or a tightening of the lending rules.

On an international scale by comparison housing in Vancouver is still a massive bargain, and considering it consistently voted the best city in the world to live I`d say there`s plenty of head room for even higher prices.



MarkMan
said
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A few years ago, I bought a house. This is a good thing, because I and my wife will have someplace to live when I retire. As a matter of fact, retirement and payment of mortgage are at about the same date. If I were to be really smart, I would increase my weekly payments, thereby paying for my house sooner.
I don't have the latest-and-greatest e-whizbangs. Neither do I feel I need them.
I just bought a new car. The old one was 13 years old. If I had taken better care of it, I would probably be still driving it. I would also be paying less for insurance.
As I see it, debt is a choice. One chooses to go into debt to purchase a car or a house. One can also choose to go into debt to purchase other things.
I have made the choice to purchase a house and car and I accept the responsibility of my payments.
I have also chosen NOT to enter into debt for things that I really don't need; like a 52" LCD HDTV. When the time comes that I decide to purchase, I'll pay in cash.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to talk to my mortgage company.


Dallas Kunkel
said
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DBK
I bought Nortel on Garth Turner's advice. I don't consider him a "Financial Expert".
When it comes to debt, it's always best to keep it within your means, regardless of what it is for.
Real estate is a good way to create wealth. It will continue to fluctuate in value as any investment will.


Moon-See
said
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Mr. Turner has been chicken little since 1998, writing articles for the Real Estate News papers in Toronto. Some of those articles would have scared the living daylight out of people, making you a renter all your life. So what he has remembered an old song he likes to sing or is the sky falling for real this time. Or maybe i will be the one taking the credit for calling the peak. Ther is something called a business cycle Mr. Turner.


Mark W
said
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The real factor here is wages and Canada cannot support wages that where established when the dollar was worth $0.70 and there wasn’t a ton of other countries willing to provided the service. Lets face it the big three are now the bottom three and manufacturing is disappearing in North America in general. It really doesn’t matter what we think houses are worth when all the high paying manufacturing jobs are gone and to remain competitive on a global market we end up having to except $15.00 an hour as higher end pay for the average Joe. People making that kind of money can't afford to buy houses valued in this market, if there is no one to buy prices will come down a simple case of supply and demand. My belief there is a major correction to come across the board and I don't think it is just in Canada and the US welcome to the global market place.


Max
said
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Somewhere I read that Real Estate prices are a 'thermometer' of our economy. That was and is certainly true for Alberta and especially Calgary. It's just a simple 'Supply and Demand' effect. The real estate market always seem to adjust itself over the years, one should look at the long picture. As far as the 40 year mortgage is concerned, I find it laughable that Turner suggests NOT to consider a 40 year mortgage. Doesn’t he know that a 40 year mortgage can be shortened after every term to a 25 or 10 year or whatever amortization, it’s seems to be a great tool of getting into home-ownership.
The difference between a Subprime and a 40 year mortgage??? YOU don’t know???
I'm not certain, but mortgages in Canada seem to be different then the US versions.
Yes, we can get 100% financing, but the borrower must be qualified with a solid credit history and since this is a 'High Ratio' mortgage it MUST be insured by CHMC to protect the lender. Unlike the U.S. where bizarre mortgages were created by various financial institutions to allow borrowers with no credit at all to purchase homes with no down payment at all. At the peak of the housing mania in the U.S., subprime lenders were offering homeowners "dubious" instruments such as NINJA (No verification of INcome, Job status, or Assets) loans. Also, Americans can deduct the interest of their mortgage payments from their taxes, which encouraged some to take out higher then normal mortgages. These scenarios simply don’t exist here in Canada. Of course ‘nay-sayers’ will keep renting and wait to buy into real estate once the market turns around again and prices go further up, the clever ones will take the opportunity now and buy when the market is down….!!



Dennis
said
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A significant difference between Canada and the US is that in the latter interest costs on a mortgage are a tax deduction. This may be seen as a distorting encouragement to borrow too much, one which doesn't exist in Canada.


;-)
said
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British Columbia doesn't need lower interest rates like the rest of North American, it needs higher interest rates to give everyone a reality check. There is too much credit in the system and people are living beyond their means.

Instead of fuel surcharges, I think British Columbia needs to consider a gradual "mortgage interest surcharge" to control the amount of money injected into real estate. If we go back to the interest rates of the 80's, this will greatly lower prices and any money from the surcharges can be applied to provincial debt.


Jeanne
said
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To Neil
Jeanne "...... Toronto real estate is sound, and will NOT be going down in price at ALL - so don't worry if you own a property."


I wouldn't bet the farm on that!!

Housing prices are lower in Toronto because wages are lower compared to BC or Alberta and with losses in manufacturing the net effect may even be worst here.


Neil, Prices may be "lower" in Toronto than in the West, however, we have a very strong and sustainable market here, regardless of losses in manufacturing, which was going to happen anyways, irregardless of housing prices. And, I would bet the "farm" on that!!



Matt
said
0 0

I agree completely with Max and believe MP Turner either doesn't understand the facts or has a completely unrealistic perception of reality for new homeowners in cities like Calgary.

The US Subprime mortgage industry is based on financial institutions lending money to borrowers with poor credit history who otherwise wouldn't be able to qualify for a mortgage. The US subprime mortgages were/are of a variable nature. The borrowers simply could not afford payments as the interest rates increased yearly.

In Canada, you can obtain a 40 year amortization rate mortgage (with a conventional institutional lender) with a fixed rate. As max indicated since it is a high ratio mortgage, lenders will typically not approve borrowers with poor credit.

I live in Calgary, looking at an average sized condo, there are not many for under $245,000.00.

Using Turner's suggestion I'd need $49K to put down as a down payment. I am a single professional, out of university a few years, I have nowhere near $49K saved in the bank. 5% or 10% down at a 35 year amortization rate is the only realistic option if I want to own in this city.


Ted
said
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The Canadian housing market is going to take a big drop by the fall of 2010, or sooner. You may think the USA is the only place for this to happen. However, many Canadians are buying homes with subprime mortgage rates ie: no money down, 40 to 45 year mortgages and paying the Interest only with nothing toward the principal. It will hit hard and many will just walk away from these homes.


Mita iz Coke
said
0 0

Recently demand is lower then supply and that will continue for some time to come.
The second reason for real estate decline is affordability.
Mr. Turner is right.
I think his prediction will become reality in next few moths.



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