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CTV News | T.O. student won't be expelled over Facebook group

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Home : Top Stories : T.O. student won't be expelled over Facebook group

T.O. student won't be expelled over Facebook group

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CTV Toronto: Janice Golding from Ryerson Univ.

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toronto.ctv.ca

Date: Tue. Mar. 18 2008 6:23 PM ET

A first-year computer engineering student at Ryerson University will not be expelled for running a study group on the popular social networking website Facebook.

The Toronto university's faculty appeal hearing ruled Tuesday that 18-year-old Chris Avenir did not commit academic misconduct for helping run the online group.

Avenir had also been charged with 146 counts of academic misconduct for each classmate who used the website.

However, the teen will receive a 0 per cent on the assignments that the students discussed on Facebook, which could total 20 per cent of his final mark in one particular chemistry course.

The appeal committee also ruled a "DN" (disciplinary notice) will appear on the student's transcript and he will have to attend an academic integrity tutorial.

Because he is a first-year student, Avenir can appeal to have the notice on his transcript removed if he graduates without committing any academic misconduct.

Avenir didn't comment after the ruling, but was somewhat dejected with the outcome.

"I think he's still pretty disappointed because he worked hard on those assignments on those assignments, he did all of his assignments, he handed them all in on time," said Kim Neale, the Ryerson Students' Union advocacy co-ordinator.

"He's feeling a little bit disappointed but happy that he gets to stay in school."

Avenir was accused of using the site to help his classmates cheat on tests and assignments. Avenir said the group used the online forum to compare notes and share homework tips and questions.

He argued if what he did was cheating, then so is tutoring and all the mentoring programs the university runs.

Avenir's professor, however, stipulated the online homework questions were to be done independently and felt the actions violated the school's academic policies.

After his appeals hearing last week, Avenir said he was optimistic he would be exonerated. The students' union stood behind the student, calling the charges "outrageous and totally unwarranted."

Some Ryerson students also felt the charges were unfair.

"I'm definitely on the student's side," one young woman said on Tuesday before the ruling. "I don't think the Facebook group is anything different than a group of students getting together in a library to work together in person. It's the exact same thing, just one's online."

"I feel like (the school) is making an example of him," said another student. "Why should he have to take responsibility for all of the students that were involved in it as well?"

With a report from CTV Toronto's Janice Golding

Comments are now closed for this story

A Montrealer
said

School systems are getting out of control with their total and unchecked power to do whatever it is they want. I am so happy that the little guy stood up to goliath and lived to tell the tale. Most of us should stand up and fight for what is right and sadly very few of us do, idly standing by. More people should have the guts to do what Chris did. The educational system always makes an example of those ready to take them on and punishes them to the nth degree. Way to go Chris!


Zero???
said

I think that the Chemisty prof that is giving him a 0 should be investigated.

Does this person think the great minds in our country and for that matter the world do not communicate and brainstorm with each other.

Students are bred now to work in study groups from grade 1 onwards. Marks are not an issue during a study group.

Giving a 0 grade may cause this young man to fail his course. How about the 146 people that he helped, are they all getting 0's as well? They should.

Obviously the prof has a problem with students solving his/her questions. I guess he/she maybe afraid a student is smarter than the teacher.


Janus
said

From Robert Hall (Caledon high school) to Ryerson, Facebook rules.


Zaphod
said

Again, the internet is one of the single most mindbogglingly useful things we have ever invented, and a perfectly reasonable use for it has been quelshed yet again.


Aika
said

This is unfair. If students can discuss homework together in, say, a cafe, why can't they do it on the internet? To me the school sounds like an old hag who cannot accept a slightest change in methods. I support the students, and I wish them luck.


Carleton Student
said

It all comes down do what was actually discussed. If they were discussing the generalities of how to solve problems of the form of the assignment questions that is very different from discussing the assignment question itself.

Further it is a straw man/weak man fallacy to bring out what people do outside of their school studies. The point of any assignment or test is to see if the individual student understands or grasps the concepts that are being tested. That is a totally different situation from what someone does after classes are over.

It really all comes down to the context and if they were discussing the specifics of an assignment then they should be getting 0 or expelled. They circumvented the system that is supposed to be checking that they grasp the concepts that their transcript will eventually say they understood.


saskatchewan student
said

Aika is so right. If studying in a cafe is alright then studying on the internet should be alright too.


Christie
said

I think this whole situation is ridiculous. Universities tell their students over and over that they are adult learners and are responsible for their own actions. And here they are holding one student responsible for the actions of 146 other students. I fail to see how they can reasonably justify doing so. This is nothing more than a university flexing its muscles to keep students in line with its ideas of how teaching should occur.


Student with brains and a choice to make...
said

As a student who has been offered admision to Ryerson and a scholarship, I have now just made up my mind NOT to attend that school. I have other options. I will take my tuition elsewhere along with my scholarships and my brains to another institution which wants me very badly. Ryerson, you have just made a huge mistake. Now those of us with a choice will choose to attend where we are valued and encouraged to learn. Your institutionalized methods are going to be your downfall. Maclean's.... are you listening to this? How does Ryerson rank now? Very very low, in one person's estimation.


Gerry Laurente
said

From the viewpoint of a university student outside of Canada, I would like to say online use for educational purposes has been ruined by Ryerson University, especially the professor of the chemistry class. In comparison, the university I attend, San Francisco State University, provides students with an academic technology website called iLearn, which is best described as an online teaching and learning community. If SFSU allows its students to use online technology for educational purposes, then it should be permissable in all other universities.


Dr. M. Walther
said

I guess had I gone to Ryerson University, my degrees would be invalid. That's because my twin brother and I always took the same classes, due to the fact that we had the same interests. Of course, we studied together. Who doesn't?


Louis
said

I completed an engineering program and I always completed my assignments by myself with no help from anyone.

I make a six figure salary and have so for the past ten years.

I'm at the top of my profession.



Ian NWT
said

Cheating is wrong but unfortunately we live in an age where conscience is forgotten and cheating is rewarded. Study hard and be proud of what you have done through your hard work and not others. Boss's are going to care when they employ you that you are honest and willing to learn.


B.A., M.A., B.Ed.
said

At university tutorials are the place for discussions and sharing ideas. Always have been and always will be. Just because Facebook exists does not mean that Ryerson must accept its use.


Alex
said

For a university that's worked hard at positioning itself as modern and at the technological forefront this is going to be a recruitment nightmare.

I hope they have some good PR people on hand.


Gregg
said

Typical government, viewing the Internet as an enemy to be feared and controlled.

I'm proudly sending my kids to the US for their highschool and post secondary education - Canada just doesn't cut it anymore and is too technologically backwards.


Ontario Teacher
said

As a teacher, I do not expect my students to complete their assignments on their own if it is homework, although it is a choice they can make. We live in a society now where it is known that all people learn differently. By collaborating with others, one can further learn and develop their skills and knowledge in depth. Homework is homework, not “alonework”.

Lance
said

Student with brains - I don't blame you, I would not attend an inflexible, head in the sand institution either. Someone came up with a good idea to form a study group and is now being penalized by a backwards non-forward thingking "educational" institution.


Prairie Student
said

People keep on using the argument 'Other students share answers and homework in study groups at a cafe, why go after this.' Should we handle all dishonesty and crimes this way.

They are going after this one because it is something they could catch and prove. Should they go after all similar activities? Sure. Can they catch all of the others? Probably not.

Should they let this breaking of the rules go, simply because they can't catch the other forms of this? Think to yourself where that would lead if you really believed that. They discussed homework that was to be done individually, and got caught. What are we discussing here?


bFast
said

When I was in college some 25 or so years ago, I was the only student with a computer. I used to rent it out so other students could us it to write papers. You should have seen the furor when the professors discovered that it could do spell-checking. I returned to school about 10 years ago, spell-checkers were expected and accepted.

I think that the real problem is that the professors just can't keep up with the times. In my morality, if it isn't outside of the stated rules, its fair. If its fair, there should be no punnishment. If the study questions were assigned with a specific "do not cooperate" requirement, then the student was in error. If such a requirement was not stated, he did nothing wrong in my book.


Rob
said

Any student who studied alone at university is either a genius, or an unsuccessful student. Understanding comes with discussion with your peers and tutors. That professor is totally out of line with the charges he filed against that student. Students don't live in an isolation unit; they live an environment that enables and facilitates learning. Study groups are a long-standing part of that, whether they're in a school library, a coffee shop, someone's hope or on an internet site.


Not a Ryerson fan.
said

Ryerson should be ashamed of itself as so should the professor involved. This was nothing more than a draconian persecution. Ryerson's credibility has been damaged by this and I am glad I graduated from a different university.


Liana
said

I was a teacher for 32 years and always encouraged my students to help one another. Sometimes, the way a teacher presents a concept is difficult for some students to grasp. Hearing it from a different perspective frequently causes the "light to go on" for those who are struggling. I think the internet is a wonderful tool to be used by teachers and students alike. Using it to study and help facilitate the learning process should be encouraged. Perhaps it is the assessment devices used to chart learning progress that need to be brought in line with the times. Teachers are meant to guide and facilitate. We are the leaders that encourage growth. Perhaps educational institutions should look for ways they can use formats such as Facebook as a successful tool, instead of sending it's users underground.


Tonia
said

Come on, this is ridiculous! These students were not cheating in any way or form. This was nothing more than a study group. To punish someone for assisting others is ridiculous. It's not like this was a test/ exam. If it was meant to be done individually with no assistance then the assignment should have been done in class with supervision and treated as an exam.


Rob
said

Louis

Im a Mechanical MIT. I graduated 3 years ago and I studied in a group of 5 people. We helped eachother through the assignments (sometimes that meant copying an answer and getting them to explain it to you). Assignments are worth 10% of your grade. But you know what, getting that measily 10% wont get you anywhere because come mid term and final time you have to KNOW the material to pass. Especially since most upper engineering classes have a must pass finals.

And for your information I make a 6 figure salary as well, and I have only been working for 3 years.... and we are talking 6 figures in the maritimes, unlike your 6 figures in ontario or alberta where living expenses are three times as high. Im not bragging, Im just making a point that just because I had help, and helped friends through school doesnt mean Im not top in my field.


NB Mother
said

I agree with the students here. My children are taught to communicate and help each other. The internet is now the way of life.


R U qualified?
said

The professor stated the assignment was to be done "independently." I agree with Carleton student..what was actually discussed generalities or how to solve the problem. I question whether some of those graduate engineering students who "cheated" to get good grades are the ones building the bridges, roads, etc...that we all presume are safe. Would you want a doctor, dentist, brake technician working on you or your car who slipped by because of someone else's work? PLEASE use the internet for discussion not cheating!!


Mark
said

I was under the impression that dinosaurs were extinct. Who would have thought they were running our educational institutions. Changing times mean these places must adapt or be left in the dust. It is one thing to teach new and innovative technology (which translates to $$$ for the institute), but they must also embrace it as well. Are these pillars of higher education so set in there antiquated ways that they can't see the proverbial forest for the trees. Todays and future students will be utilizing every resource at there disposal to give themselves the best chance at success, which is exactly how it should be. If you'd don't understand the concept or media these students are using, don't demonize it for the sake of "that's how it's always been done", embrace, utilize it, incorporate it, work with the students to give them the edge. There ofcourse will be growing pains, but I guarantee your students and faculty will appreciate it and your institutes reputation will be solid. Just in case you're wondering, I'm a 43 yr old father of a 5 yr old daughter. If I can take a look at those trees in the forest and see which way the wind is blowing....well ...you know.


Doreen
said

I don't believe Avenir thought he was "cheating" when creating a study group online. I have to wonder if he would have been charged with 146 counts of academic misconduct if he had initiated a study group in the library. This makes Ryerson University a joke and such a harsh punishment for a student who is trying to help other students and himself being treated like a child goes against the principles of University and preparing students for the "real" world.


my2cents
said

I think everyone is forgetting that Avenir's professor, stipulated that the online homework questions were to be done independently. While I agree that the Facebook study group is a great idea, this was not the time to use it.


McMaster Student
said

I have to agree with the Carleton Student. Context is everything. As a former engineering student, I can testify that the word "discussing" has many different meanings to people. It ranges from talking about general concepts or styles of problems, all the way to distributing Solution Manuals, yes students have access to these to which Teaching Assistants and some Professors are aware. Again, one must look at the specific Facebook posts to determine what disciplinary action, if any, is required.


Harry Pasternak
said

Anyone teachng at Ryerson does not require any "teacher training" or a certificate showing "teacher training"! He or she justs shows up at the class - a magic wand is waved over their heads - and instantly Ryerdson staff know how to "teach"!

"The blind leading the blind".

If people "teaching" (no one teaches anyone anything - people learn) at Ryerson did study learning; they would know that "Peer Interdependent Learning" is the best way to learn! PERIOD. Dr. Johnstons (brothers) at the Univ. Of Minnesota have 600 studies to prove the above.

What is "Peer Interdependent Learning"? Students "teaching" other students - you know Peer To Peer. It's that simple.

It's how people learn/work once they leave "schooling".

Yes I used to "teach" at Ryerson (before I started my own Institute); and I have 2 degrees in education. Less than 1% of those "teaching" at Ryerson have any king of training in how to "teach"! Dummer and Dummer.

The kid in question should be given a Medal!




Teaching is Helping
said

As an elementary teacher, I always encourage my students to seek help from all resources (including their peers) before coming to me. Obviously they learn more if they can figure it out themselves, but if I, or a peer, have to prod them and do a few examples with them so that they understand how to do a problem, does that mean that I, or their peer, are helping them cheat? Obviously not.

Peers teaching peers is a very valuable tool. If I didn't understand something in University, I would seek help from my peers in my class. We would get together, just like in a tutorial, and discuss how to do what it is we are doing. In no way is this cheating.

I don't know the entire story behind all this, but if this was a study group, they had every right to do this. If this was a place to put answers down and others could just copy...then they were completely in the wrong and EVERY ONE of the 146 should be given 0's.


FutJourn
said

I don't think it would be fair for Chris to be given a zero for this. Like others have said, it is the same as a group of people getting together to work on this...what difference would it make if it's online? If Chris is getting a zero, then everyone should. However, I still don't believe it would be justified to give everyone a zero because MANY students work on assignments in groups. Does this mean every university student should fail?


David fm NS
said

If you don't agree with Ryerson's rules. Attend a different school.

If I'm hiring an engineer, I know the Ryerson graduate did his/her own work.


B.E.SC.
said

As a former engineering student, working in groups was the lifeblood of our educational experience. Just like Dr. Walther, I might not have a degree if I were treated like this. We were taught to work together and told to compare notes and ask questions amongst ourselves. We were not taught to share answers, but to share methods and our own personal understanding of why or how we achieve a particular solution. One of the most important things about University or College is learning to work with people and understanding the best methods to gain knowledge efficiently. I have a feeling this is nothing more than a bored prof who is upset because his/her traditional teaching approach was circumvented by the entire class. As a professor, how would you feel if the bulk of your class chose to learn from one of your students instead of you? If I were a prof in this situation, I'd be looking for a new profession.


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