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Afghanistan vote, budget present election triggers

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CTV News: Robert Fife on the role the budget plays
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Question period: Liberal Leader Stephane Dion on the Afghan mission, part one
Question period: MPs stand and direct questions to the government, part two
Question period: MPs stand and direct questions to the government, part three
CTV Newsnet: Dion speaks from Parliament Hill
Mike Duffy Live: Liberal Foreign Affairs Critic Bob Rae

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CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Wed. Feb. 6 2008 10:53 PM ET

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion says he will propose amendments to the motion the Conservatives will put forward on the future of Canada's role in Afghanistan.

"You need to be prepared to fight but the combat role is when you are proactively seeking the engagement with the enemy. It's something I have said that we will interrupt in February 2009,'' Dion said Wednesday.

The news comes one day after Prime Minister Stephen Harper warned Dion that the Conservative government was prepared to present a motion extending the combat mission in Afghanistan.

Dion wouldn't speculate over the possibility of an election being triggered over the issue, but said he isn't afraid of going to the polls if it comes to it.

However, CTV News has confirmed that the government will introduce its federal budget on February 26. A vote would follow in early March, creating another chance for an early election.

Harper said he would table the Afghanistan motion on Thursday, and a vote on that motion would also come in March, according to reports.

The move seems designed to ensure one of two outcomes -- either that Canada will extend its mission, or that an election will be triggered because it could be a confidence motion.

Dion's position has been that Canada's combat role should end in February 2009, as scheduled, with Canada remaining in the country but in a non-combat role.

"This was never a forever and ever and ever and ever mission on the part of the people of Canada in one particular place, doing one particular thing," Liberal foreign affairs critic Bob Rae told CTV Newsnet's Mike Duffy Live.

Rae said that Canada should shift its mission to training, reconstruction, development, and anti-corruption.

But there are reports that not every Liberal agrees with the position that Canada should end its combat role in Afghanistan.

"Right now the Liberal caucus is in a very serious division," said CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife.

"Sources in there have told me, for example, that Liberal Roy Cullen from Toronto has told Dion his position is wrong and untenable, and that he will make up his own mind on how he votes and that he is leaning towards the Conservatives in terms of the Afghan mission."

There is also word that three other Liberal MPs have expressed disagreement with Dion's position, Fife told CTV Newsnet. Harper alluded to the division within the Liberal Party during question period.

Ignatieff rose in the Commons to vehemently take issue with Harper's suggestion that the Liberals want to pull out of Afghanistan.

"As usual the prime minister gets it wrong," shouted Ignatieff.

"The party over there wants to pull out of Afghanistan. Not this party!"

Harper replied, he has little doubt that that is Ignatieff's position, and he added it should also be Canada's position.

The NDP and Bloc Quebecois have said they will not vote for an extension of Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

Dion said Harper told him on Tuesday that he intends to present a motion that will extend Canada position as a combat force.

"I suggested to him if he was willing to contemplate a non-combat role, that could be very positive for Afghanistan. And he said he wants to continue the combat role, so on that we have a big difference," Dion told reporters.

While Dion said he's not budging in his position that Canada's combat role must end, he wouldn't entirely rule out supporting a Conservative motion.

"So, yes, we will propose amendments, we will do our best to convince our colleagues in the House to come to our position," he said.

Dion also said Harper assured him there would be lengthy debate and discussion on the issue before any decisions are made.

Harper met Dion for 25 minutes on Tuesday in his Centre Block office to discuss the Manley panel recommendations on Afghanistan. Harper has said that Canada will remain in Afghanistan only if NATO offers 1,000 additional troops and more equipment for the mission.

Comments are now closed for this story

RAV
said

Good! Let's clear the air on this issue.


PJR
said

How about we bring the troops home and send the politicians to Afghanistan?


Al
said

Good move on Harper's part. Whoever wins the next election, and it doesn't matter who, hopefully they can allow the military to do their job in Afghanistan, or take them out altogether. They can't do a proper job under the present circumstances or constant criticism from armchair politicians and special interest groups.


Den
said

Good. If the Conservatives want to fight an election on Afghanistan, let them. Maybe we can get rid of Harper at the same time as the US gets rid of Bush, and we can actually move forward on more progressive ideas than constant warfare and military muscle-flexing.

Bring back peackeeping, bring in Kyoto, and take out the garbage.


Leaders don't cut and run...
said

The Prime Minister made it clear in his Christmas message that he doesn't like the difficulty the Afghan mission poses to the government and Canadians. Now, with the Manley report tabled he is ready to chart a course for the Afghan mission. Hopefully we can get on with running the country and put and end to the endless postulating by opposition members who don't offer solutions just never ending criticism.


Paul
said

Seems like Harper wants to have his cake and eat it too.

If the vote goes through in the Commons and if he doesn't get the extra 1000 troops and machinery he has what he wants is to remain in combat.

Enough with the hard work Canadians have done over there in combat. Time to reconstruct the country and leave the combat to someone else.


T-Roy
said

And everyone thought that the Neo-Tories were not going to get partisan on such an important issue and that they would actually work with opposition to work out an agreement on the future of this mission. Go ahead Harper, make it a confidence motion especially with the lies and secrecy you have surrounded this mission with since taking over the reins. A majority don't even support the mission anymore. Please Harper, rid us of yourself.

Maybe I'll vote conservative again once you are shown the "not a leader" you actually are and replaced by someone who knows what consensus and cooperation mean and how to build it.


Don
said

This is the right thing to do given what is being asked of our soldiers. The air needs to be cleared. Of the three option Dion's is the worst. Leave the there and tie their hands.


johnny-O
said

Again, I am getting really tired about everytime something doesn't go Mr. Harper's way in this minority government, he attaches a vote of confidence to it. The people of Canada elected our politicians to do what they think what is best for our country and Mr. Harper needs to understand that 2/3 of Canadiands want no further combat roles in this war. Yes stay and help with development and training, but little or no combat.

freedom lover
said

Unless there's going to be half a million troops going into Afghanistan, there's not much point in sending any troops.

The only reason Canada and other NATO countries sent troops is because the US lied about the reason for invading Afghanistan and and lied about US intentions, and because politicians have to yield to US arm-twisting or suffer reprisals.


Michele
said

How about a referendum on Afghanistan, Harper. That would be truly democratic.


Devon K.
said

Regardless of what anyone thinks about Harper personally he's really putting his money where his mouth is. He believes in this mission and is putting his entire government on the line. That takes guts. Now will Dion stand up for what he believes in?

I think that will show Canadians once again where the leadership in Ottawa lies.


Bob
said

This is good only if Harper is beaten and the troops are brought home. If Harper gets his way our death toll will climb quickly. Hopefully Dion has the guts to bring on an election to oust Harper.


D.R.-Calgary
said

This is a good thing. I hope that the people give this government a majority. Issues in this country, no matter what they are, are bogging it down and making us a country that has no definite direction. I have family and friends in the military and all they want is for the government, no matter the stripe, to let them do their jobs. They are there and need support from all parties. Dion and Layton make decissions are pure political gain. No actual rational thought. Harper, knowing it isn't a popular issue, is willing to got o the polls over it. Not for political gain, but because he believes in the mission and the good we are doing there. Harper is a leader, ...Dion is nothing more than a politician without clear policies and rides the polls. In this debate, Harper will put Dionout of his misery.


Steve
said

Funny how some people on this discussion forum are accusing this of becoming a "partisan" issue, and the Tories are no longer working with other parties. What does that suggest about the alternative? Back-room deals and negotiations, in which parties agree not to show up for a vote to save face, or where yet another expensive "commission" established, is somehow better? Ultimately, we elect our leaders to lead. The confidence motion will set straight where people really stand on this issue.


DW
said

It is not the combat that is the major problem in Afghanistan. It is the IED "improvised explosive device" and the suicide bombers that are the real problem. So reconstruct all you want but it will not stop the bombings or the people from being killed.
So every one should take a real look at what is going on over there and stop harping on the combat role



GM
said

The Manley report recommends Canada stays in Afghanistan on the current mission providing we get the appropriate support or pull the troops out.
Mr. Dion's position equates to telling the troops "we want you to stay, but if you are shot at, you can't shoot back." Or, "Even if you know where the guys are blowing up our vehicles, you can't do anything about it."
Apparently, Mr. Dion has basically thrown the whole Manley report in the garbage.
That must be insulting to his old Liberal colleage. (Mr. Manley)


Stephen
said

al: "Whoever wins the next election, and it doesn't matter who, hopefully they can allow the military to do their job in Afghanistan".

What is that job? the 'job' is whatever the elected representatives of the people decide the job should be. We don't live in a military autocracy.

Ff yo mean that the job is subduing over potentially millions of Islamic insurgents then dream on.


Tim from Calgary
said

Now we'll know which are the ones who want our brave troops to stay and help the poor people of Afghanistan and those who want to cut and run with our tails between our legs. Those people and politicians who vote to end the mission are just playing into the Taliban's hands and will give them the victory they are seeking. You listening, Layton?


Tony
said

I hope an election is triggered so Canadians are forced to decide if this is a cause worth fighting for or do we want to tuck our tails and run.
Is democracy for the Afghans and the right for girls to go to school... a noble cause for our Nation to take part in, or do we want to be a non player on the world stage.

This way we can continue to watch Seinfeld reruns, worry about the polar bears, trees...
and watch the world pass us by.


Martin
said

As a Liberal, since 1963 I would find myself in the position of having to vote Conserative if this was the election's main issue. Mr. Dion had better think long and hard before making this the defining issue of an election as I don't believe that I am the only Liberal voter who feels this way.


C. Benoit
said

The majority of Canadian fatalities and injured are the result of IED's. Why? Because our troops are forced to re-supply their outposts and FOB's by land because the Canadian military doesn't have enough helicopters to do the job.

Why? Because the previous Liberal Government slaughtered the Mulroney project to buy helicopters and now it's been botched and imcomplete.

Get our troops their choppers so they do not have to hitch rides with the Americans all the time and they can re-supply by air and our fatalities will be almost reduced to Nil.


Retired Vet now employed citizen
said

Impressive how Harper can speed this "confidence" motion to Parliament but the $1 Billion dollar relief package for the workers given the turn in the manufacturing sector will fall by the wayside. Harper was embarrassed when it was initially held as blackmail for the budget, then he promises to come before Parliament sooner given the need is now.

Harper's political victory on the backs of our excellent servicemen and our manufacturing sector is avoiding any decision on either topic as the fall of government will stop both decisions in their tracks ... unmade.

Thus proving once again that he does not understand the reason he has a minority is because we didn't all acclaim him in, and that Canadians EXPECT cooperation between ALL parties. When you have 100% support you get to make 100% of the decisions! Can any of these yahoos respect the electorate?



Ross
said

Harper is doing the correct move. The Liberals are divided, the NDP have their head in the sand and who cares what the seperatist think anyway. The Bloc is a joke. Call an election and support the military
Let the voters decide the course of action, it is thier children that are making the ulitmate sacrifices


Neil Shea
said

I personally think it is a "dare" from PMSH that Dion will take him(PMSH) up on. Indeed, that may be a good thing as we will get to have our say. If PMSH wins again(Majority or Minority), well he can then proceed and Dion has to stand aside.

I will bet my next pension cheque PMSH will not be in majority status.


David
said

It's clear that the Liberals don't know where they stand on this issue and Harper is taking advantage. He thinks that there are enough Liberals who support the mission that he will survive a confidence vote.

How can the Liberals think they can govern if they don't all point in the same direction on this fundamental issue? Dion has no control over his caucus.


Rosie
said

To Johnny o and Michele.This is a referendum.If 2/3's of the people don't want us in Afghanistan like you say,then the opposition parties will bring the government down and an election will result.If the motion passes then you had better question the party you support because they represent you.


ex-Canadian
said

Exellent move by Harper. Dion's bluff has been called. Dion will abstain from the vote and half the Fiberals will support the government. Harper has thus reinforced his Leadership credentials in sorry contrast to Dion and cast the future of a Conservative majority. We have not seen leadership like this in Ottawa for half a century.


Patick
said

I hate to break the news to everyone, but Canada has an Army, and the soldiers in that Army train to close with and kill the enemy. It's a fact. The days of Peacekeeping are long gone. Wake up and smell the coffee. Jack Layton is living in a dreamworld, thinking the way he does, as does anyone else that thinks if we hide our heads in the snow and run back to Canada with our tails between our legs, the problem in Afghanistan will solve itself. Let the soldiers fight the battles that they are trained for, and perhaps show some them some support for a change.


Devon K.
said

Wait a minute. What "freedom lover" wrote was patently false.

The United States did not lie about invading Afghanistan. The reason the United Nations authorized the US and NATO to go into Afghanistan was because Al Qaeda, based in Afghanistan, committed the largest terrorist act in history on 9/11. They murdered 2,798 people in cold blood. The Taliban was not a recognized government except by Pakistan and they were providing aid and comfort to Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda also attacked US Embassies in Kenya, attacked the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen, and blew up the Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. Two of those attacks claimed many innocent Kenyan and Saudi lives as well.

"freedom lover" should also remember that 24 Canadians died in the WTC attack on 9/11.

The invasion of Afghanistan was justified, moral, and legal under International Law.


Jim McB
said

This is the right thing to do. Be clear in your actions and your statements. PM Harper knows where the best interest of the nation lies ad he will pursue it.

The left always start their communications by saying "Canadians want" well it is time to see what they want.

Harper will cut Dion to shreds in an election campaign, the guy is weak in leadership qualities and his ideas are radical left. Layton will have to deal with issues like the "the troops in Khandahar boo him every time he comes on TV" as reported in the comments section of this site by a serving soldier. The BLOC will insult the "Vandoos" with their anti war rhetoric and will inflict harm upon themselves.

Harper has tied up the finances of the nation in tax cuts and will be able to skewer other parties on the economy by threatening that they will defecit finance, and all other files are in good shape.

If the Liberals bring it on, they should be prepared for the worst. The PM knows exactly what he is doing!


Steve Daly
said

I like Dion's plan! Ottawa can micro-manage the battle and maybe even send over some CF-18s to bomb suspected truck parks. In a couple of years we can have a heart-wrenching evacuation of Saigon... err... Kabul.


Allan Eizinas
said

If Harper goes this route then it will be an excellent political move and a disaster for Afghanistan and our forces there.

Do not be surprised to see a major suicide led offensive in Afghanistan by the Taliban and insurgents during the election campaign with the largest ever number of Canadian casualties.

The solution to this debacle in Afghanistan is statesmanship, communication and compromise – not political confrontation.

I really wonder if those clowns in Ottawa are really interested in an Afghanistan solution.


ance
said

If anything, I think the Liberals are being more honest about this than the PM and his group.

Their quandry and division over this are more true and reflective of how Canadians are also torn as what is the right thing to do in Afghanistan.

For the Liberals this issue is not a simple "do you or don't you support continuing the mission..." as a party. It is each person, their view and conscience on the matter and their willingness to talk about the different points of view.

Harper doesn't tolerate dissent so every Tory who even dares speak (and there are few) says nothing more than words that parrot Harper.



Greg Crompton
said

Good for Harper
The sooner we can vote on what true leadership is the sooner we can help the people of Afghanistan minus all the political potsturing.


John
said

There is no such thing as peacekeeping, never was, never will be, its a myth that makes Canadians feel better about themselves and better then Americans. everyone thinks war is bad and killing people, but sometimes you have no option. our military is very professional to do their job, with is destroy the enemy. "peacekeeping" just tires their hands and there is no peace to keep. in Afghanistan, there is the people and the Taliban, there is no two conflicting sides. since when did Canada become so full of push overs? what happened to the Canada that used to stand up for what’s right? what would you have done if there was a bully in your playground? do what he says because your scared? you are all pathetic, you should go over there and see for yourselves. just think, if the hells angels was taking over our country, putting in their own laws that nobody liked, would you want another nation to come in and help get rid of them? put yourself in their shoes and stop being to selfish. not ever country is as lucky as ours, its our job to help others out, they want us there, has nothing to do with oil. turning a blind eye to the problem will not make it go away. our forefathers would be ashamed of this country, I sure am.

Michele
said

Rosie, I NEVER said 2/3 of Canadians don't want us in Afghanistan.
If you wish to quote me PLEASE do so accurately!

I do not know how many Canadians want us there.
A referendum would give us a correct figure. A vote in paraliment will
not, given the fact that
each party leader 'whips' its MP's to vote the party line versus the will of their constituents. You must have missed the MP from Thunder Bay being kicked out of the Liberal caucus or MP Bill Casey being kicked out of
the Conservative caucus for not 'towing the party line'. I suppose you are also one of those who think we live in a democracy.

I am also not against the CF in a combat role. I just want that to be in defense of Canada not supporting the US's phoney war on terror or supporting corporate interests. I do however believe that more and more Canadians are realizing that there are other things at play in the war then 'promoting democracy' or that those
'scary' Muslims could probably careless how 'we' live our lives and they are probably more concerned with US interference in their own countries/region.


Robert
said

Why wouldn't he wait to see if we get what was requested by the Manley report before having a vote? Wouldn't that make sense?


JC
said

I am more proud to be a part of a Canada that does not sit down and do nothing and call it 'peacekeeping' in a time where we have committed to a job that needs doing in Afghanistan. This is not about the 'peacekeeping' reputation of yester year, this is about doing what is right, and standing up for people who do not have the great fortune to live in a democracy like ours. How boldly some speak on behalf of those who are actually making the sacrifices. Shame on you Dion, you cannot hug a nation better.


Daniel, Windsor
said

When was the last time we did a "Peacekeeping" mission that did not allow combat? Wasn't that Bosnia? Who was in charge then?


RRR, Lethbridge
said

Why is Dion so unwilling to accept the Manley Report? The people that put this report together are far more knowledgeable on what is best than anybody commenting on this column. I say do what the report says, and get on with governing the country.
Get off your hands Dion and take the right stand.


Lee-Ex Army
said

It's about time, when troops are sent to war it cannot be for political purposes. The troops were sent in Feb 02 because the NATO clause of an attack on one is an attack on all. After that it continued under a UN mandate and finally under a new UN mandate requested by the elected government of Afghanistan. Canadians through their duly elected representative must have a voice. In this case if you believe in the mission you must demand your MP vote to extend the mission and support the Manley report, if you don't you must demand your MP reject this proposal. Either way Canadians must have a voice and if the Liberals decide once again to sit on their hands due to political reasons (fear of an election for any reason until they are stronger) then we have reached a very sad point in our history. Canadian troop believe strongly in this mission but without the full support of the people of Canada (that's what the parlimentarians are supposed to represent) then the mission isn't worth it.

We must demand our politicians take a stand based on our positions regardless of political cost to themseleves as parties.


Roger Baggley
said

Dion is right in his position. There are 35 nations in this effort in Afghanistan. We have done our bit. It is now someone else's turn to take the casualties. If the entire mission fails it will be NATO's failure, not Canada's.

Harper is shrewd. He knows the upcoming by-elections will mostly be won by the Liberals and that Rae and Hall-Findlay will enter the House. He wants to avoid giving momentum to the Liberals.

Unfortunately, the Liberals are divided on the Afghanistan mission. If they do not follow the leader on this issue, they will deserve to lose. The public wants out. Is it asking too much to run on a platform most Canadians will support?


Zircon
said

This is in response to Den and the idea to "bring back peacekeeping".

A former military intelligence officer once said to me words to the following; "This idea of 'peacekeeping' so-called, is the biggest liberal scam going. It preaches well, but the fact of the matter is that we keep 'peace' by threat of force. We have either bigger guns or more of them, than those who would cause chaos. It is violence or the potential thereof that keeps peace. And not just having these weapons mind you, but by appropriately _using_ them when justified."

Whatever your feelings on the legitimacy of our presence in Afghanistan, please please please stop the incessant call for peacekeeping as if if were something so far removed from what our men and women are doing over there now or have done in many major conflicts in our past.

This is not war-mongering, but a realization that sometimes it takes good people with guns to make the bad people with guns stop using them. have a nice day.


Lillian
said

To Michele--- You want a referendum on Afghanistan? If some of the postings on here are any indication of the lack of knowledge of what's really going on in the world, that would be a disaster. I have thought for a long time that one should have to pass a test before voting in any election. Some who would vote in such a referendum couldn't even find Afghanistan on a map. Many don't seem to know that there is a difference between the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Referendum? I think not! The parliamentarians are elected to represent us. Even though sometimes I question their judgement, I prefer that they make these decisions rather than the general public. If you don't like what they do , you have you chance in the general election to turf them out.


John
said

If we abandon Afghanistan before the current government is able to defend itself we abandon every woman, female child, every teacher who has taught them to the inevitable taliban death squads.Thousands of the most "progressive" people in Afghanistan will be slaughtered. Is that what Den means by ditching Harper and moving to more progressive ideas? How do you peacekeep with people who behead innocents?


Louise Fribance
said

How can Harper get support from NATO if they know he doesn't have the support from the Liberals at home? Dion says his view hasn't change, but he doesn't rule out supporting the motion? Is the guy dense? Heavens help us if he ever becomes leader, which is an oxymoron when it comes to Dion. He hasn't got a clue on how to lead.


mike
said

I agree with Mr Layton, we should remove the troops now; then sit down and discuss the situation with the Taliban. I'm sure they're much more reasonable than those Tory brutes! Our soldiers don't like to fight to help other people, so we shouldn't make them.


Brian
said

Mr. Dion has the pulse of the nation! We don't want to fight a war where our men could get killed; that's the job of the Americans!
We're peacekeepers, and peacelovers; you just call that election now Mr Harper!


Hilary
said

After reading several comments regarding Canada's participation in the war in Afghanistan, I am surprised at the number of people that believe we should not be there. The reason that we are there is because this is where Al Qaeda is based. Do you people that think we should not be fighting these terrorist beleive that they will not bother us in Canada? I think it is time that you all wake up and support our government and more importantly our troops.


Reid
said

How does Dion think we are going to be able to do rebuilding without a combat force to stop the Taliban from killing the people we are trying to help,and destroying the projects that are being built?We already are rebuilding in the country,but also have combat troops.Does he just want us to send some easy targets to get killed because there is no security?


Don
said

"freedom lover" what lies are you talking about? I think you have your conflicts confused.
Don't worry about Dion, he will do the same thing the Liberals have done while in power and in opposition. NOTHING! It was the Liberals that sent an understrength force in the first place, at least now the troops can perform like they should with the proper manpower. If the troops were still there under Liberal leadership the casualties would surely have doubled.


javajim
said

An election won't resolve this. Another minority government is likely. Minority government has actually been good for Canada, with the Tories accomplishing much, thanks largely to a spineless herd of Liberal cattle that can be readily manipulated. Dion should knuckle under again and let what will happen anyway happen now. Not that it will do his political image much good. But he doesn't have much face to lose.


Tom
said

Let Canadian do the reconstruction and get out of the combat role. But who is doing the combat? France? Germany? US? If there is nobody committed to combat, what are the position of the Canadians? Cut and Run? Or we just sit and get kill? We ask the government to lead. They made the decision to lead and determine to stay in the region having the combat option to protect everything we've reconstruct so far. We are crying about it. The opositions have offer two options: cut and run; stay and just for reconstruction with no combat. In order for the minority government to lead, they have to go to the poll and clear the issue once and for all. Isn't it the beauty of democracy?


Marc
said

To all of you who support the reconstruction of Afghanistan without a combat role, you are delusional. You cannot have one without the other.

While building a road, let's say we get attacked. Were we supposed to call in the Poles or the US while we get our head caved in because Dion doesn't want us to defend ourselves or be proactive in protecting our investments in the country? We ARE doing the right thing over there, slowly and surely.

Harper has it right. Dion is so out to lunch it's ridiculous.


Ed Wesselius, Guelph, ON.
said

I always love the way the Fiberals make untenable statements and then try to save face when they back-peddle. And this is "leadership" under Dion? When will politicians ever learn to do the honourable thing, represent their constituants?


James in the West
said

This worst part of all of this is that the Taliban will be intensifying their attacks over the next several days to try to...motivate Canada to withdraw their troops. While the loss of Canadian lives in this conflict aren't nearly on the scale of WWII, every life lost through our own stupidity is one more than was required. I fear that Dion and Layton have ensured that a few more Canadian troops will be coming home in flag-drapped coffins with this action.


Sean
said

Those Canadians who want to pull out of Afghanistan are defeatists and cowards. I hope this motion passes and we can stay in Afghanistan and get the job done!


Alex
said

Kudos to Devon K. for explaining to everyone why we are in Afghanistan. Right now our losses are being inflicted by IED's much like the U.S. troops face in Iraq. We need to be deploying more drones in the sky to keep an eye on what is happening on the ground in isolated areas where the IED's are being planted and take out the insurgents in the act. As well, it pains me to see our troops going overland to patrol and resupply instead of using helicopters to minimize the dangers. This is a joke! We need helicopters now--our own-- not from our allies like Poland. For those of you who want peacekeeping in this country, it will not happen until things calm down and the Pakistani border is secured. This means a surge of troops is needed and extra emphasis added to training the Afghan army so they can take over. Otherwise, if the Taliban come back to power upon a NATO withdrawal, do you think they would leave the West alone? What about Osama? Wake up everyone, especially Dion and Layton. The Manley report is dead on target.


Enough already
said

I'm a true Tory and even I'm getting tired of Harper's posturing and games.

Stop with taking all these issues to the mat with confidence motions.

Dion's just sat on his hands until now because he's afraid to take a stand, but one of these times he's going to call Harper's bluff and we'll be in an election.

Neither of them have enough support for a majority and we'll be right back into the same craptastic minority situation we're in now where nothing gets done and they govern by threats.






Brian (Sgt - Retired)
said

I only really have 1 comment. If you do a little research, you will find that the CF has had few deaths from Direct Enemy Action (AKA Combat). The bulk of our losses have been from IED's. So what good will it do to no longer take part in combat? Will it stop our men and women being injured or killed? NO...I Repeat NO.
So there is only 1 choice here...Stay in Afghanistan to help the people, or Leave. If we stay, we will be subject to attack. So if we stay to help, we have to remain in a combat role. If we aren't in a combat role, we must leave, or we will lose hundreds of our brothers and sisters. My choice is simple. STAY and HELP, don't run like a whipped dog!!


DougD
said

What exactly is a "non-combat" role vs. a "combat" role?

Police in our cities are armed, will shoot if necessary, will even employ heavily armed SWAT teams if the situation warrants; this is a non-combat role in that they aren't trying to conquor territory or aggressively firing at every perceived bad guy on our streets. This is also what our army is doing in Afghanistan.

M. Dion, we are already in a "non-combat" role so congratulations, you won, let's get on with the business of running the country.


RRO
said

Dion's "position" is a fairytale created to be a good sound bite. Our top soldier has told the country if you end our combat role you can't work on reconstruction because the Taliban will move back in and take shots at the construction work.
You can't train a military if we pull out in a combat role because those troops that need to be trained properly will have to replace Canadian troops.
Canada is already dumping billions into reconstruction efforts as well.
Dion's entire position is ludicrous and his own party agrees other wise they wouldn't be united behind him. If Dion wants an election, lets go for it, then he can lose and the Liberals can pick another leader. My vote would be for John Manley.


Ann
said

I think Mr Harper should stop using bullying tactics by the ever frequent confidence vote and start negotiating, which is what he was elected to do.

For instance while our troops are doing a fine job and should be supported, lets have some support from the other countries who are hiding in their barracks. Let THEM get shot at for a change and let our troops do the rebuilding they should be doing. That would not trivialise the work and combat our troops have done and seen, rather provides for a fairer share of the risk.


Gary
said

Peacekeeping only works when both side lay down their arms. Do we want Canadian Soldiers to rebuild a Country under fire. Combat is required to mantain security while rebuilding is going on. Jack is fooling you with the idea that you can rebuild a Country with a Blue Helmet on and the Taliban will will look for someone else to shoot at.


Rejean
said

As a long time Conservative and retired member of the armed forces I will vote Liberal in the next election and suport the defeat of this pathetic charade of a military mission.


Colleen
said

It seems to me Canadians bought and paid for the Manley Report. If we don't follow its findings now, it is simply wasted money. Harper has said he wants to follow the course recommended in the Manley Report. Seems to me that is the responsible thing to do after spending taxpayers' money for it.


Tim
said

Whatever happened to peacekeeping. As of December, 2006, Canada ranks 58th behind Malawi. Who voted for this?


Robin
said

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Einstein
The Afghan mission as now defined is INSANE because the results are same over and over again: Cdn. soldiers maimed or killed, Afghan civilans die, the Taliban retreat only to slip back across the Pakistani order re-armed and revitalized for another fire fight. The time has come for Canada to change its military blueprint. An amended approach is not cowardly or defeatist just simply common sense. Thanks Albert!


f
said

The Liberals destroyed the Military but had no qualms about making themselves try to look good by sending soldiers to into dangerous places and them told them "please don't shoot if you don't have to". My goodness, we don't want people to think that our soldiers actually use bullets to defend themselves do we??? Oh, and when the Forces did fight, the Liberals didn't want anyone talking about it (Medak Pocket in Croatia). And remember all you US/NATO haters; the United Nations Security Council authorized the International Security Assistance Force to maintain security for the Afghanistan Transitional Authority. Surely the Liberals have some principles they believe in??? Let’s see which way the wind is blowing today.


Tory no more?
said

I've been a tory supporter all my life but I have had enough of this particular flavour of conservatism. It is cold, divisive and undemocratic. Once upon a time not to long ago we had real leaders known as the Prime Minister who sought to govern for all Canadians regardless of your party affiliation. The opposition is part of the government and the PM's duty is to build consensus and co-operation, even moreso in a minority situation because nothing gets done if you have a minority and not enough votes to pass a bill/motion yourself. A true moderate leader would come up with bills/motions that reflect the majority of views in the house. Sadly this current government looks upon this as being weak. I am sick and tired of all the division, name calling, insuinuations of opposition supporting terrorists and the like. Seems so juvenile and immature. This is not the conservatives I remember. Maybe its time I gave up on the party altogether and vote Green. They were right, this party is way too right wing for those who considered themselves Progressive Conservatives.


Stop with all the peacekeeping garbage
said

For all of you who think that we should be doing peacekeeping, open a book and do some research, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PEACEKEEPING! ITS A MYTH THATS ALL. Canada is not the home of the peacekeepers. peacekeeping is something the liberals invented so that we wouldn’t have to spend any money on our military or go to any wars because it doesn’t buy them votes. Read about history and you might learn for yourself that there is no such thing as peacekeeping, or better yet, talk to a member of the military, there are in that business, they do know what they are talking about, unlike most of the Canadian population. stop living in la la land.


LUV
said

Great,another UN type mission. Non-combat role, what that means as a soldier is get shot at but can't shoot back. If we leave, all those soldiers that have been killed in Afganistan would have been for nothing.


Scott H.
said

"peacekeeping" was a disaster. Remember villages being slaughtered in Bosnia while Canadian soldiers were forced to watch because of silly rules of engagement that didn't allow them to intervene? Thats exactly what would happen in Afghanistan if we tried to do that again.

The United Nations sanctioned the NATO mission in Afghanistan because they believed it was the right thing to do.


Lart from Above
said

In 1940, British and Canadian forces withdrew from France at Dunkirk, so that they could fight another day when circumstances permitted. The politicians then had the courage not to sacrifice the lives of soldiers for nothing. The "cut-and-run" rhetoric being used today is just an attempt to justify letting more soliders die in van.

Unlike Harper et al., Dion is listening to the Canadian people, who feel that Canada has paid a high enough price. Canada is there to help defend America from attack; if the Americans can't prioritize their own defense, it's not Canada's job to fight a pointless war indefinitely.

Today, the security situation has deteriorated to the point where elections can't be held and aid can't be delivered to communities that need it.

A Taliban takeover of parts of southern Afghanistan would be horrible, but maybe this would get the attention of American, European, and Afghan authorities that this is a problem that needs attention, and even if not, it might be more practical to isolate Afghanistan and let it resolve its own problems. If we're losing the war, better to retreat than to leave soldiers in harm's way.


Wayne
said

I almost feel sorry for the Liberals. There is more time and energy being spent discussing their absence of strong leadership when they should be insulting and deriding Harper but even when they do it only benefits Harper. Everyone knows where he is coming from and either hates him or loves him but most people secretly admire him for not sucking up to the media and practisisng what he preaches as well as keeping most of his promises. This drives the opposition to distraction and they can not seem to come to grips with a leader who franky sometimes does not care about public opinion and instead leads by principles and a brilliant strategic sense. Harper is anything but wishy washy or a psuedo-intellectual and can anyone seriously imagine Harper in the back pocket of anyone in the corporate jet set how often do you see him on the golf course. On the other hand you have Dion who let's be honest now folks is just not leadership potential and in point of fact the Lib's calling for an election want one so that they can get the loss over with and put Iggy in charge. I love canadian politics. In the meantime we will be support our mission in Afghanistan and rightly so!


Alyssa
said

Very simple, The Conservatives want to finish the mission if they get more support in the south. The Liberals want a non combat role after 2009, which the military leaders say is not possible without combat troops. Then you have the NDP that say we cannot win so lets pull out.

John Neely, London
said

When Mr. Harper said Parliament would have to approve the extension of any mission in Afghanistan, he did not say it would be a vote of confidence. Enough manipulating! Either say what you mean up front Mr. Harper or bring down the government and take your consequences.


Bal
said

Does anybody remember how Afghanistan got in this situation? It was that war with the Soviets in the 1980's. America supplied them with weapons etc, to defeat the Soviets then left them. Dont forget Americans gave help to Bin Laden who in turn attacked them years later. America went there to find him, then left to fight in Iraq. We Canadians should be not be doing this job, this mess was created by the Americans and their forgien polices. The old saying "Chickens come home to roost." applies here. If our leaders had any willpower they would pull out of Afghanistan in 09 and let some other nation take on the mess. We cant win in Afghnistan. Its a big waste of money and time.


WiseGuy
said

A troop surge worked in Iraq, why shouldn't it work in Afghanistan?
Harper is a leader. You have to be if you want to oppose the majority in the "polls". "Consensus" is the absence of leadership.


John
said

What a waste of time, effort and money. Not to mention the lives of our brave and courageous soldiers. The modern day crusades I guess. What are we trying to do find a role for NATO now that the USSR is no more? Many will say to fight terrorism; however the US was there in large numbers and felt it more important to bog-off to IRAQ.... Afganistan just wasn't that important. Are we trying to prop up a nation that will only turn around and bite us at the first opportunity? How long is enough to be there? How many tax dollars ( the US is already suffering from the cost of IRAQ)? How many dead soldiers? How many sons, daughters, fathers, mothers must die and suffer? Is this Opiun trade dependent country worth it? I don't know. I like the Harper Govt, but I hate the war. Please note I love our soldiers and respect them greatly. I want a referendum.... Let everyone have the change to vote on this issue. The way it stand now I must vote out the Harper govt because of my strong views on the war, not because of the govt. PS I do respect all your views, but I stand by mine.


Kevin
said

One thing these comments do prove is that whether you support or oppose the Afghan mission Canadians don't seem to have a clue what is really happening over there. I think the soldiers are doing a fantastic job that we can all be proud of. But the real question is "Are Canadians educated enough to decide these kinds of issues" Canadians might be better off leaving complicated world affairs to other nations who appear to be better educated.


David
said

I don’t understand the notion of “bring back peace keeping”. People like to view our soldiers as the blue helmet hero charging off to protect the innocent from danger. What do Canadians think is happening in Afghanistan? An oppressive force is attempting to destabilise a democratic nation. Under the Taliban women are repressed and education is robbed from children. So many Canadians have an elitist attitude towards seeing our troops in combat. They turn their noise up at anyone for the mission and regard them as Bush like war mongers. To withdraw Canadian troops would be morally wrong. The Afghanistan mission is the new peace keeping. What could be more Canadian than defending the innocent?


Benjamin - Toronto
said

Helping stabalize and police a country the size of Afghanistan will require a long 20+ year commitment and hundreds of thousands of soldiers (ie; security forces). All the standing armies of NATO cannot fufill the rotation schedule & troop numbers required... proven by military research & history - see Brit ex-colony and US post-WWII experiences. Why are we there?!


Eric
said

This isn't a matter of 'putting his money where his mouth is' nor is it 'political posturing'. If the Liberals respresent the thoughts of the majority of Canadians, then he'll defeat the motion, and, in theory be elected into office himself.

That's what a Democracy is. We elect these people to represent us, and Harper is giving the option to have the 'majority' be heard. After 13 years of Liberal rule though, I'm not surprised that people would be unfamiliar with a leader who's ready to have himself held accountable for his actions... rather than just running the country like an un-removable dictator for 4 years.

In a Democracy the majority rules, if the majority of representitives decide against this motion, then democracy has been served. If they don't, Democracy has -still- been served.

Btw. "Playing Politics"? ... they're politicians, what would you rather they play? Golf?


Josh in Ontario
said

What a stupid move for Mr. Harper to make! Of course, an election would end up being called over this and since most Canadians are also opposed to the war, Harper should lose the next election. However, it would also be wrong to just support Mr. Dion's Liberals, given his weak leadership capabilities and the poor Liberal track record as of late. Ah, should be ripe conditions for an NDP government, if only Canadians would WAKE UP!


Rob Z
said

Note to Stephane D.....the best defense is a good offense...with an attitude like yours, in WW II I could have wound up as smoke up some Nazi chimney....Thankfully the Allied leaders of the day were prepared to stand up to Tyranny...so we should again....We need to fight Islamist Fundy terrorists on their home turf before we have to fight them here at home....


HammyJ
said

Al,
You have it backwards - the military's job is to do follow the instructions of Paliament (since it is a minority government) and not the other way around. Following Parliament's instructions IS THEIR JOB. There is no other role for them in our democracy.

Hillier's comments implied that the Liberal position was untenable - only if you put the spin on it that Hillier did ! Why does Hiller (and lots of Conservative supporters) think that Canada has to stay in Kandahar province ? Why can we not simply (and it is high time to) rotate-out with another NATO conntry taking our place in that combart role.

By the way, if you apply the 10 times factor to the number of our troops in contry, comparing our opoulation with the population in the USA Canada has the equivalent of 20,000 troops in Kandahar and we have been there for about (6) years. It is time for NATO to replace Canada in that role by another NATA country.
Mr. Dion is absolutely right in the Liberal position in this matter:- that we should. Help YES, but end our war / combat mission. We have done our part. This would be a good thing.


Ray Jacques
said

I have said this in earlier posts on this topic: What would people say if 9/11 had not happened in New York.. maybe it happens in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver..what would the concerned citizens of Canada think of the Army playing a role, combat or otherwise in Afghanistan???
As a serving soldier, I carried a loaded weapon in both Bosnia and Afghanistan and could have been killed in either place.
Whether you support Tory or Grits, you might want to talk to a soldier as to what we do in Afghanistan and how we are helping you feel secure in your Canadian home!!It appears the politicians will not tell you.



proud military spouse
said

To my husband who is presently serving in Afghanistan now. Myself and our three children are extremely proud of you. We realize you and the rest of our military are doing an excellent job there. It is a shame the Canadian people don't realize what you are doing there..hell neither do Dion and Layton. Your hard work is not going un-noticed, I am sure the Afghan people are grateful. I know you would like people to just shut up and let you do what you were trained to do. Maybe one day they will.I personally wish they would just take the time to research the reason why you are there, not for the US but to stop the Taliban. I could go on and on, but sometimes I wonder what is the point. But to me, you are a hero, you are doing something important for our country and one day maybe Dion and Layton will see that. Continue do your job 100%, like I know you will. We love you and support you all the way!!


f
said

We have to go by what people on the ground are telling us and they are saying we are succeeding. I know, the naysayers will tell us about the drug trade, IEDs, suicide bombers, and in general, focus on every negative but neglect to mention the successes. We are talking about a life and death struggle! Did you think it was going to be easy!
You can bring up revisionist Chomsky theories about US foreign policy and pat yourself on the back if the troops are brought home but who is going to suffer? Our troops will be out of harms way but don't we have any obligation to help people that live outside this country? Innocent people have been killed but ask yourself this; if you lived in that country would you want someone to come in and help you and your family, or take your chances with the Taliban and all they represent. Well, if the troops are ordered home, the left can congratulate themselves and then have a drink and watch the news, read the paper, have a dinner party and discuss politics, or go to a movie of their choice. Why would we want that for anyone else?

Barb
said

I got one question to ask all of you who are so down on Harper. Didn't Mr.Harper say when he was in Afghanistan for the very first time after election he would put his government on the line for the troops and there would be no cut and run? well once again he proves he is honest RIGHT


LH
said

Canada ranked 58th in Peacekeeping ... sorry, bad stats. We are 58th as far as UN-employed personnel go, but that does not reflect the 2,500+ Canadian servicemen employed on NATO-led Peace Support Operations. Add them in and we vault into 7th, overall.


Combat for what, exactly?
said

You know why the war on terror should continue? In Afghanistan, Iraq, and hopefully in Iran soon? Here's why.

Because one day down the road, the coalition of armies fighting the terrorists will shoot and kill the last terrorist, or we'll pick up that last terrorist out there running free up and lock them away forever.

And when that day comes, the newspaper headlines worldwide will scream "It's Over!" just like at the end of WW2. Yes, just like WW2, which is invoked so often to justify why Canada is in Afghanistan.

The ticker tape parade when that last terrorist is killed or imprisoned will be so huge, it'll make all this effort worth it. All the politicians who so badly wanted to pursue this controversial war on terror will be vindicated as they are able to ride proudly in parades through packed city streets the world over, waving to adoring crowds as millions celebrate their victory.

That's gonna happen soon, right? Like in the next few years? I can't wait.

Danny
said

Am I the only one that thinks the decision of whether to finish the job in Afghanistan should be up to the men and women in uniform who are actually making the sacrifices? If enough troops are volenteering to serve another tour in Afghanistan, I am willing to trust their judgement that the mission is worth the cost, and float the bill for whatever they need to do their jobs.

Bill
said

Harper is trying to bait the opposition into a spring election.
The Harper gov. have been polling lately. They must think they can win a spring election majority and are looking for any issue to trigger this election-the War, the crime bill,anything will do.)
This is not good governing this is a ploy and this is political strategy aimed at getting them the majority they so desperately crave... nothing more.

JJ
said

Let the people decide who is the best to fight crime, to manage the economy and to show Canada is a committed member of UN and NATO.


Tom
said

I think the mission in Afghanistan is well-intended, but I don't agree with it. Right now a young man in that country is under death sentence for distributing an article criticizing his faith. That's the kind of country Canadian soldiers are dying for. I feel sorry for the ordinary citizens there, but I really don't think western nations can change such a culture, even by peaceful means, never mind with the gun. I wouldn't vote for the Liberals or NDP on this issue in an election, but I would stay home. Twenty years down the road, Afghan citizens will be saying: "Canada? Never heard of it." Some of them are probably saying that right now.


AJ
said

So it seems to me since I'm over in Afghanistan right now and can see the good that is happening in this country that most of you have no clue what is actually going on. Any of you that believe Canadian Soldiers can rebuild this country without seeing combat and getting our hands dirty need to take a step into reality. If your so wise as to how this is done please put on the uniform grab a rifle and comon over.

But what do I know I am just a soldier here doing the work, and trying to help this country. So go ahead and keep whining to bring the troops home, you only give the taliban more power when they see some of you don't support us.

By the way if we do get pulled out, then one of you please call the families of my fallen comrades and explain to them why their sons/daughters have died in vain!



Asking Questions and Expecting Answers
said

When Britain couldn't do it, and Russia couldn't do it, NATO can't do it, what makes you think the US or Canada can do it?

If Stockwell Day had his say in his own government, he'd stand up and tell Canadians that all killing is futile; that all killing in the name of whatever God is an exercise in futility.
Why?
Because the good people will be Raptured, that's why.
If Harper's government can come up with a cohesive argument about why Canadians should sacrifice their children in an effort that the Ministers do not believe will succeed because of a last-minute rapture, why are they sacrificing children who may be brought to the Rapture without enduring the blood, sweat and tears of war that Harper and his followers concede as futile?
Why send Canadians to die for something the Harper Conservatives don't believe in anyway?



Dick Sharpe
said

Do people not realize that you can't always just wear a Blue Beret and hand out lolipops. Afghanistan is a war zone and Canada ceasing combat operations will not make the situation any better. Perhaps Layton and Dion should stop using the mission and the Brave Soldiers who are involved over there to further their own political agendas


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