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Khadr shot by U.S. forces before capture: witness

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CTV Newsnet: Audrey Macklin, U of T law professor
Canada AM: Dennis Edney, Khadr's Canadian lawyer

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CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Mon. Feb. 4 2008 9:39 PM ET

TORONTO — U.S. forces shot Omar Khadr twice in the back before the young Canadian terror suspect allegedly killed one of their commandos during a 2002 firefight in Afghanistan, according to one witness.

The unidentified U.S. fighter said Khadr was hit by shrapnel and was facing away from the firefight when he was shot inside an al Qaeda compound.

The statement came on a day Khadr's lawyers were pushing to have all the charges against him dropped.

The legal representatives of the Canadian being held in Cuba's Guantanamo Bay appeared at the military tribunal on Monday.

They argued for the dismissal of the charges based on the following criteria:

  • The fact that the tribunal itself was not established until after the alleged crimes occurred.
  • Their belief that the crimes occurred during a legitimate military exchange.

Khadr, now 21, was 15 when he was captured by U.S. forces in July 2002 while fighting against the Americans in Afghanistan. He stands accused of lobbing a grenade that killed a U.S. Special Forces commando.

The tribunal heard arguments Monday on whether it has the right to try Khadr for his alleged crimes. He is accused of murder, conspiracy and providing material support to terrorism, and could face up to life in prison if convicted.

The eyewitness also said a second enemy fighter was alive inside the compound when he entered. Khadr's defence lawyers said this casts doubt on the U.S. government's conclusion that Khadr threw the grenade.

"It does raise questions as to basic facts of the government's case," said Khadr's lead defence lawyer, U.S. Navy Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler.

The judge, army Col. Peter Brownback, did not immediately issue a ruling.

Khadr was not shackled during his appearance Monday. He wore a white prison jumpsuit and had a short trimmed beard, and kept his eyes on the floor during much of the appearance, The Associated Press reports.

The tribunal heard from Rebecca Snyder, one of Khadr's defence lawyers, that Khadr can't be tried for murder as a war crime because the offence occurred during a battle and should be classified under traditional laws of war.

"Soldiers are not protected targets," she argued. "That is part of what war is about, killing soldiers."

Earlier Monday, Khadr's Canadian lawyer Dennis Edney told CTV's Canada AM the defence had a number of concerns.

"We have a number of motions before the judge," lawyer Edney said.

"One, of course, is that Omar Khadr be designated a child soldier. The other is we're challenging the definition of terrorism, particularly Omar Khadr being detained as a terrorist on a tobacco field. Essentially, we're challenging all the various indictments against Mr. Khadr."

The lead prosecutor in the tribunal, Marine Corps Maj. Jeffrey Groharing, said Khadr wasn't following accepted ruled of legitimate warfare and therefore should be tried by the special court.

He pointed out that Khadr conducted surveillance in civilian clothing, and lived with women and children at a compound where the fighting took place.

"The accused and the terrorists he was working with did not belong to a legitimate army, they belonged to al Qaeda,'' Groharing said.

Col. Peter Brownback, who is presiding over the hearing, did not immediately issue a ruling.

Edney said Monday's court proceedings in Cuba are an "extremely meaningful" part of the trial process, but he questioned whether the outcome would be favourable towards his client.

He said the Canadian government has let his client down, and must share in taking responsibility for his current plight.

"The Canadian government stands out amongst most other civilized countries throughout the world. It has not only failed to criticize Guantanamo Bay as a blight on the rule of law, it has not said a single word on behalf of Omar Khadr," Edney said.

"And that stands in contrast to the language it uses when criticizing the Chinese government's human rights record. So Canada will not say a single word of criticism about Omar Khadr to the Americans, and by not doing so, one then would suggest Canada is implicated with the Americans on their view of the law and the on war on terrorism."

Amir Attaran, a law professor at the University of Ottawa, called the tribunal a "kangaroo court"

"He was a child soldier and there has not been in the Western world a prosecution against a child soldier since the 18th century. So this is something really quite perverse that the United States court is doing, and that's the point of his lawyers, it should be thrown out of the court, done with," Attaran told Canada AM.

Edney said his first challenge was just to meet with his client. He spent much of yesterday waiting to meet with him, but was eventually denied the opportunity "because of security and various other strange reasons."

He said it was difficult to discuss their strategy because security restrictions prohibit Khadr from seeing all the evidence against him.

Kuebler told The Associated Press that the trial, if it proceeds, could set a dangerous precedent.

"The best case scenario is the judge does the right thing and dismisses the charges on the grounds that Congress did not intend this system to apply to a minor,'' Kuebler said.

He said the judge would be the first in western history to preside over a trial for alleged war crimes committed by a child.

The U.S. Defence Department maintains that the tribunal system established by the Bush administration in 2006 is the most appropriate venue to prosecute Khadr. He has been described as an "enemy combatant" by the U.S.

Khadr is accused in court documents of travelling through Afghanistan and Pakistan with his father from the time he was 10 years old. His father, an alleged al Qaeda financier, took him with him to meet with militant leaders such as Osama bin Laden, the documents allege.

Please Add Comments( )

MHB
said
0 0

It is a real shame that Mr. Harper and his government do not put any effort in bringing this Canadian young man back from the American torture camp in Guantannamo. When it comes to our so called "allies", our conservative government does not hear, does not see, and definitely does not speak!.


Evan from the GTA
said
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I hope the trial is not a kangaroo court, but I feel Canada owes little to a family that decided to take on the US army and lost.


George Van Dyk
said
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Child soldiers handgranades and guns kill just as effectively as adult soldiers. Quit trying to meddle in American affairs, we would resent it if they meddled in ours. They are a civilized society with civilized courts, they will take all the evidence and facts into consideration. George


Dave
said
0 0

The Khadr men whent to fight in Afghanistan then came back to Canada for medical help. Who cares about Khadr? Canadians are so Naive.


Scott H.
said
0 0

You cannot possibly tell me a 15 year old kid doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. Come on fellow Canadians and pull your heads out of the sand.

Shamaro
said
0 0

Regardless of what you want to call him, this young man forfeited his Canadian Citzenship by taking part in the killing of soldiers in Uniform. This young man did not wear the uniform of any country, but left Canada, dressed as a civilian and carried out crimes that we depict in this country as illegal. I dont' understand how so many of these people will hide behind the protection of Canadian citizenship and our laws so that they can carry out their crimes against humanity.

Sean
said
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I agree with George on this one. The only difference between a child soldier and an adult soldier is age. Both can be just as effective at killing one another if provided with the right tools.

What's next? Are we going to begin excusing adult soldiers for their actions because they started as a child soldier? Will the Leftists in the country claim that their actions are a result of a brainwashed youth and that they shouldn't be punished for "being victimized as a child into this behaviour"?


Truthful Joe
said
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Omar Khadr CANNOT be compared to real child soldiers such as the young girls and boys who are forcibly taken from their homes in places like Sierra Leone and the Congo. Khadr went willingly and the media should STOP using that innocent looking photo and promoting him as a dimpled, innocent, duped Canadian.

Kevin
said
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Does anyone know if Kadhr even renounced and regretted his actions on that day? I tend to believe he has no regret for what he did...child soldier or not.

another arm-chair politician
said
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I think all of you should look up the definition of what a child soldier is.... All persons under the age of 18 regardless of sex and whether or not they volunteered or were forced to take up arms. Its a shame on our administration when they have done squat to demand the return of one of ours, funny how it is a Canadian that is the last Westerner to be held in captivity, but go figure.


Lee Allen
said
0 0

He was 15 and captured on a battlefield... He was a child! The fact that he was Canadian is besides the point.
I feel that the most important thing to remember of all this is that for six long years he has been denied any due process or fair legal repersentation. This is why the world is such a mess. It is policies that governments make to suit their own immediate needs that angers so many!

Nick
said
0 0

Congratulations to those who recognize that these Khadrs voluntarily and with much enthusiasm sought to fight "our" side.

Our responsibility to be fair must be discharged with some sense of preservation of the conditions from which we can enjoy our safety.


Defies logic
said
0 0

Hey, if you are going to run around a terrorist training camp with guns etc what do you expect if you get caught? A trip to Disneyland?

CWS
said
0 0

A so called "child soldier" still kills adult soldiers the same as an adult so what is the difference?


Bill Peters
said
0 0

Perhaps MHB should remember that the liberals were in power when omar was detained. What did they do? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.


LJB
said
0 0

Child soldier. Hmm! Would we be want to an American for murder if instead of capturing him when he through the grenade, he had been shot and killed? From what I have been able to read he was not forced to go back. War is war and it really does not matter who you are or what country you are from and not even your age. It is the side you are fighting for. We hate to see someone go to the other side but unless we can prove it was forced we must let the justice system work.


Lart from Above
said
0 0

Khadr isn't a terrorist, he was just a soldier, no different from Canadians who went to Europe during the World Wars or the Spanish Civil War. If he committed a crime, he's entitled to the same rights any 15-year-old Canadian should have. The Canadian government has no standing to pick and choose which parts of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms apply to which Canadians.

The Americans have no business holding anybody in a facility outside the rule of law. Every accused under the control of American authorities should be entitled to the protections of American law. Canada has a responsibility to object to its citizen being held at the Guantanamo prison, as every other Western democracy has already done.


Rona from Canmore
said
0 0

Ahmed Said Khadr, was a "trusted associate" of bin Laden. He and his family visited bin Laden at the compound in Pakistan in 1997 and 1998 and lived there for about a month. Khadr asked his son to help him procure munitions for the attacks of 2001. Abdullah Khadr bought rocket-propelled grenades, rockets and mortar rounds between May and October of 2003, and distributed those munitions to others for use by al Qaeda and other foreign fighters against the United States. Ahmed Said Khadr was killed by Pakistani forces in October 2003, but his son continued his efforts to procure munitions and in October 2004 negotiated to buy missiles from a Pakistani conspirator, which he intended to sell to another conspirator for attacks against the United States. What if these plans had been against OUR COUNTRY???







fixhist, Toronto
said
0 0

Perhaps we are barking on wrong tree?
It is responsibility of ISAF/NATO to keep record of detainees and be responsible for fair justice under International charters and justice.
Since, Canada has assumed charge of command,
Maj.-Gen. Marc Lessard can be asked to get charge of Mr.Khadr issue and assure fair justice under IHRC charter clause 66(needs confirmation).
It is against laws on combat to remove detainees from country attacked (except for security concerns).

Jennifer
said
0 0

I think that people are forgetting that children learn from their parents and can be very vulnerable and impressionable. This boy was taken there by his father and raised in this environment, he probably knows nothing else. We don't charge and sentence minors for their crimes here in Canada in the same manner as we do adults because they are children and are not completely responsible for their actions. So why is this child any different?


David_K
said
0 0

Canadians demand that this young man be brought home and have a trial here! How dare the USA keep him locked up.


Morgan
said
0 0

Does anyone consider Khadr's point of view? Yes at 15 I am sure that you can determine the difference between right and wrong, but Khadr comes from a family (especially if is father financed Al Qaeda) that has influenced his ideals. I know at 15 many of my opinions were based on what my parents thought and what I heard them talk about. As well consider that perhaps our definition of right and wrong is much different then Khadr's. Yes Khadr is very much guilty in our eyes, and I am not saying that he should not be punished for his crimes. I am merely saying that it is important for us to consider the other side of the argument and then make judgements.


David Dunlop
said
0 0

I couldn't be happier if our government just walked away from this whole affair and the next time some bleeding heart lawyer calls up and asks for any kind of assistance the voice at the other end just says "Who?" At 15 he is a young man and able to know the difference between right and wrong.

Max
said
0 0

If he had shot somebody in the streets here, he would be tried as an adult.

Enough...


Mamadou Diop
said
0 0

Well i wonder if his name was John O'Neil or Marc Savard! I bet you the reaction woulb be different.This child has been a victim, first to Mr. Khadr senior and second to a desillusionned government( US & CAN). It's sad that a country that have pioneered human rights issues can not help one of his "own".


DJT
said
0 0

David K. He was fighting AMERICANS ! And they have no rights to capture him. ???


Richard
said
0 0

I hope Ottawa won't waste its time and our money helping yet another Canadian-of-convenience. Let the American justice system do its job.


Marie
said
0 0

I think some of you here today forget what it was like when you were this man's age. Can you honestly say you didn't do stuff that you are proud of today? That boy was brain washed from the time he was very young & in my view, your views show that you are just as bad.


Chris from Ottawa
said
0 0

It doesn't matter what his father or his brothers did. It doesn't matter if he acted voluntarily or not. It doesn't matter if he acted against Canada and its allies or for them. On the question of whether or not Omar Khadr was a child solider at the time of his capture, then the answer appears to be 'yes'.

If we, as a society, are not satisfied with a law, then it is up to our governments to change that law. But if we make any claims of being a civilized country, then we must govern ourselves by the rule of our own laws as they exist. As should the Americans or any other civilized nation, lest there be anarchy (which is what the terrorists want).


David_K
said
0 0

DJT the Americans have no right to keep him where they have him. The UN has even said that it's against human rights. Bring him home NOW!


greg
said
0 0

A point that is often missed is that many other Guantanimo detainees have been released to their home countries despite actively participating in combat. Khadr is higher profile because of who his father is, not simply for his own actions.

Gerry B
said
0 0

Please, people. Put your emotions aside and think.

Chris from Ottawa is bang on here. He was a child and a soldier. That, by definition, is a child soldier. I don't see how it can be argued. If you don't like the definition, then make it known at election time. Let's stop the pleas to emotion and the sensationalism.


K. Blake
said
0 0

Another case of the reputation of Canada being a tolerant, understanding society that stands for the human rights of others being tarnished once again by the likes of Harper.


Dave in Surrey
said
0 0

He was clearly manipulated by his parents through out his life... This does not excuse his actions, but it should be considered... He will never be free either way, child soldier who spent 6 + years in American illegal custody, will only be a huge advertising tool for Bin Laden and Americans will realize that...


Flanagan
said
0 0

There's a reason we don't let 15 year old children drink, vote or drive. They're CHILDREN.

As much as I despise the Khadr family, torturing and punishing a child for the sins of the parents is not the way for a civilized country to behave.


BW
said
0 0

To Mamadou Diop

The reason that the majority of Canadians have no sympathy for this child and his family has nothing to do with their RACE rather the terrorist values that they espouse.




Michael
said
0 0

Although I'm not inclined to blindly defend a 15 year old with a hand grenade in any part of the world, I am even less inclined to defend the behavior of the US in subverting international law and undermining the proper role of the UN in prosecuting war crimes. Mr. Khadr may be guilty of war crimes as the US asserts but to prove this requires a fair trial in a credible, transparent, and unbiased, internationally supervised court. Until that happens, I have no choice to assume he is innocent.


Stephanie
said
0 0

If he is being charged for this so should all American soldiers for all the people they have murdered.


Gary Findlay
said
0 0

Before we get carried away about who is right or wrong; do you honestly think the Americans or the family of the soldier killed would accept this so called "child" soldier being sent to trial under the terms of the Canadian Young Offenders Act. Get Serious. I am a Canadian and I would think this is a joke to even suggest this. It will never happen.


Stephanie
said
0 0

One of the issues in question is that he was 15 when he committed his crime; very well, in the Muslim culture you are considered a man at the age of 13, and can legally be the head of your entire family, if you are the oldest son and your father should die. He was a man in his own thoughts, and the only reason this is not coming into play is because he wants to get off, so that he can kill again! He is abusing, or rather his council is, the system to go free for fostering Terrorisim and killing another soldier. He was a soldier, he considered himself adult enough, so did his superiors, and her succeeded in his mission. Don't you think that once he gets out they will reward him!? Next time it WILL BE CANADA!


Ray - North Bay
said
0 0

Maybe deportation of him and his whole family is the ultimate answer. It sickens me that this person can call himself a Canadian. The second he left for his military ambitions as a combattant against alies, he gave up his Canadian Citizenship. I think that the U.S. has every right in detaining this man. Let them prosecute him then let them return him to us where we will greet him with deportation papers.

One more thing, he might have been 15, but he knew exactly what he was doing.
Let's focus on supporting our troops' safe,quick return home.


Michael Le Couteur CD
said
0 0

Is this the same bunch that put camera man Sami al Hajj in Guatanamo and left him there to rot. Only now saying he will be released as he is pretty much screwed up and dying. Anything on the 22 year old Afghan taxi driver. "Taxi to the Dark side". It shows how an innocent man CAN be tortured and killed(Bagram Air base not Gitmo). It would seem that there have been some errors with this and others with regard to institutions of Higher torture and who resides there. Middle Eastern plus some allegations/lies and off to "Gitmo" you go. Do you think the Hague will have enough room in the gallows to sort out the atrocities the US and its paranoid regime have done.? History will tell. Must be frightening to be a cornered animal.


BOBT
said
0 0

This man was not a child soldier. They are children that were forcibly taken from home and forced to fight. he went voluntarily. The whole family are only Canadian for convenience and health care. Let the Americans have him. He will get better treatment than if they gave him to the Afgans. And why do so many keep saying he is being tortured. I have heard no evidence of this, except hearsay from bleeding hearts.

MCpl
said
0 0

I was also in Afganistan in July 2002. I had a Canadian Army Uniform on. This family needs to be expelled form our nation.These groups will not stop until we stop them.

james
said
0 0

I agree Evan, unfortunately the US has a long history of kangaroos courts. Ask any American black or hispanic. Canadian courts routinely refuse American orders because of a lack of legal process commensurate with international norms.

I don't think Canada and our government owe anything to Khadr or his family. Thy have spit in Canada's face.

I do think, however, that the government MUST stand up for internationaly recognized conventions and norms of justice. The US fails on all counts: not only to Khadr but other detainees.

It is a very dangerous precedent to set by passively condoning the US and their mickey mouse judical system.

Who's next?


DF from rural Canada
said
0 0

And we wonder why the canadian Gov't does not want to talk about prisoner tranfers, the thoughts are a lttle bit out of control here. A terrorist is a terrorist, Canadian or other. Why not admit that and leave it alone.


Wayne
said
0 0

He is fine just where he is we should not spend 1 minute or 1 dollar to assist anyone who voluntarily leaves Canada and then takes up arms against others irrespective to what country it is. As of the moment he picked up a gun or grenade and intended harm on others he abrogated any and all rights and or assistance that would be due a canadian and in point of fact his family should be made financially responsible much like war reparations.


Mickey
said
0 0

I hope everybody talking about him and his citizenship (Ray, Shamaro) remember that he was born in Canada. Not that it should matter if he was born here or not. A Canadian Citizen is a Canadian Citizen.


Old Sergeant
said
0 0

I find it troubling that many Canadians are unaware of the internationally accepted laws of armed conflict. There are a few items that one should be aware of before commenting:
-Mercenaries are not legally combatants, and are therefore not accorded POW status.
-Children are protected persons under GC IV, but this protection may be waived if they partake in hostilities.
- Article 8 of the Rome Statute has declared enrolment of any child under the age of 15 a war crime.
- Article 117 of GC III requires that detained children must be repatriated as soon as possible after guarantees have been given that they will not be used as combatants.
There are many slippery slope arguments here: (1)how can Canada guarantee that Khadr will not be used as a combatant, when his acts were not sanctioned by the state to begin with? (2)Canada did not recruit Khadr to fight, and the Taleban is no longer a legitimate entity, who's accountable? (3) Canada did not recruit the Khadr family to fight alongside the Taleban, nor did they sanction their actions (they were mercenaries, cut and dried).


rdarcy
said
0 0

The Khadr's parents new exactly in what position they were putting their son in and He accepted and trained.
If this case is not treated as enemy combatant, what will stop other countries from recruiting under 15 year olds to do the dirty work, knowing that if caught they will not be procecuted. Same thing is happening now with the GANG CRIMES in our Cities. The hard criminals are recruiting kids to sell drugs, rob, and turf war actions. They also know that because of our archaic youth offenders law, they can do whatever and only get a splap on the wrist.


RC
said
0 0

Call him a Child soldier, but the fact is he is 15 years old, old enough to know what is right or wrong, beside, he went there willingly, with the intent of killing american soldiers. SO try him and I agree with the canadian government for not helping him. I hated it when when these people will hide behind the protection of their Canadian citizenship to carry out their crimes against humanity thinking they will be protected by Canada or by these Human Rights people. No wonder cases committed by these "children" has been increasing because they know they are protected for being children. Canada is a peace loving country - terrorist, drug dealers, killers and the like of India's Dr. Horror has no place in Canada.



fixhist, Toronto
said
0 0

Not sure why there is confusion about Mr.Khadr, if he is guilty of any crime or not.
It is premature to prejudge without his case being considered.
ISAF/NATO in Afghanistan is under UN authorization and defined guidelines.
In case of Mr. Khadr his present location has made has created legal lacunae.
If NATO/ISAF gets him back to Afghanistan, rest will be procedural.
we know parliament is already seized with the matter of handling detainees in Afghanistan.

Canadian Commander Incharge Maj.-Gen. Marc Lessard should arrange Mr.Khadr's transfer in custody of Canadian forces, for proper assessment and trial as per Canadian forces codes/Civil trial.


Brad
said
0 0

This case has unfortunately become as much about grandstanding defence lawyers, who will say and do anything to get involved in a high profile case, as it is any of the other multitude of issues. Canada of course has an obligation generally to protect it's citizens but that needs to be examined on a case by case basis. I wouldn't support this fellow one bit. The comparison to real child soldiers in other parts of the world is laughable.


DW
said
0 0

If in fact that Khadr is a citizen and born here in Canada, he should be tried for treason.
Something to think about.



Rob
said
0 0

Americans may be trying to discourage combative countries from involving children in warfare by taking a hard stance with this case. Nervy soldiers have a hard enough time keeping their eyes on non-uniforms wearing adults who are possible combatants without having to broaden their target possibilities to children.
They seem to be mum about it as it may not wash as a good enough reason among pollsters.


mstocker
said
0 0

I am shocked and appalled by the opinions expressed here by others.

He is FIFTEEN years old. Not seventeen. Not sixteen.

We believe as Canadians that people under the age of eighteen may not and often do not have the requisite mental capacity to fully understand and appreciate right from wrong and the consequences of actions taken at that age.

This isn't a matter that he was 17 years old and 11 months at the time he was captured or joined. He was 15 when captured.

End of story. Trying him as a criminal IS a crime against humanity.




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