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PM defers to military to disclose prisoner info
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Tue. Jan. 29 2008 6:59 PM ET
While spending much of Tuesday's question period deflecting jabs by the opposition accusing him of using the armed forces as a scapegoat, Prime Minister Stephen Harper still refused to share details about prisoners captured by the Canadian military in Afghanistan.
Opposition leaders spent Parliament's second day back in session blasting the prime minister on keeping Canadians in the dark regarding Canada's Afghan mission.
After listing the number of captives held by the Netherlands, United States and United Kingdom, NDP leader Jack Layton demanded to know how many people were in Canadian custody and where they were being held.
"If the military decides to reveal that information, it is their decision," Harper responded. "I guess what it means is Canada makes it own policies."
After recent revelations that Canadian Forces stopped transferring detainees to Afghan authorities on Nov. 5 after allegations of prisoner torture, opposition MPs wanted to know how the military would determine that it was once again safe to hand captives to the Afghan authorities.
"The prime minister announced the (prisoner) transfers will resume at some unknown time," said Liberal Leader Stephane Dion. "Does he even have a concrete plan to ensure (that) when the transfers resume, the torture will stop?
"Will the prime minister realize that the buck stops with him on the leadership of this mission and he cannot scapegoat the military?"
Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe was additionally concerned the Canadian military might be more likely to let Afghani troops capture any prisoners so there would be no need for the halted transfers.
"The result is saying there is a risk of torture and Canada is washing its hands of it," Duceppe declared.
However, Defence Minister Peter MacKay quickly rebuked the suggestion that Canadians are standing idly by while Afghans arrest militants.
"That is not the practice of the Canadian army,'' he said, noting the government does not tell field commanders what to do on a case-by-case basis.
It's still unclear what is happening to prisoners.
Retired general laments parliamentary micro-managing
According to Canadian Maj.-Gen. (Ret.) Lewis MacKenzie, the endless parliamentary uproar probably likely plays a role in the military's reason for keeping prisoner information to itself.
"Back in the Netherlands the people aren't hanging on every word the commander says," he told CTV's Mike Duffy Live on Tuesday evening, referring to one of three countries involved in the mission known to disclose prisoner information to its public.
"There are detainees being taken, they are being taken somewhere. I think commanders are getting somewhat teed off about how they're being micromanaged and micro-analyzed."
MacKenzie also responded to rumours the Kandahar airfield base -- which is staffed by many local citizens -- had been infiltrated by the Taliban.
"I can guarantee you it's been infiltrated," said the retired general. "There's never been a mission in my life where the locals don't infiltrate civilian staff.
"You assume you've been infiltrated," he added, noting a popular strategy is to disseminate false information throughout the base in order to fool those who may use it maliciously. "Some people back here seem to think (war is) some sort of sterile by-the-book type of activity. I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way."
Time to reassess goals, says Rae
The lack of new information from Harper on Tuesday didn't come as a surprise to many observers, particularly after the recently released Manley report on the future of the Afghan mission, which criticized Harper's government for secrecy and lack of vision for the mission.
Liberal Foreign Affairs Critic Bob Rae said Tuesday morning it's time to reassess Canada's goals in Afghanistan and come up with an exit strategy that reflects the outcome.
Rae, who hopes to win a seat in the riding of Toronto Centre, spoke to CTV's Canada AM one day after Harper said he accepts the "broad recommendations" of Manley's report.
Harper told an Ottawa news conference on Monday that his government accepts the report's recommendation that the mission be extended so long as the extension is conditional on more NATO support and equipment.
Rae said it's time to rethink the mission, then decide how long we should stay involved.
"What is the most realistic and effective way for Canada to stay and where do we have the greatest chance for success? In our view, an open-ended, never-ending military mission that focuses on counter-insurgency is not going to succeed and we have to create a mission that has a more realistic chance of success," Rae said.
The panel recommended that NATO find a 1,000-soldier battle group to assist Canada's 2,500 troops in Kandahar province -- one of the most insurgency-wracked parts of Afghanistan.
It also said Canada's soldiers should be supplied with helicopters and aerial drones.
Rae said he believes Canada should remain in Afghanistan for the next few years in some capacity, but not necessarily a military one.
"I think we really have to move away from this notion this is exclusively a military mission or that the only thing Canada is doing or should be doing is counterinsurgency and military activity of that kind," Rae said.
"We've got to take a step back and try to get an assessment of where this country of Afghanistan is going and how can we actually help to advance the cause of stability, which has to be our objective."
He acknowledged that the mission in Afghanistan is a tough one thanks to a complex political situation, a history of violence and the presence of the Taliban.
"It's a very difficult challenge and I think what the Liberal party has consistently said is we didn't go there with the promise we were going to stay there forever. This is not a forever mission," he said.
Rae said Canada should focus more on finding political solutions and increasing stability in Afghanistan, as well as working on development and diplomacy. He added that other NATO nations also need to step up and do their part so Canada can back away from its combat role.
On Monday, Harper said Canada's work in Afghanistan should be reviewed on progress towards benchmarks within two to three years' time.
Any extension of Canada's mission will need Liberal support in Parliament to pass. Dion indicated a possible deal if some conditions are met, including rotating Canadians out of the volatile Kandahar region within the next three years.
"(Harper) should push for the principle of rotation," Dion told reporters. "If we don't have this principle, I don't see how this mission will work for the long haul."
But some Liberals, including defence critic Denis Coderre, suggested they would not risk an election on the issue.
"Personally, I wouldn't go to an election on Afghanistan," he said.
While a full response to the Manley report is weeks away, Harper said he would be leading a diplomatic effort to secure more support from NATO allies at a key meeting in Bucharest, Romania in April.
He thought the report would give him "tremendous ammunition" there -- and he gave a warning.
The government will introduce a motion this spring seeking support of the House of Commons for the mission, which is set to end in its current form on February 2009.
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I applaud the budget, even though Health Care and education may stay unscathed. Sadly this cannot last and I worry to later this year where cuts will become enviable. If anything, this provides the Wildrose Alliance plenty of ammo when an election is called.








Comments are now closed for this story
Kanatian
said
This regime keeps hiding behind its lies of why Harper is appeasing the US in Afghanistan. The informed know full well what the purpose of NATO is in Afghanistan; it is not peace, democracy or stability.
It is time to get out and stop the insanity of a failed war, failed foreign policy and a failed government.
John
said
The Canadian government has NOT supported the US war on terror unconditionally.
In case you forgot Mr. Chretien turned his back on our closest ally when it came time to help the Iraqi people. Furtermore, Mr. Martin contemplated withdrawing from Afganistan. He delayed for so long that when he finally came to his senses the only deployment left was the killing fields of Kandahar.
If the former liberal government had acted responsibly Canada wouldn't be in the role we are in Afganistan.
Prime Minister Harper and his team have made the best of a rotten situation. They are doing the honourable thing and helping innocent civilians, while rebuilding Canada's ternished reputation on the world stage.
Gerald Skowronski
said
T-Roy
said
Riley
said
What needs to happen is that these two camps come together and learn that BOTH development and military are needed to succeed. One can not be used without the other.
Al
said
Derek
said
Canada cannot keep putting its brave men and women in harms way unless it has specific goals.
R.J.
said
Canada is in Afghanistan because the people of Afghanistan need our help and want us there. Oh sure, the Taliban doesn't want us there, but I didn't realize Canadians bend to the will of terrorists instead of average citizens.
larry
said
I would accept the Manley report before anything that Bob (socialist) Rae ever says and I believe Harper has said he accepts the report in principle. The two professors that are trying to run the Liberal party have no experience at anything approaching reality so there comments need continual scrutiny. And then we have 'Taliban' Jack...
This commitment will likely take 10 years and move from a military one to more of a peacekeeping one as time and common sense dictates. Meanwhile we need to keep our place and support human rights, even if it has to be with a gun. Harper has shown actual leadership.
The group in Canada that talks about human rights but chickens out and runs when the going gets tough need to find some courage and common sense.
Iami Iamme
said
Chris from Calgary
said
LRG
said
Canadian Soldier
said
John
said
John O'Connor
said
Leo
said
Not our concern if the Taliban pull all the women out of schools, execute anyone who showed any sympathy for the NATO effort, and return the country to a cultural wasteland.
We're not our brothers' keepers. Our concern and charity for others should end at Canada's borders.
James Walton
said
Decreasing corruption in the government of Afghanistan ought to be one of the first. Ensuring proper political representation of Afghans ought to be the next. We as Canadians may not agree with all of their political goals, but they should be heard and implemented. And thirdly measurable targets for regional development need to be set. Successfully fighting a counter-insurgency campaign is all well and good, but if no human development occurs in the improved security environment, its ultimately futile. Targets such as increased agricultural output, access to clean drinking water, increased enrollments in schools and access to medicine need to be set and stuck to.
Paradigm shift
said
-Control movement accross the Pakistan border. Use laser detectors, sound detectors, cameras, minefields.
-issue high tech identification cards
-Train the Afghans to do the repetative verifications.
-Place electronic message boards and alert population to curfews.
Introduce robotic patrolers to the 21st century battlefield, it's time.
baddogbob
said
Kevin L
said
Come on people, helicopters are so easy to shoot down.
American and Dutch helicopters are used in Canada's area of operation on almost a daily basis. They transport troop back and forth between KAF and the FOBs. None have been shot down. The Russians lost so many because the Afghan's were being supplied with American anti-aircraft missiles.
Allan Eizinas
said
We never had any! To have measurable goals you then have a system to evaluate success or failure. You also have a debatable set of norms and an exit strategy. We have none of these.
We were sucked into this bloody human meat grinder quagmire by a military leadership command that did not understand the enormity of this war – Hillier has already admitted to that fact.
Right now we appear to be ruled by “doing the right thing” or “a sense of honor to commitment” or “fight them there or fight them here” or “kill those murderers and scumbags”.
Nice goals.
I remember Vietnam and Somalia. These were the same “goals” for Vietnam and Somalia. Time to establish measurable goals or Afghanistan will end up just like Vietnam and Somalia.
Army Wife
said
Max
said
You say you are informed and you know what the purpose of NATO is in Afghanistan, yet you do not say it. Please elaborate.
I have spent more than a year in Afghanistan trying to help its people. In the process, I have come to call many Afghans my friends. I have also made some people there unhappy. However, almost all will bluntly tell me that Canada is doing a good job and is accomplishing many good deeds there.
Simply put, they tell me that if we weren't, they'd be doing the same to us as they did to the Russians and the British before them.
Roch
said
I thought that is how our Government works, you know, we elect people to represent us.
Brad B
said
"...move away from this notion this is exclusively a military mission" That's the problem: it's not! It's also a humanitarian and rebuilding mission, but that takes military assistance and security to perform right now. Yes, right now there is a large fighting component, but that is bound to change, given the Manley report. But for the critics who talk about this as "an oil war" or "US puppets", please, take the time to actually do some research. Find out who else is there, why they are there, and why WE are there. And John, you may want to look up how many other troops have died from other countries.
Paul
said
In the comments section lately, when people question the mission, there have been these angry, reflexive rationales that the reason we're in Afghanistan is because of 9/11 and the fact that some Canadians were killed in that attack.
This is nonsense. Tragic as those deaths were (as were all innocents killed on that day) Canada was not attacked on 9/11. If this mission is about going after factions in a country that facilitated a terror attack in which Canadians died as collateral damage, then this rationale would justify Canada attacking right wing militia bases in the USA if some Canadians were killed inside the Murrah building in Oklahoma when it went down. We wouldn't use our army to attack militia bases or factions that harbour terrorists over that terror attack, and on the same principles we have no business doing the same in Afghanistan.
gerald bryant
said
David_K
said
Owen
said
barry
said
Kris
said
What, exactly, did Iraq have to do with the "War on a Noun" (terror)?
Staying out of that fiasco was one of the greatest decisions ever made by a Canadian Prime Minsiter.
That being said, we should stay and help the Afghan people, but what's wrong with implementing benchmarks? Are we just supposed to keep tossing money at the problem, with no audit on performance and ROI?
Lillian
said
To ARMY WIFE- Thank you and all other wives, parents, etc. of the military for your sacrifice.
Baddogbob has it right. Why is the media paying so much attention to someone who has no seat in Parliament, namely Bob Rae? Didn't we have more than enough of his policies in Ontario during the last decade of the nineties?
Ian
said
I don't recall any talk of an 'exit strategy' in WW2 or Korea.
Our enemies count on our impatience. Don't reward them. Stay and get on with it.
Chris from Calgary
said
There are tangible goals set for Afghanistan. I wish people would stop with their verbal diarhhea about "there are no goals for Afghanistan" because there certainly are. WE JUST NEED HELP FROM THE OTHERS.
We also need the Afghan government to figure out a way to stop their soldiers and police from deserting their posts, but, that's another story.
MRM
said
Vince M.
said
They went there as part of a UN sanctioned mission to remove the Taliban after 911 and in its place help create the envoronment for a stable, democratic government.
The goal is met when that governmnt is able to sustain itself without outside help, at which time the participants of the UN sanctioned mission will gladly leave.
To meet that goal you have to hold elections (done), train an Afgan army to defend the government (underway), create useful infrastructure and services to show people a democratic system can make their lives better (underway). But most of all create and maintain a secure environment where the former can happen without interference from the ousted Taliban. THAT'S what we are currently doing.
Now what was hard about that?
sean ford
said
I am ashamed that Canada has lost it's will to fight for worthwhile things, and Afghanistan IS a worthwhile thing: just ask any straving kid that received international aid and hada full belly when they went to bed.
The hallmark of "being Canadian" these days it seems is a willingness to stand for absolutely nothing, and that is NOT something that makes me want to wave a flag and say I am proud to be a Canadian.
Tom
said
hollinm
said
a CF member
said
Andrew
said
All human rights should be enjoyed by all people.
If we as Canadians believe this then we need to be in Afghanistan, if we fail to help the 4th poorest country on the face of the earth then we are no better than the Taliban. We cannot abandon these people they need us to free them from the thugs who wish to keep them surpressed, and rebuild their country and their lives.
Reality Bites
said
And why is Bob Rae even getting press on this? As someone else has mentioned he doesn't even have a seat in Parliamrnt. It seems Iggy,Rae and Dion get too much media attention.
Thank you Army Wife. I am so glad you have been given a chance to comment on this forum.
Jim McB
said
Lou MacKenzie tried to explain the need for information control on MDL. It is likely the base has been infiltrated by Taliban, as the bases have been on all missions with enemy agents, and secrecy along with disinformation is used to control their success.
The other problem he addressed is that the media and the opposition parse every word that comes from the military to make some story or for spin. The military's only option is not to talk. WE have put our people in that situation with our behaviour.
There have been outright lies reported, like the CDS calling PM Harper, all this while he is on leave with his family. This poisons the relationship with the media and I'll bet that there is a prolonged period where the media tries to prove that they were correct rather than setting the record straight. This controversy has a negative impact on the morale of our troops.
Setting measurable goals is possible when sitting on your butt in an office somewhere. It does not extrapolate into some battlefield measuring technique. Perhaps the media should be going to the NGO's and the reconstruction teams and keeping track of their achievements, but that would not be news, and the left would have problem spinning it into anti government rhetoric.
Josh in Ontario
said
Des Emery
said
Since Mr. Harper is now 'deferring' to the military the point of discussion should be about the nuances of that information, not whether Mr. Rae is qualified to give an interview, or whether Mr. Dion is able to lead a political party, but rather should the Minister of Defense or the Minister of Foreign Affairs or the Prime Minister himself make the announcement to disclose POW information. And was it made to keep us informed, or to mislead us, or to placate disgruntled military officers. Have there been more prisoners taken? Are they in American prisons or NATO prisons? If we are going to be there for an undetermined time, should we build our own prisons there?
Lots of questions, and no need to put anyone down.
One more comment, not a putdown -- this is not a war as usual. There is no line in the sand. There is no thin blue line, holding the fort until reinforcements arrive. There are no battlements to scale, no Vimy Ridge, no Maginot Line, no trenches for shelter. The enemy does not advance into battle against us, but creeps silently behind us and strikes without warning. The question then becomes "How many casualties can we accept? How long can we persist in helping those who will not help themselves.?
Ont. North Dave
said
Let the REAL generals and soldiers do their job...the one they swore to do, to protect the same virtues 90% percent of the commentators on this site claim to believe in.
I've worn the uniform - and I believe in the mission. My views on how the war can and should be won may differ from others. However, I'm not supportive of people's relentless attempt to smear the oft-snap decisions that are made in a theatre of combat. It is easy to sit at my computer and criticize decisions made...given time to reflect and ponder the "failures" or misfortunes of others.
It's all very sickening.