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Conservatives release Grewal tapes on website
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Wed. Jun. 1 2005 6:28 AM ET
Transcripts and audio files of negotiations between a prominent Liberal staffer and Conservative MP Gurmant Grewal have been released on Grewal's website.
Those named in the transcripts include Tim Murphy, Prime Minister Paul Martin's top aide, and Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh.
Grewal alleges he and his wife were offered plum posts in exchange for their support in the crucial budget vote. However, Dosanjh and Murphy deny any wrongdoing and say Grewal approached them.
CTV Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife looked over the transcripts after they were released Tuesday afternoon.
"The transcripts indicate that the calls were from the Liberals, were made by Minister Dosanjh, another Liberal in B.C. and Mr. Murphy... but these are Mr. Grewal's transcripts."
Fife says the released transcripts indicate the prime minister knew about the negotiations.
"Although they say that the prime minister, if he meets with Mr. Grewal, couldn't make a firm offer to him," Fife said.
"Because he didn't want to be put in a position where would he have to lie to the public if Mr. Grewal voted with the government and then the prime minister was asked immediately 'What did you offer him?'"
Transcripts indicate that the series of calls was initiated by Sudesh Kalia, a Liberal organizer in B.C., on Sunday, May 16. An excerpt taken directly from the website follows:
- SK - Minister (Ujjal Dosanjh) called and asked me if I have spoken to you (GG). I said I have talked to him and explained our discussion. Looks like everything is OK and said that he (GG) should contact him (UD).
- GG - Should I contact him (UD) ?
- SK - Yes, he (UD) said GG should meet with him in the HOC. He (UD) will call me in the morning. He (UD) started talking with the big boss. Unless and until you sit face to face with the big boss nothing can be resolved. If promise is given face to face and I will take your (UD) promise also, if need be, I will also come and join you in the meeting. Everything looks OK, they (Liberals) are the ones who need you (GG).
- GG - We will communicate further tomorrow.
In another document released on the website, a transcript alleges the following dialogue took place between Dosanjh and Grewal on Tuesday, May 17. An excerpt follows:
- GG - We have to rush through because of the question period.
- UD - Today, question period is at 2 p.m.
- GG - Don't you have to prepare for it.
- UD - No, I can just prepare in 5 minutes, in the car. I think (Belinda) has made it easier for you, if you want.
- GG - That's true.
- UD - In fact, cabinet can be arranged right away. For the other, you don't want to lose the advantage. If you do right away, you lose the advantage of numbers.Those are the issues.
- GG - Anyway, let's talk.
- UD - I talked to the PM moments ago. He said he is going to Regina right now and he said he will be happy to talk to you over the phone tonight or in person if you want to move. I think you should have through conversation with Tim.
- GG - OK.
- UD - Tim is the Chief of Staff, its just like talking to PM.
Another document released outlines an alleged undated conversation that took place between Dosanjh and Grewal. An excerpt follows:
- UD - Tim told me to call. I think, as I said earlier, no prime minister would ever want to compromise himself with that kind of appropriate because he want to be able to say, 'I did not make a deal in it, there was no deal'. You came and we accepted you, if that happens. If you want to be able to say that honestly. That's why I was suggesting you, what I was suggesting you. That was the difficulty that Tim had. And you saw that. I think from my perspective, that's the way how my conversation went with the prime minister, when I came to the Liberals. You know we have Scott Brison, he came as a back bencher, stayed a back bencher, then he was prime minister's secretary.
- GG - No, he came directly.
- UD - Not to the cabinet.
- GG - OK
- UD - He was made parliamentary secretary.
- UD - Depends … and you know that's how the deals are made. I think I just wanted to call you that to let you know
- - Inaudible -
- UD - Prime minister is never going to say to you that … that I never said that. Youhave to be able to say that I did not make a deal. That's very important. That's why this kinds of deals are not made in that fashion. If you think about it, if you think it is appropriate …
Another document outlines an alleged undated conversation that took place between Murphy and Grewal. An excerpt follows:
- TM - It is not the only vote we may have to face that are about, my guess is when you look at issues like supplies, final votes on the budget, opposition, days, there could be as many 8 votes between now and the end of the session which could bring the government down.
- GG - Right.
- TM - And obviously each one of them will be a nail biter right until the end obviously the two votes that you and you wife represent are the way the house is made up now matter of loss or can matter, I mean you know, just to be honest, there are other members of your current caucus who are facing the same dilemma that you face and/or music.
- GG - Quite many?
- TM - Well I don't want in the same way I don't want to do anything I don't to.
- GG - I know for political reasons
- TM - But, you know if I am going to honour your trust I have to honour others, so I am not, I hope you don't think…
- GG - No that's OK.
- TM - So look, way to make it work and I think the way that allows us the freedom. As you can, just to be blunt, I think it is a bad idea truthfully to have any kind of commitment that involves an explicit trade.
Meanwhile, in question period on Tuesday, Opposition members continued to call on the Liberals to request for the RCMP to investigate the allegations and dump Murphy.
However, Prime Minister Paul Martin said it would be "most improper" for the government to do so and said he had yet to listen to the audiotapes himself.
"How can the prime minister say he was unaware when he was prepared to meet with the member for Newton-North Delta the evening before the vote?" Harper asked Martin.
"I have . . . talked to the ministers of the government and the statement is absolutely clear: no offer was made; an offer was solicited (by Grewal)," Martin said during question period. "No offer was made, and that is the truth."
While Murphy stayed silent Tuesday, Dosanjh said the transcripts are suspect.
"I want the translation authenticated, I want the audio authenticated," he said. "I want to make sure that what we have is the straight goods."
Calls for release of the full taped conversations were ramped up, ever since Grewal said he was offered an ambassadorship and his MP wife, Nina, a Senate appointment, for abstaining on the May 20 budget vote.
That vote could have toppled the government. The Liberals survived, in part, because Belinda Stronach crossed from the Conservatives to the Liberals. She became a cabinet minister under Martin.
About eight minutes of the recording were previously released by the Conservatives. In the clip, Murphy is heard offering advice to Grewal about how he and his wife could miss the budget vote and guarantee a Liberal victory.
Murphy allegedly says he's willing to negotiate something later with Grewal.
However, he is also overheard rejecting an offer to discuss a Senate appointment. Murphy says it was Grewal who came calling with such a request.
As for Grewal, he can be heard asking Murphy to ask Immigration Minister Joe Volpe if he would back off allegations that Grewal and another Tory had offered to aid immigrants in return for money. Those allegations now being examined by the RCMP.
Grewal has acknowledged wanting Volpe to retract the allegations, but describes as "absolutely false" suggestions by Martin spokesman Scott Reid that he had asked for interference in the investigations.
The federal ethics commissioner Bernard Shapiro could announce Tuesday whether he will conduct an investigation into the alleged Liberal deal-making.
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I applaud the budget, even though Health Care and education may stay unscathed. Sadly this cannot last and I worry to later this year where cuts will become enviable. If anything, this provides the Wildrose Alliance plenty of ammo when an election is called.

