How has Uganda's war against the Lord's Resistance Army affected this country's development?

It has affected our country, particularly the north of Uganda, quite adversely.

The poverty figures in the north of Uganda are very bad. While the national average now is 35 per cent of the people in Uganda living below the poverty line, in the north of Uganda it is about 66 per cent. And that is all because of [LRA leader Joseph] Kony.

This war and the situation has encouraged AIDS, immorality, and hunger, and resulted in the abduction of children. It has caused lots of problems in the north of Uganda. Although the country has been growing at a quite fast rate of 6.5 per cent on the average, of GDP, we could have done much more than that, if we did not have this war. In the north of Uganda.

I don't know if you'll agree with this connection, but how does this war, the war you are fighting, relate to the broader war on terrorism being fought around the world?

It is directly linked, because Osama bin Laden was in the Sudan, and he was the one who started arming these [rebels from the Lord's Resistance Army] and arming another group called the ADF, a group of Muslim people who were operating in the west of Uganda. Our fight is directly linked to world terrorism.

Why are people in the west not informed about the situation in Uganda, do you think?

They are always indifferent to our problems. When Idi Amin was killing us they never said anything. When [former President Milton Apollo] Obote was killing us they never said anything. So we are used to that. We are used to their indifference. I don't know why. It must be because, I don't know. It always hits the news, the atrocities of Kony, they always come up. In the newspapers. So I therefore don't know why the western countries are indifferent to our suffering here.

Why do you think?

Well, maybe because Africans don't matter so much. If some 20 women are killed in Bosnia that is a big issue. If some five women are beaten in Zimbabwe -- white women, beaten in Zimbabwe -- then that's a big issue. But if 800,000 Ugandans are killed by Idi Amin and Obote, nobody bothers. It's an old story.

What do you want the west to do?

Some of the western countries like the United States have done something good. They have listed Kony and his group as a terrorist group. Uh, on the world list of terrorists. That's good. But maybe they could withdraw their objections to us equipping our army much faster. They normally restrain us from equipping our army. As you can see in this very tall grass, the weapon that is most useful is the helicopter and some few other specialized equipments.

Yet the western countries always interfere with our budgeting process. They force us to remain at 2 per cent of GDP for spending on defence. Even when 500,000 people are refugees in camps! In northern Uganda, these people are in internally displaced people's camps. So they [the west] should therefore just withdraw their objection and let us prioritize our budget as we see fit. If they don't want to assist us, they should at least not interfere with us.

What about more direct action, Mr. President? George Bush said, wherever there is terror, we'll root it out and find it. He said that, supported by his allies in the west, including Canada. How would you feel about western countries, say, sending their jets here and bombing Kony's camps?

Well, that would be good, showing real solidarity with us. Some western countries have indeed helped us with a little bit of information. Which I don't want to go into. But some have helped us with a little bit of information. But this is not enough. We need much more than that.

I wouldn't support troops coming here on the ground, but equipment is all we need. Helicopters, surveillance equipment, that's all.

One thing I'll say, the western countries have helped us with a network of roads. Because that was also a problem. As you can see this is a very rich savannah with very tall grass and filled with shrubs and with a lot of rainfall. Therefore without roads it was difficult to move around. The west has helped us with construction of murram [gravel] roads. So they have helped us, but it's not enough.

Of course you're a father. The latest figures I've read is that 14,000 children have been abducted by Kony and his colleagues.

Yes, many. But they've been dying! So we can't find them. When we uprooted Kony's camps in the Sudan, I think he had no more than 5,000 people. Now we can assume that the other 9,000 have perished. Because they were kidnapped and they have not been accounted for. Certainly Kony's group was not more than 5,000. So we know that many have been dying. Of course some escaped, but if you deduct those, then you can assume that the balance of the people were abducted but did not return, did not escape, and are not with Kony now. These have died. It's terrible. But we are used to those traumas. We lost 800,000 people to Amin and Obote. So, we are sort of hardened by our relative experiences.

So why are you here now, in northern Uganda?

For those kids, and for the population in general. And for the image of our country. Because this war keeps on generating adverse publicity for our country. So we must stop this war.

Are you taking this war personally, Mr. President?

Noooo. Why personally?

But you've come up here, you've put on your fatigues, you look ready for a fight.

Yes, certainly. But, well, what do you mean by personally?

This is now your personal war. It's no longer just a tactical battle between two armies ...

But I've always been fighting. So.I don't know.

But why are you here now, in northern Uganda, in your fatigues and ready to fight?

To help the commanders in their analysis and correct their mistakes and to guide them and to give guidance.

You could have sent someone else to do that? Why come up here and do it yourself?

Some of these armies [in Africa] are young. They don't have a big bank of experienced people. So, it's good we pass on our experience. This war will end. It will end.

Many people in my country will look at this and say, 'this is just typical of Africa.' Should the west maybe just say 'this is Africa: all the time killing and it means nothing. There's no good and no bad."

That is a racist attitude. There are parts of Africa that have been peaceful for a very long time. Tanzania [Uganda's neighbouring country to the south] has never had problems. Even in the south of Uganda, it is developing very fast -- it's had problems in the past, political ones, but that part of Uganda is very peaceful now. And developing fast. So how could someone sustain their prejudice?

How can Uganda be different if this war stops?

Uganda can be modernized. To modernize society means to change the economic base of the society. To change it from a society based on manual labour to a society based on intellectual labour -- using the brain. That means education, sending everybody to school, and turning Uganda into an industrial country.

Beating Kony will attract and bring in investors. This war creates adverse publicity that sometimes scares away investors who would otherwise come. Also of course it polarizes this part of the country. They don't contribute to the production of goods, especially agricultural goods, although they are specialized in cotton and animals and so on.

But Mr. President, I can't help but wonder, why should somebody in Canada want to help you? To stop Kony and the LRA? What's in it for us in the west?

The west will benefit. First of all, I was taught they were Christians, so helping us will be good for their souls [grins]! It says in the bible that you should love your neighbours like you love yourself, so helping us would be good for them. However, more materially, Africa is a very big potential market. Eight hundred million people now. Most speaking English. So why would you not trade with this huge Africa as much or even more as you trade with China? So definitely, it is in the west's own self interest to help us. Stopping the wars and bringing peace to Africa will mean a big market for the west and also the west becoming a big market for us. There can be a very big complementarity between the blocks.

Many in the west despair about Africa, Mr. President.

Africa will have to be part of the 21st century. Africa is a very important part of the geography of the world. You can't go around us! You remember how much trouble the Europeans went through trying to go around Africa to get to China [grins] because Africa is precisely in the middle of the globe.

Do you call this fight against the LRA Uganda's war on
terror?

Yes! It's Uganda's war on terror. Yes.

Where is NEPAD in all this?

NEPAD is not just about stopping wars, it's also about market access, it is also about [African countries] planning together, especially for infrastructure. If you look at the volumes of trade --for instance, you take agriculture. Some years ago the value of agricultural goods was 1.2 trillion US dollars. Africa was getting only $13 billion out of that. That's about 1 per cent. Now, this is outrageous. The question is, if Africa cannot get money out of agricultural products, then where else can they get money from? So, opening the world market will bring more money into Africa than ODA [overseas development assistance], than aid! If you take the whole aid bill for Africa it is $50 billion annually. However the western countries spend $361 billion each year on subsidizing their inefficient producers. So, you can clearly see that the big way forward is through trade.

What does the west do about Zimbabwe? Have you got any advice?

The question of Zimbabwe is complicated. There is a genuine need for land reform, nevertheless it seems Mr. Mugabe's people have been using the wrong methods. Therefore our view has always been, there is a need for a comprehensive discussion of the issue. Not only to concentrate on Mr. Mugabe's wrong methods, or to talk of only land reform and ignore the crude and barbaric ways Mr. Mugabe has been using; all issues must be discussed in an international forum charged with facing this issue.

But why have African leaders not spoken out against Mr. Mugabe publicly?

Because the Europeans have so far been very simplistic and partisan in their approach to the problems. They were only talking about the brutality to the white people. They were not talking about land reform. So this made it very difficult for African leaders to go with them the whole way in their attitude towards Mugabe. Yes Mr. Mugabe has used wrong methods, but there was a real problem in the first place. This is how we look at it.

Thank you Mr. President.