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Double dip recession could be different from past

The New York Stock Exchange is shown, Tuesday, Aug. 9, 2011 in New York. (AP / Mark Lennihan) An investor looks at stock prices at a bank in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Friday, Aug. 19, 2011. (AP / Lai Seng Sin)
The New York Stock Exchange is shown, Tuesday, Aug. 9, 2011 in New York. (AP / Mark Lennihan)

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This isn't Obama's problem. He inherited it from George and the Uber rich are the only ones who will fix it by paying down the debt in a reasonable fashion. It will take generations for Bushes folly to heal.

tired

Double dip recession could be different from past

talking about
Double dip recession could be different from past

Date: Sunday Aug. 28, 2011 8:25 AM ET

TORONTO — Double dip might sound sweet atop an ice cream cone or a doughnut - but history suggests that for an economy, it means a bitter period of low employment and troubling finances for those who suffer through it.

But even if the Canadian economy slips into recession for a third time in the past hundred years - a fate that is still far from inevitable _it is destined to play out differently than it has in the past, economists say.

Fears that the U.S. economy - the world's largest - could contract in the face of a slew of weak economic data has resulted in stock market havoc in recent weeks that has wiped out trillions of dollars in investments and savings and made people nervous on both sides of the border.

Last week alone, Canadian consumer confidence dropped to its lowest point in two years, and TD Bank estimated zero growth for Canada in the second quarter, noting there was a chance the economy actually shrank.

To cap it off, the United States has revised its second-quarter gross domestic product figures down to a measly one per cent from a previous 1.3 per cent, pegging economic expansion at 0.7 per cent in the first six months of 2011.

Growth forecasts for the rest of 2011 have been slashed. If American GDP figures turn negative for two consecutive quarters, the country will officially be back in recession. Economists say if that happens, Canada could follow suit.

A "double dip,'' also known as a W-shaped economic cycle, has been increasingly bandied about as it becomes apparent that not just the United States but some of the world's biggest economies in Europe may be unwilling to make bold moves to deal with their debt.

The term refers to an economy that emerges from recession with a short period of growth, only to slump again into contraction. Canadians have seen it occur twice - the Great Depression in the 1930s and more recently during inflationary times in the 1980s.

It can mean a prolonged period of high unemployment and stock market selloffs. Dejected consumers are less likely to spend, which can prompt a downward spiral that continues until political powers apply a jolt.

"Periods of double dip recession are few and far between,'' said Aron Gampel, deputy chief economist at Scotiabank, who believes another recession can still be avoided with concerted efforts.

"The problem now is that the headwinds the developed world is facing are very significant because they're debt-related ... it's a suffocation of global growth caused by the need to pare down debt.''

David Jacks, an economics professor at Simon Fraser University, puts the odds of a double dip recession at 50-50.

But he said it might be a decade before the country emerges from "this mess that was created over the past 10, 20, 30 years.''

People were too quick to assume the downturn sparked by the global banking crisis in 2008 would be a "garden variety'' recession, like we saw in the 1990s and 2000s, Jacks said.

With growth slowing so soon into a recovery, the economy increasingly appears to be headed toward something more akin to what Canadians saw from 1929-33, then in 1937-38 and again in the 1980 and 1981-82 setbacks, he added.

But economists are skeptical about drawing meaningful lessons from those eras because the current crisis is wider in scale as the global economy is more interconnected and could be longer-term because it stems from a cycle of debt handed down from consumers to banks to governments.

The continuing debt crisis is unlike anything seen in the past because it is framed by a still-fragile global financial sector, said Finn Poschmann, vice-president of research at the C.D. Howe Institute.

"The scale of the sovereign debt risks are much larger in aggregate relative to the economy,'' he said.

"The indicators suggesting an economic slowdown in a number of areas, most worryingly in the U.S., are now occurring in the face of a financial marketplace that has not recovered on a global basis,'' he said.

While Canada's economy wouldn't necessarily follow into recession, he added, the economies are so intertwined that "a downturn in the U.S. market would have a readily detectable impact on Canadian output indicators.''

Canada followed the U.S. into a double dip recession in the 1980s.

Prior to the 1980 slump, a combination of an oil price shock and overall high inflation led the U.S. Federal Reserve to raise interest rates into the double digits, which slowed consumer growth and eventually put the brakes on hiring.

Continued high interest rates again plunged the Canadian economy into recession in the second half of 1982. The recession proved to be deeper, more widespread and longer than any previous post-Second World War downturn until that time, according to a 1985 Canada Yearbook entry.

Gampel noted the difference between that double downturn caused by a rapid spike in interest rates and the current scenario in which North American central banks are leaving lending rates at ultra-low levels.

But Jacks said the 1980s double dip was similar in that consumer psychology helped to extend the slowdown.

One lesson, he said, is that the psychological effects of low interest rates can help to keep another recession at bay, he said.

"When people see their brokerage accounts are worth more money and they feel that their house has appreciated in value, they're going to be more willing to . . . spend as normal.''

However, Armine Yalnizyan, a senior economist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, said the closest historical parallel to the crisis the world now faces was the 1930s period.

Prior to the Depression, there was a global supply chain expansion and a lot of emerging economies coming on stream, she said. In addition, people borrowed money to speculate and then investor confidence was shaken to the core.

"The market was full of instability and pack animal mentality which we've seen in spades in the last couple of weeks.''

However, Gampel of Scotiabank said that given the huge global strides over the past century, economies have evolved to the point that a comparison with the Depression era is unrealistic.

"A lot of the problems were seeing are structural in nature and essentially doom us to a slow and uneven growth path going forward. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to go into recession,'' he said.


Comments are now closed for this story

Cameron in Deux-Montagnes
said
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Not to worry.... I am sure that the "Powers That Be" will create another war somewhere else to jump start the military complex and bring unemployment down by conscripting more young cannon fodder (or create employment - depending upon whose political ideology one follows). Whose next? Syria? North Korea?


Edward Wellington
said
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Housing market in Canada to crash......what a selfish comment, maybe try working a bit harder.


Kent Bristo
said
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Why are our leaders not paying attention to Warren Buffet when he tells them that the rich need to be taxed at a rate at least equal to that of the average taxpayer? The very few honest and intelligent wealthy people realise that they are receiving the bulk of the benefits from taxpayer funded programs and are willing to pay their share! They realise that an economy that has consumers stretched beyond the breaking point, hampers growth for all! My vote is Buffet for President and Prime minister!


The Alberta Advantage
said
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@Brian...really nice...rather than pulling up your bootstraps, you would rather misfortune on others for your gain...pretty classy!!!


nothing new
said
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Western nations have been their own worse enemies.The delusional concept that exporting good paying manufacturing jobs to the third world and then importing products now made in sweat shops in coming home to roost."Free Trade" is nothing new as the neocon think tankers would have you believe.It has been tried in many disguises in many areas with always the same result.The vast majority see drastic reduction in the standard of living while a few at the top become fabulously wealthy.Now when nations try to stimulate their own economies they actually are sending tax payer dollars to a nation half way around the world.The politicians who have been responsible for the destruction of their own nations for the last 30 years will certainly go down in infamy like those at the turn of the 20th century.


Brian
said
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all i want to see is the housing market in canada to crash so i can afford a small 3 bedroom home for my family. Hopefully this uncertianty will cause it.


ron svajlenko
said
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People don't understanding why we are in this bad economic shape. Government DEBT IS NOT THE PROBLEM!! The failure is 30 years of Supply Side Economics/ Free Trade. Country's around the globe (not Governments) spend more money on Imports than they earn in Exports. No real wealth creation hallows growth. India, China, Germany and others are net gainers in Trade and have wealth growth!! You can't spend more tha you make without failure...Wake up!!


ISLANDER
said
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Visit you tube look for James Dines or Gerald Celente, its in line with the topic. thanks


A Soothing Bumpy Ride
said
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Obama has been spending like a drunken sailor to garner votes from the middle poor. Every other nation has had to spend at the same pace to keep their dollar down to stay competitive. QE3 is inevitable Wall Street will ensure the money taps are open to avoid the dreaded Bernank deflation and ensure US bank solvency. Every time the taps are turned on we all breathe a sigh of relief but eventually the piper will be paid with explosive interest rates and massive unemployment. Watch the EU money has started flooding out of banks into the US the run on the banks by the wealthy to protect their assets will eventually be covered by the media after they've protected their wealth. US banks are now charging the mega rich money to hold their cash - negative interest rates! Hang on tight the ride is going to get bumpy!


Cynical
said
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Regardless of growth being only about 1%, investors - particularly the institutions (banks, mutual funds etc) will be demanding higher profits from all the corporations on whose boards they sit, claiming they represent their own investors. True, but not so true as representing their own personal interests like 7-figure bonuses. To make such profits they put unreasonable pressure on companies already stretched to the limit, they play fast and loose with means to create profit on falling markets, using mathematical constructs instead of actual stocks. The article refers to the "$600 Trillion derivatives market" - a valuation of an imaginary thing and that probably wasn't worth $1 in the first place. Just as in Andersen's story, the Emperor has no clothes! Worse, we let it happen.


dante v
said
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let's get rid of the stupid meaningless phrase, double dip recession, There is no such thing it is called a depression. The sooner the rest of the world gets out of denial the better. It started nearly 20 years ago. If you call a hurricane a hurricane you can prepare to dig yourself out later. Well let's see how much more damage Wall Street can do tomorrow. remember we get weekends to allow things to settle until monday when the fear mongers get to work.


Joe Spumolio
said
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As one of the first to call for a true double dip over a year ago, I'll be one of the first to offer a solution. The greatest challenge to economic growth today is consumer confidence. This is based on the very real fears average citizens have about employment, savings and taxes. In a nut shell, here's what we have to do. First, regulate stock trading, with an eye to eliminating day traders and banning short selling. Second, we need balanced and fair trade, not the one way flow of goods from the 3rd world to our shores. Third, we need to have balanced budget legislation and make running a deficit a criminal offense. The piece of the puzzle is a flat tax of 26% on all income with a 50% capital gains tax. The key to recovery is sustainability, not some magic bullet that will slay the economic gremlins and cause roses to bloom.


Sever the Cord
said
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What is really needed is to free american politicians of the campaign contributions from corporations and special interests groups, to which they depend.If each representative didn't need to raise their own campaign dollars and pander to these coffers to be elected, then America would be much more robust in reacting to these economic issues. This was probably the core issue that led to the debt fiasco a month ago.How about eliminate corporate donations and shorten the election period so not as much money is required.


The Paulster
said
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I think that there are some very intelligent people - on both sides of the boarder and on both sides of the Atlantic - who are well aware of what needs to be done, and what needs to be avoided. Undoubtedly there will be a need for pretty significant redefinition of what citizens can expect their governments to provide, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The only thing that gives me cause for concern is that Prof. Pye Chartt seems to hold this same opinion. That is akin to getting a good checkup from Dr. Kevorkian!


tired
said
0 0

This isn't Obama's problem. He inherited it from George and the Uber rich are the only ones who will fix it by paying down the debt in a reasonable fashion. It will take generations for Bushes folly to heal.


Remarkable
said
0 0

If you have credit card debt, get rid of it now. If you have a mortgage, increase your payments and try and get it paid down. Don't live beyond your means, save more, buy only the essentials, the gravy train is coming to an end. For those who have been smart with their money over the years, you'll be in great shape to weather the storm, it will also be a good time time to buy undervalued stock. Buy low, sell high but unfortunately many people have been buying high, especially in the real estate markets. In the months and years ahead when unemployment moves up and people begin losing those big houses they couldn't afford, there will be alot houses on the markets during the recession that will not be able to be sold.


mynook
said
0 0

"I dont know what everyone is worrying about. Obama is a smart man and will get us through this."Actually, we should bring back George W. Bush. He was an even smarter man.


EU is Key
said
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The sad thing is David Dodge takes his marching from Flaherty who is economically illiterate. Canadian financial leaders including banksters suffer from isolationism, they think Canada is Shangrila and the universe revolves around us. IMO, if the US catches a cold Canada will catch pneumonia! Default of Greece is inevitable and the PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) all have bonds coming due over the next 12 months which will need another $1 Trillion EU loan fix. The problem is Germany has already signaled - no more bail outs! France is broke, US is broke, and China is buying gold and silver like gang busters! If the Euro Zone falls as the economy cools off the $600 Trillion derivatives market will collapse the world economy on short order! So the question is -- how long will you hold your paper assets which will be wiped out if a collapse occurs?


Phil in Finland
said
0 0

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Oh wait. It's just the media predicting the end of the world again. Wouldn't it be nice if someone wrote "The world may see another recession caused by the global depbt crisis, but fear not, good people, we have the fortitude to survive anything! We'll survive no matter what the media says! Putting bread on the table is far more important than an Audi TT RS! Soldier on!"


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