U.S. expert says jets will cost double Tory estimates

U.S. defense expert Winslow Wheeler and a former chief of the defense staff weigh in on the cost of F-35 fighter jets and whether they are a necessary purchase.

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A F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is seen a hangar in Ottawa on July 16, 2010. (Adrian Wyld / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

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One of the problems with the huge expenditure for the jets is that it is money flowing out of the country to a US supplier. Why hasn't Canada developed a more robust aerospace industry aside from Bombardier. We had one at one time before Diefenbaker (conservative) killed it off. If we were injecting that money into canadian companies to provide jobs to canadian workers I would have less trouble with the expense.

TheOtherLowellInBC

U.S. expert says jets will cost double Tory estimates

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U.S. expert says jets will cost double Tory estimates

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The Canadian Press

Date: Tue. Apr. 5 2011 9:03 PM ET

OTTAWA — A U.S. defence analyst says Canada's new fleet of stealth jet fighters will cost almost double what the Conservative government is projecting.

Winslow Wheeler, of the Centre for Defense Information in Washington, injected himself directly into the federal election by providing his estimate at a news conference on Parliament Hill.

Wheeler says the unit cost of the F-35 jet will be about $148 million per airplane -- an estimate that is in line with what the parliamentary budget officer has projected.

The government says the unit cost will be up to $75 million per jet, and has mounted repeated public attacks on the budget officer's estimate.

The untendered jet purchase is a contentious issue during the federal election campaign. The Liberals want to scrap the deal, saying it's not the way to go while the country is in deficit.

Wheeler worked for three decades on security issues for the U.S. General Accounting Office and members of the U.S. Senate.

He said the government's estimates refer to what is known as the unit recurring flyaway cost, or URF. He said the URF is not used in Washington because it doesn't include essential things needed to actually fly an aircraft.

It is not clear that Canada would get an F-35 with an actual engine at the cost the government is projecting, he said.

"It is therefore, I believe, very reasonable to expect that the parliamentary budget officer's higher estimate of $148 million per airplane -- if and when you get around to buying these things -- is by far and away the most accurate estimate. It's a complete airplane," Wheeler said.

"Nobody on this earth is going to be buying F-35s in flyable condition at $75 million a copy. That's not in the cards."

Wheeler said there should be a public audit of Canada's decision to buy the fighter jets, and he suggested the auditor general would be best placed to conduct it.

The government plans to buy the 65 high-tech fighters to replace Canada's aging fleet of CF-18 jets.

The government estimates the overall cost to taxpayers would be about $15 billion over 20 years, including maintenance costs. That estimate is based on a unit price of $75 million per plane.

On the campaign trail, Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff has argued that the stealth fighter jets are a big-budget Tory spending priority, along with corporate tax cuts and prison expansion, that would constrain future spending on health care.

However, the Harper government has mounted a vocal defence of its cost estimates for the F-35, saying it would create billions in industrial spin-offs for Canadian aerospace companies.

Comments are now closed for this story

Francine
said

Whether or not we need the jets is not the issue. The issue is the "Harper Government" has not divulged the true cost of the jets to the Canadian people and their representatives in the House. It is to the Canadian people that the "Harper Government" has lied to. Contempt of Parliament is also contempt of the Canadian population.

Ben Doverson
said

So wheres John Baird and Peter Mackay now,how can they still say their prices are right when two people from the defence dept say otherwise,who you gonna believe?the people that know the price or the people who think they know the price.Id believe the guys from the States,he also states the price Harper and his crew say wont get you an engine or other sophisticated avionics,sounds like he knows what he is talking about,unlike Harper, No wonder Harper opted for contempt of parliament he didn't want to tell the truth, now it's out Harper is a liar.

George
said

This is proof that the contempt charges are valid.

KJ in Kingston Ontario
said

As many have noted this character is far from being a truly independent voice -- he obviously has an axe to grind on this file and EVERYONE knows Iggy would end up spending more and getting less with this purchase in the end should he tear up the current deal. You can't defend the airspace over Canada into the 21st century with rocks and pointy sticks. When doesn't a government purchase cost more, not less... Look at the stupid tunnel the Liberals are funding in Ontario for hydro generation.... It's the same story.

Don Aitken
said

Now we see why Harper refused to come clean and provide Parliament with his cost estimates on the purchase of these Military Aircraft. This is the very reason he was found to be in CONTEMPT OF PARLIAMENT He is trying to Con Canadians into believing that he is solving the Largest Deficit in Canadian history that he has created ,by withholding the truth from us. Instead he is going to drive us further into debt by deliberately being deceitful. How can we trust a Government that wont tell the truth about how they are spending OUR MONEY?This only adds fuel to the Fire about how much of OUR MONEY are they going to waste on new prisons for all of the Unreported Crime they know about.DON'T GIVE HARPER the MANDATE to CON US AGAIN !!

Franl/London
said

How can anybody be surprised at this revelation, of course the costs will be double what the conservatives have stated.

Mike
said

Well looks like the Liberal plan to cancel these jets is the right decision and that as per usual Harper and his crew aren't telling the truth to Canadians.

nemsis
said

The one thing I don't see being discussed much on here is the relative merit of this aircraft or of Canada's requirement in the future.The F35 is a great first attack fighter, it does the job that the U.S Stealth fighters did in the first Iraq war.It is not an air to air superiority fighter. It would be only average in this roll. Part of our military commitment is to protect our arctic sovereignty and that means things like the much publicized interception of Russian bombers on their own training missions. I wholly agree that our military needs the best equipment available. I am not convinced that this is the aircraft our military needs at the moment.

B in B-town
said

@ Jack R. and the rest of you asking why we "arent building jets in Canada":We are building jets in Canada. I've seen F-35 parts on the shop floor where I work, at a VERY CANADIAN aerospace company!If the Liberals cancel this contract, not only will it be another Sea-King Fiasco but the Canadian Aerospace companies you espouse to support will take a big hit.$148M per figher x 65 = $9.62B base cost plus maintenance contracts that will provide good work for our high tech Canadian Aerospace Industry.

Niagara George
said

You don't have to look very hard on the internet to find experts saying these planes will cost at least $200 million each. Some are estimating considerably more than that. When you had all the extras needed to make the Canadian version and then to keep the planes in the air, the 20 year cost will be at least $400 million each. That one I would bet on.

Jake - Vancouver
said

Actually, other countries have started pulling out buying those jets, like the UK because of the high costs and limited capabilities. These F-35s only have one engine when we should be buying planes with 2 engines. They're usually used for bombing runs, which obviously Canada doesn't need to be getting into that business... not very useful on our own soil. I'm more likely to believe the US expert than Harper.

Glenn from Cow Town
said

There are 3 sides to every story, Conservative, Liberal and then the truth.

Doug
said

The purchase of the jet is based on future needs we aren't getting these tomorrow. The jet has been requested by the people who will use them not by the goverment. The cost can most likley be put forward in a dozen different ways and all be right. There was alot of study put into this jet and I don't think anybody here is qualified to say if its a good deal or bad. We have to trust our Military.

Ranger
said

I have a few questions1: The Price has double in 3 years ? not inflation which has around 0 % the last few years since the recession2: Are we comparing apples and oranges ? are simulators, training, hangers, tools included in their 148 million price?3: Is this US Spokesman just a shrill for the liberals ? Why is this coming out during a Canadian Election?4: The Government budgeted 9 billion for everything in number my 2nd question and that works out to 138 million per plane . Whats included in either Pages guesses or this US Spokesman cost estimates? Why doesn't the media get the facts right before quoting these so called experts.

Robin
said

First of all I am not opposed to the purchase of new Jets for our military we need to have upto date equipment and we need to be able to help defend North America if the need arises. However in this day and age it seems unlikely that we will be invaded by Russia or China.What bothers me most is that once again the Conservatives have misled the public and I would not be a bit surprised to find out that it was intentional and deliberate. How can we trust them with a Majority government.

Paul
said

If memory serves me correctly, our Canadian Forces requested THESE jets. The government has offered to purchase what they said they require. I don't trust any Politician, but especially a Liberal and especially a Liberal talking about National Defence spending.

Earthwatcher
said

The more I read about this issue, the less I think we need it. I mean, really who are we going to be confronting with this awesome jet fighter? The Iron Curtain has long since fallen, there really is no threat to our borders and even supporting international peace keeping efforts, do we need a high tech stealth fighter? The cost is too much for the reality of our needs. Anyone that says we need them to patrol our far North, not buying that argument. We could buy existing and quite serviceable fighter jets off the shelf right now for far less than this deal will cost. Priorities need to be re-examined here in a time when Canada's budget is higher than ever and the economic recovery is certainly not robust enough to justify this cost. Seniors, veterans, child care and health care in general would seem to me to be a higher priority.

John Daintree
said

Canada does NOT need these overly expensive aircraft. All America wants is Canadian dollars to help their disastrous economy. Let them whistle..

Brad M
said

This is unbelievable. This Media (CTV) seeks out a US expert on the cost estimates of one leaders platform but absolutely ignores the "promising the world" platform of another leader. Is this because the Conservatives are leading in the poles? Trying to make the race closer, are we?

BicthALot
said

(Winslow Wheeler) Who is this guy and why is he coming out with this in the middle of a political campaign (Liberal supporter maybe !)

getreal
said

Just because someone is an analyst doesn't mean they are an expert. I eat 3 meals a day so I am an expert in eating.

Wayne in HRM
said

We may be getting jets with no engines. Way to go Harper. lies lies and more Lies.

Rob Calgary
said

Do they have last years model, maybe a few demos laying around so the liberals actually thing they can save us some money.

Jeremy in Thunder Bay
said

I don't care how much they cost! We need them that's it. The Liberals can sent their son's and daughters in some old planes if they like. Our service men and women deserve the best and that's all we should care about.

Vincent
said

I love the Harper supporters comments. The Cons lied, so obviously it's the Liberals fault.

Norman1234
said

Its for the people of Canada to decide where our tax dollars are to spent. Frankly I don't want my share being used to buy jets that we don't need, just so a couple dozen military pilots can feel appreciated. They are appreciated, but we can we show them in a far more cost effective and realistic way. There is far more important areas where we can spend my (and your) money.

Dr. James Bradford
said

Now Iggy's academic friends in Washington up there in the Obama administration are chipping in to help Iggy's election campaign by getting some US wank to tell lies to help Iggy. See how dirty Liberal politics can get? Our military analysts have told us what the costs will be and we don't need the USA butting into our country's election campaign spreading deceit.

duff
said

how about looking into the rideau institute and the CDI group from Washington. Are the politically neutral? The CDI group is peace activist lobby group in Washington which is fine in itself but CTV should be clear on stating what this group stands for.It's like asking Greenpeace to make a statement about mining companies. Of course they are against it. The rideau group seems to be a union funded organization in Ottawa. Could they have reason to speak out against the conservatives? Maybe.. He might be 100% correct a news story should state the background of his organization.

gerald
said

Winslow Wheeler ? Never heard of the guy , but he should butt out of Canadian politics and do his analysing in Washington . Nice try Iggy...what a guy.

LeavingonaJetPlane
said

Canada needs these jets like they need a Ritz Carlton Hotel in the middle of the Alberta oilsands. It amazes me how so many people in Canada oppose the war in Afghanistan and in other places, yet defend outrageous spending on equipment the Country doesn't even need. Prove we NEED these figher jets? When was the last time any Country dropped a bomb on Canadian soil? As long as we're friend and allies with the United States, we have more than enough fighting power to settle any dispute no matter how big or small. And for the record, our Canadian military needs PEOPLE before we need to spend umpteen billions of dollars on fighter jets. And further, nobody cares about Canada. We're peacekeepers anyway, we don't bomb other Countries. Where does these looneytunes come from?

RCAF near MJ
said

And well worth it...or would you rather have us flying Chinese dustbins?

Rob, Calgary
said

It seems like the evidence, once again, is building against the CONservatives. These planes will not be as cheap as the they think they will be. What happened to being fiscally responsible and being a TRUE consevative, Mr. Harper? I ask you, can we wait to purchase these planes with a surplus or do we purchase now and put off families? Sounds like you would pick your business friends over families.

Proud Canadian
said

Brainwashed Conservatives: Please stop quoting the past - this is April 2011, let's talk about the future of this country - you sound like a bunch of sulky children - get over it, Harper eventually had to go down for the better of our country - it's pretty obvious - get your heads out of the sand.

duffman
said

This story reeks of liberal desperation

Don't forget Pentagon
said

For those people who attacked this us expert.... Look... He isn't only one who said that it will cost more than what Harper''ve been telling people. Pentagon (HQ of one of world's most powerful military) declared that it will cost more too....... Aha da..... Harper is wrong in this one period... He've been telling people wrong cost figure even he personally knew it.... He is out there still lying to us....I will take Pentagon word over harper or anyone....

prof curve ball
said

Dlaniger3.5 billion for 14 F-35's! Isn't that 250 million per plane? I thought Harper was talking about the planes costing 78 million ??

floyd McG
said

This issue here is not the jets themselves, but the constant lies and deception.

CDN
said

It should also be noted that should we not purchase these aircraft, our aerospace industry will likely not be allowed to participate in the building of thousands of these aircraft for other nations.As well as another said there are 3 different aircraft, a navy carrier version, and air force version and a marine vertical take off version. We are not purchasing the vertical take of versions which is likely the most expensive. i would be very interested for people who cite the american experience to cite which aircraft specifically they are talking about.

Dave Roberts
said

Well if the tories won't accept it's own Parliamentary Budget Officers claim that the jets will cost 130-150 million a jet (not 75) THEN GET THE SUPPLIER TO WEIGH IN.....seems fair and accurate. GO TO THE SOURCE FOR THE FACTS!!

mrbob_58
said

If you dont believe the price, why dont you look up the Congressional investgation on the F35. The US military will be paying 112 million per jet. The aircraft still has major problems with its enging and avionics. The cost overruns on this aircraft are at this point 50% over budget. 75 million was an oughtright lie. 140 million per jet is out of line.

Ron Watts
said

Lots of comments,,, that's good. Some are loony,some are right on. But are there any voters out there? Comments are good but go VOTE

Rob Western Canadian
said

If the liberals are elected they will cancel fighter contract , pay out a huge penalty like before and the purchase bi planes, hot air balloons, and a squadron of altalights. Nothing changes with these guys, they sure don't want a strong military.

Pat
said

Why do Conservative supporters keep saying the Liberals ordered these jets??! They only invested in Research and Development. Investing 200 million doesnt mean you should then spend upwards of 30 billion. I think lots of people have problems with big numbers. Its the equivalent of putting a non refundable 20 cent deposit on something that costs 30 dollars. Just because you put a non-refundable 20 cent deposit would you then buy the 30$ item even if you didnt end up wanting it??

Mrs. Robinson
said

Wow, what a nice altruistic American coming here to catch this tax burden of ours. History repeats itself, when the libs get in we can pay more for inferior aeroplanes when factoring in the extra cost of starting all over again. Wait there's more, to mimmick history, the libs will wait for numerous deaths from the old jet's failures. Just what Chretien did after the libs cancellation the helicoptor contract.

Bill in Calgary
said

Ok..who paid to have him fly in to Ottawa and make the speech?Secondly, the issue of an open bid process is a red herring. When the Liberals were last in power, they initiated the process to screen various options for replacing the CF-18's and settled on the F-35's. Now they want to scrap that option..and replace the CF-18's with what? With most of the other NATO countries buying into the f-35's it is idiotic for Canada to even consider backing out of the program. Heaven help this country if the Liberals ever get to power under MI!!

Laurie
said

This has the optics of Ignatieff calling in a favour from his buddies south of the border. Why would a US defense guy be on Parliment Hill when there is no sitting government? Frankly, I don't care what the new jets cost as long as they do the job, make our Air Force stronger and safer, and protect our sovereignty in areas like the Arctic.Stay the course Mr Prime Minister and hopefully the majority we all need shall be yours.

Shawn in Point Edward
said

One big thing I think a lot of people are missing, is that everything has a lifespan. Our current fighters are pretty old. I would like to know what it is costing to keep these planes in the air and how much is needed to upgrade key componets whenthey have to fight in a multinational theatre. Also, what will happen to the cost of parts when the US stops making them. I think if people really understood what is invovled in servicing aircraft, they might understand why we need new fighters sooner then later.It is a very simple fact...if you dont have a strong military you will have someone else's.Something else maybe the media could clarify. Are the projections by this expert based on the Canadian contract requiements or the US. Buying these fighters is not much different then buying a new car in the sense that you can pick your features. I guaruntee the two are not the same therefore will have a different cost at the end

Paul
said

Ok, maybe we can only buy half as many? In the late 70's, we had fighter bombers and interceptor.Maybe we have to do the samething this time.

little canadian
said

I believe the security of our nation is extremely important to all its citizen, but we don't have to sacrifice our integrity. I'm sure there are many options on the table as to how we can protect our skies.

MarkintO
said

(military expert)The F-35 will work great in cooperation with NATO allies in theatre, like Libya or Afghanistan. It's designed to communicate with other F-35's and share lots of battlefield tactical data. During the UN mission in the former Yugoslavia, CF-18's radios were jammed by ground forces. They are simply yesterday's tech and must be replaced, these procurements can take decades, delaying this purchase means we may not have any fighter aircraft at all. The F-35 is not 100% ideal in protecting Canada, but it will be 100% ideal for enforcing UN/Nato resolutions such as what we are doing now in Libya.

SL
said

It is interesting that MANY of the posters are mud-slinging at the messenger who does not bear good news. Everyone EXCEPT Conservative supporters believe the numbers that are being used by the Harper group. Just the fact that they DID NOT negotiate hard on the package tells me that it should be SCRAPPED before ANY penalties can be inserted into the contract.

T in the Bay
said

More dishonesty or just more inadequate fact checking? Either way, time for you to go Stephen!

Ben Hanhart
said

1. We need fighters, we don't want garbage.2. The AVRO Arrow has been dead for 50 years. It's time to move on.3. I have never seen an accurate cost estimate of large scale purchases of military equipment. I promise that no government, Conservative, Liberal etc. will get it right the first time.4. I believe we should be far more concerned with our own military's evaluation of these aircraft. If the professionals say it's the right plane, then we should get it.

Ted
said

Obviously not a good idea to write a blank cheque for these war planes with a price tag of 60 billion. Canada already has a 500 billion national debit, it cost tax payers 84 million per day in interest on our massive debit, why add 60 billion to it. In reality the US is the only country we have to worry about invading us & we would have to put up the white flag in minutes of combat or be crushed. The 65 war planes is no where near enough to defend ourselves against Russia or China's 2000 plus war planes so this is a total waste of money. I don't want Canada bombing any country, it will make us hated around the world & make us a target for terrorist attacks. We need to go back to the roll as a peace keeper not the US style war mongers.

Skitty
said

For the individual that suggested we build our own like the Saab Grippen, that plane is an out of date lightweight single engine plane useful for border patrols. The old F 18s are better. To keep up with our Nato allies, or eventually drop out, we need to combine resources with other countries. I do think there should be an open tender as a Eurojet / F35 contest would be subsidized by the US and French governments just as Boeing and Airbus bids are.

steve in wildrose country
said

@ Rational Guy. Actually Australia is committed buying 75 F35

Norm
said

Steph said "As I can see a lot of comments are out there against Harper, typical. As anyone ever took the time to look into the credibility of Winslow T. Wheeler?" I took your challenge and looked him up. Everything I read spoke highly of him and highlighted how he's worked for Democrats and Republicans. What's bad about a bipartisan expert?

Barry Wynn
said

Yes, I agree they are expensive to buy, but what if we are attacked by say Russia, then what without sophisticated jet fighters? We would lose the air war. What if those other Nordic countries decide to drop a few bombs on our land and north? The question is do we need only 65 or more to more than adequately protect our sovereignty.

Bob
said

Even if the jets are more, and if you go with the budget officers estimate (which he has often been wrong), it comes out to $1B a year for 30 years. Minus what we spend on current upkeep for the CF-18's and that really isn't much to provide our air force with proper equipment! And yes, big projects like this are usually sole sourced because there isn't 100 companies building Gen 5 fighters. It's either the F-35 or one developed by Russia and India. Not much choice there!!

JimL
said

Gotta agree with Howard n Brampton. Sweden is building great aircraft. Germany is building stealth subs. We buy WWII rustbucket subs that endager our servicemen and multibillion dollar aircraft still in development. Dief did destroy our aircraft skills in favour of US built Bomark missiles. How many chances do the Tories get to impregnate us again.

Martin
said

Now it all makes sense. We're buying airplanes without the engines. This way they can't fall out of the sky when their sole engine fails over the great Canadian Arctic.

If I was a pilot flying over the great wilderness that is our country, I would insist on having two engines because while the engine reliabity is good, it's not perfect, and sooner or later engines will fail.

Matt F Niagara
said

We need to ask our Armed Forces, do you need these planes? Will they make our personelle safer? If yes, I as a tax payer don't care about cost.

Jamie D
said

@Andrew wrote:"I'd like to hear the opinions of our Military and our pilots. What is it that they think is the best choice. If they think the F-35 is the way to go, who am I do disagree with the ones protecting us and our freedoms, no matter what the cost."Andrew, you really sound like a soldier with that last thing. So when an amphibious force lands in downtown Vancouver, you are advocating sending an F-35 to lay bombs on Burrard street? Really? That is a war crime you idiot. Try putting on your boots, picking up a 5.56 and get your ass on the line - and hope that the boots you are wearing are of a camo pattern that matches urban warfare. That is if there is any money left over after buying the fancy jets that will get eaten by an F-22 rapter in a heartbeat. F-22's are the top of the line. The F-35 is just an expensive JSF. Canada won't even be getting the stealth technology part, as it is not for export from the U.S. (You can't even export 128 bit encryption from the U.S. without first providing the NSA with back door keys). Canadians are all grown up. MAKE YOUR OWN AIRPLANES! That will be astronomical for the Aerospace industry, and we can give the Americans the spin off contracts if they help us fund the R&D for the fighter.

Michael
said

How much was this guy paid and how did he get involved in Canadian Politics, any Freind of you know who. I bet you cant guess< and the clue is this person spend a long time in the USA.Read between the lines.By the way the OECD says that CANADA will lead all the G7 in Economic Growth in the first half of 2011. Stephan Harper must be doing something for such a great evaluation.Continue the good work Mr. Harper.

TheOtherLowellInBC
said

Dave Sharp
said

My goodness to read all the comments here about contacts and costs one would think that all these contracts are written in stone. Helicopters, submarines, fighter aircraft and rifles all former victims of the Liberal party. Truth is the liberals don't like to help the military unless they are dressing them in bus drivers uniforms and cutting budgets for more important things such as Advertising Scams in Quebec. The hyper bullcrap espoused by Liberals and their supporters is just more extremism and pettiness, and in that, they excel slightly less than cutting the military budget.

Judy
said

certainly they are going up because every country wants some, anyone in business knows that if you sell lots, raise the price, people will still buy. the planes are a great purchase if we are to protect ourselves from other countries that are set on createing wars. come on people lets spend for the planes to protect us and why not, Iggy, Layton are spending like crazy and making promises that are going to cost us billions also, so why the fuss over spending to protect the country.

Ken
said

Turkey and Britain have threatened to cancel their order because The United States refuses to release the remote flight codes with the sale of the F35. This essentially allows the US military to remotely control these aircraft from anywhere in the world once they are in the air. This is like purchasing a car and having the dealer taking over control of the vehicle while you are driving down the highway. You would feel as though you don't really own it.

markh
said

@ don.h

Increase taxes on corporations and the rich. Boom, problem solved.

Salt and Vinegar
said

Winslow Wheeler works for the CDI, an independent group that, well, actually ..... knows nothing. Where is his financial analysis? I assume he has some secret insider information with the plane manufacturer? The media is not asking the hard questions to verify credibility. This article smells of Liberal propaganda.

Jack R
said

What happened to building jets in Canada? Why are we so eager to buy off the shelf American military equipment. Stealth is not what we need. We need an all weather attack fighter with ground capabilities. Canadian defence contractors should be building planes here. Creating jobs. Not enriching the Americans. Gone are the days of Arrow, but they don't have to be.

Dlaniger
said

Rational Guy said ``Australia is purchasing brand new F-18's (Super Hornets) .... which should last them for the next thirty years. Either the Australians are stupid or Stephen Harper is. My money is on the Aussies." It appears that it is neither the Aussies nor Stephen Harper who is stupid. The Aussies bought the Super Hornet as stop gap between their aging F-18 fleet and their planned purchase of the F-35. They have already paid 3.5 billion for 14 F-35s and are considering buying 70 more. My money is certainly not on Rational Guy.

Ken
said

Now the USA state cost estimates DOUBLED and of course Harper and Baird deny this ... who are you going to believe the seller saying cost will be double or Harper and Baird saying no, no we got a contract with a cost estimate. Canadian taxpayers in the end pay for it. Again, I ask you who do you believe the US saying the cost estimate doubles or Harper and Baird denying it? Harper is spending money like a drunken sailor! I'm a retired disabled veteran and I will no longer support Harper's government!

Dont belive everything you hear/read
said

So I read this article and decided to check out this expert. Here is one of his most recent comments on the F35 fighter: "The F-35 is, in fact, considerably less maneuverable than the appallingly vulnerable F-105 "Lead Sled," a fighter that proved helpless in dogfights against MiGs over North Vietnam." Compare that to what Jon Beesley says about the F35, and by the way who has been a USAF test polot since the 1979..."a fully loaded F35 handles like an unloaded F16"....HIGH Praise!So can we trust this expert at all?

ROC in TO
said

CORRECTIONWhy do we not build them here? It's NOT like completely new technology needs to be developed.

Abiding Citizen
said

Looks like Ignatieff called in some markers so that he can get his USA pals to say what he wants them to say. Sad.

Rob O
said

It seems that Iggy has to go to his friends down in the states to help him with this election. People should also remember the cancelling of the EH-101 and the fine we had to pay when Jean cancelled that project. But then the Liberals don't care, because we the taxpayer will be on the hook for this too.

Vandale
said

As Canadian I want the government that do the best job as possible for the people of Canada, the last election we chose Cons Party to be our government and we did Scrapt the Liberal be cause they worked for their party and their buddy gave our hard earn tax money to their gang. At the present time let trust the party we elected to be our government , let them do their job, if they can't do the best job than Liberal did for us, then we will kick them our.Our millitary need an up date and this is a plan for 30 years remember that, I am sure we are general public not an expert in millitary hardwares and the peoples in charge for the plan to purchase F35 jet know what they are doing after all they are tax payer too.
Finally let give Conservative a majority government so they can do the job of a government is leading our country not following the others demand.If the Conservety can't do best job we will scrapt them ..

Jamie D
said

Even if these were flying volkswagons, they would stll spin off contracts for maintenance and the like in the Aerospace industry. The industry is doing well with the CF-18 contracts now, how is the F-35 going to be giving better contracts? Is it because ALL the parts in an F-35 are more expensive, and so the Kevin page estimate is correct?Lets see some facts and figures. No more vocal responses. The rubber has hit the road. If this isn't a big coverup, then it should be easy to disclose documents. But in this case the government went so far as to be found in contempt for hiding the details.

Hmmmm....this is so obvious I wonder why people are still stuck on this plane. Did they play Battlefield 2 too many times?BTW: The F-35 is already obselete, and compared to the F-22, the F-35 is garbage. Most modern technologically advanced air forces rely on UAV technology for patrol/surveilance. Even the LAPD uses UAV's now. Canada is so third world when it comes to the calibre of it's policitians.

ROC in TO
said

Why do we not build them here? It's like completely new technology needs to be developed.

50 Years Old @ $15 / Hr no benefits
said

Can I get a job at $15/Hr benefits to clean the jets? I would love to participate in Mr. Harper's Actions. I may be deployed to oil rich countries for a business trip. The jets get dirty easily in the desert and oily climate.

gwculverson
said

Even Harper's most ardent supporters must wonder when EVERYBODY (none of whom have a stake in the answer) who are asked to look at the cost estimates for the new F-18's reports that it cannot be possible for Canada to acquire them for a total cost of $75 million and that the real cost will be materially greater. Why defend the indefensible? Admit the error and, if the government still wants to buy them, proceed with all the political consequences, good and/or bad that flow from the decision.

Andrew NB
said

I'd like to hear the opinions of our Military and our pilots. What is it that they think is the best choice. If they think the F-35 is the way to go, who am I do disagree with the ones protecting us and our freedoms, no matter what the cost.

don.h
said

QUESTION. if the liberals scrap the f 35s, and put out bids for new fighter jets, could they please expain to me where is the ( lets say 6 billion) money going to come from to pay for them, since they already said that they are already going to spend the 9 billion on the table for daycares and education. new taxes anyone.

Steph
said

As I can see a lot of comments are out there against Harper, typical. As anyone ever took the time to look into the credibility of Winslow T. Wheeler? Well I did folks and if you look at is backgound you will notice that he is an elitist who adjust his stories/theories/analysis to accomodate whoever is in power or wants to be in power. Truly a lot of flip flopping. Remind you of anyone?

RC
said

Where are our military experts? Maybe instead of the U.S. Expert the media should pursue some Canadian expert opinion on this matter. It seems to me that you can pay and American "expert" to say anything ( see the US Justice system) so why would this man be believed outright?

Howard n Brampton
said

How it it that a country such as Sweden, with a population of 9 million and fewer natural resources than Canada, develop and build a terrific multi-role fighter like the Saab JAS 39 Gripen, and Canada can't? Or should that be, won't? As a Canadian, I'm getting mighty tired of our country being incapable of keeping up with a country like Sweden when it comes to technological prowess, and the will to make things that are in their national interest, happen. Collectively, we should all feel ashamed! Perhaps, if that old Conservative stalwart, Diefenbaker had not only killed the Avro Arrow, but also destroyed the technology that my parents tax dollars paid for, we wouldn't be having this issue before us now.

NoContest
said

Why is there any ambiguity around price...It is 75 million or it`s not 75 million. What does the contract say? There`s no reason for something to be sold through a legally binding contract at a certain price and then double overnight. If it doubles then or even increases the stakeholders should do jail time. It would be in essence, fraud.

DC
said

a real and true cost of the jets needs to be given. If they are as out of line as the expect states then lets look at reasonable viable alternatives. But lets get on with it. Our Air Force needs something new soon before the current jets start dropping out of the sky. As for those of you that think Canada doesn't need jet fighters you're sadly mistaken.

Wendy Smith
said

Each jet could pay for a bachelor degree for approx 2,000. students; not including the cost of support for the planes. For 65 planes, that's 130,000. Canadians who could have a free bachelor degree.

macgregor17
said

we should double the amount of F 35s build two super carriers like the Brits and add a dozen more superglobe trotters to the the military, that would just start to take us off the most cheapest military in the world list.

Marc Emery
said

Of course we should be scrapping this deal!
Are people on this board not seeing how Harper blatantly (and deceivingly) lied about the costs?
If I tell someone my house costs $500 000 I don't ask them for $1million at the last minute.
Outrageous.

Rational Guy
said

Australia is purchasing brand new F-18's (Super Hornets) with completely new avionics, new TWIN engines (of a new design) which should last them for the next thirty years. The price per plane is half of the Tory estimate and a quarter of Kevin Page's (truthful) estimate. Either the Australians are stupid or Stephen Harper is. My money is on the Aussies.

Chris
said

I'm a pretty simple voter.

Step 1: Tell me why I need fancy new jets.

Step 2: Tell me how much they'll cost.

If I believe step one to be valid and your costs to be trustworthy, I'll still vote for you.

M2
said

Conservatives want closer ties with US and a stronger Canadian military. The two should be mutually exclusive, because it's pointless to have both. Either Canada becomes LESS dependent on US (doubt it) and builds up its military, or Canada becomes MORE dependent on US (what Conservatives try to do at any chance) and assumes US' protection.

Kevin Belusa
said

Chinese jets? Russian Jets?
That would be like the Trojans buying swords from the invading Greeks. Never mind the fact that Russian has long been known to sell inferior military products and keep the best military equipment for itself. I suspect the Chinese would do the same.

I say buy the jets. We have so few fighters over so much territory, our pilots need every possible advantage as any invading force is likely to be superior numerically.
I just wish the Avro program was still active and we could buy Canadian. But let�s not forget it was similar financial arguments as I have read posted here during a similar tough financial time in CDN history that killed the most advanced jet fighter at the time.

Just a thought...
said

If we stayed out of other countries domestic disputes we probably wouldn't need these in the first place. Most of the people our military is helping don't seem to want us there anyway.

JCP
said

The Centre for Defense Information is a hard left think tank on par with Project Plowshares that wants to scrap any new weapons system.

Yes, we need solid numbers for this project, but we're not going to get real accuracy from a left-biased group any more than we'll get it from a right biased-group.

Steve O
said

Harper in another lie, when will the cheer leading stop for the right? How many more lies need to be exposed before these right wing cheer leaders admit Harper is a liar & can't be trusted. Kevin Page already told Canadians that Harper was way off on the blank cheque he wants to write to the Americans for these war planes. Harper deserves zero support from Canadians. The Americans are hated around the world because of their war mongering ways. Thousands of innocent people kill in every country they have invaded. Canadians don't want the same reputation.

Stu
said

I'm also one to wonder where this man seemed to pop up from and who flipped the bill for his announcement. It's like a paid witness in a court case, holding little merit.As a strong conservative, I would like to know more of the specialist making these F-35 cost claims.LIBERALS have 550 million invested in F-35 already with international coalition development investments. So basically, we'd be out of luck and it's just a half billion going to the USA for free.Remember, the only source building these planes is the current contract. There is no second option. If there is, please make a suggestion so we can see some truth to the complaints.I WOULD be interested in manufacturing our own plane or looking into converting the newest Russian stealth fighter (which is quite cost effective) to accommodate our Forces.

Dave
said

Yes, let scrap the jets. We can give are military sharp stick to defend us! I don�t care what the costs are my children�s freedom is worth it! Let not forget the money the liberals stole from this country!

Ali Mir
said

For that kind of money there are many other options; though the f35 is the most superior jet on the market, we could have up-and- coming Chinese made jets (4 or 5 for the 145 million we are paying for one jet to the US company) or even Russian made fighters. In a recession, just like the average Canadian buying no-name brand foods to cut grocery costs, our government should also be budget concious. Nevermind the fact that with that amount of money (over 40 billion) we could have started our own Canadian brand of fighter jets through Bombardier or the revitalization of the Avro. This horendous deal must have some leaks that drain back into prime minister Harper's off-shore personal accounts...hint hint nudge nudge. Anybody remember Schriber? Mulroney?

Steve
said

Its funny how Conservative posters can get so outraged when facts are reported that they don't like. The guy is a defence analyst who has worked in the field for 30 years. He would know what he is talking about. We Canadians have the right to be informed from the source we are buying this equipment from not just the "estimates" (lies) from our government in Ottawa.

Andy Kanata
said

A contract of the size needed to purchase the jets will never be right on cost. Anyone in any business knows that the initial costs are estimates and are seldom anywhere near the mark. Does anyone remember the cost of the Gun Registry? Costed at 2 million and deemed to be revenue neutral came in at over 2 billion. Does anyone seriously believe that cancelling the contract and putting it out to tender will produce numbers that are any more believable than what we are hearing now? Never.

greg from the prarie
said

Why don't we compare apples to apples. The cons estimates were over 20 years. The report was then based over a 30 year period. Older aircraft like anything else needs more maintenance with age. As far as the tender?? There is nothing else on the market that is comparable. Liberals are not military supporters. Think back decades to the unification and closing of bases across canada, Chretien and the scrapping of the deal on military helicopters. Lets not make Canada a flying museum!

Matt from the Wet Coast
said

The only real solution is to build the Avro Arrow!

David
said

Keep in mind this is a political move. If the U.S. has changed the agree cooporate price for all countries participating, then they need to be challenged on a business basis; the U.S. needs to know they are not allowed to use Canada for balancing their books. With Ignatieff, being an American, promising all the billions of spending, we will be in eternal deficit, higher taxes and may as well decommision the millitary and, become the 53rd state or at least a step closer.

danR
said

Fiscal conservatives. Can't trust them. The next Government (hopefully not the spendthrift 'Government of Harper') should contract with Bombardier, et al, to design and produce leading-edge robotic, remote, and semi-autonomous airframes and solutions, keep the cash as much as possible in Canada, and stop buying 20th century spear and arrows from U.S. military-industrial complex con-artist salesmen.

Jarrett, ottawa
said

Would you rather have social spending or extravagant new toys? Not to mention it will cost twice what we were told it would.

Joan
said

And who actual is this guy, where did he come from and who paid his fee to show up with this little tidbit (conviently right in the middle of the election).

Damon
said

What would a US defense analyst possibly know about the cost of jets that they designed? Clearly Harper and the Conservatives know a lot more about costing jets. Just more Liberal spin from the US defense department (sarcasm off).

Zebulon Pike
said

Maybe it would be best to abandon fighters altogether. The F-35s, while capable, are simply too costly. Even alternatives like the F/A-18E/F, Rafale, Eurofighter or Gripen are pricey. Yet the RCAF (yes, I call it that) could use more C-17s and C-130Js to transport troops and cargo around the world for combat and humanitarian missions. Other countries can pick up the slack on fighters.

Gio in Alberta
said

1. Why are we talking to Americans about a Canadian issue?2. There are three variants to the F-35: A, B and C. Each with a different price tag. Not one mention of that little detail in the media. They also replace as many as 4 different jets: F-16, A-10, F-18 and the Harrier.3. Every major NATO country is replacing their aging fighters with F-35's because they are also the cheapest to purchase in large quantities over other aircraft such as the F-18.4. This is a good choice for the future of our military. Our military has suffered from cutbacks for far too long.

Fred N Ont
said

What a confusion created by the Liberals saying they will have lots of money canceling the jets they initially ordered to pay for their social promises.The jet cost is over 30 years that's 1 bill per year no where near what the Libs say.And the tax on business will loose jobs causing a false calculation there.

Andrew
said

Maybe the Conservative Party will make up any difference between budgetted amounts, and actual costs.

That would fix estimation errors, quickly.

eddieo714
said

This is yet another example of Mr. Harper leading through belief instead of logic. He - and yes, as our government has been rebranded his government I will use "he" - has brought our country into deficit spending, exploits instead of protects the environment and reduced our standing among nations.

A vote for the Conservatives is a vote for a weaker more dysfunctional Canada.

Rod
said

This is another example of how the Canadian government is selling off our jobs south of the border. About a year ago Defence Minister Mackay sent a billion dollar deal south of the border to make militiary trucks for Canadian forces, while at the same time putting a final nail in the coffin at the GM truck plant in Oshawa which could have been used to produce these kinds of vehicles that has been shut down (with many folks layed off) and is being dismantled. The Conservative government should be ashamed!

Americanization
said

How the Harper regime can dare complain about any of the oppositions spending promises in this election is beyond bizarro world for me?! LOL!, wile in the very same breath they are spending MEGA BILLIONS on a flying credit card to make their American buddies happy?!. "Does Canada spend enough on defense?" No BUT we should be spending/buying based on Canada's needs NOT the Americans. Canada does not need a FIRST-STRIKE WARMONGERS F-35, it needs a long-range interceptor. Their are options out their MUCH newer then our CF-18 for BILLIONS LESS.

Scott
said

great, so Harper is the only one in the world that believes his own cost predictions for the F35? Have an open competetion or hold off on buying these things, right now this is not good for Canada, we need to spend wisely on military equiptment.

Dave Sharp
said

Since when in this country has the purchase of fighter aircraft NOT been a contentious issue? More hot air has been generated over these aircraft by the opposition parties than the aircraft themselves could ever hope to duplicate.

Stouffvillian
said

I agree with the liberals, let's scrap this deal. Then after having already thrown away hundreds of millions, we can start the process to buy different jets that will eventually cost double once again.

susanW in Calgary
said

The Parlimentary Budget Officer and this so called expert must be reading the same documents (probably provided by the Liberals). I believe Harper on this one. How can two independent, objective, non-partisan people be right?? Steady as she goes Mr. Harper. Tell the people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.

Dwayne from da peg
said

So who paid for this gentlemans opinion?? My guess is he didn't make a trip to Ottawa out of extreme concern for the Canadian tax payer. And how does one go about figuring out the cost of a plane? If I was buying a car and was quoted a price, I would expect the price at time of purchase would still be in the ballpark. I wonder if this guy speculates on world oil prices? They are about double of what they really sould be. Curious

J.C.
said

Why is this man interfering in Canadian politics. Is he a friend of Mr. Ignatieffs? To me what is important in the purchase of aircraft for our military is what is best for them. They should have the best equipment available!!! They put their lives on the line for us. they should have every opportunity to be as safe as possible when doing their jobs!! I would also like to know how much the Liberals have spent over the years toward the research involved for the F35's. I bet that has been a pretty penny yet it seems to be ignored by the media. I want to know how much money would be wasted from that if the F35's are not purchased.

John, Halifax, NS
said

"Wheeler worked for three decades on security issues for the U.S. General Accounting Office and members of the U.S. Senate."Before the paid CPC posters get here to slander another public figure coming out with real information, please read the above statement from the article. 30 years in the industry beats any CPC chump we've got in Ottawa. The CPC really need to go, this is OUR money here....god help Canada if Harper wins.

liberaltoronto
said

really? I never trust some of these people, the Pentagon had agreed with the government

Matt in NB
said

More lies from our sweater wearing leader! Do the CON's really expect us to believe their lies about how they waste our tax dollars.

David
said

Well,well,well. Is there anything can be believed from the Harper people? This person has nothing to gain or lose so we should believe him.

What's wrong with Canada
said

Let me understand this....the budget officer is right (as he has been on everything else) and Stephen Harper is wrong (likewise). Well, the obvious solution is to attack the budget officer. This almost trumps Harper using the RCMP like Gestapo agents because his staff had investigated every attendee at a rally to the point of reviewing their facebook page. The "crime" of the two expelled?..... being in a picture with Michael Ignatieff. Beyond bizarre.

Ivan
said

The Cons. are never anywhere near their estimates. Who in the right mind believes their numbers for these planes? This is all about pumping money into the US economy. Money that would be better spent in Canada.