Judicial council reviews judge's sex assault remark

A Manitoba judge is under fire for giving a convicted rapist a lenient sentence because he felt the victim's clothing implied consent. CTV's Manitoba bureau chief explains.

CTV Winnipeg: Jillian Taylor on the protest

The Canadian Judicial Council will be reviewing the comments of a Manitoba judge who suggested a woman's clothing and attitude may have contributed to her being raped.

CTV News Channel: Joanna Birenbaum, LEAF

The director of litigation for the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund says Queen's Bench Court Justice Robert Dewar's remarks send a message across Canada that women are to blame for the sexual assaults perpetrated against them.

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A protester is shown outside the Manitoba Law Courts in Winnipeg, Friday, Feb. 25, 2011.

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Date: Fri. Feb. 25 2011 9:23 PM ET

The Canadian Judicial Council will be reviewing the comments of a Manitoba judge who suggested a woman's clothing and attitude may have contributed to her being sexually assaulted.

Queen's Bench Court Justice Robert Dewar made the comments Wednesday during a sentencing hearing. He handed a man a two-year conditional sentence instead of a jail term, which the prosecution had sought..

"There have been numerous media reports and public reaction to these comments," the council said in a news release Friday. "Council takes the review of all complaints seriously."

A few dozen people braved the cold in Winnipeg Friday to protest the remarks, carrying signs and chanting slogans.

Lorraine Parrington, who co-ordinates a sexual assault crisis program in Winnipeg, said the judge's remarks show that there needs to be more education about the treatment of sexual assault victims.

"This should never have happened in a courtroom," Parrington said.

"Here we have this woman who's been victimized and what we're focusing on is her behaviour, and it isn't what caused it."

Some protesters called for Dewar to be removed from his position, while most wanted an apology.

The case

The sentence was much lighter than the three years in prison the Crown had requested for Kenneth Rhodes. He had been convicted of sexual assault for an incident that happened five years ago outside of Thompson, Man.

Dewar called Rhodes a "clumsy Don Juan" and said "sex was in the air" on the night the sex assault occurred. He also noted that the victim and her girlfriend were wearing tube tops without bras, high heels and lots of makeup.

"This is a different case than one where there is no perceived invitation," said Dewar. "This is a case of misunderstood signals and inconsiderate behaviour."

The 26-year-old victim, whose identity is protected, has criticized the comments and said they represent an extreme form of sexism, and that no woman invites sexual assault.

Karen Busby, a law professor at the University of Manitoba, suggested the comments blame the victim while partially exonerating her attacker.

"That goes back to suggesting that women are in a state of constant sexual readiness and that sexually active women will consent to sex with all comers," Busby said.

"We've got a victim who five years after the assault ... says she's still afraid to leave her home... It's inappropriate."

In 2006 Rhodes and a friend had met the victim and her friend outside a bar in what the judge called "inviting circumstances."

Later that night Rhodes forced the victim to have sex with him in the woods alongside a highway.

Rhodes pleaded not guilty during his trial and argued that he believed there was consent.

The judge rejected the suggestion that the victim had consented, but said he would consider some of Rhodes' points in sentencing.

The Crown has ordered a transcript of the sentencing hearing, but said it has not decided whether it will file an appeal.

In a separate incident just over a week earlier, a Toronto police officer found himself in hot water for suggesting that young women could avoid being sexually assaulted by not dressing like "sluts."

The officer made the comments during a campus safety meeting on Jan. 24 at York University. The officer reportedly sent a letter of apology after the meeting and was internally disciplined by the Toronto Police Service.

Busby said both sets of comments point to the fact there is a lingering, outdated notion among some that a sexual invitation could be implied, even when it isn't verbalized.

Comments are now closed for this story

HY in Ottawa
said

TJ, I would like to see 100% of us men walk away when a woman says no, not 99% of us men. I really think castration is a valid and a reasonable punishment for the rapists (unwanted penile insertion). A lot of research reports indicate that the rapists cannot easily be rehabilitated. (yes, it's a vague statement).

A woman
said

the fact that is continually overlooked in these cases is that rape is an act of VIOLENCE, not of SEX. It's as simple as that.

Double standards
said

Many of these self righteous and stoked indignant comments seem to come with a trailer at the end which viciously attack this Judge with over the top comments. If you want to be taken seriously then moderate and balance your comments otherwise you discredit yourself through your ugly comments which are no better than the ones you are complaining about.

Eric
said

We as a society,driven by popular trends and tv shows and movies ,etc. have allowed it to become ,for the most part,acceptable in the eyes of the general public,for women to dress as they do now.That's hardly the fault of any of them individually.The analogy's of putting on a bear suit during hunting season and waving you're money around in a bad neighborhood at night are not valid or applicable in this instance.It's ridiuculous to sum up this issue with an absolutely ludacrous anaolgy such as these.No one dressed liek this 50 years ago but there was still clothing and looks that pushed the envelope at that time and im pretty sure we've decided women deserve to be treated better ,as they should be.Listen to what they say,not what theyre wearing.

blucas
said

Each individual is responsible for their own actions. Sounds to me like the judge has an issue with women in general. No means no, regardless of how a woman is dressed. No wonder so many woman do not come forward when abuse happens. This is very very sad.
I suppose if the victim was the judges daughter the outcome would be quite different.
This man should be removed from office.

Al G
said

I think that anyone who is trusted and sworn in to public service should be held to a stricter set of guidelines . This judge is another example of misused or power in the wrong hands , this man obviously should not hold the power he does. Politicans ,Judges ,police officers who abuse their public influence should be penalized times two ,misuse the influence and be fined ,jailed or penalized times two

Brenda from Sudbury
said

The way a woman chooses to dress or how much makeup she wears is not an invitation to be raped. No means no!The fact that the judge will be reviewed by a judicial council is laughable. Nothing will come of such an investigation, and once again the woman is victimized. The old adage that "clothes make the man", apparently doesn't apply to women. This judge thinks that clothes make a woman a target of rape and I'm shocked that so many commenters agree with him.

Ethan Leduc
said

"Aside from the ability to walk upright and order food off a menu, humans are no different than dogs."You're right, and I remind women of this every chance I get.But you're missing something important here - when a dog become a danger to others, we don't put it under house arrest, we take it out back and put a bullet through its skull.

firstMickey
said

No means No. Lots of women go around looking like sluts. But No means No.

Edwin Spence
said

This judge is an enabler in his actions. I can't say one way or the other if the man deserved more than the sentence he was given but to hand that sentence down based on the reasons given, the judge should be removed from his position. No circumstance grants a man the right to maul or abuse a woman in a sexual way or in any way. Hit on, flirt with or entice but without consent to touch in any way is profane and criminal. The Judge is a disgrace to men.

TJ
said

I don't care if she was standing there naked - if she didn't want to have sex, then he should have walked away. Gentleman -put yourself in the situation. If you're putting the moves on a woman and she says no, but is wearing a short dress, do you force her? i would like to think that 99% of you call her a tease BUT they still WALK AWAY.

taxpaying sucker Moore
said

In answer to Haly..."What is Canada coming too"!This thought process has been around since I can remember and has not evolved much! What is really interesting is to read the comments and note that most male comments agree with the judge. Most are quick to say that women should dress "appropriately"! (In who's eyes?) Not one male expressed the opinion that tho the human race has animalistic instincts what separates us from animals is the ability to make choices! We reap what we sow. She is traumatized and he has a sexual criminal record! Who will learn from this?

Monique
said

Dapper Darren writes:"No rape here, I agree with the Judge and the Cop.When will women ever learn, play the part and it's an open invitation. Case CLOSED."---------------So, if you ever leave the keys in your car to warm it up, I should consider it an open invitation to steal your car?Or when you carry your wallet in your back pocket, ready to fall out, should I grab it because it's staring me in the face?Your open invitation policy requires a lack of morals and responsibility. I wouldn't steal from you even if I saw that you had turned your back to your wallet and I saw it bulging with money, no matter how enticing it was and how much I would love to have the money. That's because I believe in personal responsibility and can only imagine the impact that it would have on you. Can you imagine the impact of being dragged out the woods and being raped would have on you? Your comment actually scares me.

Pip
said

I find it sickening that so many posting here are supplying excuses for the rapist. I find it equally sickening that so many support the judge, whose judgement was, I believe, at fault, and whose comments go beyond the pale.

Doug in BC
said

Men, do we need to be kept in cages? Surely to goodness you must realize that if a women was standing beside you naked it doesn't mean you rape her. Women are not there for your "use." It is time for all men to join the civilized world. We left the jungle years ago.

Alexandria
said

High Heels makeup and a tube top!! Oh my God lay down and let the guy have his way with you. Just imagine Tube top, no bra,make up and high heels. Dose the Judge think every woman dressed this way is a whore looking to have sex.He must be a dirty mined old geezer. Fire him apparently he can not be open minded and unable to not prejudge a person. It does not mean anything what a woman is wearing it is the male who cannot control him self.

Natalie
said

Is he mad?!! SHe could have walked naked in front of him, that does not mean she wanted the assault. No means NO! The man should be controlled enough to back off if she says no. Tired of men behaving as though they can;t control their urges, they are not ANIMALS for crying out loud. This is very irresponsible of the Judge and he should be disciplined.

Ginette
said

CASE CLOSED leave it alone.

Lizzie
said

I cannot believe that people are actually suggesting that this woman's wardrobe had ANYTHING to do with this despicable act...Rape is an act of violence that has nothing to do with sex, it is about power and control. There is a reason victims of sexual crimes sometimes hesitate to report them and the reason is jackholes like this judge.

Mike
said

No one deserves to be raped. Or beaten up. Or murdered. Or robbed.But if I walked through downtown Winnipeg wearing gang colours and flaunting cash.... I don't really have to question what would happen to me.One final question: in a case like this where the man says she consented and the woman says she didn't.... why do we always believe the woman?

Been There
said

To all the people that agree with the Judge...wait until this happens to YOUR daughter. Next you'll say that parents must be inviting rapists to attack their children because of the way they dress. Bottom line, no means no, even if it's in the middle of the act, end of story.

Terry. C
said

This judge should be removed right away. What planet is he from anyways. Yes there are many girls in societyb that dress very hot and sexy. Just look at facebook and high schools , girl showing off everything. But men must realize its no reason to force your self on a woman who says no. Dont get me wrong i love the view of these girls to but know its okay to look but dont touch

Stan Dawson
said

Today I wore pork chop earrings to work and was attacked by a Doberman. Is it the dogs fault for being a dog or is it my fault for being an idiot? Kudos to the only sane judge working in

Liz
said

What year is this and where are we? Some of the comments on here are pathetic!

Chris
said

I think a lot of people in these comments are projecting and making a lot of assumptions.

The guy said he thought it was consensual. Maybe he honestly did think it was welcome. There's no violence reported here, just a guy being sexually inappropriate.

Yes, he's a rapist but I think what the judge is saying is that if you leave meat in a camp, don't be surprised when bears raid your tent.

Dapper Darren
said

No rape here, I agree with the Judge and the Cop.When will women ever learn, play the part and it's an open invitation. Case CLOSED.

What's the difference?
said

A person has every right to pull out their wallet and count their cash on the street in a bad neighbourhood at night. There is nothing wrong with this but they could be robbed. There would be nothing wrong with a judge calling the person careless for flaunting their cash in such way.
What's the difference? PC nonsense rules again.

Blind by choice
said

"The judge did not say the woman "deserved" to be raped when they dress like scanks - he said her clothing and behavior helped EXPLAIN THE EVENTS that happened.".....and the feministas jumped on the bandwagon and now want to lynch this judge who was right in what he said ........her manner of dress AND BEHAVIOUR helped to explain the events. In other words there was a responsibility on her part for dressing like a tart which was mistaken by this bozo as an invitation to sex. Had her behaviour and dress being different would she have been raped by this man? Probably not. If you people can't see that then no point debating the issue.

Reality_Check
said

The judge is clearly deranged. His comments aside, it also concerns me that he's not self aware enough to realize the sh*t storm that his remarks (or reduced sentancing) would unleash.

There's no way that the way a woman was dressed should be a mitigating factor when it comes to sentancing rapists.

However, do woman put themselves at increased risk of being sexually assaulted by dressing provocatively to the extreme? Yes.

No, that doesn't mean that they are "asking for it" or that they "deserve it". It just means that they are putting themselves at greater risk by doing it.

Allan84
said

The term 'rights' and the term 'power' are two different things but it seems many assume they are the same these days. The girl had the right to wear whatever she wanted and she also had the right to not have sex with anyone she did not want to. But despite having the rights, her and all people these days must remember that they may find themselves in a situation where they don't have the power to stop things from happening. Be careful to avoid situations where your rights cannot be defended.

AngryWes
said

Was it wrong that a rape was commited? Yes. Do I believe that the women share some blame? Yes. Life is about midagating risk. Would they have had a less likely chance of being raped if the were not dress seductivly? Yes. The wonderful thing about this country is you have the freedom to chose. If I walked around town with $10,000 cash in my pocket and was telling everyone I was doing it, I'd bet by the end of the night I get robbed. If you increace your chance of something bad happening to you. You should foot some of the blame when it happens.

Jason
said

I agree with this Judge.Some are thinking it's a injustice to sexual assault and rape victims, however lets be realistic .... Some women tend to overuse their rights as a women when they get mad and cry wolf. No offence, but equal rights is what was asked for ..and yet still today women can use these rights in various ways to destroy a man's life. Rape is not right in anyway, women need to think about how they dress ..... there's dressing like a lady and then there's dressing like a skank which leads to problems ....It's a tough case, the Judge is right on this one.

taxpaying sucker Moore
said

Sometimes I am so disilusioned about the evolution of women in 2011.It is common sense fact that women/children are told over and over do not get in the car with strangers or those you do not know well!The circumstance around this poor womans being in that car and being transported certainly has a cause and effect action by the poor choices she made. Nevertheless, no does mean no! Sadly to say no means nothing to some men even given any dress code circumstances or other circumstances.I am happy this man gets a recorded for his actions. I hope he remembers that all of the rest of his life!

Haly
said

Even if a woman is walking on the streets wearing nothing, it does not give any one the right to assume she is looking for sex, or inviting for rape. Holy sardines, based on what we have read, I am amazed we are not being told by the police and courts that we should veil ourselves from head to toes. What is going wrong with our Canadian society?

Jonny
said

I think people are confusing wearing provocative clothing increasing the risk of attracting unwanted attention from would-be "rapers" and blaming a woman for getting raped because of what she is wearing.I don't think anyone is on the side of "look at what she is wearing, she was asking for it". There are just some bad people out there that gaining attention from is a bad idea. And wearing sexy clothing is a great way to draw attention to yourself.

deb in alberta
said

if how a woman is clothed can dictate unwanted sexual advances or deviant behavior and how do you draw the line (or hem) at what is too provocative and who decides? Is a glimpse of a belly button okay or how much lace of a bra or bare cleavage flaunts 'unwanted' advances? Is the skirt too short if the panties show? I dare say that any skirt length invites the speculative imagination of men to ponder what's under that skirt, the type of panties, the color, or if she's even wearing any. Striking eyes, or lips, a pretty face on a woman dressed as a nun could invite the same speculation if a man's mind chooses to wander in that direction, but when he chooses to act on his own porn movie playing in his head, no amount, or lack of clothing,will deter him from fulfilling HIS PERSONAL fantasy. At that point, the exclaimed "NO", just means he changes his scriptwriting to infer that she would prefer it rough.
You do realize that when woman first started wearing slacks, MEN found the sight of their backside curves very provocative. Some women were raped because they had the audacity to dress like a man, were therefore asking for it and needed to be 'put' in their place. If clothing is used as a defense for criminal behavior then that sweet little innocent 8 year old is just as at fault for looking so adorable in pink pinafore and matching hair ribbon because molesters won't be able to resist - and NOBODY THINKS THAT'S A FAIR TRUTH. Rape is merely a weapon of violence visited on toddlers to seniors, males or females, by males or females. And please, too much make-up; clowns & actors everywhere take note!!

Nolan
said

while dressing like that will make some men think she's open for opportunity, 'NO MEANS NO'! Two wrongs dont make a right. We need to encourage young women to dress less seductively to ensure that some "PIGS" dont think the wrong things.

Nicky
said

I cannot believe that an educated person would make such a derogatory comment. That sexist judge was basically saying "the way a woman dresses is an automatic consent for some pervert to force himself on her . I view this line of reasoning as a perfect example of patriarchal oppression. The idea that a woman cannot chose to dress herself in any manner she chooses due to the fear of being raped is ludicrous and quite sad. these men need to learn the art of control and society on a whole needs to take rape more seriously and cease blaming the victim.

UFIJUNKIE
said

Well, if we want to go just by looks and the way we dress to make assumptions....this judge looks like a pedifile, with his stupid mustash, dumb glasses, and creepy smerk....the RCMP should investigate his background just for those reasons...you-know everyone who wears a bad suit is up to no good! Mabey his comments reflect on how he was treated by a prostitute in a tube shirt and high heels, short skirt, when he tried to proposition her for sex....LOL.....see we all can make assumptions on appearance, yet are they correct? NO always means NO!

Ken
said

Some of the comments about leaving money in their car and leaving your house unlocked as a means of justification to commit a crime because people don't have 'common sense' is just stupid. We all might as well not have wallets, carry no cash or credit cards because it is an invitation to get mugged. I mean by some people's idiotic definition, that would be 'common sense' People justifying what the judge said are stupid. Doesn't matter what you wear and where you are, there is NO excuse for rape. Common sense would be for the accused to head to prison. Common sense would have been for him not to commit a crime. Common sense would be for all you fools justifying this to really think about what you're saying and get a sense of reality of what crime was committed here.

Jared
said

I don't know what the judge was thinking (give a real sentence would ya?) but I feel that his point was poorly expressed.Every one of us is at all times at risk of being a victim of every crime on the books. What we have to do in our lives in a society like this is take the responsibility to limit and reduce that risk as much as possible.I am not saying that the criminals commiting those crimes are not 100% repsonsible for their actions - because they are. But If I walk down the street waving a great big wad of cash around and get mugged - it's my own damn fault it happenned. The mugger is still guilty of robbing me but would it have happenned if I kept that wad of cash hidden? Might have but was it more likely to have happenned by me waving it around? Yup. That guy is still guilty and should still get the full punishment for choosing to break the law though.I chose at one time to work night shift in a sandwich shop in the middle of skid row and got held up. I knew the risk and took the job. The robber was guilty of the crime but I wouldn't have been robbed if I hadn't chosen to work in a high-risk environment.the point I and a lot of people here are trying to make is don't go out of your way to invite trouble. I am a not big guy but capable in a fight but I don't walk down alleys at night. I don't keep cash in my wallet nor do I wave it around. So I have yet to be mugged on the street.

J Green
said

@stu from London.From what I've been told by law enforcement representatives who work with databases he will not be on a DNA database and I bet the only "for life" database will be archived newspaper articles.

Nic
said

So What I am hearing from people on here is that grown men are children who can't control their impulses and therefore are not responsible for their actions if they rape a girl because of clothing.

It's law enforcement officials such as this one that are a part of the problem. Rape is about power and control. It wouldn't have mattered what these girls were wearing. This isn't rocket science people what he did was wrong. I don't care if she was running down the Fing street with nothing on that doesn't give any man the right to sexually assault a women. shame on those who still think that way.

BDA
said

Yep your right no means no.However men are genetically hardwired to respond to certain displays.Just like woman.Therefore then next time I see a woman dressed as described & I am turned down, I will have her charged with sexual harassment and sue her for false advertising. Ladies if your going to advertise don't be surprised if someone will want to buy add alcohol to the mix.how it will turn out is anybodies guess.

cehdehneh
said

Everyone needs to take a breath! They guy was not exonerated, he was convicted! The problem most people are having is they don't like the sentence. How many of you, who have commented, know the facts of the case? Perhaps the credibility of the accuser is completely in question?Rape is a disgusting crime. But common ladies, we need to dress appropiately. If I were to dress up like a bear, run through the woods during bear hunting season, and end up getting shot, someone would be totally justified in asking, "What were you thinking?" And I would also add, at the risk of being hated, the hunter would have a pretty darn good defense.

Carol Mitchell
said

I cannot believe in this day and age that anyone still thinks this way. It absolutely boggles my mind! Get off your Jules Verne time machine and join the rest of us! I can't believe a sitting judge with any level of common sense would actually say this out loud. What an arrogant, misguided fool. Next thing, he'll let someone off because the girl was wearing enticing perfume? Give me a break! This is why people have no faith in justice!

Anne Fox
said

There is more than a little of the fashion police in this attitude. Many of the older generation who are recycling their old fashions for the young believe these well informed young people are like they were. The hypocrites of the sex drugs and rock and roll generation are now in positions of power. This Judge sounds like the corrupt Judges that make up the district of Edmonton Judiciary. We have one who several years ago reduced a First Nations woman who had been assaulted to a pair of hips. A body part. This Judge is still on the bench and he is stillo being permitted to make discriminatory remarks influensing the community standards and creating a climate of fear among First Nations women who are assaulted 7 times more often than others by strangers. Rape propaganda from the RCMP about high risk groups has increased violent crime against First Nations women and causes fear of reporting. The acceptance of crimes against women has increased in Alberta to the point that many First nations victims are abused by service providers or Police by both victim and witness attack. Abuse here extends to children through the child witness attack laws of Childrens Services programs through-out the west. The abuse is directed against First Nations in particular. Corruption in the family courts supports the abuse of child and women victims and witnesses.

V
said

To AB: Amen to that!As another post below also stated, rape and sexual assault is about control and power - imposing one's will over another.This judge, as well as the political climate re: women's rights with this Conservative government raises some serious concerns for me for the future (especially if they manage to wina majority in the next election... God forbid!).Rights are not owed us, many had to fight for them for decades, centuries even - they can be taken away within less than a decade (like what's happening in the U.S. with the Republicans, but in Canada it's worse because it's being done so quietly that many do not notice).These kind of ridiculous and backward opinions on the reasons and consequences of sexual assault and rape are no way to progress as a country/society. And to think, this judge is who we turn to to get our rights preserved and enforced.Yikes.

Ben
said

100% you bring more risk by dressing like a porn star.

No question, it is pretty eay to see that. Just like criminals or gangsters tend to attract cops.

Common sense. I support that judge and the cop who called it like it is...

CdM
said

So, because men can't handle their sexual impulses, women cant freely express their sexuality? Uh... what?

Jan, Toroonto
said

The judge forgot that rape isn't about sex; it's about power and violence. Regardless of any supposed encouragement, no means no.

It's quite simple really
said

"No!" means "No!". No matter what it's wearing.

Linda Radvan
said

Quite frankly this man should be automatically barred, removed from his post as Judge.

What planet or world does this person live in? As a Judge he expects respect from whoever stands before him. Well, back in the day when Women had no rights and were raped as many times one could bat their eyelash, this man deserves a real hard slap across the face, as in back in the day where any dignified woman had rights to do such to a man who conveyed such henious disrespect!!!!

I say, hog tie him, tear his clothes off to close to nothing, put him out in the back forty with all those young calves, and see what he would say after this little gesture to challenging his feelings of humilation!!!
Human Rights Commissions worldwide began on the premise of Women being treated as he has expressed takes us back to square one here. This definitely requires an immediate action from the Manitoba Ombudsman Office to force the hand of removing him from this post he has, and let his punishment be fitting to his crime of humanity against this woman or any other woman who has stood before him of past who was treated in such fashions.

Disgusting!!!

Stu from London
said

I agree witht he judge's ruling. This guy is now a convicted sex offender and will be on a database for life. I doubt he will ever be able to live a normal life or be able to make a decent income ever again. Whether or he spent 3 years in jail, or 2 years house arrest, what difference does it make? His life is over. These cases are complicated, and the evidence ver divisive. Unless you were at the trial and were aware of all the evidence, I doubt many of you know what you're talking about.By the way, Justice Dewar was appointed by the Conservatives 17 months ago.

MyTwoBits
said

Hmm...I wonder if Dewar would encourage the rape victim to sue the designer of the tube top for creating such a dangerous garment that ultimately put her in harms way...or if he thinks a case like that would be thrown out of court by a judge with a half a brain?

Joe Spumolio
said

I'm with Don1. The surroundings and attire are absolutely aggravating circumstances. The way a woman dresses sends out a message. That's why we have lingerie stores. When are people going to wake up and realize that humans are animals? Aside from the ability to walk upright and order food off a menu, humans are no different than dogs. If this woman can't play with the big boys she should hang out at the library instead of the local pick up joint.

Nuala
said

So if I follow the logic of the judge and of a lot of the talibans commenting this piece of news, Canadian women should wear burkas to be safe. Otherwise any red-blooded man might think that you are looking for sex and feel he has the right to rape you. Because you are looking for it. Of course. Women love being raped. Only rape is violence, concretely sexual violence. Not sex. Sex is consensual and fun.Or it should be.And as what's sexy or too suggestive is entirely a subjective matter then burkas it is. Oh I feel so lucky to live in Canada now.

J
said

Definitely not the fault of the woman and the judges comments were inappropriate, but he understands the type of people that commit rape crimes and what attracts these psychos to their victims.

There are many things you can do to avoid being a victim, and still end up being a victim just because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. It all depends on the criminal's intent.

Keep them in jail.

Lilla
said

This is disgusting. The rapist should be imprisoned, and the judge fired.

or maybe...
said

No means no all the time, there is never a different meaning to no. However, I am a woman and I hope this comes across the way I mean it when I say... a woman who dresses slutty (not sexy or flirty) and who is displaying overtly sexual/sensual behaviour in an environment where there is too much alcohol and a lot of testosterone can honestly never ask "why me" if the unfortunate happens. It is never acceptable and ever even remotely okay but at the same time there must be some level of responsibility on the comptortment of said women. Don't allow yourself to be in these types of situations... don't let these monsters have the opportunity to say "I thought she wanted it"

Rebecca
said

Rape is NOT okay. Period.

scott
said

More proof that one of the biggest problems with the canadian legal system is the unbeleivable stupidity of the judges. How in the hell do idiots like this even become judges.

Laurie
said

I agree with the comments of Jack from Hamilton 100%. Further, these comments made by a judge should result in the IMMEDIATE firing of this sexist idiot. No woman should have to endure this type of callous comment from a judge. This guy makes all of us men look like animals.

Don1
said

Men in prison do not wear bathing suits or run around provocatively dressed for that very reason.The political correctness of rape being a fully male responsible act in every circumstance is not real. A female only has to change her mind after sobering up ,holler rape and a guy is doomed.

Steve T
said

There's a store in my local strip mall that was recently robbed at gun point. According to this joker judge, the store keeper's at fault for putting the merchandise on display!

Karin, Lethbridge
said

So.. next step would be warning labels on certain pieces of clothing that 'it might provoke the less evolved to unwanted actions against the wearer'??

Cathy
said

In addition to being misogynistic (and women do not choose their clothes to satisfy the desires of men), the comments made by the judge are also offensive to men because they perpetuate the belief that men are sex-crazed lunatics who can't help themselves but commit sexual assault and could commit one at any time unless we all work hard and tip toe around anything they might find attractive in order to avoid setting them off.

jettle
said

What happened to rape being a crime of violence? It doesn't matter what any rape victim is wearing. What matters is the actions of the perpetrator.

bikerborz
said

And virtually all the posters denouncing the judge's statement(s) are proving the teaching society has been pushing for the last generation: "It's not my fault. I'm a victim. I should be able to do anything I want with no consequences. If anything happens because of something I do, it's not my fault." I'm longing for the days of personal responsibility again... The judge just had the cojones to state what reality is.

James in QC
said

The issue is two-fold.1- Fellows, respect the rights and integrity of women. At all times !! (most guys do.)2- Ladies, be wise and know the risks when you decide how to conduct yourselves. (There are freaks out there)Clothing and behavior should not matter when it comes to rape but IT SADLY DOES sometimes. That being said, LEGALLY, clothing should NOT be an issue at all in court regarding rape. Behavior, speech, circumstances and maybe substance abuse might be things to consider though in order to determine guilt or false accusation. We've seen cases where a woman was lying for extortion money or where she was fully consenting then falsely report being raped under pressure (parental or other)

Joe Canadian
said

This all comes down to the simplest thing - regardless of how the woman was dressed, the guy still had sex with her against her will. being dressed like a slut or whatever you ant to call it does not for one minute exonerate him - period. No will always mean no. Having said that, people need to use a little brainpower now and then. The reality is that there are predators out there and if you dress in almost nothing you will attract their attention - does this give them the right to rape you? Of course not, but it does make you a target in the same way as flashing $100 bills in a crappy part of town will make you a target for robbery. The reality is that we do not live in eutopia and people do become victims of crimes and they ought to be aware of that and use common sense. By the way - they guy should still go to jail because her making herself a target does not ever excuse teh actions of a rapist.

Linda in Vancouver
said

As someone has already said,the judge did not say the woman deserved to be raped.The judge said her dress and her actions may have added fuel to the fire.I fail to see how that is really wrong. I stand with all women who are almost certain to respect the kind of work Monique does.I also agree with a lot of what she said.But I question her take on the use of words like "tart',or "skank". I know they are derogatory.But we all know what the words mean.So I would ask Monique to think about teaching young women not to be.or act like "skanks" or "tarts",rather than running a crusade to outlaw the words.The respect women seek is more likely to be found if they act like they want to be respected.If you act like a "skank",you will be assumed to be one.I don't like the term either,but if the shoe fits,wear it. Certainly we have to assume some responsibility for how we are perceived.Isn't that what we try to teach our children? Be true to who you really are,and don't try to be someone you are not.

logic and not political correctness!
said

there are obviously men who will rape women. The question is... do the clothes/attitude provoke these particular men?? If it does, who are we to say differently?The smart thing to do, if women are in fear of being raped by a few sick men, would be to prevent it by dressing in a non-sexual way. If you do not fear being raped, then by all means continue to dress the way you do. Just don't be surprised if a rapist tries to deflect the blame back at you for what you are wearing.

PEI Fella
said

In a perfect world people should be able to dress as they like without fear. Unfortunately in our world their are monsters on prowl that look and appear to act like normal citizens. They do operate by the same moral or ethic codes that normal people do.When a girl goes out and dresses herself up and behaves the way we are to believe these girls had done that night, they should not let their guard down. Being out at a club and giving of those vibes is like swimming with a sharks and cutting yourself. Its an unfortunate reality that we face in our society.People who commit these hideous crimes need to face a much harsher punishment and their should be far more support for the victims so they can won't be afraid to come forward and report the crimes against themselves.

Matt
said

I can't believe that this judge is still in his job. His comments and the weak sentence he has handed down are outrageous. Furthermore, I cannot comprehend how some commenters here seem to defend his position. If your 14 year old daughter heads to the park in skimpy shorts and a tank top, does it follow that she too is making a sexual invitation? Is a server in a restaurant asking for sex by wearing a tight little black dress? Perhaps Justice Dewar thinks that women should cover themselves completely, lest they encourage us unwitting lotharios to give these sluts what they really want. Makes me ashamed to be male and ashamed of the Canadian justice system.

Kath
said

Provocative dress is just one small part of some rapists' messed up internal reasoning. Women, especially young women, need to know this so they can make an informed decision about what they are wearing. If a woman chooses to dress to attract men, she will attract all kinds, not just ones she knows and ones with good intentions. Is it right? Absolutely not.It's no different then choosing not to walk down a dark alley alone at night, etc - not anything that makes a person deserve to be attacked, and a sad state for society as a whole, but a reality. Until we can find a way to "cure" a rapist, prevent all thought-processes that go through his or her head before an attack, women need to be aware that there are steps that they can choose to take to be proactive about their safety. For some, one of those steps might be looking at how they dress.

Abdula in Kanata
said

A reader commented that "Men are the dominant of the two genders. It's been that way since the beginning (If you're a bible reader, then the bible itself says that WOMEN ARE THE WEAKER VESSEL)." You can smell the masculine condescension in this it is no wonder that women get raped. Not because they do anything to deserve it but because people allow this sort of nonsense to come from males and obviously even male judges. Let's move beyond neanderthal knuckle dragging and act human. If a woman wears nothing she is not saying rape me. If a man has sex with a woman that dresses sexy but has said no he is the one at fault, and he is a neanderthal and deserves to be locked up where he won't hurt others.

Vanc Guy
said

If you put raw meat in front of a tiger who's at fault? You or the hungry tiger?

Len
said

Although I disagree with what the judge had to say there are some things that should be considered. according to the news story two women were picked up at the bar by two men. They were talking about going swimming even though they had no swim wear. They then split into couples and went into the bush. We do not know what happened after that but I'm sure the judge heard both sides of the story and ruled accordingly.

Steve
said

Ask for trouble and you may very well get it. Yes women can dress as they please, however this cavalier attitude does not remove all personal responsibility for what happens to them.

zane
said

A judge has to consider a lot of different circumstances and factors in arriving at a decision. The comments that were made are part of that process and they were stated as part of the explanation of the sentencing of the perpetrator. If any woman who dresses provocatively thinks that she will not stimulate some form of desire in other people, she needs to reassess her style of dress and her reasons for wearing such clothing.

DED
said

When you drive down the street and see a hooker on the street - not only where they are but how they dress is a major indicator. If you don't want people to assume that that is what you are looking for you shouldn't dress like them. The other end of the story is that no one should ever say, 'poor boy', she got him all worked up and he couldn't help himself. As has been said 'no' means 'no' and the guy who doesn't respond to that should not get off with a slap on the wrist. Shame on the judge. A parent also is a little dilussional because you can't always control how your daughter might dress or where she might be and with what company. She still doesn't deserve to get raped.

Tammy
said

I am so disgusted by these comments. As a 21 year old woman, yes women go out dressed in outfits to attract. Yes, they can attract attention...but do any of you honestly think that the girl DESERVED to be raped? Attracting attention and attracting/asking for RAPE are two completely DIFFERENT things. Maybe if the victim was complaining about being hit on, then the judge can cry foul. However if she said no, then it is a NO. Men have the capacity to CHOOSE not to rape. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and say that just because a man sees a woman dressed in a certain manner, that he has no urge and he couldn't help himself.

karen
said

It's a sad day when judges are making the victim guilty not the predator. A woman or man should be able to walk down the street naked and expect to receive nothing more than an indecent exposure ticket or a blanket offered to them not being forced to have sex with some predator with twisted fantasies. What a person wears doesn't invite sex an invitation invites sex.

jack from hamilton
said

Men and Women alike should be able to walk around completely unclothed without the threat of being sexually harassed or raped. Personal opinions and preferences of dressing do not constitute an invitation for sexual misconduct. To those out there who believe so, the men in particular, perhaps they should walk around in a bathingsuit in a prison and be sure to bend over. Perhaps *then* they will understand.

Spencer
said

Some commentators (eg. William, asdf, CSam) have suggested that women should not expect respect if they dress in a sexually provocative way. But the issue in this case is not whether or not the victim deserved respect. The issue is whether or not she deserved to be raped! There's a heck of a difference, don't you think? It's your right to think less of a woman because of her attire. It is not your right to have sex with her without her consent, no matter what you think of her. Good grief - This should not need to be explained in 21st-century Canada.

Corinne
said

What ever happened to being able to dress how we want? I didn't realize we all had to conform to a conservative attire...
Who cares how the girl was dressed, the moment she says NO means that she does NOT have the sexual desire that the judge apparently thinks she was trying to portray. That's just like saying those "geeks" who dress in plaid, big thick glasses and wear suspenders are ASKING to be beat. Um no. Ones choice of attire does not necessarily represent what they want or deserve.

Monique
said

asdf writes:"What next - are men going to get in trouble for staring at a strippers breasts and other "ass"ets?Women - especially young women - need to have some respect for themselves. If they dress like scanks, they obviously have no respect for themselves, so why should anyone else?"-----------------------You say that young women should show respect for themselves, but use the word "scanks" and speak about women using descriptive words that are less than respectful of women. As a youth counsellor who has worked with many at-risk female adolescents who have been torn down by society, some of them molested as a very young child, they are taught that the world no longer respects them. In turn, they dress to get the approval of men. They learn this message through the sexualization of women in advertising. You say that these women should respect themselves, but what are you doing to model such behaviour? Your language does not express respect for women. What is the example that you are teaching?

Marcel
said

The judge did not say the woman "deserved" to be raped when they dress like scanks - he said her clothing and behavior helped explain the events that happened. All of us - men and women - send out signals by our dress and behavior all the times. If a woman's dress and behavior suggest she is willing then she should not be surprised if someone takes up her apparent invitation. As my wife taught our two daughters - don't advertise what you're not prepared to sell. That's teasing and leading on - and that DOES make you somewhat responsible for what happens. You are helping to set up a situation that could end badly - especially when alcohol and drugs are present.

Lane
said

It is reasonable to advise women to take precautions against being sexually assaulted. But it is preposterous to lower the sentence for a rapist just because the victim's attire did not deter the crime. Does a mugger get a lighter sentence because the victim was wearing expensive jewellery? Does a car thief get a lighter sentence because the car owner didn't lock the doors and activate an alarm system? Does a murderer get a lighter sentence because the victim was alone, weak and unarmed? Of course not. The same principle should have applied in this case. The judge was wrong. I hope the Crown appeals the sentence.

Doug Docherty
said

Nobody is asking you to respect a woman that you fell dresses like a "tart". We're just asking you not to rape them.

Common Sense
said

Let's change the context. Suppose a MAN or WOMAN walked NAKED into a JAIL house and gets raped. 100% - its the criminals fault according to some posters here and 0% for the person that thinks its safe to walk completely naked into a Jail. Now to the story: Please note, the other 200 men at the bar didn't rape this woman and get convicted, just the loser. So the other 200 men held up pretty well, but who did she decide to catch a ride from? A perfect stranger..... Ya.... he's 100% at fault and the judge convicted him for RAPE. Read the article.

Doug ^^^ BC
said

I think most grown ups know that "NO" always means "NO".And most grown ups know that no woman or girl deserves to be molested or raped. But,as inappropriate as the judges comments were,I think we're in denail if we think the way women are dressed,or how they act in public does not play a role in how they are treated.We can agree that that isn't necessarily right,but it's still a reality. Like "Paul In Kitchener",I have a lot of trouble with how judges are appointed.But to suggest that they don't speak for "we the people",as noble as that sounds,makes no sense.For anyone to speak for "we the people".you are assuming that "we the people" are a monolithic entity,and speak with one voice.Given how we boast about our "diverse" society,does anyone ever see the day when 34 million people will speak withone voice on any issue? In truth,I think what "Paul" is really saying,is that the judges don't speak for him,or what he believes in.That does not mean they judge does not accurately reflect someone else's pointt of view.Someone who is also a part of "we the people". I've done jury duty on several rape trials.I stand by my view that "no" means "no".But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to stand up and ask the victim, "what the h*** were you thinking"? Or maybe "what did you think was going to happen"?

Michael from Toronto
said

I think the judge made a reasonable point. Given the women were dressed in a very suggestive manner and they were in a bar when they met (and went outside) with the accused, there is reasonable belief that they may have given the wrong signals to the accused. People dress up and go to bars to socialize. If a woman leaves a bar with someone she met while dressed in a suggestive way, it is reasonable that both parties are interested in some form of sexual encounter. Add booze and you have the potential for problems. Both parties are responsible to certain degrees once they consent to going off together. I don't know what's with Busby, people communicate non-verbally all the time. She must either be a robot or just plain dishonest. Her statement about "women ...in a state of constant sexual readiness.." is something she brought up to inflame the case. It has nothing to do with the case. BTW, there are johns out there who do mistaken other women for prostitutes. Prostitutes hang out at night in red light districts and wear suggestive clothing. If you want to avoid unwanted attention, don't go to those places under those circumstances. LOL!

Kim
said

I have the right to walk around anywhere with $100 bills taped to my clothes. Is anyone gonna feel sorry for me if i'm robbed?

abdula from Kanata
said

So it seems that dressing like a slut means" rape me?" Okay then wearing a suit means I'm rich so "rob me?" or painting a target on my back says "shoot me" and maybe looking like an innocent child says "abuse me?" As a male I am insulted, it says that I have no self control and I don't understand the word No. To those that think that no does not always mean no you are awefull dense and better stay away from my daughter.

shawbrooke
said

When there is a common belief that sex is harmless, men have needs, and women' s only option is to enjoy meeting men's needs, then is it any wonder that men of all education and status levels believe the same things? If the man was not using dress as an excuse, he'd find another excuse. It's the basic attitudes that are to blame. Women need to be prepared to lose the relationship rather than have sex before they are ready. I think that expecting men to respect women's sexual needs is a lost cause.

Lz in Edmonton
said

Common sense has left the building with most posters here. Read the article, the guy was charged AND convicted of rape. That's on his record for life. However, the judge basically said, you messed with fire lady. The judge should be given a raise. Common sense for people isnt common any longer. If you put yourself in a dangerous situation, who's fault is that? It wasn't as though the victim wasn't putting herself at risk. Surely you all see that. Please...Sure mister, I'll take a ride with you and I've been drinking and saw you look at me all night. Rule 1: Never take rides with strangers right? She could have been a nun and still been raped. The clothes aren't the issue at all, its the situations you get yourself in that IS the issue.

Babs
said

Are we not, as adults (men and women) responsible for our actions? Just because I am a woman,should I be held accountable for someonelse's actions? Anyone who lacks self-control and responsibility for themselves should be under strict supervision and remain out of the public's eye ie stay in the house. Blaming someonelse is so childish..time to grow up.That goes for the judge as well...he or she should be judging cases according to today's society standards not the middle ages.

J.C.
said

Boy it is amazing how many jump on what the judge said without having all the facts in the case. It is not just dress that is in question but the behaviours etc. as well. In his defence claim he said he thought he had consent. True or not? Why did he think he had consent and what really happened between them? I guess we would have to have all the facts of the case to know why the judge made the remarks he did, and not just what is printed in the news item.

agree
said

Good for the Judge I say. The way some of these woment dress is certainly suggesting to the guys that they are looking for it and please take me. Tight fitting clothes and short, short skirts and nearly nothing but a bra like top, yeah, I for one thing they are aking for it. Women need to dress appropriate and they can still look beautiful but they don't need to dress like a hooker like some do even when they are not.

Peggy (Lethbridge)
said

No one - male or female - has the right to take or do something from/to another without permission. Sex included - No means NO. For this judge to condemn someone because of what they wore is ridiculous - it is the action of TAKING WITHOUT CONSENT that needs to be condemned. It wasn�t her fault that she was raped because of what she was wearing, just as it isn�t the clothes designer�s fault for designing the clothing or the manufacturer that made the clothing or even the store that sold her the clothing � the fault lies totally on the individual that decided to take away someone else�s right to their freedom. Perhaps it is the fault of the politicians, law makers, judges, lawyers or anyone with this misguided thought process that allows for an individual to loose their ability to say NO! Canada has been making positive strides to educate Canadians to report any type of domestic violence - verbal, mental or physical � and now with this ruling do you think that a woman/man that is being abused will step forward and report their attacker(s) � I don�t think so � not with the backwards thinking that this judge has stated out loud.

viral venus
said

For all of you pathetic, backwards thinking misogynists (that's "woman haters" since most of you don't sound educated or intelligent enough to know the word) arguing that sexual arousal by the male because of the appearance of the female is some excuse for rape is cruel, dark ages nonsense. Pedophiles routinely argue that they "can't help themselves" because children in shorts or diapers or whatever arouse them too much for them to contol themselves. We don't accept that as an excuse because we acknowlege that they have a sick mind, are acting criminally and have an abnormal and different response than normal humans in the same situation. How is that different from that minority of men who rape adult women because "they can't help themselves" because women in short skirts or "slutty attire" arouse them too much for them to contol themselves? Can we now reasonaby expect that all women and girls at the beach in bathing suits can be targeted for sex and not be allowed to say "No" because they may look sexually attractive to that subset of men who are out-of-control, immature jerks? It's bad enough that women have always had to endure sexual assaults but it was always worse when those assaults were not considered a criminal act if the man could pull out the "she asked for it" excuse. Let's not let ourselves go back to being a society where a woman's right to refuse to have sex is conditional on her being dressed like a nun and convincing some neanderthal judge that she didn't invite her attacker to throw her down in the woods and forcibly penetrate her just because she socialized with him in some way prior to the attack.

Miss
said

William said "Women seem to want the right to dress like a tart yet be treated like ladies." Okay...you don't have to treat a woman that dresses like a "tart" with a great deal of respect. Just don't rape her, okay?

Carl
said

When a woman dresses provocatively, it may be reasonable to assume that she wants to have sex. However, it is NOT reasonable to assume that she wants to have sex with YOU. Consent is still needed. There is no excuse for ever violating that principle.

Louis-Paul in Markham
said

After reading teh differents posts from peopel on two different sides. I noticed there are actually two arguments:The first being that raper is rape. Seems not a single post disagrees with that. Which is good. Any person willing to commit such a thing is not welcome in our siciety.The second agreeswith what the judge said. Not one of those psoters said anything about being the woman's fault. They all say that skmpy and suggestive clothing may not be the best choice. It does not say not to do it. It does not say t"they asked for it". What it does say is that getting attention from other by teh way you dress simply makes you a target over someone who is not dressed in a similar fashion. A person who notices a pretty girl dress skimpily will not automatically commit a crime because of it. But if his morals are weak or non existant, he will more likely target the easy "looking" one that drew his attention. Did she ask for that? no way! but she drew his attention (all people will ook at handsome/pretty people before they will at others, it's in our genes.)I say we should cut off they "manhood' when they do that type of crime...

LisainNS
said

Anyone who agrees even partially with that judges statements needs to educate themselves. If I left my doors unlocked, does that mean I deserve to be robbed? If I go out for walks late at night, am I looking to get raped or mugged?

A Parent
said

Anne � I never said no means yes. I said that women must think about how they dress, and LESSEN the chance of them attracting the wrong type of attention which is unwarranted, and unwanted. A man assaulting a woman is wrong, and he should be punished. However I�m not concerned about the scum bag here, my point is to protect the woman she must lower her target factor. In a perfect world a woman could dress any way she pleased, but unfortunately there are many sickos out there. Oh, and for the record, I am all for strengthening the law and making the punishment more severe: they are doing wonderful things with chemical castration these days. :)

Max in Vancouver
said

I believe, in this enlightened world, that the responsibility is split. Men cannot "expect" favours based on appearance and women have the responsibility to ensure their safety. There's enough brain cells in everyone to realize the consequences of your actions. If no means no, then no man has the right to think otherwise. It's up to us to determine if the "advertising" is for appearance only. An invitation needs to be followed by a "yes" to the question. ALWAYS!

Rick @ Ottawa
said

In a perfect world women would be able to dress anyway they like; however we all know that the world is not perfect. In a perfect world I should be able to walk down the street with a $100 bill hanging out of my back pocket and no one would steal it - but I don't because its not a perfect world. Women who dress this way do so to look 'sexy'. Just what is it that they are trying to accomplish when they dress 'sexy'.Women please use some common sense and remember that it's not a perfect world.

Anne
said

In law, a woman who dresses suggestively should not be considered contributory in the rape. Practically speaking, however, a woman should be careful in how she dresses. It's a fact that perverted males exist, and it doesn't help to attract their attention by dressing suggestively in public. This is not to put the blame on women, but to be careful because no amount of legal reasoning is going to get rid of perverts.

Take responsibility
said

@Kathleen: 'The industry puts women in scant clothing, glorifies them, shows them as being successful, sexy, etc. '...........Sorry Kathleen it is the women WHO CHOOSE to be seen in scant clothing and offer themselves to the industry that way. NOBODY is forcing them. Women who run around looking like tarts do so by their own choosing. It's time women took responsibility for how they dress.

Karin
said

No, the point IS - Logan - that we have hopefully EVOLVED from the cavemen and their mentalities by now. Man should be able to control their urges and desires and if they don't, they should suffer severe consequences. To use biological and chemical processes as an excuus is a straight fall backwards into the stone age. 'Man is the dominant gender' you say.. don't make me laugh.. 'because the bible says so?' of course the bible says so... it's written by men! Provocative or sexy or pretty clothing or looks are extremely subjective. To a Muslim, provocative clothing shows skin on arms or legs or even just hair.. should he be able to use that excuus to do whatever he wants?? Didn't think so huh. In the summertime or anytime around swimming pools there are women 'scantilly clad'. Should they also blame it on themselves... or moreso.. just wait for the 'chemically and biologically charged up guy' to grope them? Didn't think so either.. Do some women/girls need to learn that looking nice doesn't mean showing it all.. definitely but this should NEVER be an excuus to assault them!

lily
said

WOW.......I have to voice my opinion that if I chose to wear a shorter skirt or a top that shows some cleavage, that is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER an invitation of anything other than. My jaw is still on my desk as I cannot believe how many STUPID people are on our planet and how backwards you all still are. We should not have to protect ourselves from the sickos out there, that is what the police and justice system are for. So if a man leaves his fly open, is that an invitation for me to stick my hands down his pants? didn't think so, and trust in the fact that if a man ever thought I was inviting him with MY CLOTHES, he will find out the hard way I wasn't.

Karl
said

Seriously, I cannot believe some of the comments I'm reading on here! It is obvious to me now that women still have not earned the equality and respect they deserve in modern society. Offering that the way a woman is dressed is an excuse to take advantage of them is disgusting. That some are even quoting the bible to bolster their stance is even more ridiculous, considering that we don't murder adulterers and stone blasphemers anymore. It is cultural factors that mainly contribute to the way young women dress. It starts with beauty pageants and proceeds through women's product advertising and fashion. It culminates with the role models young women have in the likes of Gaga and Spears. If men really believe that women should dress more conservatively - and I'm not in agreement about this, why aren't they screaming about cultural influences and role models? Why don't they have a problem with sexist deodorant and beer ads? It's because men like the images they see, even though they might not admit it. Then they will not hesitate to use those images in real life as an excuse to disrespect women.

William
said

Women seem to want the right to dress like a tart yet be treated like ladies... that seems to be the message some are advocating here who say that women are not responsible for how they dress. I agree NO means NO but don't ask me to respect a woman who dresses like a tart.

Anne
said

A Parent - i am shocked and saddened by your comments (as well as many others here). God forbid your daughter is raped one day and the judge blames her for having pretty hair or a beautiful smile. How will you feel then? Rape is not about being attracted to someone - it is a crime of power and control.Yes women who dress provocatively will get attention but that does not mean that if they say NO, it means yes. The law is the law, regardless of the attire of the victim.

jj72
said

So to those posting that women who dress in revealing wear are asking to be raped......what difference is that from a woman wearing a bikini or swimsuit at a beach/pool?

Karin, Lethbridge
said

You GUYS are missing the point here. We should be past the stone age and man acting solely on urges. Most of us HAVE evolved hopefully! The point here is that even after consideration and thought, a JUDGE agrees with the assaulter. We are talking about an educated man, that has been put in charge of protecting people's rights. HE said it was partly the woman's fault because she dressed a certain way. This is wrong on so many levels and takes us back to the dark ages so fast, it's unreal. This judge should be thrown out, barred and thrown in jail where Bubba can tell him that his orange suit looks very sexy!

asdf
said

What next - are men going to get in trouble for staring at a strippers breasts and other "ass"ets?Women - especially young women - need to have some respect for themselves. If they dress like scanks, they obviously have no respect for themselves, so why should anyone else?

Susan Smith
said

Well, I guess we might as well all wear burkas.

SB
said

People, the judge said he was guilty!! His comment about the clothing is related to the sentence. People dress for appearances that sends out signals. You get alcohol involved, those signals get crossed. Yes, he did wrong, the judge recognized it but according the evidence he has seen and heard that WE have not, he has lessened the charge from that of other cases.

CSam
said

While I don't agree that the woman wanted to get raped, I do agree that what a woman chooses to wear can send the wrong message sometimes. You don't have to wear a three piece suit, but a tube top with no bra? Really, what would you ladies say to each other if you saw someone dressed like this at a bar? You'd most likely say some derogatory comments to each other about the other lady...but now that she claims rape, you're on her side. The guy should be held accountable for his actions, no question, but the ladies should consider the message they're sending.

Johanna (WInnipeg)
said

I don't believe women should "be careful" about how they dress. More importantly men should "be careful" about how they act. Because I believe that as much as a tight skirt can encourage rape, a harsh sentence should be able to discourage it. I enjoy that some people are stating that some men are "pigs". Did it ever occur to anyone that harsh sentencing could lower the number of "pigs" out there? I think this type of sentence invites rape as much as any amount of cleavage would.

AB
said

To those of you who say a woman who dresses in a short skirt is asking for it - back it up several decades, centuries, all the way back to the beginning... Even "back in the day" when women dressed more conservatively, rape was as rampant then as it is now. If anything it was more common place when women had fewer rights and protections both in society and under the law. Men have been coming up with excuses for rape for millenia - girls in mini skirts didn't just all of sudden start enticing men. Women in burkkas get raped too. DROP THIS RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT ALREADY!!

Anne
said

SIGH I thought we were past all this kind of thought process already. Blaming the woman because of what she wears, that's idiotic. The judge does not belong on the bench. I suppose it's open season then on the beach is it?? The big problem are these men who persist in the notion that 'they're asking for it'. Time they spent some worthwhile hours raising their IQ level.

PBW
said

Some of the posters here would obviously prefer women to "dress modestly" as required by some fundamentalist branches of some religions - and no doubt would treat women like the worst misogynists the world has ever seen. Try to get past that medieval thinking and into the 21st century! In Canada, men and women are equal under the law, regardless of their choice of dress. As far as I am concerned, in this case the judge was an ass, and probably going against several SCC rulings. When it comes to rape there ARE no excuses, and jail time is, I believe, mandatory. This sentence is a mockery, and I sincerely hope it is appealed.

Catwoman 38
said

Honestly lots of women wear make up, and high heels, and clothes that make them look sexy. And they have normal lives.They work ,date, and have a family.Yes, some women are actually married and are just trying to get lucky on the side.But there are men doing this as well.But the thing is if you stand out on the streets near an area where women have been known to be treated badly, or act like a hooker, men will treat you like one.On the other hand, men have to be more careful of who they pick up, not all women are innocent. Women have to be more clear on their body image. If they are trying to pick up a man , they have to be clear, and if not they have to signal it.Men should pay attention to women signals more often, and women should do the same.

Wednesday
said

I think it's worth mentioning that rape isn't really about sex. It's about POWER. The rapist wants to have power and control over their victim. And if they want that power, they're going to going to target somebody that is weaker than them in some way, regardless of how they're dressed.

John (Edm)
said

If personal sterotypes can be used as mitigating factors for sentencing. Where and how do you draw the line on sentencing for any criminal action?

LG
said

While I do agree with most of the comments and I have mixed emotions, I must add that no matter how someone is dressed, if an assault is going to happen it will happen. Yes, the night clubs are a 'meat market' and I cannot believe how some young women dress. This ruling has set women back a few decades, set Canada back a few decades and is allowing the guilty offender to walk free. If this would have happened to the Judge's daughter or family member and she was dressed like the victim was, would the ruling have been different? Oh, I think so. This is a sad, sad day for Canadian women.

Sandra
said

I happy that the judge actually looked at all the evidence. we live in a society that walks on egg shells all the time because we are scared to speak are minds because someone is sure to get offended. I know that we are free to deres the way we want but that does not mean we do not consider other people. What is even scarier is some cloth that 12 and others around that age wear. Some cloth is hiding nothing almost. I know women who dress that way and if a guy looks at them they cry out.

Mike
said

I think everybody agrees that "No means no". Dressing appropriately is just like driving safely it does not mean you will not be involved in an accident. It just decreases the chances. Precaution is the keyword here. Judge in this case gave a very sensible comment.

Samantha
said

Can I point out something? I don't care if they were dressed like hookers. I don't care if she walked around naked. The minute a woman says NO you don't keep going at it.

I can't believe people have the nerve to say "hope you ladies learned a lesson!" That's disgusting. What kind of society do we live in?

So every woman in a club should be raped? So every girl plastered with makeup deserves to be raped?

Each and everyone of you who think the judge was right deserve a slap on the wrist. I don't care what she attracts, she said NO. That is what counts. And he deserves punishment for VIOLATING a woman when she said NO.

Louis-Paul in Markham
said

The point of suggestive clothing being a factor has nothing to do with justifying the actions. On the contrary, it makes it worse. What it does point out is that you attract attention to yourself by person's that may be willing to commit such a crime. It is very much like the old joke of running away from a bear. you don't need to outrun the bear, only the next slowest guy in your group...Ladies, If yuo consider dressing suggestively, you WILL attract more attention. good AND bad. your choice on whether or not yuo want attention.

Pook
said

How is this any different than the police pulling over a man and harassing him because he is not white and assuming he is guilty of something? Sure, we all make judgements based on appearances and that is part of our survival instinct. But once you take that judgement and use it to rationalize violation of the person, you have crossed the line. Period.

Anon
said

As a young woman, I do know that some people will assume consent if I behave in a certain way. But that doesn't make it right. Let's be honest here...rape is forced sex. Therefore, it is physically impossible to ask for it. You can't ask to be forced to so something. End of story. This judge is completely incompetent if he can't comprehend this, and should be removed from his position. I am disgusted by him.

Duncan
said

I doubt the fellow left the house that evening intending to rape a woman. So why did he feel he was justfied in raping a woman because of how she was dressed? If attire is a valid excuse for rape, where do we draw the line at women's attire inviting rape? Is it a tube top, mini skirt and heels? Or just the tube top? Or what? And who should make the decision? That idea is totally ludicrous and I guess all women should be in burkas because in some countries you could be raped or beaten if you're not. Once you start dictating how people dress and allowing any assault or rape because of it, it is a slippery slope. Think about it.

Marl
said

You gotta be kidding! Get that guy off the bench........what's next. She deserved to be beaten because she was a nag.....she deserved to be raped because the clothes were 'inappropriate'......he deserved to be fired because he displayed homosexual tendencies!

Charles Marion
said

wow....enough said already...dress as you wish, but always remember that obviously there are sickos out there everywhere ....after all this is the real world.....it will NEVER be the perfect world...

Logan
said

The point is, ladies, that you dress to attract. That's why you dress. You think you look pretty, and you do look pretty. The problem with dressing in this fashion is that not only do you attract the ones you think are attractive, you are also going to attract those who you do NOT desire, and THEY will desire YOU. A criminal's mentality is like that of royalty, that they cannot be said "no" to. It doesn't register with them. The more you up the "Sexy" factor, the more attention you're going to attract from both sides of the coin. You're inviting yourself into disaster. Sure, you could say "But I'm a woman. If men don't have to go through this, why should a woman?" Because you're women, and that's what hormones and chemicals in bodies do. It's a biological thing. Men are the dominant of the two genders. It's been that way since the beginning (If you're a bible reader, then the bible itself says that WOMEN ARE THE WEAKER VESSEL). The point is, no one is telling you to stop dressing pretty. What people are saying is that you need to take care of yourself and not put yourself in a position where the likelihood of those who desire YOU but YOU do not desire THEM is greatly reduced or nonexistent.

Niagara George
said

If you drive by any bar that caters to young singles you will see more skin than you'll find at the Tandy Leather Factory. Just yesterday, my wife gasped as we passed a 19/20 year old jump out of a car, wearing a tank top, the shortest skirt possible and running through the snow in her bare feet as she headed into a downtown bar, filled with university students. Obviously, she was not looking to get raped, but she was advertising her wares. Unfortunately, there are sickos out there. Some of them are smooth enough to put on a good show in the bar and get what they want from a willing partner. Others do not have the social smarts for that and they use force. The wise girl is protecting herself from both groups.

James
said

Men - we need to get together on this one and demand that all women be charged with lude and antisocial behaviour in cases such as this (regardless of their position in society). Trashy attire, cleavage, tight clothes that sell sex by appearance is not acceptable in polite and civil society.

Rich
said

I think most would agree that there is no way that any female deserves to be raped under any circumstance. However there is a question of risk and women consciously putting themselves in venerable situations. If I wave a bone in front of my normally sleepy dog�s face and tease him with it, guess what� he starts to drool and gets very excited�his mind shifts gears and he becomes aggressive. Dogs are wired to eat what they can when they can just like most guys are wire to have sex when they can with anyone they can. It may not fit into your moral box�but it�s the truth. No�I�m not implying that all men are rapists but a woman dressed erotically or in reveling clothing just might increase the interest of a man who is. But when it comes to rapists, lets face it, you could be dress like a nun and still be a target. Still there is the question of risk�it reminds me of the guy who built his house on the river bank and came home one day to find three feet of water in his living room. Did he deserve it�no, but he certainly set the stage for it to happen.

Ian Ottawa
said

The fact that women can't dress sexy without a guy taking it as an excuse to make his moves on her is sad.No means No and unfortunately some guys don't get it. Caution is required by woman and never be alone for your own safety. Life isn't fair and it isn't always nice either. Try not to put yourself in harms way. The best offence is a good defence.

K from Halifax
said

I am horrified to hear about this and read some of these comments. Women's bodies are not public property and women shouldn't have to go around in baggy sweaters and sweatpants just so that they "aren't asking for it". No one would ever think about applying this standard to men. If a man happened to wear tight pants no one would ever think he was asking to be assaulted, or that he was sending "mixed messages". Consent has nothing to do with what you wear or how you dress.

Richard in New Brunswick
said

I agree that "no" means "no." I agree that any man who runs that red light should suffer the legal consequences. It's the amber light that is the problem with intercourse as with intersections. I think the law needs strengthening - no, not the punishment for the rapist but for women who first consent and then decide otherwise, or those who go all the way and then afterwards, having fits of "buyers remorse," decide the only way to repair the damage to their psyches and perhaps reputation is to lay charges. Women need to understand that arousing a heterosexually active male is often very easy. The "de-arousing" before climax is quite another story. It's hard to find the "off" switch in the dark.

Marty in Ottawa
said

This judge should be thrown out. I don't care if the woman is naked. It's an assault. This is black and white. What a bunch of bs. Women will always dress provocatively to attract guys. Do you really want women today to dress like in their '50s? Or how about the way the dress in Saudi Arabia? I'm in shock by this loser judge. It's SO clear. I like the comparison someone posted about cash on the front seat of the car although I think there's a huge different between stealing cash and raping someone. Women like to dress for us and get us going. But, it doesn't mean they want to be touched.If the girl said "NO" or clearly was pushing the guy away, the guy STOPS. I also hate the pack mentality. Men tend to me weak that way. They follow the pack. Take 10 men and one woman in a gang rape scenario. They all follow the first one to make the assault. Hats off to any guy who has the strength and courage to stop anything like that before it starts. Stop following your friends - stand up for your beliefs and yes, you might be excited by basic instincts - deal with it and stand up for what's right.It's easy to follow the pack, it takes real strength of character to turn on your friends / buddies to stop a horrible act.Martin

Kathleen
said

Women - we need to get together on this one and demand that all police officers, judges, etc. be charged with legal discrimination in cases such as this (regardless of their position in society). A man can dress as a slut and not suffer similar consequences in court or in public - why should a woman. Women have been put forth in all media for far too long as nothing short of pieces of meat where men can do as they please. All you have to do is look at a music video presently - especially rap. The industry puts women in scant clothing, glorifies them, shows them as being successful, sexy, RICH, etc. and then females get slammed by the powers that be if they don't realize that that sort of dress is actually inappropriate and potentially dangerous. I don't support 'inappropriate dress' or slut clothing as some have mentioned, however quit promoting it in the media, and quit biasing against women that choose to dress in that manner. If a sexual advance is made at a female, and she says NO - NO, means NO. Plain and simple! Do we have to send all those men back to kindergarden? Men need to start taking responsibility for their actions.

realist
said

I think the overall point is being missed here. Noone "deserves" to be raped, ever. But crimes aren't caused based on who's deserving or who's not. They are based on the perpetrator having the best chance of acheiving the desired result. if I am a robber, and there's a guy to the left of me flaunting a big wad of cash and a rolex, and the guy left of me is wearing tattered cheap clothes, who do think I would pick to rob? The rapist is going to go for the easiest target - the drunk girl, the solo girl, the girl with the tiny skirt and no bra - less work than getting pants off, right? As I said, noone DESERVES to be raped, and those that do rape should be severely punished. But we do not live in a perfect world, so until we do, as women, you need to be careful. That doesn't meaning living in a turtleneck and iron undies for the rest of your life - it just means being aware of your surroundings and partying responsibly. And yes, I know that some women are raped no matter what they are wearing, just as some people are robbed even though they only have 5 bucks on them. But that doesn't mean its a good idea to walk down the street in a dress made of 100 dollar bills.

realist
said

In theory you should be able to leave your house and car unlocked at all times, because "noone deserves to be robbed." Crimes aren't about who deserves it or who doesn't. They are about who is the easiest target. If you leave your house and car unlocked, you are the easier target than the person who got the alarm system and attack dog. If you let a stranger get a drink for you at a bar, you are an easier target for the date rape drug than the person who got their own drink and held on to it. It has nothing to do with fairness. Yes, you SHOULD be able to go out buck naked and not be hurt, just like you SHOULD be able to leave your house unlocked with a stack of cash on the table and have it not be stolen. But life isn't fair, and in this world, we have to take percautions.

Sakmike
said

@ Amber. So what you're saying is that you can break the law if you think it's OK. I'll just talk on my phone will I drive! I'll break the window to steal the money! Are these the enticements you're talking about and saying it's OK. When you know you're about to break the law and still do it. Your quilty. Not the booze, drugs or enticement.

Andy
said

@Amber. Right on. Most people wouldn't break into the car. But it only takes one and that person is usually the lowest common denominator. Why take the chance? Too bad we jump on the judge for having some common sense to raise the issue.

Michelle
said

I agree with the idea that how you dress and act can atrack the attention of those looking for a victim. However, NO is still NO!

Judge was Right an we all know it
said

What many girls fail to realize is: 95% of the guys out there are fine and will accept a no means no. 5% of the guys out there will not accept it and yes, your dress is a cue for them to get you. The man was charged and convicted of RAPE. The judge only pointed out he obvious. People need to wake up that at a BAR, the 5% of the scum increases now to 20% due to alcohol. This isn't rocket science, just common sense.

Genny
said

I can't believe what I'm reading in some of the comments made here. You should be ashamed of yourselves for thinking such a way, let alone putting it in writting for everyone to see. It doesn't matter how someone is dressed. NO MEANS NO PERIOD!

Mel
said

This attitude is disgusting.Rape is rape!!!I don't care if she was walking up and down the street buck naked. No means no!!!

Charles Marion
said

well I have to admit that I ogle women in scant clothing many times....I do look at them a whole lot more than someone wearing a turtleneck...I can control my emotions......but obviously alot of guys cant!.....thats all Im saying.....so dress as you please....and to all the sexy dressed women out there......how can you not expect all of us men not to stare you down...is this not what you wanted in the 1st place?...heck, Im going to start walking around in my speedo....I dont think and I dont expect anyone will look at me.....with my luck, it would probably be some guy staring at me! lol.....basically its all the dog men you have to watch out for when you decide to dress yourself

A Parent
said

While I don�t agree with the lightness of the sentence in this case, I am happy to see that common sense and truth are starting to seep through the cracks of political correctness. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck� if you dress like a bum, expect to be treated like a bum� if you dress like a 'slut'� then expect to be treated like one too. I have a daughter, and there is no way I would let her leave the house looking like some of the tramps out there on the street. Ladies, take a look at how you are dressed, and consider how a mentally ill man might view you. We need to protect ourselves, and lower the potential of something bad happening. While you cannot stop all cases of sexual assault, you can at least lower the probability. I applaud the police officer who told these young women the truth, and this judge who stood by his interpretation of the events. If you dress to grab the attention of those you find desirable, remember that those you do not will also desire you! Thought of the day: the difference between being romantically pursued and stalked is whether you like the guy! I wonder how many thumbs down I will get� lol.

CYL
said

time to get rid of this judge

Anne
said

This is frightening for myself and every other female out there.
Is there no oversight body for these judges? This man needs to be removed from the bench immediately as he obviously does not understand the "law".
A sad, sad day for Canadian citizens.

Jason from London
said

I think the line needs to be made clear in situations like this. Certainly, no means no--no matter what the woman is wearing, nobody has the right to violate her and claim it was the clothing. It is going to get our attention, though. It's how we govern our behaviour that matters, and this judge evidently struggles with the fact that a dressed-up woman isn't at fault when men act criminally.

Amber
said

I view this no different than someone breaking into my car because I leave a stack of cash on the front seat. Yes, the person who breaks into my car has committed an illegal act and should be punished. But common sense will tell you that it was my fault for leaving the money there in plain sight.

Lz in Edmonton
said

Okay, no means no that I agree with. But common sense plays a factor too. If you are silly enough to where a tanktop and a short skirt, go to a bar and then show yourself off to a bunch of alcohol fueled fools, you are now dealing with the lowest common denominator of human control? Do you then expect a safe ride home from a stranger you agreed to get in the car with? The man was charged with Rape, but a measure of responsibility seems to be lacking on the victim part.

Paul ~ Kitchener
said

This judge is not playing with a full deck ~ to say just the least. Women never get the rightful justice they need from the courts in cases of "SEX". Be it rape or molestation or abuse ~ they don't get "JUSTICE". Any scum bag male, that hurts, or brings any distress to a female, (be it child or tenn or woman), should get the full strength of the law, and jail time, of no less than 3 years be met out. This Liberal Society is just gone far enough and its time for we the people to loudly fight back . Our Justice Minister Mr. Nickelson, is trying hard to get revisions to the Justice System, but, to no avail because of the 3 - Stooges - (ignorant oppostions). We need to find a new way to sit judges onto the bench ~ not appointment for life ~ but, elected by we the people. Then and only then will be have the judges accountable to us and not sit and live out their personal interpretation of the law. Let all men of this country, start standing up for our wonderful ladies & girls. It won't belong until Canadian girls & women are in the same calss as "Islamic Females" - (God Forbid) !

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