Mounties defend their actions in conflict with Elliott

The host of CTV's Power Play says it appears the alleged abuse was widespread and systemic, and the next step will be to improve morale throughout the force.

Extended: Raf Souccar, deputy commissioner

The RCMP deputy commissioner testifies before a House of Commons committee. Souccar says William Elliott treated staff disrespectfully and he was forced to take a stand against the RCMP Commissioner.

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Raf Souccar, the former deputy commissioner of federal and international policing, testifies before a House of Commons committee in Ottawa, Tuesday, Feb. 8, 2011.

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CTV.ca News Staff

Date: Tue. Feb. 8 2011 8:05 PM ET

Two prominent critics of RCMP Commissioner William Elliott have defended their efforts to reach out to the government during a conflict with their civilian boss last summer.

Raf Souccar, the former deputy commissioner of federal and international policing, said he was forced to take a stand against Elliott's bullying after morale within the senior ranks of the RCMP hit an all-time low.

Souccar told a House of Commons committee Tuesday that Elliott treated his subordinates with "disrespect" and that RCMP staff held concerns about his behaviour well before a conflict erupted last summer.

The veteran Mountie said that attempts were made to work out the problems with Elliott, but ultimately that was not possible.

"Ideally, you work things out inside the organization. You lock the doors, you sit down, you look each other in the eye and you deal with matters face-to-face," Souccar told the committee Tuesday.

"That was tried. I know it was tried by me, I know it was tried by many other senior managers in the organization, to the point that it left no option but to go outside the organization to the very people that put him (Elliott) in."

News of the conflict eventually became public and the Conservative government paid former CSIS director Reid Morden to do a "workplace assessment" of the senior RCMP management.

Souccar said the situation "got worse once it got into the media," as tension continued to build inside RCMP headquarters. And he denied leaking the story to the media.

In the end, the government stuck with Elliott, though Morden's report indicated that that there was much frustration in the senior ranks with regard to the slow pace of change within the organization.

In the ensuing months, Elliott announced a slew of changes within the senior RCMP management as many top Mounties retired. In November, the commissioner announced that Souccar -- who was not yet retiring -- was being replaced in his job.

A news release said Souccar was awaiting his "next assignment" at that time.

Souccar told the committee that he doesn't have an office at the RCMP.

Souccar testified before the committee along with Mike McDonell, a former assistant commissioner who retired from the RCMP last year after 35 years with the force.

An Access to Information request by the The Canadian Press last year showed that McDonell made a formal complaint about Elliott to Public Safety Minister Vic Toews in July of last year.

McDonell told the committee that he wrote the letter after being denied an "exit interview," in which he hoped to discuss his concerns.

Souccar told the committee Tuesday that he never personally contacted Toews about the issues staff were having with the commissioner. But he did speak with a member of the Privy Council Office and several other senior government staffers.

After leaving the RCMP, McDonell took a position with the Ontario Provincial Police. He is currently the commander of the OPP's Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry detachment.

Several committee members thanked McDonell and Souccar for appearing before the committee, to speak about the problems they saw in the senior RCMP ranks.

NDP public safety critic Don Davies even wrote about the testimony on Twitter from inside the hearing, saying Souccar was "bravely testifying" about the behaviour of the RCMP commissioner.

The testimony that took place Tuesday morning occurred just days after Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced that Elliott will be leaving his job within a few months.

On Friday, Harper said the government "will launch a comprehensive selection process" to pick the next RCMP commissioner, though many people -- including Elliott himself -- say the best choice would be a person with policing experience, as opposed to another civilian.

"If it was up to me, I would rather, personally, see a member of the RCMP take on this job," Elliott told the Globe and Mail in an interview that was published Tuesday.

Elliott has held the top Mountie post since July 2007. He is the RCMP's first-ever civilian commissioner.

When speaking before the committee Tuesday, Souccar also voiced support for a commissioner with policing experience.

With files from The Canadian Press

Comments are now closed for this story

Jerry in Calgary
said
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Abuse, whether it be of the form of physical, mental or verbal nature should never be tolerated in society no matter where it comes from or from whom. As the police so often say and repeat to us, the public.....ZERO TOLERANCE. The RCMP must practice what they preach. That rule must apply to all areas of society with no exceptions...especially in the RCMP. The punishement should be sufficiently adequate so as to serve a very clear message to others. Abuse is a cruelty of which there is no measurering stick long enough to measure the damages that are caused to the person at the receiving end of that abuse. If the allegations and/or complaints should be found to be credible... and I would find it difficult to believe that these complainst and allegations would NOT BE FOUND TO BE SO, based on the identity of the persons doing the complaining, the commissioner must be fired.......IMMEDIATELY. The government has a duty and obligation to the citizens of Canada to.....SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE.

Michael from Toronto
said
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It is interesting to note this whole affair has been so cloaked in non-specifics and vagueness that IMO, no layman can make any fair assessment or in fact, make any assessment at all of the vague claims and counterclaims. I would not be surprised that this lack of clarity is in fact part of the problem with the RCMP and its management. Honestly, I really don't know what the heck is going on with the RCMP.

sinbad
said
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What is there that is defensible:The senior ranks wouldn't accept an outside, and they chose to deliberately disloyal to their commander.Enough said.

reg47204
said
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Not sure what history lesson folks are all on about the RCMP being modelled on the military. The NWMP may have been comprised of many former military folk among its first 'in-ranks' and many members of the NWMP.RNWMP/RCMP have served in theater and mil operations, but Sir John A. modelled them after the Royal Irish Constabulary.Like all things, do your fact-checking before you blather an erroneous opinion. Someone who doesn't know better might believe it. Or worse, someone who DOES know better might call you on your ignorance.

Gordon in Sarnia
said
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Poor wittle sufferin' mounties.The RCMP has turned into a gaggle suck holes.

Piesquared
said
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I believe that the commissioner should be someone who is promoted through the ranks. Surely there is a member in the thousands of RCMP that is competent, honest and respected enough to do the job. The caveat is that the hiring has to be based on qualifications and not gender based affirmative action type hiring. Also, the candidate cannot be a political boot-licker.

Prof. Pye Chartt
said
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Forgive me, George, but I think that your partisan passion (and contempt for all things "Conservative") has put you off course. My comment actually noted the blatant IRONY in the very fact that a Conservative government PROGRESSIVELY appointed, and stood behind, a civilian to head the RCMP and, yet, ultimately, the Liberals and NDP (who, ideologically, love the idea) are now effectively making Mr. Elliot out to be a counterproductive, mean-spirited, semi-incompetent boob. Ridiculous political games, and an attempt to score silly points. While I clearly indicated that Mr. Souccar and Mr. McDonell themselves "MAY" have been a part of the problem (who knows?), you, hypocritically, have claimed the unfounded notion -- by direct implication -- that Mr. Elliot wasn't likely capable of doing the job, by virtue of his non-RCMP, "outsider" status. Is that assessment fair and just? Nope. Not at all. Nobody's reinventing anything on this side, George. "Wise readers" know that some folks wear left-wing partisan blinders that lead them astray. Take care.

peter in MB
said
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@ Niagara George. King Steve as you put it appointed and outsider �William Elliott� because there has been lots of complaints by law abiding citizens over the years of deplorable Jack booted thuggish and down right illegal actions by the RCMP. Actions like in 1995 At Gustafsen Lake in British Columbia where para-military forces of the RCMP with military weapons and armaments where sent in and shot the place up with M16�s and Browning .50 Caliber Heavy Machine Guns. This and other like such incidents over the years raises the question as to why the RCMP needs to have military hardware and be better armed and equipped then the Canadian Armed forces and have behave like the Gestapo.

J.C.
said
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Since their structure is based on military etc., maybe they should have an experienced military man head their force, as commissioner. After all they do work with the military a lot. Whichever they choose it will have to be someone with strong ethics and the ability to buildup the morale as well as a good deal of experience handling people along with all the other requirements of the job.

Scott (in Wild Rose Alliance Country)
said
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In part, the RCMP are ticked that they got a civilian as the head of their department (just like the Dept of Nat'l Defence), and senior Mounties just couldn't handle the change and never got over it.

scott
said
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From what I have read and seen regarding the RCMP, their biggest problem is that they themselves have become a gang with the corresponding gang attitude. Until the RCMP rid themselves of this see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil mentallity, they will continue to lose respectability and trust by canadians. It is brutally obvious that the RCMP must be kept seperate from both political interference and corruption. Keep in mind that the RCMP answer directly to the Prime ministers's office and no one else.

Jim - North Saanich, BC
said
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I believe that everyone in Canada should read Paul Palango's treatise on the RCMP titled "Dispersing the Fog". While some already view it as an unfair critique of this Canadian "Icon", I think the book is a very accurate summary of the problems the RCMP faces within and I have to seriously wonder if there is a means of solving those problems given its longstanding internal "culture".

No doubt offending many, my view of the RCMP over the past 50 years is that it has become overly large, highly bureaucratic and under the 'RCMP Act' is accountable to absolutely no one except the Commissioner. It has become an organization where corruption, obfuscation and outright pervarication are an integral part of the "culture" and that has come about as the RCMP has evolved from a small federal policing body to what it is today. It is my view that invariably organizational culture evolves from the top down and I seriously doubt that even divine intervention today in the affairs of the RCMP can change a "culture" such has evolved over many, many years. I have no doubt that the outcries against Mr. Elliot from within are from those who strenuously object to the imposition of ANY cultural change.

I am one of many in British Columbia calling for the elimination of the RCMP as a local and provincial policing force for the reasons cited above. It's day in the sun is long over and there is no changing that.

Niagara George
said
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@Pye Chartt... Interesting how the RCMP has always been led by a police officer who has worked his/her way up through the ranks. That continued through all the years of Liberal governments. Once King Steve and the neoCons were established they decided the police should be led by an outsider with absolutely no experience in policing matters. Somehow the Professor has taken those facts and reinvented them to suggest the Liberals and NDP wanted an outsider in leadership. Pye Chartt's right-wing biased blinders are getting the best of him. Now he is rewriting history with the news still fresh and sitting right here in front of us. Typically he even attacks the insider officers when he knows absolutely nothing about them or their intentions. Wise readers will know that whistle blowers do not exist in the Conservative world. There, they are called trouble-makers who don't know their place. This is just one more hint at what Canada could be like if the King should ever get the majority he so desperately wants.

Robert
said
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Susan says the "The RCMP is rotten from its roots right to the top." It would be nice if she would explain what she means rather than just mouthing platitudes and meaningless rhetoric. Change is needed but to say the Force is "rotten" is rather over-the-top. When you are constantly under the microscope, even the tiniest speck seems overly enlarged. The Force is not perfect, nor is it rotten through-and-through.

Susan
said
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Sadly, I don't see any "white hats" in this story. A bullying, arrogant Ottawa bureaucrat picking on an incompetent, out-of-touch police force. The RCMP is in such a sad state I think it's time the whole mess of an organization was just disbanded. I'd have a lot more faith in municipal or provincial police who are actually answerable to the people. The RCMP is rotten from its roots right to the top.

George V.
said
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Elliott was never accepted as the chief by the RCMP rank and file from the day he was appointed,he was viewed as a civilian, He did not work his way up inside the police organization, he was considered an outsider. Nothing that Elliott did met with the approval of the force. The rank and file had only one goal and purpose in mind, that was to have him removed from the job. As it has been said for many years about the RCMP they always get their man. This has again been proven today. They got their way. He has been removed.

Prof. Pye Chartt
said
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It's hard to imagine that civilian Elliot was "welcome" at the RCMP, and easy to imagine that some major resentment existed in the upper ranks even before he planted his butt in the Commissioner's chair for the first time. Though being touted as some class of informative heroes by the self-interested gumbies in the NDP and Liberal camps (who, as left-wingers, LOVE the idea of a civilian being in charge of a policing authority because it APPEARS to address a misguided public-accountability issue), it may well be that Souccar and McDonell were an integral part of the problem and not the solution. Undoubtedly, Elliot got fed up with the whiney bull-crap and begged PM Harper to find somebody else, especially after being turned into a villain in public. Understandable.

Anne M
said
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What the RCMP need is to bring in a group from "The New Scotland Yard" to identify problems and make changes. These people know what "change " means. If another Mountie is appointed we will have the same culture of entitlement and corruption, and change will never come to fruition.

Peter in MB
said
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The job of RCMP Commissioner is that of a double edged sword. If you put in a person from the ranks of the RCMP the Ranks will put presser on the Commissioner to look the other way when officers do things that they should not be doing. If you put in a civilian like William Elliott the ranks will see him as a treat to the "old boys club" and bully and intimidate them.

reg47204
said
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Some comments have hit the nail on the head: there�s a general dysfunction in the upper (&some middle and lower) echelons of the Force. It didn�t start with Elliot, though he was the first (and likely only) non-Mountie to experience it firsthand. He�s getting a taste of what may be a Mountie tradition - like earning your stetson and highbrowns in training. Zaccardelli politically torpedoed his predecessor. Any hope for change under GZ was short-lived. He showed himself to be a snake par excellence; more snakes stir in the grass now.There are some even darker days ahead for the org and for Canada as the defects and deterioration spread and manifest without foreseen end. The irony is that this little escapade really highlights the hypocrisy within the Force. Rank and file have NO "real" (and by real I mean formal change could happen) process to air grievances against management. Doing so likely means your career is about to hit the skids or go a different (negative) direction. Taking your case to the media would mean a complete circling of the wagons and absolute certainty that your career just came to a halt. That is, of course, if the media wanted to touch you in the first place (journalists are fickle as to which 'truths' they are willing to bring to light). The structure, rules and culture all need to change. A rewrite to the RCMP Act itself is long overdue. Oh, and a general purge of those who still live under the umbrella of the old guard mentality. Mind you, from what has been happening lately, it looks like what�s coming out of Depot these days ain't that hot, either. Good luck with whoever you get to run the sinking ship of Serge next. I am 10-7 this post.

4 cop family one on honour roll
said
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Solution:To make the RCMP proud and effective again, take more time to foster good leaders out of competent police officers within.Don't bring in a 'shake-em-up' civilian incompetent leader with also no police experience because of some bad situations.What a stupid stupid move! It has actually made the situation much worse.

Pauly
said
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How dare anyone suggest another lowly civilian non-cop lead this disfunctional "force". If i'd been at the head of this organization, I woulda likely completely lost my cool and blown a fuse while trying to manage one absolute screw-up after another as well. We see the absence of responsibility and civil treatment from our little local police force(Ottawa)...one can only imagine the massive collective ego within our national force...getting too big for our riding breeches, are we ?

Glenn C
said
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I don't believe that you can totally blame one person, but Mr. Zak does make a good case for that. The outfit needs someone who can be given a fair shake, possibly someone who has come up through the ranks. Don't choose them because they of gender or face-fits etc etc, choose them because they can actually do the job properly! That way we don't have to keep going through this evey verse end.

You Dissing Me
said
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He was dissing me and I didn't feel good about my person. What is with these guys? A bunch of 12 year olds having hissy fits? These are the calculating, cool under pressure, discerning professionals in charge of the security of a nation? "He said, he said"

DoitRight
said
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Problems with the RCMP dated way back before Mr. Elliot got appointed. So the problems were with the senior management before Mr. Elliot got on board. These included Mr. Souccar & all the disgruntled senior officers.
Mr. Elliot was there and tried to affect changes that affected those who sticked with the "sweep under the carpet" ways. From the outside, we don't know who's wrong or right but the changes are needed way before Mr. Elliot came on board...blaming all on Mr. Elliot is not totally right.

Michael
said
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Every time these politicians appoint their choice to run the RCMP it leads to big trouble.

Keith
said
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So are we to believe that these two senior individuals were and are not part of the problem? Are we to believe that there is not a problem within top leadership of the RCMP? Maybe we should ask the Constable(s) what they think of their leadership. This is a classic case of "I'm not the problem the new guy is." Well I can tell you the problem is within and it will take an outsider to fix.

baeto
said
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Commissioner Elliot has completed the task he was asked to do. He has brought in a number of changes that will allow the next commissioner to carry on the process. Time to look forward and not back!

JoJo
said
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Hosni Murbarak might be ready to consider on offer of the top job ... at the right price. If he's methods are a little too heavy handed, consider instead Regis Philbin who also is about to become available and should keep 'em smilin' in those serious board room meetings about national crime waves an all. Whatever the boys in Red need ...

Charles
said
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The RCMP have needed better leadership for a long time now. Their culture of cover-up and unwillingness to take responsibility needs to change. Elliott may not have been the total solution but he did help by getting rid of some of the bad senior managers like Souccar. I don't care if the new head person has a police background or not - just find a good one.

Charlie in NS
said
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Having read about the antics of the RCMP in general & the hierarchy of the organization over the past number of years, I am hard pressed to believe anything this pair have to say. If it wasn't witnessed by someone outside the organization, then it never took place as far as I'm concerned.

Bob,Calgary
said
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To my mind there is nothing so special about the RCMP that warrants only considering an RCMP officer or former officer for the top job. In fact, the RCMP has become so dysfunctional that one wonders if there is some kind of strange cultural bias within the ranks that precludes any kind of substantive change. Having Committees of MPs probe into what went wrong with the appointment of Elliot seems to be of little help because these Committees have as their prime objective embarassing the sitting government. It would make sense to me to form a selection Committee of three members or so to find a new Commissioner. The Committee could be made up of a practising lawyer, a successful businessman and a member of the general public. These parliamentary committees are the most counterproductive venues ever invented for getting anything substantive accomplished. As usual our parliament can take any problem and build it up to an unsurmountable difficulty with their petty politics and mindnuming bureaucracy.

Purge the politics
said
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Let's just get on with it and get the RCMP back on track. Giuliano Zaccardelli destroyed the morale of the RCMP and much more and was nothing but a Chretien puppet. Now we have wasted 3 more years diddling around with this bureaucrat bully who should NEVER have been appointed in the first place. Our force needs true leadership from within which it hasn't had for years and there are people to do the job if the politicians would just keep their hands and agenda off our national police force the public would be better served.

Gomtor
said
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Everyone makes a mistake, and appointing Mr. Elliott to head up the Mounties was a colossal one. First because he is a civilian with no grassroots understanding of the force and secondly his management style. I am sure the Mounties have enough well qualified officers with sound management experience and on-the-job insight to lead the force back to its original glory. I have great respect for the RCMP and congratulate them on a job well done under difficult and dangerous circumstances and, sometimes, hostile public opinion.

Pat
said
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The RCMP has had problems for years so sometimes an "outsider" can help. They are tough enough to taser some one but some one yells at them and they their feelings are hurt and they keel over like a drunken sailor. They have turned into a bunch of sissies.

Paul ~ Kitchener
said
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Here is a "Real Life" example, of government interference, into the National Police Force (R.C.M.P.) First off, the appointment of Mr. Elliott was a 100% mistake ~ why ~ You can't have a civilian, non-police person, head any Police Force.
This situation brought havoc, and disorder to this force, & may take years to ever build back to its original self. The head of this force, or any police force, should be through a system of advancement within the force, with recommendations for Deputy, or Chief, by the police team to the government Minister for appointment. The police force knows their personnel and know who best can head their group so let them make the choice for later government appointment. Let police do police work, and let politicians do political work (Lord knows they don't get much right). A good police officer is a happy police officer ~ otherwise you got a lot of problems.

Time for Change
said
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We don't need a commons committee to determine the fate of Mr. Elliott. These committees remind me of a camel... a horse designed by a committee. Elliott's reputation alone for his harsh managerial behavior is enough to begin the replacement process and it should start now. Our RCMP has come under enough scrutiny and needs a solid hand on the tiller to bring the force up to speed and it isnt getting nor will it get done so long as an outsider is running the show.

simon in Montreal
said
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I think it's time we bring back Chief Supt. Marty Cheliak. By now he should have had enough French immersion Training. He would be the best candidate for the job, in my opinion.

Bob fr Pet
said
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I agree they should hire a Mountie or at the very least, Ex Mountie. It would be like having a Civilian as CDS in the military, they wouldn't know squat about military tactics. which could be very dangerous for the troops. Thus also very bad for the RCMP to do their "policing" as directed by a total civilian.

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