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Liberals, Tories trade shots over carbon tax
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Mon. Jun. 9 2008 9:10 PM ET
Cries of lies and tax hikes were hurled across the House of Commons as the Liberals and Conservatives clashed over a policy that hasn't even been announced yet.
"When are the Conservatives going to stop insulting Canadians and offer a real plan to tackle climate change instead of cartoons and a campaign of lies," asked Liberal Leader Stephane Dion on Monday.
He was referring to a new Tory ad campaign about the Liberals' looming carbon tax proposal -- a policy that has yet to be released.
Jason Kenney, secretary of state for multiculturalism and the Canadian identity, retorted that the Liberal plan would be a massive tax grab.
"Even while gas prices are going up, he wants to force them higher, with higher taxes to pay for the billions of dollars of unbudgeted promises," he said as some Tory MPs held up postcards from the campaign talking about Dion's "tax on everything."
Some reports have indicated the tax won't apply to gasoline.
Speaker Peter Milliken rebuked Dion for using the word "lie" in his questions.
Deputy Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff said in the government's regulations for greenhouse gases, it admits that higher energy costs will result for consumers.
"Nowhere does the Conservative plan propose to help seniors and low-income Canadians bear those costs. Our plan will," he said.
"When will the 'little grease spot' (from the ad) start telling the truth?" Ignatieff asked.
Kenney noted Ignatieff, unlike Dion, had previously supported a carbon tax.
The Liberal caucus is already showing some public divisions over the timing of the carbon tax plan.
In a blog posting, Liberal MP Garth Turner slams the Tories for their "pathetic and disappointing" ads but he says the tax is "too crucial to bring forth at the wrong time."
Turner said there are two possible moves for the Liberals in response to the ads.
"The damn-the-torpedoes response would be to push ahead simply because this is the right thing to do for our wasteful, oil-drunk society and collective future," said Turner.
"The political reaction would be to modify and corrupt the plan to address worries of rising energy costs and pissed-off voter groups. Since Stephane Dion is one of the most principled people I have encountered in public life, and yet a national party leader who needs support, I don't know the outcome."
But he said the "avalanche" of emails and blog comments he's received were telling.
"Either this is not the time for altruism, with $140-a-barrel oil, or proponents of the Green Shift have simply not articulated their vision," said Turner.
'Political games'
Ottawa Liberal MP David McGuinty, the opposition's environment critic, said he "hopes the ads run every 15 minutes" so Canadians are reminded of what he sees as the Conservative government's shady political tactics.
"If the Conservatives want to race to the bottom they are OK to do so," he told CTV Newsnet on Monday. "Last week in Canada we lost about 2,000 high-paying jobs (at General Motors) and this is what the prime minister is doing with his time and energy.
"They're playing political games with the future of our climate and our atmosphere and it's not surprising at all."
In the plan, tax would be levied on polluting items but income tax would be reduced, said McGuinty. That means Canadians choosing to drive less would have more money to spend otherwise.
Green Party Leader Elizabeth May supports the idea and thinks a carbon tax is one of the few ways to encourage Canadians to get used to oil's ever-increasing price tag.
"It is bold. It does take leadership," she said. "The reason the prices at the pump are going up is because we're at the end of cheap fossil fuels... I think that there's never a bad time to tell Canadians the truth."
CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife said the Tories are introducing the ads now because gas prices are so high and people are heading into their summer vacation.
"We know that the (Liberal) caucus is really divided about it (the carbon tax) but nobody has really publicly come out and talked about it but now we're starting to see that these Tory attack ads are having their effect," Fife said Monday.
The ads will run in Toronto and other parts of southern Ontario, and will be accompanied by standard radio ads, t-shirts, postcards and other materials.
The ads feature what appears to be a talking smudge of oil on a gas pump, with a van in the background.
One of the 15-second spots says:
"(Liberal Leader) Stephane Dion said he wasn't going to introduce a carbon tax. But now he is. Yet another flip-flop."
There are three such "fuelcast" ads at the website willyoubetricked.ca.
However, Fuelcast, the company that operates the ad system, said Monday it won't run the Conservative ads at the pumps because it has a policy against political advertising.
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But they probably get straight As for computer games and TV.
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Comments are now closed for this story
Dan
said
RRO
said
A tax on carbon will increase the cost of food, clothing, and anything else that comes to us on trucks (trucking companies will be paying through the nose), power, water, heating will all increase in cost.
Dion is misrepresenting the facts about what is carbon tax will cost. Hit will hit lower and middle income families the hardest.When you mess with something as fundamental as fuel it has a ripple effect across all areas.
The Conservatives are mearly pointing out what members of Dion's own party think about this idea.
I am all for this idea when there are reliable, efficent alternative available but so far there isn't. Wind power causes enviromental shifts where ever they are located. Solar is space intensive, ethinol takes as much gas as is produces, hydro works but only where there is sources, Coal is just as bad. And everyone is afraid of Nuclear.
The Hybrid are just as enviromentally devestating as anything. There batteries are copper intensive, and copper mining is very enviromentally devestating. And they release increased emmissions, all they do is give better fuel millage.
Plus Dion hasn't said how he plans to spend this tax grab. Will it go into another "program" where Liberal party supporters can steal there fair share.
Dion makes the Martin and Chretien years look wonderful by comparrison.
Ki-Som
said
Dan From Toronto
said
I guess Harper had to drop leadership attack ads because he is no leader.
If the tables were turned the conservatives would be suing the liberals.
JP
said
" GROW UP KIDS"
Harper- Call an ELECTION and let the people decide and stop you childish behaviour
Gary Wilson
said
Gary Wilson
said
And so we get posters like David who says "he'll never vote for a new tax no matter how they explain it."
Of course if David took the time to understand it, he'd realize a rev neutral carbon tax will result in lower income tax for the vast majority of Canadians (and most likely him) far greater than any increase in gas prices. It's a shift in tax from income to consumption and pollution and that's where our entire tax system NEEDS to go.
bren
said
Alex Nelson
said
Tim
said
Chris
said
Carey
said
Pete Kirby
said
Mike Webster
said
Ed
said
I still think you're the best thing that ever happened to the Conservatives. Your actions(smart or otherwise) always support the Conservative policies. You're a real sly one. Keep up the good work the Con's need you.
Jay
said
Brooke Allen Vaughan
said
cb
said
If the responses here and elswhere are truly representative of Canadians then:
Canada will sell fuel
USA will become environmental innovators
We are what we are.
Fred Andersen
said
Do I say, "it is just the prime minister and it is ok for him to pedal hate, but don't you dare think badly of anyone because you can go to jail?"
What I do hate is the haters. If they haven't got a good program, don't knock the other guy. Personally, I think we should nationalize oil and gas, dump nafta and become a country for Canadians for once.
gerry
said
take his carbon tax, along with his carbon footprint,
snap a leash on Kyoto and
go for a walk in a snowstorm. While he's at it, take the other two disciples with him...Professor Ignatieff and Mr. Social Contract...
Bob Rae.
karra
said
kris pittman
said
Dan
said
Les J
said
Until quite recently, energy and mining companies paid a HIGHER rate of taxes than EVERY other corporation in Canada. This does NOT include royalties, either, just corporate taxes.
And as for Harper being in the pocket of Big Oil...well, that would explain why he yanked Income Trust Status from oil companies. Oil companies LOVE to be ****ed over.
Jeff
said
I'm 43 and never will I ever be a car owner and that's by choice.
Ray in Saskatchewan
said
Wally
said
I simply cannot believe that adults in power are such pathological liars and I'm so disgusted that ANY Canadian would accept it. How can any of you wearing that lie of a yellow t-shirt sleep at night? You're destroying my country.
The only thing truth about those t-shirts is that the Tories, as usual, have favoured being YELLOW.
Andrew Campbell
said
This government is full of the most despicable people I have ever seen. When questionned on any issue, they howl, bark, scream, growl, make up stories, anything they can do to distract people from all the troubles that constantly surround them. Canadians are much smarter than the Conservatives think and will not be bought by misleasding advertising paid for with their own tax dollars!
Rav
said
Mr. Elitist Dion should say no to taxing Canadians to DEATH!
Eric
said
These are the people we elect???
I'd rather have George Bush. (There is just a weeee bit of scarcasm in that).
PATHETIC!!!
The Robber Baron
said
Todd
said
The best way to get people to change their behaviour is to let the market take care of it self, the high prices are seeing a natural shift towards alternative energy sources, I know I don't need another TAX to get me to change my behaviour.
Wake Up Call
said
Dave in Que.
said
Matt in Ottawa
said
Move on to important issues already!
The 3 yr Conservaitve campaign for votes needs to end!
Phil
said
All taxes have to be administered, which means a bigger bureaucracy; THAT eats up most of the taxes paid. So how much would come back to the tax payers? Close to nothing.
No tax is "neutral". It is only "revenue neutral" because the bureaucracy absorbs it all, supplying nothing to the exchequer.
Western Petroleum Technologist
said
Fourat
said
je
said
If truly tax neutral; I am in support.
DWT
said
yeah still waiting here.
said
conservatives introduced the gst,chretian promised to axe the tax. I am still waiting.
and waiting
and waiting
Rod
said
Oh wait... who introduced the most punishing tax in history... the GST?
Wasn't it the CONSERVATIVES?!" Vincent just to educate you all the GST did was to be a more transparent tax than the hidden FST (Federal Sales Tax) that was not consistent and was not the same on most items.
bud
said
Besides, let us see every Liberal MP living in 1000 sq ft condo, driving a Smart car and vacationing at home. Do that for 3 or 4 years, then start your bloodsucking.
Oh yeah I forgot.
Entitled to your entitlements.
How uninformed and brainwashed do you have to be to beg for higher taxes? Wow.
Peter
said
The Voice of Reason
said
td
said
So on one hand the Liberals want the govt to do more to help manufacturers. They sure are going to need help if their taxes go up because they are naughty polluters aren't they. Or they can just relocate to a region/country with lower taxes.
As for comments about the Conservatives never lowering any taxes well just check the tax rates and GST. Not a lot but it surely lowered the total government revenues in YOUR favour.
Brian
said
Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis said the Liberal carbon tax will not affect people at the pumps.
"We will not be taxing gasoline. There will absolutely be no tax on gas," he told CTV Newsnet.
Does this mean NO taxes on gas or NO NEW taxes on gas??
waynestunes
said
Mitch
said
But moreover where is Dion’s leadership on this issue. Why did he allow this policy to leak before they were ready to defend it? Why is the only liberals defending this plan are two no name MP’s? Why are the liberals allowing themselves to be portrayed in midst of a downturn as tax and spend liberals? Wake up Dion the election is being fought right now and you are losing! Dion is not a leader!
Jean-Paul
said
Vincent
said
But, as conservative economic theory dictates, the market will regulate itself. As soon as cars like the Tesla Roadster and Chevy Volt are out that can be plugged in and changed for 1/8th of what it costs to run a car on gasoline, consumers will run away from oil screaming.
Thank god....
Thanks for being so greedy oil interests... you will hasten you own demise.
As consumers, thats good for us all.
Jaid
said
Right now with such small changes coming fast, lots of short term goals need to be placed. If you plan to go long, better pray that your hindsight is 100% or you're going to crash and burn.
Vincent
said
Oh wait... who introduced the most punishing tax in history... the GST?
Wasn't it the CONSERVATIVES?!
R D
said
joe
said
I am wondering what huge tax break oil companies receive? I always here this so where is the tax breaks, name it specifically?
I know they pay:
-50% royalities for every barrel they pump to stelmach
-Pay huge land purchases to the stelmach goverment
-Pay huge amounts of income tax to the federal goverment
-employees pay huge amounts of income taxes
-pay huge amounts of municipal taxes
-pay huge amounts of taxes on the fuel used transportation and drilling
Owen
said
I'm not aware of any government programs that don't cost taxpayers anything. A carbon tax is a lot more cost effective way of changing people's behaviour than subsidizing people through programs. In Manitoba, if we just charged the actual market price for electricity we would be able to export more and the whole province would be richer overall. Instead we subsidize it so that we waste more and lose money because of it. Taxing income less and pollution more makes perfect sense to me; a lot more sense than giving China a tax cut (i.e. the GST cut) and not cutting income taxes or taxes on Canadian businesses. The Liberals' tax proposals are a lot more responsible than the Tories', which are just designed to trick people and buy their votes.
Al in Cranbrook
said
Good idea, just what we need here, too, eh!
It's nothing more than a tax grab, plain and simple, to pay for pie-in-the-sky leftwing idiocy.
Mike L
said
This proposed solution by Dion is even worse than the problem.
...
said
Evan
said
Randolf
said
I also doubt any new federal tax program can be refined to the point of true revenue neutrality.
The rich have the means to become more energy efficient...to buy a hybrid, to go geothermal. They will pay low carbon taxes and less income tax. The poor will get an income tax break, but may not be have the means to reduce their emissions. I can't see how this plan does not shift the country's tax burden away from the wealthy and to the poor.
Waldo
said
Face reality people. We all must change our habits and become much more responsible. If we do this, carbon taxes and other green initiatives won't be neccessary.
Robin the Hood
said
Linda in Vancouver
said
I usually vote Liberal and even I know this tax suckes.But,the good things is,that if higher fuel prices remain,Canada's industry will shut down.we'll all be dirt poor,and then perhaps the boneheads who think using high prices as the only way to discourage excess consumption will get their heads out of the sand.
You'll get no argument out of me about Harper being something of a jackass.But one thing is clear already.Two years ago he did say higher energy costs would kill Canada's economy.You have to be pretty stupid not to be thinking there might be some truth to that.Even if you do think the environmental gain is worth the cost.
I,for one,do not.And I suspect many others will come to the same conclusion as poverty in Canada soars,industry shuts down,travel becomes impossible,food unaffordable,and freezing in the dark much more common.
Less taxes = people with more money = people with newer,more fuel efficient cars and homes.Farmers who can produce food at prices we can pay.
Poorer people drive old junkers which spew pollution and GHG's,eat poorly,can't afford sports or higher education for their kids,etc,etc.
No tax is neutral and no tax to any company is ot paid for by consumers.PERIOD.
BW
said
IK
said
A tax can't be revenue neutral - YES IT CAN!
Its quite simple actually, for the amount of incoming tax dollars you receive, you reduce another tax by the same amount - gov't doesn't make any more money, just moves the tax burden to a more effective place.
In fact, if you actually spent the time to think this through you would see that this is actually a tax decrease in the long run. Currently, the more money you make, the more taxes you pay with the income tax. Its a progressive tax system thats been around for generations. That being said, no one wants to strategically make less money in order pay less taxes. In the Liberal plan, as it has been hinted thus far as the whole plan is still not released, income taxes will be LOWERED!
Now, when it comes to the carbon tax, the more environmentally friendly and energy efficient companies become, the less carbon tax they will pay. It is an INCENTIVE to produce less harmful by-products and in turn pay LESS TAXES.
Since only days ago people, including those on these message boards, were saying we have to go down this more environmentally efficient road, this tax shift makes perfect sense.
TO CONLUDE:
- Income Tax DOWN
- Carbon Tax UP (Neutral to the Income Tax drop)
= Pay less in income tax
= Pay less in carbon tax as you reduce your output of emissions
= LESS TAX OVERALL as you become more environmentally friendly
Now tell me, as it stands right now, can anyone else out there directly lower their taxes by becoming more fuel efficient? Is anyone willing to take a pay cut to reduce their tax burden?
Income tax is technically a disincentive to make more money. This carbon tax is an incentive to produce less emissions which will allow you to control and lower your carbon tax burden.
Do the math before you speak - some times taxes are a good thing.
P.S. If all you conservatives posting on this board think that the answer is to lower taxes, lower taxes, and lower taxes more, let me remind you that in the United States George W. Bush brought in the biggest tax cuts in recent history and ended up with not one, but TWO major economic downturns/recessions - a feat that hasn't been accomplished by one President since the Great Depression Era.
Thanks G.W. - You made history with TWO economic downturns/recessions during your presidency!
Spence
said
bobby
said
"If it's neutral and no additional taxes up front to the consumer then so be it."
Sure - just like the gun registration law of the Liberals that was guaranteed to cost no more than $2 million - and has exceeded $2 BILLION!
Never trust a Liberal when it comes to taxation!
Ian from N.B.
said
Jim
said
The suggestion that it would be "revenue neutral" is laughable, they would soon find an emergency requirement to avoid the neutral part of it. When was the last time a liberal promise was carried out except where it involved sucking more tax money from your wallet?
They had many chances to cut our high taxes and they managed to avoid all the opportunities so as to fund the gun registry, HRDC , Adscam Cretians golf course and a thousand other areas of waste that we have yet to find out about.
This must be rejected for what it is, a big pile of liberal crap.
Soviet Canuckistan
said
Mark M
said
Revenue neutral my ***!! This is a horrible idea. Dion is grasping for any new revenues now that Harper has (AND RIGHTLY SO) dropped the surplus from sickening levels to an appropriate amount, any surplus is TOO MUCH TAXES. Dion is stuck and he knows it. He can't jack the GST back up without a revolt, income taxes are at a max that he thinks people will pay so he has to come up with something to refill his spending plans (universal day care, kyoto, and other scheams) so he comes up with this in the guise of the environment. Canada produces less than 2% of the worlds global warming gases yet Dion wants to drive our economy down the tubes!!! Does he think Canadians will just trust him and his party to be revenue neutral?!?!?
Let the US, India, China and all the other countries with unreal CO2 emmissions set the tone, or wait and see what Mr (change) Obama or McCain come up with! Our 2% is doing squat to the environment. Why do we have to go broke???
how about a tax on politicans instead (BST)?
said
Introducing a carbon tax at a time of recession is irresponsible and deplorable. It's fine and well to say Canada must do it's part to lower C02 emissions, but at what cost? You'll levy a tax on companies, whom will pass the cost on to the end consumer. End consumer has weakened purchasing power, and stops buying goods, which causes the next person to loose their job. All for lowering C02 emission. What about Bio-Fuel? Would we not save the planet faster by STOPPING (yes I said STOPPING) bio-fuel production? The devestation to the envrionment around the world, to produce cleaner fuel, is acutally making things worse by doubbling the C02 emissions. Look it up, there are many sources out there...
I'm all for a healthier planet as it benefits everyone, but to create a tax in the name of environmentalism is just greed and nothing more.
Jim
said
JPC
said
B. Lang
said
Jeff S.
said
After all the mud-slinging and smear tactics the Liberals have engaged in recently to damage the Government, this slap back has been overdue for some time. And just in time for Parliament to recess for the summer where the opposition will be out of the media spotlight.
And only 18 months at most until the next election...
PJR
said
Walter
said
Andy
said
It MAY be to the government, but simple economics tells you that any additional costs will be passed on, and no matter how the spinmeisters try an show it, we, the consumers will pay for it.
That is a reality.
john davis
said
Uh Oh.
People are paying less tax because they are environmentally conscous. How does the government then fill it's coffers? Well it'll have to introduce a new tax or raise the current ones punishing those who are "saving the planet".
ouifyg
said
Also Kendell, you said
"The proposed Carbon Tax will be a disaster. Look to Europe for proof!"
If Europe is a disaster, then what would you call what we have here. Our governments have the same problems as them with the economy, except they are making progress on the environment where as we are doing nothing. Look to Germany for a good example. Government subsidy in that country has turned the solar and wind industries into booming business! That's what we should be doing, it's good for everyone!
Anticonformist
said
How about come with the idea of building oil refineries in Canada and hell with the Al Gore types.
Jason Daniel Baker
said
Sask Man
said
This would be a brutal thing at this time.
Binky
said
Vince M
said
Did it reduce the amount of driving by any noticable amount?
James Boddy
said
Jay
said
I'm in no disagreeing with the fact we need to cut our emissions. Just don't try to spin us into believe a we can have a new tax without us paying.
Mark
said
I have a Dalton McGuinty "Health Premium" (not a tax I guess), a new surtax as a taxpayer in Toronto courtesy of David Miller and there is talk of more.
I'm paying $1.40/litre for gas at the pump. David Miller wants to close our pools in Toronto because we are cash strapped-but then at the same time spend hundreds of $ millions to flatten out the Gardiner Expressway. Don't tell me for a second that this project won't end up costing me more tax. Miller also wants to impose toll-roads-for roads already paid for by my TAX dollars.
...so no thanks Federal Liberals. I've had quite enough taxes as of late. I still remember Jean Chretien's "I'll axe the tax" slogan.
Seems it took Stephen Harper to drop that GST down-such a thing is foreign to a Liberal.
David Layte
said
David in Ontario
said
Dwight
said
RRO
said
It will costs more jobs in the auto industry.
It will raise the cost of food, because food has to be moved by trucks.
It will hit canadians hard every day in their regular lives.
This is the tax that will keep on giving it, to average middle and lower class canadians.
Another great gift from the Liberal Party, and their bungling leader Stephane Dion.
Jim
said
With inflation comes higher interest rates, higher dollar. Just what we need to stem a recession, eh.
The liberal answer to everything is taxes. Problem is, it won't achieve anything regarding reversing global warming. It just makes it more expensive to live.
DWB
said
Not to worry. Liberals put getting elected ahead of (their twisted) principle, so it won't happen. That's what Garth Turner is calling for. That's why he jumped parties.
Would Canadians really believe if you "carbon" tax oil companies, that it won't show in higher gas prices?
More Liberal dumbing down of Canadians.
Roadrobber
said
MHR
said
No increase or decrease - only for people who are wasteful with their lifestyle.
that is what we are target. I see no objection with USA'S SIN TAX?
Dallas
said
RRO
said
Average families are already suffering because of the amount of taxes on gas, and they propose making it even more expensive.
I am all about enviromental protection. But when you talk about fuel alternatives as a justification for stoping our "gas drunk" society, I would like to see these so called alternatives, most are not effective efficent or practicle. When they are then there is an argument to be made but for now no.
The Liberals can't stand that Canadians have some money in their pockets again, and want to find a way to take it.
Say NO to higher taxes.
Say No to Stephane Dion
sarah
said
Cliff
said
Rob in the Peg
said
Let the government use all that extra oil revenue we're already paying to set up some sort of green plan to help the enviroment. Imposing a new tax, revenue neutral or not isn't the answer. We have to work with what we currently have and not break the backs of average working Canadians.
Peter
said
my take on this
said
sdgreen
said
A carbon tax does nothing but penalize the poor and middle class, plus makes government operations way more expensive. A carbon tax creates unemploymnet and kills small business. A Carbon tax is NOT revenue neutral as any tax on energy acts as an earthquake through the entire economy.
The Dion Liberals like the BC Campbell Liberals are just do a kneejerk dance instead of really doing something.
Wise Wajid
said
Taxed enough
said
Doug
said
glen gaffney
said
bunny
said
Craig
said
2007 fuel purchased (litres)__________
Then gives me a refundable credit that is exactly equal to the "carbon tax" I paid to fill my subcompact car.
Yes I already bought a small car and already do my part to limit carbon use.
Of course this won't happen under a Liberal government.
And it looks like the liberals are going to back off this plan because they looked at the polls and realized it wasn't as popular as they thought. Governing by the polls, where have we seen that before? Oh that's right, the years of 1993-2005.
Les J
said
Like income tax?
(Temporary Income Act of 1914)
Like GST? It was supposed to be revenue neutral and temporary too.
Anyone that believes a tax will be revenue neutral is a fool.
James-West
said
Mikael N
said
Terry
said
Liberals bemoaning Conservative "Attack Ads" and Concervative "Fear Mongering"!
Anyone remember the last 2 elections with the Libs going on and on about how scary Harper was and about the 'Hidden Agenda' that never materialized?
Cretien made "Fear Mongering" an art form.
Anyone remember the hatchet job on Preston Manning?
Too Funny!
If it's that bad Libs please stand up on your hind legs and vote to defeat the government!
At least the Dippers walk the walk, they're the real opposition, not you clowns.
Oh yeh, can't do that if u can't win LOL!
KJ ROGERS
said
Paolo
said
Jeff Stokes
said
BTW anybody ever notice that when oil was 10 bucks a barrel 10 years ago gas was still 60 cents a liter. That means at todays price it should be 7.20 a liter...what a bargain we have today! Quit complaining and dump that GM gas guzzling SUV.
JeffW
said
rosie
said
Kellie
said
Follow the logic and forget the political spin. If oil refineries, natural gas companies, manufacturing plants, etc. are carbon taxed by the Liberals....then the only recourse for these companies is to shift this increase onto the consumer.
The result is higher gas prices, higher heating costs, higher food costs etc.
The average person should be able to understand this concept immediately. If not, they have more money than brains!
Northern Ontario
said
People got angry when the Finance minister said Ontario is the last place to invest in Canada because of taxes. Well taxes don't even compare with damage done by the fight against global warming. Carbon tax, cap and trade, Kyoto, all of these were ideas thrown out with little or no thought behind how they actually work. How do you plan a business when you don't know all of the costs.
For example Mcguinty signs a deal on cap and trade with Charest. There is no frame work on how to calculate what your cap is? Now GM shuts down a plant that makes the biggest gas guzzlers around, common sense says this is what the green movement wants why were Layton and Dion at a rally to keep open a plant that produces a product nobody wants?
There is a reason why people criticize the Conservative plan. This is the only plan that actually has a chance of addressing the problem while allowing the econmy to progress.
The Ontario Liberals have shown what the public really wants lots of talk, (I will close our coal fired plants) absolutely no action.
Rachel
said
Raymond
said
These ads are pretty mild compared to the unbelievably crass 'character assassination' ads put out by the Liberals in the past. Handguns pointed at the audience, girls in abortion clinics, distintegrating Canadian flags, aircraft carriers, smearing of canadian soldier's reputations (soldiers in our streets), etc, etc.
Dion will drive us into the dirt with this stupid, unnecessary, carbon tax. Gasoline is $1.50/l, folks...ask GM/Ford/Chrysler which direction auto-buyers are trending and what effect this has on consumption.
Brian Smith
said
OK, does anyone other than Stephen Dion and Jack Layton not realize that it is a fundamental law of economcs that a company will pass on added costs in the price of its product?
Mitch
said
Richard
said
Mel Blake
said
dave
said
Martin G
said
The money has to come from somewhere. Aren't the Liberals the same people who have been complaining that Conservative cuts have left us precariously close to running a deficit? And now they want us to believe that they will cut more and yet will have enough to implement a new and massive bureaucracy?
This is nothing more than a cash grab, don't be lied to Canada.
Doug BC
said
I do not like either Mr.Harper,or his government. They need to do more to improve the environment.
BUT, I will not vote for any party that thinks imposing more poverty on Canada is a good trade off for the minimal impact we can have on global GHG emissions.
As a life long Liberal supporter,I have to say to Mr. Dion and Mr.Campbell in BC's legislature, "good bye".
These taxes make rich people richer, poor people much poorer, and accomplish almost nothing.
Frank Buchan
said
As for those who like this plan (an ill-conceived and incompleete vision, if that word even applies), consider that once it is in place we will never see the end of it. Like the "temporary" income tax introduced last century, it will become a revenue stream in and of itself.
My worst feel for this plan is that even if we believe it to be revenue neutral (even Liberal numbers indicate it is not), it is not really effectively doing anything about the environment -- especially if it is revenue neutral. Think about it: we need to start to make investment in alternative energy a trend, and that means spending money on it in a structured way. Directed tax cuts to introduce environmental measures would work because it is an incentive-based program. How does a carbon tax work? It's revenue stream flows back out according to the revenue-neutral nonsense, but undirected toward the environment?
Like all of Dion's well-intended rhetoric, this is just more noise.
As for the CPC, they need to do more. It took a century to get to this point, and may take a century to get out of the dependency mess, but we need to start forming solutions more rapidlym rather than just talking endlessly.
Sadly, carbon taxes don't provide an intelligent response to a complex problem.
John A
said
If they continue to moan and groan about how they want to drop taxes and remove some of the taxes that the Liberals brought in, how come they haven't done anything?
daveyboy
said
Rich
said
If the libs raise $5B in this new tax shift and spend $5B....that is revenue neutral to THEM.
To US....it's still $5B out of ouir pockets.
This is a shell-game or 3 card monte at its finest.
The ripple efects of such a plan would be horrendous....everything would cost more and taxes (sorry...."shifts") that industry would incur would be passed directly along to....US!
Not only would the cost of everything go up, our local taxes would too....the local govt's would pass along the additional costs by raising local taxes.
Yes ...this is one fine plan.....NOT.
Scott in Montreal
said
The Bet
said
Robe
said
Personally, I'd like to see an immediate reduction in our gas taxes, a cap on gas exports and local refinery profits. Something needs to be done soon, the costs are killing the average consumer and businesses.
BTW: I drive a hybrid and it is costing me $30 in gas to take my daughter to see her grandparents. Where's the sense in that?!
Norm
said
MRC
said
How in the world can you trust a Liberal to introduce a "revenue-neutral" tax?!
Here's also something else that should be said again & again & again...
Fundamental changes in technology, our economic structure, and consumption (# of people) is the ONLY way to make our future better. Everything else is a waste of time and consideration of more (or adjusted) taxation is just absurd.
P.S. I wonder if Garth Turner will ever make the mistake again & divulge Liberal caucus behind-closed-doors information on his blog like he did when he was with the Conservatives...and I wonder if the Liberals will have the integrity to chew him up for it just as the Conservatives did?...
Big Tim
said
gord
said
Bill
said
Lynn
said
ance
said
I don't think the government or the opposition can promise us a painless transition from our endless and mindless energy consumption to something more sustainable.
Vote hungry politicians will always claim that their plan will do it.
Use your own head and do all you can to conserve, don't imagine that it can all happen by someone else doing something.
In the long run, reduced consumption of hydrocarbon fuels is the only thing that will help us both economically and environmentally.
shayne
said
Something tells me that if it does come in revenue neutral than it wont stay that way for long. Good luck trying to repeel or modify a tax once it is in force. Look how long it took to modify the gst. Several administrations.
Ian
said
steve I. C.
said
Paul B
said
Well, I'm sure that should make those workers in the manufacturing sector feel better. Think companies such as GM, won't factor in carbon taxes on their bottom line when deciding where to make new investment? Anyone stupid enough to believe companies won't pass the cost of the tax down to the consumer?
And Dion wants to tax electricity, heating oil and gas? Sorry, I can't control the weather. And if i get hit with a bitter winter like the most recent one, I'll have no choice but to cough up more in carbon tax. Meanwhile, China will continue with it's plan to open 500+ coal-fired generating plants. Brilliant!!
Kendell
said
The proposed Carbon Tax will be a disaster. Look to Europe for proof!
Danny
said
Further, I'm about to start a job with an oil company in Alberta. In all honesty, good for the enviroment or not, I'm not willing to take a 50% pay cut to benefit the planet, when it won't make a difference what Canada does anyway without the US, Russia, China, India, etc. on baord.
BOBT
said
John
said
david
said
Tax-shifting is liberal spin which really means, Tax-shafting!
Dave Roberts
said
Robin
said
Mike
said
Dale Wilson
said
A tax is a tax is a tax. Revenue neutral - oh yeah, we've all seen that work with government before. Yet another huge bureaucracy created to administer a federal program - revenue neutral my arse.
Jan
said
Paul
said
In almost three years of power these CON artists have brainwashed many small minded people and will continue to do so. They have done very little positive for Canada in the time they have been in... All their talks are hot talks and they have spent so much Canada is close to a first deficit in 13 years.
They are now desparate in the measure they take.
Kevin
said
This will be the nail in the cofin for sure.
John
said
David
said
If they go to the polls with this strategy, don't look for my vote.