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Conservative Party interns hand out leaflets mocking Liberal Leader Stephen Dion's carbon tax, on Parliament Hill in Ottawa on Monday, June 9, 2008. (Fred Chartrand  / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Liberal Leader Stephane Dion is applauded by Michael Ignatieff as he rises to ask a question during Question Period in the House of Commons in Ottawa on Monday June 9, 2008. (Tom Hanson / THE CANADIAN PRESS) The Conservative Party of Canada's attack advertisement targets Liberal Leader Stephane Dion and a proposed carbon tax plan. The ads will play at gas stations in Toronto and other parts of southern Ontario.

Liberals, Tories trade shots over carbon tax

Viewer

CTV News Video

CTV News: Graham Richardson on the tax ad battle
The Conservatives started their attack against the Liberals, painting them as eager to increase the tax burden. But the Liberals mocked a conservative animated cartoon that's supposed to play at the gas pumps.
CTV Newsnet: David McGuinty, Liberal environment critic, believes the government is playing political games
David McGuinty says he is not surprised by the ads. There is a climate change crisis with no plan. The government is playing political games with the future of the atmosphere. The carbon tax shift has received support from environmentalist, biologist and economists.
CTV Newsnet: Tim Kane of Delta Media looks at the discusses the effectiveness of the ads
Tim Kane discusses the effectiveness of the ads. The good news for the Conservatives is that the ad is getting a lot of news play. The internet is a primary source of information and the ad will benefit from this. The ad campaign could possibly backfire.
Conservative Party of Canada advertisement, one
The Conservative Party of Canada released this advertisement on June 8th, 2008.
The Conservative Party of Canada advertisement, two
The Conservative Party of Canada released this advertisement on June 8th, 2008.

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Date: Mon. Jun. 9 2008 9:10 PM ET

Cries of lies and tax hikes were hurled across the House of Commons as the Liberals and Conservatives clashed over a policy that hasn't even been announced yet.

"When are the Conservatives going to stop insulting Canadians and offer a real plan to tackle climate change instead of cartoons and a campaign of lies," asked Liberal Leader Stephane Dion on Monday.

He was referring to a new Tory ad campaign about the Liberals' looming carbon tax proposal -- a policy that has yet to be released.

Jason Kenney, secretary of state for multiculturalism and the Canadian identity, retorted that the Liberal plan would be a massive tax grab.

"Even while gas prices are going up, he wants to force them higher, with higher taxes to pay for the billions of dollars of unbudgeted promises," he said as some Tory MPs held up postcards from the campaign talking about Dion's "tax on everything."

Some reports have indicated the tax won't apply to gasoline.

Speaker Peter Milliken rebuked Dion for using the word "lie" in his questions.

Deputy Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff said in the government's regulations for greenhouse gases, it admits that higher energy costs will result for consumers.

"Nowhere does the Conservative plan propose to help seniors and low-income Canadians bear those costs. Our plan will," he said.

"When will the 'little grease spot' (from the ad) start telling the truth?" Ignatieff asked.

Kenney noted Ignatieff, unlike Dion, had previously supported a carbon tax.

The Liberal caucus is already showing some public divisions over the timing of the carbon tax plan.

In a blog posting, Liberal MP Garth Turner slams the Tories for their "pathetic and disappointing" ads but he says the tax is "too crucial to bring forth at the wrong time."

Turner said there are two possible moves for the Liberals in response to the ads.

"The damn-the-torpedoes response would be to push ahead simply because this is the right thing to do for our wasteful, oil-drunk society and collective future," said Turner.

"The political reaction would be to modify and corrupt the plan to address worries of rising energy costs and pissed-off voter groups. Since Stephane Dion is one of the most principled people I have encountered in public life, and yet a national party leader who needs support, I don't know the outcome."

But he said the "avalanche" of emails and blog comments he's received were telling.

"Either this is not the time for altruism, with $140-a-barrel oil, or proponents of the Green Shift have simply not articulated their vision," said Turner.

'Political games'

Ottawa Liberal MP David McGuinty, the opposition's environment critic, said he "hopes the ads run every 15 minutes" so Canadians are reminded of what he sees as the Conservative government's shady political tactics.

"If the Conservatives want to race to the bottom they are OK to do so," he told CTV Newsnet on Monday. "Last week in Canada we lost about 2,000 high-paying jobs (at General Motors) and this is what the prime minister is doing with his time and energy.

"They're playing political games with the future of our climate and our atmosphere and it's not surprising at all."

In the plan, tax would be levied on polluting items but income tax would be reduced, said McGuinty. That means Canadians choosing to drive less would have more money to spend otherwise.

Green Party Leader Elizabeth May supports the idea and thinks a carbon tax is one of the few ways to encourage Canadians to get used to oil's ever-increasing price tag.

"It is bold. It does take leadership," she said. "The reason the prices at the pump are going up is because we're at the end of cheap fossil fuels... I think that there's never a bad time to tell Canadians the truth."

CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife said the Tories are introducing the ads now because gas prices are so high and people are heading into their summer vacation.

"We know that the (Liberal) caucus is really divided about it (the carbon tax) but nobody has really publicly come out and talked about it but now we're starting to see that these Tory attack ads are having their effect," Fife said Monday.

The ads will run in Toronto and other parts of southern Ontario, and will be accompanied by standard radio ads, t-shirts, postcards and other materials.

The ads feature what appears to be a talking smudge of oil on a gas pump, with a van in the background.

One of the 15-second spots says:

"(Liberal Leader) Stephane Dion said he wasn't going to introduce a carbon tax. But now he is. Yet another flip-flop."

There are three such "fuelcast" ads at the website willyoubetricked.ca.

However, Fuelcast, the company that operates the ad system, said Monday it won't run the Conservative ads at the pumps because it has a policy against political advertising.

Comments are now closed for this story

Dan
said

Bring on the gas-pollution tax! What I pay more on gas I'll get back in lower income taxes. What a great idea, it will reduce consumption and help the environment for my children.


RRO
said

The actual tax on the carbon will be revenue neutral (maybe) because it will be returned in Income tax (maybe) but that will not cover the additional costs this tax will create.

A tax on carbon will increase the cost of food, clothing, and anything else that comes to us on trucks (trucking companies will be paying through the nose), power, water, heating will all increase in cost.

Dion is misrepresenting the facts about what is carbon tax will cost. Hit will hit lower and middle income families the hardest.When you mess with something as fundamental as fuel it has a ripple effect across all areas.

The Conservatives are mearly pointing out what members of Dion's own party think about this idea.

I am all for this idea when there are reliable, efficent alternative available but so far there isn't. Wind power causes enviromental shifts where ever they are located. Solar is space intensive, ethinol takes as much gas as is produces, hydro works but only where there is sources, Coal is just as bad. And everyone is afraid of Nuclear.

The Hybrid are just as enviromentally devestating as anything. There batteries are copper intensive, and copper mining is very enviromentally devestating. And they release increased emmissions, all they do is give better fuel millage.

Plus Dion hasn't said how he plans to spend this tax grab. Will it go into another "program" where Liberal party supporters can steal there fair share.

Dion makes the Martin and Chretien years look wonderful by comparrison.


Ki-Som
said

NO NEW TAXES!!! Don't know why Harper has to waste Canadian tax payers money to tell us that Dion doesn't know what Canada wants. As long as Dion remains the Liberal party leader, the Liberal party will never form the next government. Which really saddens me, Harper, is too much of a bully.


Dan From Toronto
said

The Conservatives produce attack ads rather than solutions, blame the last gov't for anything bad, take credit for anything good and sue when they are criticised.

I guess Harper had to drop leadership attack ads because he is no leader.

If the tables were turned the conservatives would be suing the liberals.



JP
said

one simple comments-


" GROW UP KIDS"
Harper- Call an ELECTION and let the people decide and stop you childish behaviour


Gary Wilson
said

Please, please, please people take the time to understand this policy. It will mean less income tax for us. It makes a whole lot of sense and has worked exceptionally well elsewhere. Don't listen to spins from any of the political parties or the rants of AM conservative talk radio ... do your own research!


Gary Wilson
said

This is the problem with Canadian politics. The Cons know this is the best policy for fighting climate change. But they play smear with it because fear is an easier sell.

And so we get posters like David who says "he'll never vote for a new tax no matter how they explain it."

Of course if David took the time to understand it, he'd realize a rev neutral carbon tax will result in lower income tax for the vast majority of Canadians (and most likely him) far greater than any increase in gas prices. It's a shift in tax from income to consumption and pollution and that's where our entire tax system NEEDS to go.


bren
said

I just saw that now the liberals are saying there would be no carbon tax, and that no tax would be passed on to consumers.I distinctly remember him saying he would bring out a carbon tax.And no matter who you tax it gets passed to the consumer and taxpayers..what is he thinking?Thats ok..the liberals are also saying that they are tough on crime and support our military...what liberals are they talking about!!!??


Alex Nelson
said

More taxes on Gas? Is Dion crazy? I know who I'm not voting for!

Tim
said

This ad campaign by the Conservatives is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time.


Chris
said

IK... Income taxes rates are variable!!! The carbon tax is a fixed rate, meaning if the price of something goes up, so does the tax revenue from it!!! You can't offset the two neutrally!!!

Carey
said

This revenue neutral is the biggest scam you will see. If the libs collect 10 billion do you really think we will get 10 billion back tax cuts. I suggest we may see 5 or 6 billion but as liberals always do like middle men and take a cut for themselves. I.E. same as the sponsorship program. Then they will start even more social programs to buy votes.

Pete Kirby
said

The first one of those grease spots that squawks at me will be signaling the last drop of gas I buy from that dealer – or that company! I’ve had it with Steve – and his whole greasy crowd of knuckle-dragging troglodytes.

Mike Webster
said

The Tories are right. This would be a tax on everything and everyone. Everything we eat, everthing we wear, every medication we take and everything else we buy or consume is transported by truck at some point and requires energy to produce. A tax on gasoline or energy is, in fact, a tax on absolutely everything that will be paid by absolutely everyone. Prices will rise, things will become less affordable and the economy will go into the tank. What's worse, all that will happen for absolutely no realized benefit. Even if we eliminated 100% of our emissions, it wouldn't make a lick of difference to the world's environment. Even worse, just a handful of the 450 new coal plants being built by China would negate our reductions. This is just another Liberal scheme to pick out pockets.


Ed
said

Dion!

I still think you're the best thing that ever happened to the Conservatives. Your actions(smart or otherwise) always support the Conservative policies. You're a real sly one. Keep up the good work the Con's need you.

Jay
said

If the Conservatives are so concerned about the price of gas, why don't they lower the tax that keeps getting higher and higher and higher? No, they want to get rich off the destruction of our environment, cut the GST to encourage unbridled consumerism, and put off any changes for the foreseeable future. Liberals...get off your butts and start fighting back before it's too late.

Brooke Allen Vaughan
said

The last time the Liberals promised a cost neutral program it was for the Gun Registry and it went Two Billion over the estimates.....please Mr Dion stop with the neutral programs...Canadians can't afford them

cb
said

This isn't about attack ads and parties - this is about whether Canadians want entertainment OR action on the issue of environment.

If the responses here and elswhere are truly representative of Canadians then:
Canada will sell fuel
USA will become environmental innovators

We are what we are.

Fred Andersen
said

I find every one of the Conservative attack ads offensive. How will I explain this insulting diatribe to my child when she asks.

Do I say, "it is just the prime minister and it is ok for him to pedal hate, but don't you dare think badly of anyone because you can go to jail?"

What I do hate is the haters. If they haven't got a good program, don't knock the other guy. Personally, I think we should nationalize oil and gas, dump nafta and become a country for Canadians for once.


gerry
said

Remember the 18 cent a gallon fiasco? Mr.Dion can
take his carbon tax, along with his carbon footprint,
snap a leash on Kyoto and
go for a walk in a snowstorm. While he's at it, take the other two disciples with him...Professor Ignatieff and Mr. Social Contract...
Bob Rae.

karra
said

Not surprisingly the Liberals have nothing to offer other than a 'new' tax no matter the disguise - keep it up fiberals - it's what you're really really good at, at not much else. . . .

kris pittman
said

I have been in email communication with the MPs for Brampton West and Brampton-Sprindale, neither will address my concerns with respect to the Carbon Tax, neither will even explain how it works and if in fact it will raise the price of everything which i feel it will, they respond to my emails but simply don't say anything about the carbon tax. I voted Liberal in the last 4 Provincial and federal elections, never again, not unless they give up the rhetoric and start addressing the real concerns of the middle class and poor in this country.

Dan
said

Mel Blake - It was the conservatives who introduced the GST and claimed that it would be offset by lower prices. Partisanship is such an ugly thing.

Les J
said

Ian: Oil companies do not get a "tax break". They get to DEFER taxes, by deducting out the capital cost sooner, rather than later.

Until quite recently, energy and mining companies paid a HIGHER rate of taxes than EVERY other corporation in Canada. This does NOT include royalties, either, just corporate taxes.

And as for Harper being in the pocket of Big Oil...well, that would explain why he yanked Income Trust Status from oil companies. Oil companies LOVE to be ****ed over.

Jeff
said

Here's a solution to all the critics of the carbon tax who complain about it. Get a bike, car pool or take public transportation.

I'm 43 and never will I ever be a car owner and that's by choice.

Ray in Saskatchewan
said

You know, if it get's us on the right track for the environment, then so be it, nothing has been done with this conservative gov't that has remotely gotten any reductions in greenhouses so tax the companies that pollute big, therefore having them to be more efficient. If they don't and increase the cost to the consumers anyhow, we will adjust and they won't get the profits. LOOK AT IT THIS WAY, BIG COMPANIES, NO TAXING RIGHT NOW ARE STILL INCREASING PRICES AT RECORD RATES... so tax them now and get them to be efficient because I'm sure they don't like the taxes eating into their profits. For those who call the government narrow minded on either side, don't look past your own nose because if you cannot care for the environment by supporting any initiative then you might as well move to a country that doesn't care at all and pollutes big.


Wally
said

There is no election called. These sorts of blatant campaign-style attack ads from the PM to the Leader of the Opposition is a waste of time and money, pathetic and on top of it, untrue. How can the Tories say anything about a policy that has not been released? Do they have a leaked copy? If so, they are legally obligated to reveal that, if not, they are lying. Furthermore, to publicly claim Dion is going to put a "tax on Everything" is libelous and they should be sued for it. The level to which this gov't has stooped is truly sickening and it will take a decade to pull the House and the citizens of Canada out of the mud puddle in which they have chosen to mire.

I simply cannot believe that adults in power are such pathological liars and I'm so disgusted that ANY Canadian would accept it. How can any of you wearing that lie of a yellow t-shirt sleep at night? You're destroying my country.

The only thing truth about those t-shirts is that the Tories, as usual, have favoured being YELLOW.


Andrew Campbell
said

Ah! So now we know what Conservative Party interns do all day... hand out flyers and log on CTV and attack the Liberal Party when they should be doing government related work...
This government is full of the most despicable people I have ever seen. When questionned on any issue, they howl, bark, scream, growl, make up stories, anything they can do to distract people from all the troubles that constantly surround them. Canadians are much smarter than the Conservatives think and will not be bought by misleasding advertising paid for with their own tax dollars!

Rav
said

I love these ads, they are hilarious! VERY INNOVATIVE INDEED.

Mr. Elitist Dion should say no to taxing Canadians to DEATH!

Eric
said

PATHETIC!!!

These are the people we elect???

I'd rather have George Bush. (There is just a weeee bit of scarcasm in that).

PATHETIC!!!

The Robber Baron
said

The whole lot of them--Tories, Grits, NDP, and Bloc--make me sick. These are the people who are supposed to act on our behalf and in our best interest. I guess that means Canada acts like a nation of 32M crying babies, if our MPs are supposed to represent us in the House of Commons. It's no wonder the country is such a damn mess. Bring back the Rhinoceros Party. At least they never pretended to be anything but a joke!!!

Todd
said

The Liberal plan is part of a much larger tax grab by Ont. and Que new Cap and Trade program. If the Liberals get in they will support a national Cap and Trade program based upon C02 emmisions below 1990 output numbers. What will happen is Alberta, to the most part will have to buy credits from Ont and Que to the tune of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars, this will effectively take the engine out of the economy in the West and transfere back to Ont. and Que the economic power they are seeing shift to the West. But ultametly the consumer will pay hundreds of millions more for gas and oil as corps. will pass the bill onto consumers. This is a desperate attempt by Ont. and Que to stemm the tide and loss of economic and ultimately political power to the west.
The best way to get people to change their behaviour is to let the market take care of it self, the high prices are seeing a natural shift towards alternative energy sources, I know I don't need another TAX to get me to change my behaviour.


Wake Up Call
said

Vincent - What are we going to use to charge these electric cars with : Natural Gas and Coal Power. That is all most Provinces have.


Dave in Que.
said

Only on this media branch of the Conservative party is this being played up and promoted.Not only is Mr. Harper smarter than the rest of the world on Global warming but now he is phychic and able to see other partys policies before they are finished or released.The more I see of conservative actions and propaganda the more I think of Orwell's 1984.It's a novel by the way.

Matt in Ottawa
said

Inmature, and a waste of time!
Move on to important issues already!
The 3 yr Conservaitve campaign for votes needs to end!


Phil
said

A tax is a tax is a tax: WE pay it.

All taxes have to be administered, which means a bigger bureaucracy; THAT eats up most of the taxes paid. So how much would come back to the tax payers? Close to nothing.

No tax is "neutral". It is only "revenue neutral" because the bureaucracy absorbs it all, supplying nothing to the exchequer.


Western Petroleum Technologist
said

In the past I was somewhat concerned about how easy conservatives were rolling over every time some liberal said "boo". I see things are changing. Perhaps you like driving your cars.

Fourat
said

Sorry, I don't buy this wolf in mice's clothing............revenue neutral, give me break.

je
said

The Conservative & Liberal Staff should stop writing comments here. Without their comments, we would have a better representation of what people are thinking on this issue.

If truly tax neutral; I am in support.

DWT
said

I would like to know where I can get the T-shirt!


yeah still waiting here.
said

RESPONDING TO JOE
conservatives introduced the gst,chretian promised to axe the tax. I am still waiting.
and waiting
and waiting


Rod
said

Vincent states: "Yes, thats right Dwight! Liberals are the masters of taxes!

Oh wait... who introduced the most punishing tax in history... the GST?

Wasn't it the CONSERVATIVES?!" Vincent just to educate you all the GST did was to be a more transparent tax than the hidden FST (Federal Sales Tax) that was not consistent and was not the same on most items.

bud
said

Revenue neutral is a lie. Plain and simple. They have already stated $17 billion in tax INCREASES and 10 to 13 billion in tax decreases.

Besides, let us see every Liberal MP living in 1000 sq ft condo, driving a Smart car and vacationing at home. Do that for 3 or 4 years, then start your bloodsucking.

Oh yeah I forgot.

Entitled to your entitlements.

How uninformed and brainwashed do you have to be to beg for higher taxes? Wow.



Peter
said

When was the last time ANY Canadian government collected a tax and effectively managed it? I'm quite sure if they collect yet another tax, many of those dollars will get wasted in a future scandal that may or may not be uncovered by the auditor general.

The Voice of Reason
said

Stephen Harper DARES to accuse DION of flip-flopping? The undisputed KING of flip flops and lies himself is now slinging the mud at Dion, and over something that isn't even true? When will Canadians get sick of Harper completely Americanizing us with these false attack ads? When will his utter hypocrisy finally be enough? This liar has to be booted out NOW.


td
said

Revenue neutral. Some people actually think it's possible. Is it? Who is going to pay the thousands of govt employees to oversee the tax? That alone means it will not be neutral since their pay comes from taxes.
So on one hand the Liberals want the govt to do more to help manufacturers. They sure are going to need help if their taxes go up because they are naughty polluters aren't they. Or they can just relocate to a region/country with lower taxes.
As for comments about the Conservatives never lowering any taxes well just check the tax rates and GST. Not a lot but it surely lowered the total government revenues in YOUR favour.

Brian
said

From the above article:
Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis said the Liberal carbon tax will not affect people at the pumps.

"We will not be taxing gasoline. There will absolutely be no tax on gas," he told CTV Newsnet.

Does this mean NO taxes on gas or NO NEW taxes on gas??






waynestunes
said

Will someone please tell me how this tax will not hurt.A tax is a tax and we the people pay for it. I would love to see a goverment make money without taxing the people.Oh they did own petrocan,sold it must have made money.I wonder who made money on that one.Now tax the air. Someone is going to make a bundle. Carbon bonds .Gotta buy some lol.


Mitch
said

As an Albertan, a conservative party member and an employee of an oil company I must say, though it causes bile to rise in my throat that the liberals are in the right on this issue. Most environmentalists and economists would agree that the most effective way to reduce GHG emissions is to put a price on carbon. If this is done using free market mechanisms (cap and trade or to a lesser extent carbon tax) it will not in the long run overtly affect the economy. It dumbfounds me that the conservative party, a party usually so devoted to the free market is implementing their economically intrusive and ineffective regulatory approach. Shame on us!

But moreover where is Dion’s leadership on this issue. Why did he allow this policy to leak before they were ready to defend it? Why is the only liberals defending this plan are two no name MP’s? Why are the liberals allowing themselves to be portrayed in midst of a downturn as tax and spend liberals? Wake up Dion the election is being fought right now and you are losing! Dion is not a leader!



Jean-Paul
said

Dion appears to be standing up for what's right. Choking progressive ideas before they're even explained, that's what the conservative campaign is all about. Canadians aren't stupid Steven!


Vincent
said

Why do we keep allowing ourselves to be squeezed by oil interests? (One of our western provinces included as well)

But, as conservative economic theory dictates, the market will regulate itself. As soon as cars like the Tesla Roadster and Chevy Volt are out that can be plugged in and changed for 1/8th of what it costs to run a car on gasoline, consumers will run away from oil screaming.

Thank god....

Thanks for being so greedy oil interests... you will hasten you own demise.

As consumers, thats good for us all.


Jaid
said

If you can remember one election where the Liberals ousted out the Conservatives, they said the price of gas won't go up. That's what it looked like at first, but then it progressed to higher prices. In here it's a battle of short term vs long term goals and it seems that the short term goals are winning it which is what the Conservatives are usually on.

Right now with such small changes coming fast, lots of short term goals need to be placed. If you plan to go long, better pray that your hindsight is 100% or you're going to crash and burn.


Vincent
said

Yes, thats right Dwight! Liberals are the masters of taxes!

Oh wait... who introduced the most punishing tax in history... the GST?

Wasn't it the CONSERVATIVES?!


R D
said

When I knew "Conservative" Garth Turner, he was driving a gas guzzling SUV. Did you trade that thing in yet,Garth??


joe
said

Ian

I am wondering what huge tax break oil companies receive? I always here this so where is the tax breaks, name it specifically?

I know they pay:
-50% royalities for every barrel they pump to stelmach
-Pay huge land purchases to the stelmach goverment
-Pay huge amounts of income tax to the federal goverment
-employees pay huge amounts of income taxes
-pay huge amounts of municipal taxes
-pay huge amounts of taxes on the fuel used transportation and drilling



Owen
said

David,
I'm not aware of any government programs that don't cost taxpayers anything. A carbon tax is a lot more cost effective way of changing people's behaviour than subsidizing people through programs. In Manitoba, if we just charged the actual market price for electricity we would be able to export more and the whole province would be richer overall. Instead we subsidize it so that we waste more and lose money because of it. Taxing income less and pollution more makes perfect sense to me; a lot more sense than giving China a tax cut (i.e. the GST cut) and not cutting income taxes or taxes on Canadian businesses. The Liberals' tax proposals are a lot more responsible than the Tories', which are just designed to trick people and buy their votes.


Al in Cranbrook
said

It's reported that both carbon trading and carbon taxes have been an utter disaster in Europe, costing hundreds of thousands of jobs, and have done absolutely nothing to reduce GHGs.

Good idea, just what we need here, too, eh!

It's nothing more than a tax grab, plain and simple, to pay for pie-in-the-sky leftwing idiocy.




Mike L
said

When was the last time a tax was ever 'revenue-neutral', regardless of what they intended?

This proposed solution by Dion is even worse than the problem.


...
said

Sounds quite like politics. It's the same old politics, regardless of who's governing and who's in the opposition. Governing Party will always take advantage of the opposition parties weakness (regardless if liberal, conservative or NDP). Of course, all this is only to get elected, or re-elected on all sides, and not care anything about the nation.


Evan
said

The Carbon Tax is simply a version of the energy accord in the new millenium. To try and sway away from accusations of western alienation, yeah, all provinces will pay, but it is the West that will suffer most. Typical Liberal Opportunism!


Randolf
said

Living in an area with with no natural gas, we must rely on the much more expensive furnace oil to keep warm. I will be paying much more in carbon taxes than a fellow Canadian who may have natural gas. So unless there is some mechanism to deal with regional discrepancies with regards to home heating, this idea is definitely a non-starter for me.

I also doubt any new federal tax program can be refined to the point of true revenue neutrality.

The rich have the means to become more energy efficient...to buy a hybrid, to go geothermal. They will pay low carbon taxes and less income tax. The poor will get an income tax break, but may not be have the means to reduce their emissions. I can't see how this plan does not shift the country's tax burden away from the wealthy and to the poor.




Waldo
said

Garth Turner makes one excellent point that nobody who posts on these boards wants to face. We (society in general) have an addiction to oil and energy that needs to be faced. It's going to be a long time before we see cheap energy.

Face reality people. We all must change our habits and become much more responsible. If we do this, carbon taxes and other green initiatives won't be neccessary.


Robin the Hood
said

A carbon tax is long overdue. If Canadians reject this then they will be showing their true colours and even I, as a Canadian, would support any foreign economic block that imposed a carbon tariff and other penalties on Canadian goods in the future. In fighting climate change there can be no exceptions or free rides. Even though it will hurt at the pump the real aim is to make wasteful habits as painful as possible so that we can - willingly or not - save what is left of the environment for future generations. Its a very simple goal like it or not and may have to be rammed down people's throats if need be, but hopefully not. We need some educating based on the blog here.




Linda in Vancouver
said

Federal Liberals divided over policy!! Say it isn't so.
I usually vote Liberal and even I know this tax suckes.But,the good things is,that if higher fuel prices remain,Canada's industry will shut down.we'll all be dirt poor,and then perhaps the boneheads who think using high prices as the only way to discourage excess consumption will get their heads out of the sand.
You'll get no argument out of me about Harper being something of a jackass.But one thing is clear already.Two years ago he did say higher energy costs would kill Canada's economy.You have to be pretty stupid not to be thinking there might be some truth to that.Even if you do think the environmental gain is worth the cost.
I,for one,do not.And I suspect many others will come to the same conclusion as poverty in Canada soars,industry shuts down,travel becomes impossible,food unaffordable,and freezing in the dark much more common.
Less taxes = people with more money = people with newer,more fuel efficient cars and homes.Farmers who can produce food at prices we can pay.
Poorer people drive old junkers which spew pollution and GHG's,eat poorly,can't afford sports or higher education for their kids,etc,etc.
No tax is neutral and no tax to any company is ot paid for by consumers.PERIOD.


BW
said

Wake up people "Revenue Neutral" only means that the government spends all the money it brings in with this tax. It does not mean that it won't impact consumer pocket books.


IK
said

OK - I have absolutely had it with the uneducated postings and ridiculousness that these comment pages have become.

A tax can't be revenue neutral - YES IT CAN!

Its quite simple actually, for the amount of incoming tax dollars you receive, you reduce another tax by the same amount - gov't doesn't make any more money, just moves the tax burden to a more effective place.

In fact, if you actually spent the time to think this through you would see that this is actually a tax decrease in the long run. Currently, the more money you make, the more taxes you pay with the income tax. Its a progressive tax system thats been around for generations. That being said, no one wants to strategically make less money in order pay less taxes. In the Liberal plan, as it has been hinted thus far as the whole plan is still not released, income taxes will be LOWERED!

Now, when it comes to the carbon tax, the more environmentally friendly and energy efficient companies become, the less carbon tax they will pay. It is an INCENTIVE to produce less harmful by-products and in turn pay LESS TAXES.

Since only days ago people, including those on these message boards, were saying we have to go down this more environmentally efficient road, this tax shift makes perfect sense.

TO CONLUDE:
- Income Tax DOWN
- Carbon Tax UP (Neutral to the Income Tax drop)
= Pay less in income tax
= Pay less in carbon tax as you reduce your output of emissions
= LESS TAX OVERALL as you become more environmentally friendly

Now tell me, as it stands right now, can anyone else out there directly lower their taxes by becoming more fuel efficient? Is anyone willing to take a pay cut to reduce their tax burden?

Income tax is technically a disincentive to make more money. This carbon tax is an incentive to produce less emissions which will allow you to control and lower your carbon tax burden.

Do the math before you speak - some times taxes are a good thing.

P.S. If all you conservatives posting on this board think that the answer is to lower taxes, lower taxes, and lower taxes more, let me remind you that in the United States George W. Bush brought in the biggest tax cuts in recent history and ended up with not one, but TWO major economic downturns/recessions - a feat that hasn't been accomplished by one President since the Great Depression Era.

Thanks G.W. - You made history with TWO economic downturns/recessions during your presidency!


Spence
said

We need an election now! To have minority government debating such crucial issues as we face is sure to produce a haphazard, short sighted policy going forward. let the parties put their plan to the people and let the people decide now. Bring down the conservatives you gutless Liberals!


bobby
said

Paul said:

"If it's neutral and no additional taxes up front to the consumer then so be it."

Sure - just like the gun registration law of the Liberals that was guaranteed to cost no more than $2 million - and has exceeded $2 BILLION!

Never trust a Liberal when it comes to taxation!


Ian from N.B.
said

You all complain about how much you're taxed on your income, well guess what, you all voted in favour of a 1% GST cut instead so now you want a conservative plan that's going to take longer to implement and longer to perform all for targets that are much lower than the rest of the world? You are really just playing into their hands aren't you? Get this in your head people, THRERE WILL BE TAX! It'll either happen now with a carbon tax (which also comes with income tax cuts) or it will come from 2008 to 2020 with absolutely no guarantee of any sort of tax breaks to any of us! Your choice, tax now that you'll be able to figure out, or tax later when you might be worse off?


Jim
said

This is just another liberal tax grab to pay for the major programs which they want to implement.

The suggestion that it would be "revenue neutral" is laughable, they would soon find an emergency requirement to avoid the neutral part of it. When was the last time a liberal promise was carried out except where it involved sucking more tax money from your wallet?

They had many chances to cut our high taxes and they managed to avoid all the opportunities so as to fund the gun registry, HRDC , Adscam Cretians golf course and a thousand other areas of waste that we have yet to find out about.
This must be rejected for what it is, a big pile of liberal crap.






Soviet Canuckistan
said

It has begun, finally! Harper is running scared. Alberta is the bastion of the right, but last time I checked, Ontario and Alberta have the same pump prices. Why is that? Do you think Baird can explain that one? Hit 'em where it hurts- in their glass spines and mandibles. Come up with a plan so insane and present it to parliament and go to the polls on it. Why fear the reaper? With all of his flaws, I actually see Dion as a fairly principled guy. Harper used to be, but now he has chosen to surround himself with Harris and Mulroney lackies that will only help him raise money, but never win a majority. Boo hoo.


Mark M
said

???
Revenue neutral my ***!! This is a horrible idea. Dion is grasping for any new revenues now that Harper has (AND RIGHTLY SO) dropped the surplus from sickening levels to an appropriate amount, any surplus is TOO MUCH TAXES. Dion is stuck and he knows it. He can't jack the GST back up without a revolt, income taxes are at a max that he thinks people will pay so he has to come up with something to refill his spending plans (universal day care, kyoto, and other scheams) so he comes up with this in the guise of the environment. Canada produces less than 2% of the worlds global warming gases yet Dion wants to drive our economy down the tubes!!! Does he think Canadians will just trust him and his party to be revenue neutral?!?!?

Let the US, India, China and all the other countries with unreal CO2 emmissions set the tone, or wait and see what Mr (change) Obama or McCain come up with! Our 2% is doing squat to the environment. Why do we have to go broke???


how about a tax on politicans instead (BST)?
said

This is a load of BUNK!

Introducing a carbon tax at a time of recession is irresponsible and deplorable. It's fine and well to say Canada must do it's part to lower C02 emissions, but at what cost? You'll levy a tax on companies, whom will pass the cost on to the end consumer. End consumer has weakened purchasing power, and stops buying goods, which causes the next person to loose their job. All for lowering C02 emission. What about Bio-Fuel? Would we not save the planet faster by STOPPING (yes I said STOPPING) bio-fuel production? The devestation to the envrionment around the world, to produce cleaner fuel, is acutally making things worse by doubbling the C02 emissions. Look it up, there are many sources out there...

I'm all for a healthier planet as it benefits everyone, but to create a tax in the name of environmentalism is just greed and nothing more.


Jim
said

A massive new carbon tax with Ontario's economy already reeling would be economic suicide.


JPC
said

Wasn't the gun registry suppossed to be revenue neutral? I thought so.


B. Lang
said

Those gas pump ads are pretty interesting, makes me wonder "Was there anykind of "Financial Arrangements" made by either the Conservative Party to the Oil Company's or the Oil Company's to the Conservative Party to allow such ads to run, especially when there run at gas station's.


Jeff S.
said

These ads are hilarious! And it's a brilliant strategy for the Conservatives to define the Liberal carbon tax plan before the Liberals can.

After all the mud-slinging and smear tactics the Liberals have engaged in recently to damage the Government, this slap back has been overdue for some time. And just in time for Parliament to recess for the summer where the opposition will be out of the media spotlight.

And only 18 months at most until the next election...


PJR
said

I find the tactics of this government childish and disgusting. They are showing once again that they have ZERO class and that PM Harper is by far the least Statemen-like PM we have ever ever had. these adds just perpetrate the collective mythos that he eats puppies and beats up old ladies for fun in his free time. Canada deserves better than this. Also: nice transparent attempt at diversion from recent Conservative PR disasters..


Walter
said

The big kahuna of climate change is the process of glacial advance and retreat. Several times in the past two million years the northern hemisphere was covered in 2 mile thick glaciers all the way to New York City. Right now we're ten thousand years into what looks like an interglacial period that typically lasts about ten thousand years. If history is any guide we should expect in the next little while some severe cooling. Thing is, climatologists really don't seem to know what causes this process or when we can expect the next glacial advance. Yet they predict disaster from global warming. What about global cooling? It seems to me the so called "science" of climatology is in the stone age. Scientists seem to have no solid idea what causes climate change let alone the massive glaciation and retreat the Earth has had in the past.


Andy
said

How in the name of anyone you may feel is holy can the Liberals try and sell a tax as "revenue neutral".

It MAY be to the government, but simple economics tells you that any additional costs will be passed on, and no matter how the spinmeisters try an show it, we, the consumers will pay for it.

That is a reality.




john davis
said

Revenue neutral? So let me get this straight, the Liberals want to introduce a Carbon tax which will be offset by lowering income tax by the "same amount" leading to neutrality. The intent of this tax is to coerce people into lowering their carbon output, thereby paying less of a carbon tax. Sounds great! Not only will I pay less income tax, but I will pay less carbon tax too.

Uh Oh.

People are paying less tax because they are environmentally conscous. How does the government then fill it's coffers? Well it'll have to introduce a new tax or raise the current ones punishing those who are "saving the planet".






ouifyg
said

I think people are missing the point of the carbon "tax". The idea is that factories reduce their carbon emmissions or else they are charged a penalty. They aren't going to want to jack up their prices, that would make them less competitive. So, they will have to try to lower emmissions. Where's the down side?

Also Kendell, you said
"The proposed Carbon Tax will be a disaster. Look to Europe for proof!"
If Europe is a disaster, then what would you call what we have here. Our governments have the same problems as them with the economy, except they are making progress on the environment where as we are doing nothing. Look to Germany for a good example. Government subsidy in that country has turned the solar and wind industries into booming business! That's what we should be doing, it's good for everyone!


Anticonformist
said

Any party that thinks about introducing a carbon tax or a carbon credit system will result in a backlash. Go ahead, fiberals, just admit you want another tax scheme just like the promise to ditch the GST.

How about come with the idea of building oil refineries in Canada and hell with the Al Gore types.


Jason Daniel Baker
said

So no election? WELL PLAYED!


Sask Man
said

People that think that this Carbon Tax is a good thing must be driving bikes??

This would be a brutal thing at this time.


Binky
said

This whole "carbon tax" scheme is an attack on The West. LIB = NEP. When it comes to the bad old days of the National Energy Program, how should I put this just right? Je me souviens. That's why we are and always shall be, Conservative Country. And we don't much care for metric, either.


Vince M
said

Because of rising oil prices you have had the equivalent of a 20 cent/litre carbon tax on gasoline this year.

Did it reduce the amount of driving by any noticable amount?



James Boddy
said

Quoting Garth Turner? I could only imagine the Canadian press doing just that if he had been a Liberal defector! The Canadian media are a left wing joke!!


Jay
said

When has any tax been revenue neutral. Someone will have to pay for a new tax and in every case any new cost is always passed to the consumer.

I'm in no disagreeing with the fact we need to cut our emissions. Just don't try to spin us into believe a we can have a new tax without us paying.


Mark
said

What a good idea. Tax me again/still.

I have a Dalton McGuinty "Health Premium" (not a tax I guess), a new surtax as a taxpayer in Toronto courtesy of David Miller and there is talk of more.

I'm paying $1.40/litre for gas at the pump. David Miller wants to close our pools in Toronto because we are cash strapped-but then at the same time spend hundreds of $ millions to flatten out the Gardiner Expressway. Don't tell me for a second that this project won't end up costing me more tax. Miller also wants to impose toll-roads-for roads already paid for by my TAX dollars.

...so no thanks Federal Liberals. I've had quite enough taxes as of late. I still remember Jean Chretien's "I'll axe the tax" slogan.

Seems it took Stephen Harper to drop that GST down-such a thing is foreign to a Liberal.


David Layte
said

I hope Dion sticks to his guns and goes ahead with this policy. That should guarantee a Conservative majority. When will the lefty loonies learn that the working class Canadians that they claim to represent do NOT like taxes.There is no such thing as a revenue neutral tax especially if the Liberals are proposing it. There is more chance that Dion, May, Layton, Suzuki et al will appear in ads for Lincoln Navigators and Chevy Suburbans. As a side note Turner's comments smack of the worst sort of leftist "we know what is best for the ignorant, unwashed masses" drivel. Typical.


David in Ontario
said

If the liberal tax is really "revenue neutral", why have a tax at all? Why not just redirect the existing revenue? There MUST be a reason to introduce a "new" tax. Let me forecast it: when it's introduced, the so-called reductions will be delayed due to "implementation rules" and the like...




Dwight
said

Liberals are the king of tax scams. Just take a quick look at their history. These carbon taxes are a pure and simple money grab. They (both libs and cons)have yet to do a damn thing about the environment and have no vision of what should be done or could be done. How about financial incentives for people switching to solar power and other alternatives (wind etc),instead of taking more money out of my pocket? How about helping us all make the switch and give back some of our taxes so that we can make the switch instead of pilfering more from us. Think of the investment back into local business. All these politcal hacks can think of is how they can skin the taxpayer.


RRO
said

This will not only affect fuel costs it will affect everything.

It will costs more jobs in the auto industry.

It will raise the cost of food, because food has to be moved by trucks.

It will hit canadians hard every day in their regular lives.

This is the tax that will keep on giving it, to average middle and lower class canadians.

Another great gift from the Liberal Party, and their bungling leader Stephane Dion.


Jim
said

Any tax on industry and manufacturing is inflationary. Those higher costs will be down loaded to the consumer.

With inflation comes higher interest rates, higher dollar. Just what we need to stem a recession, eh.

The liberal answer to everything is taxes. Problem is, it won't achieve anything regarding reversing global warming. It just makes it more expensive to live.



DWB
said

Carbon tax? Isn't there a tax on diamonds already? Oh, yeh, on graphite and other carbon products too.

Not to worry. Liberals put getting elected ahead of (their twisted) principle, so it won't happen. That's what Garth Turner is calling for. That's why he jumped parties.

Would Canadians really believe if you "carbon" tax oil companies, that it won't show in higher gas prices?

More Liberal dumbing down of Canadians.


Roadrobber
said

I actually saw the CTV Newsnet intervew with Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis. He didn't answer the questions directly as posed by the interviewer and it seemed as though he was answering the questions by reading from a cue card. The Liberals are hiding something on this one. I don't think the carbon tax will play out like they're spinning it and it certainly won't be revenue neutral. They obviously have a hidden agenda and they've gone from Canada's naturally governing party to the gang that couldn't shoot straight. The Liberals can't seem to agree on anything.


MHR
said

When will people learn? This is not new tax. this is just merely shifting tax = switch tax!

No increase or decrease - only for people who are wasteful with their lifestyle.

that is what we are target. I see no objection with USA'S SIN TAX?


Dallas
said

Thank God for the Liberal writers on this, I needed a good laugh today. Someone wrote that at least they're trying something. Are you kidding me? This is a typical liberal move to try and look like they're trying to do the right thing but all it will do is cost each of us more in taxes. More pressure needs to be put on China and India (the major polluters) and more of my money needs to stay in my pocket.


RRO
said

Where will the money from this new tax be spent, on another Liberal payoff to their supporters. Will it disappear?

Average families are already suffering because of the amount of taxes on gas, and they propose making it even more expensive.

I am all about enviromental protection. But when you talk about fuel alternatives as a justification for stoping our "gas drunk" society, I would like to see these so called alternatives, most are not effective efficent or practicle. When they are then there is an argument to be made but for now no.

The Liberals can't stand that Canadians have some money in their pockets again, and want to find a way to take it.

Say NO to higher taxes.
Say No to Stephane Dion


sarah
said

What's extra humorous about Garth Turner coming out and saying that the carbon tax is a bad idea is that He's Dion's Communications Director, who is actually in charge of pushing this whole carbon tax idea. Maybe Dion will now learn why the Tories kicked this blowhard out.


Cliff
said

Ian...get ytour facts straight...it was the Liberals that gave these hugh tax breaks to the oil companies....


Rob in the Peg
said

Everyday Canadians don't need an energy tax, whether you call it a carbon or green tax it will hurt those who can least afford it!

Let the government use all that extra oil revenue we're already paying to set up some sort of green plan to help the enviroment. Imposing a new tax, revenue neutral or not isn't the answer. We have to work with what we currently have and not break the backs of average working Canadians.



Peter
said

The time for a carbon tax was a few years ago when oil was $30 per barrel and everybody was buying SUVs. If a carbon tax with teeth had been enacted then perhaps GM would not now be shutting down plants because they would already be building hybrids and fuel-efficient cars to meet the demand. Oil at $135 acts as its own carbon tax. As noted economist Jeff Rubin said, "$200 oil will do more than 100 Kyoto Agreements"


my take on this
said

Come hell or high water I'll vote for Stephane Dion. Stephen Harper and his republican friends have to go.


sdgreen
said

The Federal government already steals to much tax. Just take the amount of tax currently charged for fuel and apply such to energy initiatives.
A carbon tax does nothing but penalize the poor and middle class, plus makes government operations way more expensive. A carbon tax creates unemploymnet and kills small business. A Carbon tax is NOT revenue neutral as any tax on energy acts as an earthquake through the entire economy.

The Dion Liberals like the BC Campbell Liberals are just do a kneejerk dance instead of really doing something.


Wise Wajid
said

Interesting how the Neo-CONS always have money to put out libelous, misleading ads and the right wing media can't wait to lap it up! Maybe bottom crawlers have no need for clean air and water, but the rest of us do. 'Somewhere the hurting has got to stop' and we have to work together on this, right-wing media included.


Taxed enough
said

Isn't it funny that the Liberals and their supporters cry foul when the shoe is on the other foot, they used attack ads in the last election in fact that is how they ran their campaign. We all know that a tax is a tax and it will not be revenue nuetral.


Doug
said

The Haper regime must be concerned if they have to bring out more bully politics. Maybe this will be revenue neutral by providing a tax break on my pay cheque. So if I take home more money and purchase less fuel, I win. Sounds good. I think I am starting to understand the Tory attacks.


glen gaffney
said

Just another tax to add to the plethora of taxes. It will increase the cost of living. greenhouse gases are well past the tipping point to clean up the enviroment. Even if we cut gas consumption 90 per cent now the earth will take 100 years to heal. Too little too late.

bunny
said

Poll after poll shows that we don't want a carbon tax. Why is dion not taking note of what we are saying


Craig
said

The only way this will be "revenue neutral" is if there is a box on my income tax form that says:

2007 fuel purchased (litres)__________

Then gives me a refundable credit that is exactly equal to the "carbon tax" I paid to fill my subcompact car.

Yes I already bought a small car and already do my part to limit carbon use.

Of course this won't happen under a Liberal government.

And it looks like the liberals are going to back off this plan because they looked at the polls and realized it wasn't as popular as they thought. Governing by the polls, where have we seen that before? Oh that's right, the years of 1993-2005.


Les J
said

Revenue neutral and temporary taxes. Oxymorons both.

Like income tax?
(Temporary Income Act of 1914)

Like GST? It was supposed to be revenue neutral and temporary too.

Anyone that believes a tax will be revenue neutral is a fool.


James-West
said

To me it just looks like Harper is in bed with big oil.


Mikael N
said

Instead of adding another tax, let's stop buying all the plastic crap from China, this will drive down the demand for oil from the asian countries and keep prices where they should be...within reason.


Terry
said

Too Funny!

Liberals bemoaning Conservative "Attack Ads" and Concervative "Fear Mongering"!

Anyone remember the last 2 elections with the Libs going on and on about how scary Harper was and about the 'Hidden Agenda' that never materialized?

Cretien made "Fear Mongering" an art form.
Anyone remember the hatchet job on Preston Manning?

Too Funny!
If it's that bad Libs please stand up on your hind legs and vote to defeat the government!
At least the Dippers walk the walk, they're the real opposition, not you clowns.

Oh yeh, can't do that if u can't win LOL!


KJ ROGERS
said

I didn't much care for the main elements Dion CARBON TAX plan -- that is until I saw the boneheaded Conservative Party attack ads.... I guess now I better rethink the issue.


Paolo
said

Garth Turner is right, we are incredibly drunk on oil. Does it hurt right now with gas prices, yes, but it's good for all of us. We need to stop our addiction to oil. Everyone whines and complains about how much more it is going to cost if this tax comes in. I have an idea, how about we remove all the government caps on electricity, water and gas. If you truly knew how much it cost for all these services I guarantee we wouldn't waste these resources. It's time we all stop being selfish and realize what we are truly doing to this world and our children's world. As a conservative supporter, I do not like Dion as a leader or the liberals, but I must admit, on this topic, as tough as it is to swallow, he is right. It is the right thing to do for our future and more importantly our children's future.


Jeff Stokes
said

Revenue neutral...thats a laugh. Revenue neutral for the government but not for you.Anybody who believes that I have some swap land for sale .

BTW anybody ever notice that when oil was 10 bucks a barrel 10 years ago gas was still 60 cents a liter. That means at todays price it should be 7.20 a liter...what a bargain we have today! Quit complaining and dump that GM gas guzzling SUV.


JeffW
said

Regardless of what you feel about the attack ads (a bit premature, in my opinion - unless they're expecting an election soon?) or even this "carbon tax" (yet another tax!), the fact is that, while being environmentally conservative may have some local gains in terms of cleaner soil, prettier landscapes, good international PR, etc., the ugly truth is that nothing we as Canadians do will have any effect on on the environment globally (I heard Canada's footprint is less than half of one percent). It's all useless unless the world's biggest polluters, including US, China and Russia, literally clean up their acts first. What happens when we sacrifice ourselves on the altar of environmentalism - you're sorely mistaken if you think those other countries won't take advantage of us any way they can.


rosie
said

A carbon tax or cap and trade scheme will certainly hurt our manufacturing sector at a time when it is the ropes in Ontario.Without a solid manufacturing base exploiting our natural resources for our economy ,what are we left with?If the best paying jobs in Ontario are on the public dime(police,teachers,firemen,healthcare,public servants etc)there will come a day when we won't be able to afford it and there will be layoffs in these fields. I do my best to conserve, recycle, reuse and so on but this whole carbon crap smells. It is most important now to protect jobs and our livelihood.


Kellie
said

A CARBON TAX IS NOT NEUTRAL!!

Follow the logic and forget the political spin. If oil refineries, natural gas companies, manufacturing plants, etc. are carbon taxed by the Liberals....then the only recourse for these companies is to shift this increase onto the consumer.

The result is higher gas prices, higher heating costs, higher food costs etc.

The average person should be able to understand this concept immediately. If not, they have more money than brains!




Northern Ontario
said

Wow all of the talk over the last couple of years about a hidden agenda seems to be true only it is the Liberals with a hidden agenda.

People got angry when the Finance minister said Ontario is the last place to invest in Canada because of taxes. Well taxes don't even compare with damage done by the fight against global warming. Carbon tax, cap and trade, Kyoto, all of these were ideas thrown out with little or no thought behind how they actually work. How do you plan a business when you don't know all of the costs.

For example Mcguinty signs a deal on cap and trade with Charest. There is no frame work on how to calculate what your cap is? Now GM shuts down a plant that makes the biggest gas guzzlers around, common sense says this is what the green movement wants why were Layton and Dion at a rally to keep open a plant that produces a product nobody wants?

There is a reason why people criticize the Conservative plan. This is the only plan that actually has a chance of addressing the problem while allowing the econmy to progress.

The Ontario Liberals have shown what the public really wants lots of talk, (I will close our coal fired plants) absolutely no action.


Rachel
said

Has it occured to anyone that just mabe this so called effort to save the environment will result in more people turning to wood heat. WE ARE. We have been forced to. I don't think that the Liberals thought of that in B.C. Has it occured to them that there will be more people staying home than being active. The carbon tax is nothing more than a smoke screen to pay for the elitist olympics that they have already gone way over budget on. How about if we go back to the horse and buggy,that way they can impose a road apple tax. Next thing they will come up with air filters for cow bums. I supported Harper untill he reduced the child tax credit by 80$ then handed us 100$ that we have to pay tax on. What a dirty trick. If people REALLY want to help the environment,then go organic,recycle and buy local. Plant trees,stop killing song birds with pesticides. No ammount of money is going to save the environment. People using their brain will.


Raymond
said

Slander?
These ads are pretty mild compared to the unbelievably crass 'character assassination' ads put out by the Liberals in the past. Handguns pointed at the audience, girls in abortion clinics, distintegrating Canadian flags, aircraft carriers, smearing of canadian soldier's reputations (soldiers in our streets), etc, etc.
Dion will drive us into the dirt with this stupid, unnecessary, carbon tax. Gasoline is $1.50/l, folks...ask GM/Ford/Chrysler which direction auto-buyers are trending and what effect this has on consumption.


Brian Smith
said

Yeah, sure. The Liberal plan is to tax the "big polluters" like the refineries.
OK, does anyone other than Stephen Dion and Jack Layton not realize that it is a fundamental law of economcs that a company will pass on added costs in the price of its product?


Mitch
said

A tax on "polluters" is also a tax on everyday people. You can say all you want that its just a tax on "Big Oil" but if you tax companies more they in turn will raise prices to make up for lost costs due to this tax... so the tax is just passed from the companies to everyday people.. and as for offsetting cost by decreasing income tax.. how can you calculate how much each person will spend on fuel or goods... how would the government know how much to cut taxes by..you can't cause every person spends different amounts... stupid plan and bad politics


Richard
said

Revenue Neutral, much like the Gun Registry right? What a crock. We can always trust a government to do what's right with our money eh!!


Mel Blake
said

I seem to remember that the Liberals said at the time that the GST would be revenue neutral and be offset by reduced costs in the manufacturing sector. The manufacturing sector simply pocketed the money and we paid billions. The gun registry was also supposed to only cost $10 million. So you'll have to wonder how anybody could think the tax would ever be revenue neutral. It's just not credible.


dave
said

Dion has a taxpayer paid house, taxpayer paid car, taxpayer paid utilities, etc. No wonder he likes a carbon tax. Out of touch, and out of his mind, out of his league.


Martin G
said

Revenue neutral eh? So what programs are the Liberals going to cut when they give income and other tax breaks in favour of this plan?

The money has to come from somewhere. Aren't the Liberals the same people who have been complaining that Conservative cuts have left us precariously close to running a deficit? And now they want us to believe that they will cut more and yet will have enough to implement a new and massive bureaucracy?

This is nothing more than a cash grab, don't be lied to Canada.


Doug BC
said

"It's neutral". Not there's a real joke. I have some glass igloos to sell to anyone who believes that. Liberals will raise the fuel tax to everyone,and MAYBE make equal tax cuts to something else. But those tax cut will be for their friends,and special interest groups that support them.
I do not like either Mr.Harper,or his government. They need to do more to improve the environment.
BUT, I will not vote for any party that thinks imposing more poverty on Canada is a good trade off for the minimal impact we can have on global GHG emissions.
As a life long Liberal supporter,I have to say to Mr. Dion and Mr.Campbell in BC's legislature, "good bye".
These taxes make rich people richer, poor people much poorer, and accomplish almost nothing.


Frank Buchan
said

The problem with the carbon tax is it cannot discriminate, and it will be passed on. It will be felt most by the people least able to pay for it, like those who don't pay much or any income tax now -- fixed income seniors, single-parents, etc. We all have to heat our homes, eat, and so forth. So, in the end it means we would have to once again provide some mechanism to shield these people from its impact, which means more taxes for social policy payments, because giving an income tax break to someone who doesn't pay any is dysfunctional.

As for those who like this plan (an ill-conceived and incompleete vision, if that word even applies), consider that once it is in place we will never see the end of it. Like the "temporary" income tax introduced last century, it will become a revenue stream in and of itself.

My worst feel for this plan is that even if we believe it to be revenue neutral (even Liberal numbers indicate it is not), it is not really effectively doing anything about the environment -- especially if it is revenue neutral. Think about it: we need to start to make investment in alternative energy a trend, and that means spending money on it in a structured way. Directed tax cuts to introduce environmental measures would work because it is an incentive-based program. How does a carbon tax work? It's revenue stream flows back out according to the revenue-neutral nonsense, but undirected toward the environment?

Like all of Dion's well-intended rhetoric, this is just more noise.

As for the CPC, they need to do more. It took a century to get to this point, and may take a century to get out of the dependency mess, but we need to start forming solutions more rapidlym rather than just talking endlessly.

Sadly, carbon taxes don't provide an intelligent response to a complex problem.


John A
said

The Conservatives say no to the tax - and want to reduce taxes. Yet I don't see them doing anything about our current gaz taxes?

If they continue to moan and groan about how they want to drop taxes and remove some of the taxes that the Liberals brought in, how come they haven't done anything?


daveyboy
said

This carbon tax. Supposedly " revenue neutral " Do you seriously think the Liberals will introduce a carbon tax and then go and reduce some of the other taxes we pay. HaHaHaHa! I'm going to pee my pants. Not on your life will that happen. They're liars and from our past experience with the Liberals , we should all no that.


Rich
said

Revenue neutral?
If the libs raise $5B in this new tax shift and spend $5B....that is revenue neutral to THEM.
To US....it's still $5B out of ouir pockets.
This is a shell-game or 3 card monte at its finest.
The ripple efects of such a plan would be horrendous....everything would cost more and taxes (sorry...."shifts") that industry would incur would be passed directly along to....US!
Not only would the cost of everything go up, our local taxes would too....the local govt's would pass along the additional costs by raising local taxes.
Yes ...this is one fine plan.....NOT.



Scott in Montreal
said

I for one will not stand to be bombarded with Conservative verbal diarrhea while filling at the pump! What's next, the Cons blasting out ads during previews that the movie we are about to watch is not Christian-rated?


The Bet
said

"will not affect people at the pumps..." Doesn't every tax eventually affect the people. It will eventually affect everyone at some cost. Get real Jim Karygiannis!


Robe
said

Ok, no matter how "revenue-neutral" you aim to be, the initial costs will be borne by the consumer since it takes the government too damn long to reimburse through the system anyway. Any additional tax will be felt through the system.
Personally, I'd like to see an immediate reduction in our gas taxes, a cap on gas exports and local refinery profits. Something needs to be done soon, the costs are killing the average consumer and businesses.
BTW: I drive a hybrid and it is costing me $30 in gas to take my daughter to see her grandparents. Where's the sense in that?!


Norm
said

Income tax cuts to offset the increase in fuel taxes won't help those who pay little or no income taxes. Yet Dion and his bunch have either forgot about these people or are willing to sacrifice them. Just me thinking, but this Liberal plan seems to be a way of regaining the lost GST money without raising the GST to where the Liberals want it.


MRC
said

It's been said before and it should be said again & again & again...
How in the world can you trust a Liberal to introduce a "revenue-neutral" tax?!

Here's also something else that should be said again & again & again...
Fundamental changes in technology, our economic structure, and consumption (# of people) is the ONLY way to make our future better. Everything else is a waste of time and consideration of more (or adjusted) taxation is just absurd.


P.S. I wonder if Garth Turner will ever make the mistake again & divulge Liberal caucus behind-closed-doors information on his blog like he did when he was with the Conservatives...and I wonder if the Liberals will have the integrity to chew him up for it just as the Conservatives did?...


Big Tim
said

Liberal carbon tax will not affect people at the pumps???? This just shows the shortsightedness of the Liberals and how out of touch they are with reality - as soon as the carbon tax is introduced, the factories (which will include refineries) will pass on any tax costs to consumers by raising their prices - Dion and his crew are forever lost in a theoretical lala land.


gord
said

The Fiberals have expressed their desire to add a carbon tax. So where is the fear mongering? I just don't see it. I have never seen the Liberals lean so far to the left before.


Bill
said

Why does a tax always have to be the answer for every question with the Liberals? Just make the people pay, pay, pay...and pay some more. Can't they come up with something different for a change. Tell them to try and come up with something that would actually do some good. Now that would be a nice change!


Lynn
said

Regardless of the denials coming out of Ottawa and here in Victoria we are going into a recession. Increasing fuel costs are effecting all goods from raw materials to completed goods ready for sale.Here is B.C. Terrason Gas is wanting to increase rates by 11%. Canadians simply can't handle another tax increase at the present time. Although it may make sense for Mr. Dion to hop on the popular green band wagon his timing is off. (Is your adviser a former Tory?) If governments were genuine on tackling CO2 emissions than why the heck are they building more bridges and widening roads and highways? It is a tax grab plain and simple.


ance
said

A word to the wise...
I don't think the government or the opposition can promise us a painless transition from our endless and mindless energy consumption to something more sustainable.

Vote hungry politicians will always claim that their plan will do it.

Use your own head and do all you can to conserve, don't imagine that it can all happen by someone else doing something.

In the long run, reduced consumption of hydrocarbon fuels is the only thing that will help us both economically and environmentally.



shayne
said

Revenue neutral? If it is revenue neutral then why do they have to bring in a new tax? Why not just reappropriate funds/existing taxes?
Something tells me that if it does come in revenue neutral than it wont stay that way for long. Good luck trying to repeel or modify a tax once it is in force. Look how long it took to modify the gst. Several administrations.


Ian
said

I say do what the Conservatives did to the liberals, Sue the bastards for slander. They are saying things publicly even though the policy has not been released nor made public yet It's the same thing and would look good on Harper and his clan of nitwits. Plus how about Harper giving HUGE tax breaks to the same oil companies he's now using to spread this crap. I believe Mr. Dion when he says he won't tax at the pumps and the conservatives are doing this becuase they have NO plan for the enviroment at all. They even knocked Quebec and Ontario for signing an agreement last week saying it won't work. At least they are trying to make something work which is better then what the conservatives have done.They've been beatan to the punch on every enviromental issue so far.


steve I. C.
said

The conservatives are going to have to do better than attack ads, its the tories we don't trust. The question is whether Canadians will be tricked again into voting for Harper?


Paul B
said

""A carbon tax will be for the bigger polluters -- the factories and the people spewing all kinds of garbage into the air. That's where the tax would be."

Well, I'm sure that should make those workers in the manufacturing sector feel better. Think companies such as GM, won't factor in carbon taxes on their bottom line when deciding where to make new investment? Anyone stupid enough to believe companies won't pass the cost of the tax down to the consumer?

And Dion wants to tax electricity, heating oil and gas? Sorry, I can't control the weather. And if i get hit with a bitter winter like the most recent one, I'll have no choice but to cough up more in carbon tax. Meanwhile, China will continue with it's plan to open 500+ coal-fired generating plants. Brilliant!!


Kendell
said

Nice. Tax the powerplants, electricity goes up. Tax the factories, cost of goods go up... along with layoffs. They may not tax gasoline directly, but everything from utilities, heating oil, and natural gas will be affected, not to mention basic necessities like food.
The proposed Carbon Tax will be a disaster. Look to Europe for proof!


Danny
said

I don't believe the Liberals when they say their plan will be revenue neutral. It is as simple as that. They have no credibility anymore.

Further, I'm about to start a job with an oil company in Alberta. In all honesty, good for the enviroment or not, I'm not willing to take a 50% pay cut to benefit the planet, when it won't make a difference what Canada does anyway without the US, Russia, China, India, etc. on baord.


BOBT
said

The Liberals, nor any other government have ever put in a revenue neutral tax. No matter how they spin it, the taxpayers will get screwed.


John
said

How can this be revenue neutral???? I will be affected by this tax no matter what. Do you think that any company that has the tax implemented against them won't pass it on to me?


david
said

Would you really want the bunch of disorganized, no-policy, spend crazy liberals running your company?
Tax-shifting is liberal spin which really means, Tax-shafting!


Dave Roberts
said

According to the Liberal proposal the tax is not revenue neutral as claimed. The $17B carbon tax will be offset with $10-13B in income tax cuts. The carbon tax proposal may have its merits but it's still a tax grab.


Robin
said

Predictable Tory propaganda from a party unfit and incapable of governing without toxic partisanship. These vitriloic and misleading 'ads' should make every Canadian nauseous because the Harperoid thinks that Canadians are not intelligent enough to discern fact from fiction.

Mike
said

I hope this ridiculous ad campaign backfires on the conservatives. If they don't know the facts about the carbon tax yet, and what it will entail, how can they put out these ads?


Dale Wilson
said

This is all we need - yet another tax - yet another example of the loonie lefties disconnect with economic reality. Oil at $140 a bbl will curb demand, increase incentives for efficiency and alternatives and work far quicker than any government program ever could.

A tax is a tax is a tax. Revenue neutral - oh yeah, we've all seen that work with government before. Yet another huge bureaucracy created to administer a federal program - revenue neutral my arse.


Jan
said

The Liberals may call the Conservative ads "Fear mongering" after all thats all the Liberals did in the last election, and the ones before that. But it works to be pre-emptive and the Conservatives are in the drivers seat, where they should be.


Paul
said

If it's neutral and no additional taxes up front to the consumer then so be it.

In almost three years of power these CON artists have brainwashed many small minded people and will continue to do so. They have done very little positive for Canada in the time they have been in... All their talks are hot talks and they have spent so much Canada is close to a first deficit in 13 years.

They are now desparate in the measure they take.




Kevin
said

IF the East votes in this clown Dion, then we can kiss whatever money we have left over after paying tax, because everything will go up. Oil companies will just pass the extra cost on to us!
This will be the nail in the cofin for sure.


John
said

Sounds like a good plan to me. Hope we start looking at what things will cost if we do nothing to change what we are doing to the environment.


David
said

I won't vote for a new tax no matter how they explain it. They get enough from me now. Figure out a program or two to cut and do what you want. As long as it costs me nothing, or there is a tax reduction.
If they go to the polls with this strategy, don't look for my vote.


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