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Beware opening door to online surveillance, critics say

U.S. cyber crime, cyber crime, Department of Defense Cyber Crime Center
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Date: Tuesday Feb. 21, 2012 6:34 PM ET

OTTAWA — Opponents of the government's online surveillance bill say Canada should look to its allies for cautionary tales before pushing ahead with measures that would erode Internet freedom.

Experiences in other jurisdictions such as the United States and Britain show no evidence of improved crime-fighting ability and "overwhelming evidence of increased surveillance," said Micheal Vonn of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association.

The Canadian legislation would allow police, intelligence and competition bureau officers access to Internet subscriber information -- including name, address, telephone number, email address and Internet Protocol address -- without a warrant. An IP address is the numeric label assigned to a computer on the Internet.

It would also require telecommunication service providers to have the technical capability to enable police and spies to intercept messages and conversations.

The government says its proposed legislation is consistent with that of the United States, Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

The international examples demonstrate that when authorities are given more powers to keep an eye on Internet surfers, they definitely use them, said Vonn.

"If you build it, they will come," she said.

The government insists the bill will improve Canada's ability to work with its international partners to fight crime and terrorism.

But critics question the rationale for the legislation altogether, saying no one has made a strong case that the current system -- based on voluntary compliance and warrants -- isn't working well.

"We're not seeing a very strong need for these bills, and we're seeing an expansion of surveillance powers that basically begs for abuse," said Lindsey Pinto, a spokeswoman for OpenMedia.ca, which has helped lead opposition to the measures.

Some warn that legislation without strong oversight and other protections will invite problems of the kind seen abroad.

Inappropriate access to the sort of transactional data -- not the content, but all of a message's identifiers -- that Canadian authorities seek under the bill is a "common problem" in both Britain and the United States, says a research paper by Christopher Parsons, a University of Victoria doctoral student who has studied the issue.

"In the U.S. the problem is far more significant," he writes. "The U.S. suffers from endemic inappropriate surveillance."

The U.S. National Security Agency eavesdropping service ran a warrantless wiretapping system with the assistance of major telecommunications providers, while the FBI has repeatedly strayed over the line when collecting information, he notes.

The American experience shows law enforcement agencies tend to access communications data inappropriately when there is unclear -- or no --judicial oversight, he adds.

Research in Britain indicates people have been placed under surveillance for minor infractions such as littering and smoking in a public place.

The Canadian government cites safeguards in its bill, including record-keeping requirements and regular internal audits to ensure the powers aren't abused.

But it's not yet clear how they would work.

"We do need to make sure that there is clear oversight and really meaningful deterrence from abuse," said Pinto.

Being slower than its key allies to implement such legislation, Canada is in the ideal position take a different approach, said Vonn.

"As usual we're being told we're way behind and we have to do exactly the same thing."

Comments are now closed for this story

das967able
said

Well Lets just throw away our rights shove RFID chips into everyone's arm monitor everyone into paranoia and jump into a full scale revolt.... Wait this sounds a lot like Greece, US, and Egypt... I thought that maybe since 3 other countries tried this and it failed WHY WOULD Canada Try... Can we please just act like this never cross our minds and put this bill away. Ratify it and the world will revolt.

We are Anonymous. We are Legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us.


coopns
said

Bill C-30 is bad for democracy. This bill has a hidden agenda more then what they claim it was intended to do. The " If you have nothing to hide, then whats the problem" crowd are naive. If they think the goverment will not use this for its own purposes they are sadly mistaken. Since there will be no oversight or warrent then it is more then likely going to be abused and used for unintended purposes. I believe this goverment will use it to spy on its opposition, intimidate protest groups, rein in decent, and crush legitimate movements. His inflammatory rhetoric of "your either for us or against us" is truely unCanadian and unDemocratic. Harper is drunk with power and hates any form of criticism of his goverment. Utimately he is moving the nation toward a fascist state with him as dictator.What really makes me sad is how Canadians are all to willing to surrender their civil liberties and rights without objection. I guess the cardigan sweater has come off and he is revealed for what he truely is. Follow Canadians remember this on election day.


Says I - Ottawa
said

In today's Ottawa Citizen article by Andrew Coyne front page..."Modernization of Investigative Techniques" by Liberals in 2005 - the Minister for Public Safety was Anne McLellan who quoted to the effect ( that police need New Powers to go after terrorists and child pornographers) this is more or less what Vic Toews said yet no argument when this was put forward by the Liberals.....what is different.


Maybe I'm Amazed
said

I'm really amazed by some of these comments here, by the ones I could actually get through, by the misinformation and paranoia from people who are online and should know that online activity is not private; cookies track you, websites have site meters that log IP and location, Google targets ads to words in your email, Facebook has no privacy at all, neither does Twitter, or Flickr, or a host of other much used sites. But I really don't think cops are gonna care who you're chatting with about the size of your eggplants. Lol. People really need to put their ego to bed.


Zaphod
said

Toews must resign! He has the nerve to suggest quite vocally and publicly that anyone opposing the bill sides with kid porographers and he never even read the bill!!! This guy is a menace and it's almost hysterical that he is our "Public Safety Minister".This same rhetoric grew stale with Bush's cronies saying if you werent with them you were with the "terrorists".Get Toews out NOW!


The Real TonyD
said

Hello!
Here is an idea. Everybody, and I mean everybody, turn off your internet and start using the old ways again. What is left for the government to do, read your mail? Or should they place wire taps on every phone, or perhaps wire up your tv's like 1984 BIG BROTHER style.
I think England has long been in 1984 Mode and America is not far behind. Look at the leaders and followers of this trend.
England was first with CCTV everywhere, Australia and New Zealand followed and now Canada wishes to be part of the old British Empire's way. Imagine then, the Libs never thought that being Brit was part of Canada's image, and infact they worked hard to remove Canada from that type of scene. We became a true country with our own international held views. This did us well with the international communities.
Now the blue boys seem to have a longing for the good old empire days and are doing everything to make it so. Diefenbaker was a looser, Molroney was a looser and Harper and company today are the biggest of the lot. Amen


Kevin
said

This incredible, the first time I've seen comments on CTV site matching those on CBC on any issue. Clearly the majority of both the left leaning and right leaning crowds seem to be on the same page and yet the government is not listening. We ALL need to stand up together on this one, put aside differences on other issues and speak in one voice to protect our freedoms for all Canadians. This is an important one folks, lets remind the government they work for us.


Josh
said

Hiarken
I don't support this bill but many people don't know what freedom means some think they can say what every they want even a complete lie and they can't be touched why because its a free country there are some that don't think we should have any laws.


Pip
said

I oppose the bill and hope it gets its teeth pulled in committee before it goes back for first reading - if it ever gets back. Posters refer to the government as fascist, Nazi, communist and Big Brother; why not use the word totalitarian which applies to all. As I remember, the current government gained a majority of seats last May according to the law, not like the Nazis in Germany or the Communists in Russia in 1917.. Nearly 40% of eligible voters could not be bothered to vote, possibly causing the present government to be in power. However it IS in power, and IS entitled to introduce legislation or not, as the PM decides; remember how Chretien promised to abolish GST? Never happened. However, rather than posting your displeasure on this board, why not get everyone to bombard their MP of whatever party with mail, preferably snail mail so they actually have to do something other than create a mailing list and email a single reply. If you don't like the way things are going, use the system against your MP to the point where s/he will oppose it. But to use the system you have to learn about it and not make assumptions. You want change? Join the party (whichever) with your friends until you have the local majority and eventually the national majority. How do you think Harper and company recovered after Mulroney? Educate yourselves, and not just about this bill that places too much power in the hands of too few.


Josh
said

Joe Canadian says VIC Toews MUST RESIGN!!

No i don't think its illegal are there issues no question as for the charter that applies to all that does not mean you can go online do what every you want.


fredinprinceton
said

Heh-heh.....Now everyone knows just how the lawful owners of firearms felt when the Liberal government made paper crimnals out of them.If, however) you read the law thoroughly you will see that it is not the infringement on rights that so many seem to think it is.As far as the pro gun registry crowd goes, I can only say, "Suck it up sweetcheeks. you helped open the door."


BC Individualist
said

The Vancouver Police came out in the news supporting this new law ...what a surprise !These are the same people who supported the wasteful Long Gun Registry ... it was the Vancouver RCMP that Tasered to death that poor soul at the airport ... impaired charges overall are down in BC but impaired charges in BC against Police Officers are up ... they recently convicted a Vancouver Police officer for selling drugs from his police car ..... they are in the process of convicting a Vancouver RCMP for killing a motorcyclist while driving then leaving the scene to go have a drink so he could not be charged with impaired.If anyone thinks this new law no matter how it's written would be applied properly, responsibly or fairly by Canadian Police Forces should have their head examined.Does this mean I have to surrender my IP Address to authorities for posting this comment ?


Dave in F'ton
said

Quoting an article: Everyone has things to hide. If I have a serious health concern, I want to be able to consult my GP without worrying my wife. If I'm looking for a new job, there is no reason why I should have to reveal that to my employer. In fact, if even I've committed a serious crime, been convicted, rehabilitated and paid my debt to society, why should I be obliged to reveal that history to my neighbours if I pose no threat to them? Should my friends know if I've got an unauthorised overdraft, or if I've downloaded perfectly legal adult content from the Internet? I've done none of these things, and am in no particular rush to, but I demand the right to privacy if those situations arise." "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" is a myth, a fallacy, a trojan horse wheeled out by those who can't justify their surveillance schemes, databases and privacy invasions.


Joe Canadian says VIC Toews MUST RESIGN!!
said

Franck Commonsens is 100% correct. You can drive down ANY street in this country and find a Wireless Network unsecured, and open to be used for anything the interloper desires, and YOU the owner will be responsible.

Even more likely, anyone in the House of Commons could spoof the IP that was used by someone else, and make it look like someone else was the culprit. I won't say how this is done because I do not wish to spawn thsi kind of behaviour.

The RCMP will know this, so any investigation they undertake will never find the culprit. Catching the culprit doesn't matter anyway, since the material presented by him, or her was public info anyway. And it serves Vic Toews better if the culprit remains unknown, don't you think?

In the end, this bill C-30 is illegal, per the following in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms(8):

8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

The furor about this bill is all about us being called Child Abuser supporters because we insist upon our right to be secure from unreasonable search of seizure.

Vic Toews is wrong when he suggests are against bill C-30 supports those who molest children or those who profit from it. There are 33,000,000 people in Canada, and 32,999,999 of us think Vic was very wrong to suggest what he has, and frankly he should resign for those comments. In addition, bill C-30 should NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY!!

My name is JOE, and I AM CANADIAN




Bumcrack USA
said

Jonathan from Saskatoon, I suggest you read Section 34 of the act or --- better yet --- if you need it explained to you, you can google "milewski" and "big brother". Section 34 allows anyone named by the government (inspectors, etc,) to walk into a Internet supplier and copy anytthing from their systems and servers... anything, without warrant, cause or justification.


John
said

The natural tendency of any government bureaucrat will be to gather as much such confidential information as possible, on any whim.

If this sounds far-fetched, consider that the pace of technological change will allow any such information to be obtained, and stored indefinitely at minimal cost.

Algorithms arbitrarily aligned to any conceivable pattern of access could be applied to anyone, or any group, without their knowledge.

Any rebuttals that the Conservatives apply to restricting such usage by way of "regulations safeguarding freedom" would be tantamount to creating an agency to "ensure freedom from government agencies".

Preserve our freedom.

Our government has enough real responsibilities to fight, real people to take care of, and real opportunities to take advantage of.

This comes from an independent who would keep this issue at the forefront before ever voting Tory again.

I believe in individual rights and freedoms, not an any cost, but certainly before I yield broad "observation and information accumulation" measures to nameless bureaucrats.

Concerned Canadian



BtVS
said

To the people who say they have nothing to hide:

Soon, you`ll have no place to hide. You`re naive to believe that losing privacy on your cellular and internet usage won`t lead to privacy lost in other aspects of your life. This power will be abused and will only open the door to more spying bills with the guise of public safety in the years ahead.



Canadian Hawk
said

I don't understand why certain Canadians are inclined to allow the goverment to take away your privacy. If you have no problem with the goverment spying on you, and stripping you of your GOD given right to have some privacy, then your as guilty as those German Citizen in WW2, that knew what was happening in those death camps and said nothing... So ask yourself what's worse, believing someone who has never read the bill, and have them tell you to give up your rights, because its going to protect your children, or giving up your private life, and allowing the goverment to rule you in fear.just like those German citizens did in WW2. I thought that's why our soldiers died in the trenches, to never let these type of evil goverments see the light of day. - " It's ok, we don't mind, " is what the pesants said when they we're asked to clean up the bodies from the near by Death Camp" after the Russian and Americans showed up. - Unfortunately if this bill is passed, nobody is coming to our rescue, ever. We become slaves to our goverment. The end


Tim
said

"If you haven't done anything wrong" and other such lame excuses for why anyone who opposes this bill is "the bad guy" are absolutely hideous arguments. They're petty, ignore the facts of the situation and betray the inability of some people to actually look at an argument from both sides. If you have nothing to hide you wouldn't mind me looking through your garbage, right? If you have nothing to hide you wouldn't mind cameras in your house, right? If you have nothing to hide you wouldn't mind me just wandering through your house every once in awhile, whenever I feel like it... just in case, right? I'm only looking out for the children after all. If you've answered "no" to any of these, maybe you can begin to understand that even people who have nothing to hide don't enjoy being watched all the time. Or maybe you enjoy being treated like a criminal, since you're so quick to imply anyone who is against unwarranted surveillence "has something to hide" .Seriously, have a deep thought for once and try to look at the big picture. After all, if you haven't done anything wrong, there's nothing to worry about by doing so... right?


blowhole
said

During the last election, the CPC banned people from campaign events based on the contents of their Facebook pages. What uses do you think they will make of the access this law will give them?


Lorraine
said

I was AGAINST the Long Gun Registry for I thought it to invade people's pivacy.

Why on earth anyone, with an iota of common sense would agree to this and mostly those whom APPLAUDED for the destruction of the Long Gun Registry ?

We do not need a POLICE STATE! Yes, we do have criminals whom have to be better "punished" but Mr. Harper, if you're reading these, don't let this thing happen or you risk loosing many votes.

We're not Americans and WE are not as PARANOID as Americans are...So Mr. Prime Minister and all the Conservative Team please start breathing through the nose. RELAX...


JR
said

Privacy and hiding illegal activities are not one and the same thing. I can assure you that there is nothing criminal or illegal in the content of my love letters, but the information is personal and private and should remain so, unless I say otherwise. Giving any entity sweeping powers over our private information will turn out to be a colossal mistake.


Hiarken
said

The more I look at this bill the angrier I get. The government can not be trusted with Carte blanche surveillance powers.
If they can't run a simple gun registry how can they keep decent over site on the ones doing the surveillance?
Have a organization that surveils the organization that does the surveillance?
Then who surveils them?
This idea is so convoluted it would make George Orwell look like a guy who did nothing, but create soup can labels.
Ask for a warrant. It's worked in the past. It works now.
And speaking of work, if law enforcement wants to hunt down pedophiles and their ilk do it the old fashioned way......Investigate.
Don't be so bloody lazy. Capturing criminals is not supposed to be as easy as toasting a freakin' Pop-Tart.
The bill is an invasion of personal liberty and privacy and I for one will count my government as my enemy, never to be trusted and never to be defended.
This is Canada, not England; that's why we all came here.
Remember?


Josh
said

Darren In Sudbury
I have many issues with this bill i think it goes to far but to say this is a tyranny we have to have laws and as is aid why i have many issues with this bill i also take issues to that think they should be able to do what every they please online like it or not we need laws.Lets not forget its some on the far left that do try and limit free speech the far right is no matter both sides have many issues the crazy thing is it was the liberals that did try and bring in the same sort of bill.


Blake
said

To the people who believe this.
"If you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about."
*cough MORONS..*cough *cough

What if you are doing something legal, but still don't want people to know your business?

Legal activities that can get a person in trouble or fired.

Porn Surfing if your woman isn't cool with it.
Hiding Money from family or what not because you sell alot on ebay.
Chatting with a friend on how your boss is an idiot (venting frustration) on phone, text, or online.
Or what of a person struggling with there sexuality?
Or someone with a medical condition that everyone know about all of the sudden.



You know how many people are going to jump to conclusions if everyone can see what everyone is doing.

It's like living in a house. If you aren't doing anything illegal, then you don't need to hang curtains or lock your door.

Information on a person in the open be it legal or not will ALWAYS BE USED AGAINST YOU.

I agree, predators need to be caught (beaten if I catch em), but the answer is not to put everyone in jail, or treat everyone like a suspected criminal.


jayeee
said

The problem here is abuse of power. No warrant required means that any police officer, CRA officer, Customs Offiicer can access at will, my bank account , my personal I.D., whereabouts..data mining heaven..and sell my information to whomever they please....of course this is Canada where criminal organizations have nobody on the payroll within our Govt...


Angloman
said

@Dean
Dumber words have never been spoken.

Please tape your bank account number, your PIN, your SIN and all other financial information to your windows immediately.

Please leave your car doors unlocked with the keys in the ignition.

And don't forget to disable the locks on your house.



Ron Brunet
said

Not sure why the government needs to watch and listen to everyone all of a sudden. For over a 100 years in Canada we seem to have forgotten what this country was and stands for. "FREEDOM" A chance to become a citizen here and make a good life for yourself not being spied on every day. It's bad enough the government already controls the way we work vacation live and buy and sell things they need to monitor us daily as well. What for? Taliban armies in our country or Sex offenders? Not really sure. All I can say is if this goes through there is another liberty gone. How many more? They need to listen to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and I guess that's just a wothless piece of paper now. If I suspect someone is a criminal and is conducting criminal business and hanging out with criminals I would go to a judge show him the proof and evidence and get a warrant to serve before I make an arrest or search and size something. Why is it they want to go around this and gather tons of needless info on people for without a warrant and for what?


Darren in Sudbury
said

It took us thousands of years to shake off the yoke of tyranny in the form of Kings and Barons and Czars. We gradually forced those in power to accept the will of the people with the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independance and the US Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, among countless others. We instituted a system called Democracy (thank you Greece) and it eventually killed off or neutered those who would hold themselves above others, at least for the most part. Now we see our democratically elected governments, at least the right wing ones, trying to put the yokes back on. They are introducing law after law that ensures those who would be free are kept in check. The saddest part is that they are doing it with the help of the serfs and proliteriat because they buy the lame excuses of the government. After all if you don't agree with them then you must be a child pornographer, right? The slippery slope agruement gets used too often and it has lost it's punch as a result, a sort of Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome but sometimes there really is a wolf and it's name is warrant-less police snooping. It's a tool of the totalitarian governements that people around the world have been dying to ride themselves of and we just sit back and take it? Not on my watch. Damn conservatives.


AC in NB
said

I'm not understanding something. To my understanding, the internet is not that private anyways, is it. Anything you do online is pretty much there to stay, isn't it? I know I always tell my kids not to write or post any pictures online, because once you do it can be accessed by pretty much anybody. If you throw your trash to curb, it is no longer private. It seems to me that technology will be the demise of life as we know it. Remember, the internet is a want not a need. Don't like the rules, don't use it. Our government is only trying to protect societies most vulnerable from the Scumbags that hide behind our Charters.


Justin
said

Apparently you haven't either Will, but nice try with the spin. I work in the tech. sector, I understand this stuff, I also can do research and read what law professionals write about the extremely complex passages in the bill.

From the hidden 'gag order'(section 23, thanks to lawyer David Fraser for finding that gem) in this bill, to the freedom of the minister to appoint ANYONE to freely intercept and data at any time, without a warrant (via sections 33,34).
Or even section 17 which Vic on high himself didn't even approve of. (Of course that was after he read it).

Well also have the numerous writing of Michael Geist, who has picked this bill apart, and has found many problems.

Before you start spewing that I don't know what it's about, maybe you should yourself find out more info.
But hey, the experts know nothing, right?


mike
said

I have nothing to hide. I use my computer mostly for banking and reading the news, but I am severely opposed to this bill. There is absolutely no reason to give police more powers, which they will abuse, without judicial oversight. This will not reduce crime, this will not help the average person, and will, as the article stated, increase the risk of mistaken identity and heavy-handed police surveillance for people who do not deserve it.


I strongly believe in less state intervention, not more. An individual should be able to choose for himself, and act autonomous, rather than trust a huge government machine. Example, I had my identity frauded as an employee of a bank decided to resell my information. This was a major bank, a government, with more centralisation is just an invitation for more. They shouldn't have a storage of IP addresses linked to individuals.

You'd think such a strong backlash by the general public would wake the Cons up. Hopefully it will. At least I take solace that even with an IP it is hard to identify who used a particular connection, as most homes and their neighbours have multiple IP connections.


Jonathan from Saskatoon
said

AJ/Montreal: You and a lot of others need to read the full story so that you know what you are talking about. C30 only allows police to get identifying information (name, address, IP address,phone number), not content of emails, web pages visited, etc. All activity still needs a warrant to see. Spouting off misinformation like that eliminates any credibility to your comments.


Lola
said

Today I read in the National Post that the Modernization of Investigative Techniques Act, Bill-C74 was first brought to parliament by Liberals in 2005, and it's almost a mirror to the current Bill by Conservatives. And yet, there was no outcry over the Liberal Bill. Hmm. The hysteria on this is suspect.


Dean
said

An innocent man has nothing to hide. Enough said.


Mark in Wpg
said

All the conservative shills regurgitating talking points here need to ask themselves a question: how much are you willing to pay for an ineffective law just begging to be abused? Breaking the law is a Darwinian endeavour. The people who haven't been caught already are very, very good at hiding behind proxies and C-30 will do absolutely nothing to help catch them. A complete reworking of Canada's internet infrastructure to facilitate this pointless bill isn't going to be cheap. Guess who gets to pick up the tab? That's right, it's you. So to summarize: an extra $30-$50 a month for your phone and internet for absolutely no benefit to "the children" or whatever group the Cons are pretending to care about in order to crack down on our rights.


Paul
said

Hmph!? And where are we to find such professional, trustworthy individuals who will have full access to anyone's financial information, personal information, private information, etc... The very same police and political personalities constantly being caught in highly unprofessional behaviour?? How reassuring!! The RCMP?? Wonderful!! What DON"T they screw up ?? So Mr. Harper's gun-wielding western hillbilly buddies are tickled pink at the removal of the long gun registry...so what do they think about everyone under the sun having access to their private info?? Damn hypocrites!!


Sudbury Darren
said

I'll never understand why some say "if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't care" or perhaps "only people doing bad things need to be concerned about this." It really shows a lack of understanding of the problem or perhaps a deficit of depth. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms spells out our Right to be free from random searches. It's a GUARANTEED RIGHT and no government can ram through any law that contravene that right, yet that's exactly what this law does. Would you apologists be so quick to defend the law if it gave the police the power to show up at your door and snoop through your house at their whim? Would you agree with having your purse of wallet searched by any cop walking down the street just because they don't like your face? How about letting the government filter everything you see online, like the Chinese government does? I somehow doubt that. Yet you find nothing wrong with this, now that's really scarey. Under the established rule of law, the police can easily obtain a search warrant if they suspect someone of lawbreaking by presenting their reasons to a judge (or whatever the actual process entails.) It's not a stretch to imagine they sometimes fudge the facts to give them the ability to snoop but at least there's a check against unfettered fishing expeditions. Without that step or something like it, we are on our way to a police state and I for one will never accept that as just the cost of business. This is also exactly the kind of underhanded nonsense that ensures I will never support a conservative of any stripe.


Knower
said

"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. " -Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler


dave in alberta
said

hmmmm..lets see, the ability to locate child porn users, people plotting terrorist acts, internet fraud, theft of illegal down loading of movies, music which is theft and people have a problem..yes it appears some people are worried, i am wondering what illegal act they are worried about being caught for.


Franck Commonsens
said

@Jane.. IP can BE FAKED with great ease! let me give you an example: how will YOU defend yourself if , let's say, someone grab your WIFI internet connection, so use YOUR IP and do something illegal: ITS YOUR IP..so your the one who will have the burden to desperately prove that our innocent to incompetent and narrow minded justice system...for someone who simply use YOUR administrative ID. BTW: When you go to internet cafe, McDonald etc and use a WIFI device, you use someone else IP!! DHU!Beside, criminals DO NOT USE their own IP to commit crimes! DHU!


Howard in Brampton
said

How is it that the Conservative Government (Northern Republicans), that has promised more openness and transparency, and done the exact opposite, now expect Canadians to accept this attack on our privacy? Looks like the old "do as I say, not as I do" thinking here. It's not an accident that they've done this early in their current term as a majority, since most Canadians have a very short memory, especially near an election. The Cons will probably have their collective fingers slapped for this bill, and I would like it to become a Front and Centre issue in the next election campaign. How about making all Conservative caucus meetings public? I mean if the MPs haven't said or proposed anything stupid, immoral, or contrary to the Charter, then they will have nothing to worry about, will they?


James
said

@Will: So when presented with facts you shove your figurative fingers in your ears and shout "NONONONO" until the mean man takes his "logic" and "actual examples of shortcomings in the bill" away? That's the kind of intelligent, well thought out rebuttal we've all come to expect from the Conservative party.


Franck Commonsens
said

Most Canadians are against it, All privacy commissioners are against it, ALL ISP are against it, most MP are against it...if everyone are against it, why is it even allowed to continue AT ALL!!? What have we become? a totalitarian despotic country where if even if everyone are against it, the government do whatever it want? Looks like it!


chris paul
said

So if I hack into a government computer, I can be arrested and sent to jail. Yet it's OK for the government to hack into my computer??? The hypocrisy never ends.


Lane
said

The police should be able to identify individuals from their IP addresses, just as they can identify individuals from their street addresses or telephone numbers or vehicle license plate numbers.


MARG MM
said

Well, since this bill is going to an all party committee, I expect it will be revised. However I do find that some of the comments by some of the "anonymous" people here are actually more scary than the bill. Makes one wonder what THEY are hiding....Hmmmmm, the saying "methinks thou doth protest too much" comes to mind... I think it is time to sit back and wait to see what revisions will be made, and while I think privacy is important, we also must insure that innocent children are protected, and those that commit crimes using the internet are caught in a timely manner. Surely there is a reasonable solution.


J.C.
said

The bill in my opinion, should include specific crimes just as the Kidnapping access without a warrant does, and that is why it should be amended. It should specify as to what crimes the police or CSIS can obtain such information in order to obtain warrants faster and start their investigation quickly. It also needs to ensure police etc., are highly accountable, and not on a fishing expedition. Any equipment the individual has should not be available until a warrant is obtained in my opinion. It is obvious police do need to update their tools to today's standards (internet, & technology) just as they had to do when the telephone came out to combat crime, but it has to be done in a manner that completely balances privacy of the individual, so they cannot just go on a "witch hunt". The ISP providers need to supply such necessary info quickly in order to prevent delay of any such investigation. This is my opinion, but I am not a tech or law expert.


Right as Always
said

So this aproach has been a proven failure everywhere it's been tried, but don't worry - Vic Toews will make it work here. You betcha! Just like the crime bill. Yup. If you're not with me, then obviously you're against, ummm, democracy? No wait, you're for violence against women and , uhh, kids too. That's it. If you don't support me knowing every little detail about you, then you're for violence against women and children. There, do you feel ashamed yet?.


Doug On
said

I think the government probably did not allow for enough protection of actual email content privacy, outside of criminal activity, of course. At the same time the records of tracking and transfer of content should be preserved and available to the proper officials in a timely manner when the need arises. The knee-jerk reaction to this legislation was so over-blown that it leads me to believe most people have no idea how much private information is already available to police. For instance, your vehicle license plate, along with your driver's license, telephone numbers, and government records, etc. make your daily life pretty much an open book anyway. The question is about identifying and retaining internet records. I'm afraid all of the protesting , and the usual rant about the big government conspiracy to invade our private lives is a little too late. It's happened long before this government came into power.


Carl
said

I am undecided about whether I support this bill. However, I find it very strange that it has become such a major partisan issue, considering that the same bill was introduced twice by the Liberals. I suppose some people will jump on any excuse to call the Harper government vile names.


aj from montreal
said

Although I do not agree with most of what the hacker group Anonymous is doing, I do favor them doing more hacks and exposing Vic Toews private life.

Its high time this Harper gov't swallow their pride when the Canadian public disagrees with them if they are going to push forward with this online surveillance bill.

This is invasion of privacy and for the Police and gov't to infiltrate your emails and txt msgs w/o a warrant due to suspicion of pedophilia is a total case of Paranoia!


STARGOD
said

I don't trust ANY government ...they have been getting away with criminal over control for eons, like Fluoride in food hurts child brain development keeping our children dumb. I don't want them in anything more unless the courts are involved. We have a good system with the courts overseeing Government actions...let's keep it that way, NO TO INTERNET WARRANT-LESS SURVEILLANCE.


Will
said

Justin, apparently you haven't bothered to read it at all. Thanks for coming out.


Dave in F'ton
said

Ok, so let's pretend this actually passes - Now Bell, Rogers, and co. have to completely rework network infrastructure in Canada at their own expense (because the government sure as hell won't pay for it), which will either force companies out of business or hike the price of the internet astronomically - and then, all this information is readily available for -anyone- the Justice dept. designates (and Betty loves to gossip, now she has 33 million people she can talk about!) - and THEN all this information is going to be intercepted by a combination of hackers and inept officials forgetting their equipment in public places. Laws of Unintended Consequences, anyone?


Mark Sweeney
said

CBC news has shown that Vic Toews doesn't know the contents of this bill He introduced.With this bill, police don't need to be conducting a specific criminal investigation to request information about you from ISPs.This bill also requires that ISPs pay for all costs associated with monitoring, collecting, and saving all data on customers - so you're going to pay for all those extra costs.It's a very poorly thought out bill that does little for preventing, finding and charging child pornographers at the expense of incredible invasion of privacy.


jimmy
said

"without a warrant." - After these 3 words is where we lose our freedom people. Baird, Clement, McKay, Toews & Harper = COMMUNISTS!!!


Joan in Real World
said

What is the most worrisome to me here, apart for the obvious Big Brother intrusion in our private lives, is the fact that Toews repeatedly tried to convince us that police would need a warrant to get info, when in fact they didn't. And please, spare me the "he didn't know". This government has shown repeatedly throught its MPs that lying is part of their strategy. But continious lying about the content of a bill being introduced? That is serious. And that means that we'll have to monitor these guys carefully if we don't want to end up duped next time.


Jack R
said

My opinion exactly King Commie. Well put. And for those in support of this crazy bill, would you be comfortable with the government next setting up cameras in every room of your house to monitor your every move? Recording your every conversation no matter what you say? Opening your mail and reading it before you receive it? Bringing you in for bi-monthly interviews to go over your position on any topic they choose? Why not? You're supporting the government by saying one type of monitoring is ok, but another isn't? What are you afraid of citizen? What do you have to hide? Come with us. Leave your work you'll be gone awhile.....Most of you have no idea how close you are to a dictatorship on par with Soviet Russia of the past. You're inches away from giving power to a bunch of strangers thinking they know what they're doing. They don't. They only know what's in their heads. Not in your heads. And the thoughts in their heads may not meet up with the thoughts in yours. Remember that while they're hauling you away and accusing you of whatever they want. And you have no rights. You're giving them away by supporting this bill. And dishonouring the Canadians who died at Dieppe, Vimy Ridge, and Caen in the process.Salem Witchcraft trials. MCCarthyism. Stalinism. The Great Leap Forward. It's happened before. It's happening again. With your help.


Connor
said

@Jay ... As I recall, children were not opting, of their own accord, to participate in child pornography. In many circumstances, their own privacy and rights are abused in order to make some bucks. These sick bastards who think this way are usually in their forties ...but in essence of your comment, are over the age of 18. Now ... how would banning children under the age of 18 remedy this problem when it is adults who consciously and knowingly forcing this upon the children. I can just see a child willingly, of their own accord, setting up a webcam so they can show themselves to weirdos. Yah, because your comment makes any sense in regards to the issue.


Dave in F'ton
said

chris paul, I like your thinking! Furthermore, there are far too many distracted and dangerous drivers in Canada. I want legislation ASAP that will require Transportation officials to be posted in every vehicle in the country. If you disagree with me, you are with the dangerous drivers!


Jerry
said

Focus on immigrants from terrorist countries first.It will narrow the gap between Canadian bad guys and foreign ones ...


jerry
said

If any one should be monitored it should be the " liars " that are running this country and making Canada the land of poverty !


Deighv - Sault Ste. Marie
said

Okay, I am no law expert but from what I understand the current system isn't broken, police can still get the info they require WITH a warrant right? A warrant is required so that a second-party can judge whether the warrant is justified or even required in the first place to prevent abuse of police powers. In effect, what this new bills says is that the police want the capability to get this information whether it is justified or not. This is not political nor does it have anything to do with kiddie-porn which the title of the bill implies. The potential for abuse is far greater than any benefits. For example, a police officer could ask for access to his wifes personal online info if he suspects she has been cheating on him, hardly a major crime or justifiable excuse. What ARE the benefits exactly and where does one draw the line? A good carpenter needs very few tools, an incompetant one needs a lot. Maybe the police should learn how to be better carpenters :)


ed peters
said

I don't think it is a vocal minority that is against this bill. I believe it is the majority of sensible thinking Canadians. No one has yet shown the necessity for obtaining this information without a warrant. Give us an example of where this information could not be obtained by going through the warrant process. It seems to me it must be something the USA requested so that we may end-up in this North American free travel treaty. You know how Mr Harper loves his America.


frank
said

no matter how much we complain or applaud this, this is just the next step towards one world government and currency, these are just measures that need be in place before they implement, look also for them to start reduction measures of world population to a more sustainable level, but i know most of you are sheeple and will laugh at these things, que sera,sera...


Goodbye Toews
said

Will . . . "if you took the time to actually READ the bill" something apparently Toews has yet to do but he still brings the legislation forward. These people are actually governing our country with no idea what they're doing or what they're bringing into law!!! Get rid of these mindless control freaks!!!


Steve T
said

I'm afraid to comment.... Some rogue cop could read it and then I'll have a visit from a SWAT team.


Munro - Brampton
said

This is pathetic ! The minister with a big sign saying this is to protect children. Next they will be using the 'they kill babies' line. What I look at and do online is no ones business. If we give them this ablility they will abuse it. This must be stopped dead in it's tracks. Don't be so gullible people. You never give up your rights !


Joan in Real World
said

What's even more scary about this whole episode, is the way in which Minister Toews went out of his way, at first, to try to convince us that this law DIDN'T allow for information to be given without a warrant... Lying to the people about the content of laws the government is intriducing? That is serious! We will have to watch these guys every step of the way because they will try to do this again, everytime they think we won't like their bills.


George
said

I've read the bill & there's no way I want it in my Canada, leave that kind of crap to the communist countries. Parents should be the ones monitoring what their kids access online my tax dollars don't need to go to baby sitting other peoples kids. Those that get scammed need to educate themselves, my tax dollars should be spent to educate the morons. I have nothing to hide & this bill will only target law abiding Canadians, anyone using the internet for illegal purposes will not be using their own IP address they will be using yours. You will be the one that is hassled by the police not the criminal. Then you'll have to spend the money & time to defend yourself. Anyone that supports this bill hasn't read it or their idea of a good government is the one in North Korea. It's a useless bill that targets innocent Canadians, just say no to everything Harper's neo-con reformers introduce & you'll be doing the right thing.


King Commie
said

There's nothing wrong with the government surveying our internet habits. Communist countries to it all the time. So do Islamic dictatorships. Why should we be any different? After all, don't you understand that the government knows what's best for you? (sarcasm)


Moderate Blue
said

"The risks of not implementing this new cybercrime bill are much more serious than the concerns of the small but vocal minority. If you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. I welcome this bill. It's about time."With that logic everyone should submit to DNA tests at birth and why bother with judges/due process at all? Only the guilty get charged, arrested and thrown in jail, right?The police don't need expanded powers to deal with predators. The title of the bill is misdirection at best.


Keep Out
said

Trish . . . "If you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about" is the old adage but the right thing is "If you aren't doing anything illegal, you should not be subject to invasion of your privacy". In short, stay out of my life unless you have justifiable cause to intrude and our system should require warrants with our judges making that decision not snooping authorities on a fishing trip!!!


Chris
said

Our society is supposed to be based on a system of checks and balances. This is why a warrant is currently required to monitor communications of any sort. An impartial judge needs to be convinced that police have a good reason to snoop. This is a good thing and ensures that no one is unfairly targeted. Weahter or not your are doing something illegal, things you post online can be taken out of context and used against you. Look at the man who was arrested for his "blow up the competition" text to his staff... Someone interecepted the message and he was arrested without even being investigated. If this would have been looked at by a judge first, I bet he would have asked the cops to find more evidence against this man before arresting him.


Worried
said

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this opens the door to abuse, especially for a government in the habit of labelling its opposition terrorists and radicals.


AC in NB
said

This bill could be a step in the right direction, provided it would be used for what they say. My life is pretty much an open book anyway, nothing is so personal that I wouldn't want anybody to know. Maybe that's from growing up in a smaller town. What i want to know is why I can't go out and have a few drinks (1-3) with a meal without being labelled as a criminal; you know these new Zero tolerance laws and the 0.05 lets impound his car laws. You people don't want to be labelled as a pedophile or terrorist, and I don't want to be labelled as a drunk driver. Those that don't drink support Zero tollerance, I don't surf the web. I agree with this Bill with strict guidelines.


Joe
said

In the current system you have to be suspected of a crime before your computer is searched. With this new legislation you don't have to be suspicious at all with them being able to take a peak at you. I don't know about you but that seems pretty scary. I would be curious to know a bit more about the other country's who've implemented this.


privacy is a right
said

@kat, trish & will. Post your true name, your credit card information, your home address, your sin number, email and i.p. address. Failure to do so shows you are for child pornography.


chris paul
said

Domestic violence is a big problem. I think the government should put surveillance cameras in everybody's house in order to make sure that domestic violence is not occurring. The government must have the ability to monitor us 24/7. If you don't agree with me, then I guess you support domestic violence.


KJ in Calgary
said

To Trish, Actually you are mistaken... do the basic math... the Conservatives only have a so called majority based on the number of Canadians that voted in the last election. By last count there are more Canadians unless of course you are suggesting that those who didn't vote are not Canadians.... This bill is nothing more than an invasion of peoples rights and freedom and has nothing to do with the small minority of child molestors. By the way are you aware that bullying is a form of violence?


IcedCanuck
said

So I might as well start forwarding all my emails, web browsing history, financial data, and basically all my internet activity to the government ... oh wait don't need to do that anymore with this new bill. This is big brother sticking his nose where it does not belong. If I am behind an encrypted VPN connection will I now be obstructing justice? What about the SSL connections I use all the time?


Jim-Surrey
said

Allowing this Bill is like opening your door to strangers and then being violated. How many woman would like that? This goes too far. Yes criminals need to be caught but there are better methods than invading EVERYONE'S privacy!!!!!!!!


joe canada
said

I have a young daughter and if this will protect her in the future when she does use the internet I say go for it. If you are worried what "THEY" will find out about you, do not put anything out there on the web you don't want known. I don't facebook, tweet or chat in rooms. Probably the most outrageous things I put on the web would be some of my comments on CTV news.


RK in MB
said

This bill is being promoted as the "Protect the Children from Child Pornographers" but there is nothing written in it to say that is what it's for. The wording is too broad and the fact that the Minister can appoint anyone as a designated person makes this bill unacceptable. Why not make a bill that is specific to the reason you need it? Trust is earned and so far, I haven't seen anything that suggests I trust someone with free reign over personal information. And by the way, what does Vic Toews say now that he's finally read it, or has he?


maoworks2
said

I's Just A Info Grab On Everybody !



me
said

Wow. I am amazed at the apathetic country we live in. Sure, if you're not breaking a law, don't worry. Current law or future laws? What severity of law? I live in a community where the garbage men actually go through your garbage. There are 'laws' in our town of what garbage men will not pick up even if the dump accepts them and they aren't hazardous. Stupid law, but a law. What future laws will we have that these internet laws will be monitoring us for? Will 'unpatriotic speech' become illegal if we speak against government? Will we care?


Jay
said

If the internet is apparently such a dangerous place for young people as the government would like us to believe, why don't they just implement a minimum age limit to go online? Driving is dangerous, so you can't get a license until you're 16. Alcohol, gambling, and tobacco are dangerous, which is why we can't use such substances or gamble before the age of 18. Hell, people under 18 aren't even allowed to express their political opinions in the form of a vote. Perhaps the time has come to put a minimum age limit on accessing the internet, since parents are seemingly negligent in their responsibility to protect their children! Why should over 98% of the innocent internet-using population lose rights to privacy, be subject to unnecessary scrutiny, have their private mail read, and be treated like criminals because of a few bad apples? If people under the age of 18 weren't given access to go online in the first place, they obviously wouldn't be victimized (or even targeted) by predators for potential abuse. Wouldn't such an age restriction solution be the simplest most logical solution? It would even stop the online bullying problem among adolescents! Think about it... Most adults today didn't go online before the age of 16 which means it was never a social necessity, so doesn't it seem odd that children much younger are being given unrestricted online access by their parents (and the law)? Just a thought. Technically it makes more sense for children to have their freedoms restricted before adults, since it's usually children who aren't mature enough to understand certain privileges (like the internet) and use them cautiously and responsibly.


Dave in F'ton
said

@Trish: Small but vocal minority? Try 83% of Canadians, unless you want to call the Office of the Privacy Commissioner a liar. This is the government trying to fix something that ISN'T BROKEN. Say it out loud: "I'm going to let the government sidestep judicial review on something". Governments CAN and WILL abuse these kinds of powers, and I don't care if they say "oh no we don't use it for X", because unless it's in writing in the bill, they WILL abuse it.


Snik.
said

One has to wonder how much the so-called supporters are being paid, because no one with even a modicum of intelligence could actually be in favor of this odious bill. Move over China and Iran...here comes Canada. Shame on you, tories.


Lorraine
said

THIS cannot be taken lightly! And I'm a Conservative and do support most of Harper's government's decision.

THIS could open up a PANDORA BOX.

People who say: "I don't have anything to be worried about" are completaly out in the field

Do not think that I don't want pedophiles, fraud experts and terrorists to be caught ? Quite the contrary.

However, when u give this kind of power to a group ie.: policemen, governments etc., ABUSE OF POWER can easily happen.

Got to be very, very VERY carefull with this bill. Got to be extremely detailed, precise otherwise we'll hear about abuses in a very near future.

It's a bit like putting a GPS on someone's car without his authorization and/or knowledge.

This new technology is already being abused let's not be credulous about this ...


DaveC in BC
said

To quote the article-"no one has made a strong case that the current system -- based on voluntary compliance and warrants -- isn't working well" - seriously??? Ask anybody - the system isn't working. Yet we won't allow law enforcement the tools to do the job because we're concerned about our freedom. The criminals are enjoying more freedom then we are, people.


Jon Paulo
said

First they came for the Jewsand I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.Then they came for the communistsand I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.Then they came for the trade unionistsand I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.Then they came for me -and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.The German anti-Nazi activist,Pastor Martin Niemöller


Shelley
said

This bill is dangerous and should not be passed. It seems to me that law enforcement is doing a good job now with internet child predators. We hear on the news about arrests for distribution and possession of child pornography all the time. Personally, I don't want them to have carte blanche. Who knows how the system would be abused if this bill goes through. There is a reason that police require search warrants for information.


MinHemmingford
said

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin


Spare Me
said

Canadians need only look at the routine access of the Long-Gun Registry by law enforcement to grasp how "inappropriate" use of electronic data is readily embraced by law enforcement. (If lefties weren't so foolishly busy trying to justify a measure without any statistical or empirical evidence to support its existence, they'd grasp that the Registry is misused daily, even hourly.)


K. Snook, Alberta
said

I think the police should monitor all comment sections for people who write that, " If you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about." They should get their names and addresses, and then perform unannounced and warantless searches. Because, you know, If you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. Sure.


Jeremy
said

All I need do is point to the arbitrary title of the bill, the "Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act". This bill has more to do with eroding the privacy rights of ordinary Canadians, and will have little to no effect on curbing Child Pornography. I agree, that this issue of child abuse on every level needs much more attention, but don't let so called leaders blind you with loaded bill titles, and unwavering talking points. I honestly hope that some in his own party will choose to take the side's of ordinary Canadians who do not wish to live in a "Big Brother" state.


Mq
said

Sigh @ Trish. If you have nothing to hide? It's your right to hide it. And what if you visit a site that is in direct conflict to the man's agenda. You were just convicted by talking, or reading something someone wrote. You, missy, belong to the minority. The ones that never left the stone age.


Justin
said

"Isn't actually bad if you actually read it?"Really, have YOU actually read it? Sections 17, 23, 33 and 34?That is where the problems lie.Not to mention Mr. Toews asked police forces for examples where C-30 would have helped, how many cases did they get back? 0.Its great people will sell out their privacy online, I'm sure they won't mind a police officer searching their house daily either.Remember, 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.


Trish
said

The risks of not implementing this new cybercrime bill are much more serious than the concerns of the small but vocal minority. If you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. I welcome this bill. It's about time.


Will
said

The shrieks from the usual suspects about how evil the conservatives are over this one simple piece of legislation (which isn't bad, if you took the time to actually READ the bill!) would be amusing if it weren't so annoying and disgusting. Read the thing and then decide for yourself, stop blindly jumping on the bandwagon.


kat
said

No one is taking away the right to internet freedom. But something does need to be done with predators on the internet. So tells who should deal with that?


KJS
said

Just wondering - who is going to monitor the online activities of the surveillers? Considering recent information regarding abuse within Canadian law enforcement departments, there is too much potential for additional abuse with this new development. It may be putting our nation on a very dangerous path.


Intelligent Liberal
said

"Experiences in other jurisdictions such as the United States and Britain show no evidence of improved crime-fighting ability and "overwhelming evidence of increased surveillance," said Micheal Vonn of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association". I wonder how someone from a civil liberties organization has detailed information on how law enforcement in other countries is using technology to battle child pornography? I call BS!


URU
said

Well after all the China bashing about privacy laws looks like our own govt have back track. I guess this time we can say that China is ahead of all the Western countries by implementing what should have been all along to protect society and its citizens. Sometimes too much freedom creatives a violent gang infested society and people become too wild with no limits. Best to have a bit of Capitalist/Communist to balance out the law.


Jarrett
said

I dont trust the gov't to use this information and power responsibly.


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