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Avro Arrow mystery deepens with U.K. discovery

An Avro Arrow CF-105 MkC5 Ejection Seat is currently on sale on eBay for $250,000. (Courtesy: www.jetartaviation.co.uk) An Avro Arrow CF-105 MkC5 Ejection Seat is currently on sale on eBay for $250,000. (Courtesy: www.jetartaviation.co.uk) A full-scale replica of the legendary Avro Arrow towers over Ontario Lieutenant Governor David C. Onley at the Canadian Air & Space Museum in Toronto in this Feb. 20, 2009 photo. (THE CANADIAN PRESS/Nathan Denette) An Avro Arrow CF-105 MkC5 Ejection Seat is currently on sale on eBay for $250,000. (Courtesy: www.jetartaviation.co.uk)
An Avro Arrow CF-105 MkC5 Ejection Seat is currently on sale on eBay for $250,000. (Courtesy: www.jetartaviation.co.uk)

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Date: Sunday Dec. 18, 2011 9:45 PM ET

The discovery of an intact ejection seat from Canada's legendary Avro Arrow is fuelling a half-century-old conspiracy theory that one of the purportedly destroyed jets was smuggled to safety.

The Avro Arrow program was infamously shut down by then-Canadian prime minister John Diefenbaker in 1959. All related materials, from the prototype jets right down to the blueprints, were ordered destroyed.

The ejection seat was discovered in the hands of a private collector in the U.K., and has been tracked back to aviation museum closed during the 1970s.

So, how did the seat from an Arrow make its way to England?

Chris Wilson, the managing director of Jet Art Aviation, a British company that sells aircraft collectibles, suggests his discovery of the seat is the latest piece of evidence to suggest one Arrow escaped from Canada.

The seat, currently on sale on eBay for $250,000, is believed to be the matched pair to a second Arrow seat that Wilson found in 2008 and was sold to the Canadian Air and Space Museum in Toronto. The Arrow had a front pilot seat and a rear navigator seat.

"The chances of finding one in the first place is more or less a miracle, it's a holy grail aircraft item. The chances of finding two, is just ridiculous, really," Wilson said in a telephone conversation from Yorkshire, England.

"That got me thinking that the only way a pair of seats could have come to the U.K. like that in flown condition is if an aircraft came over here."

The ejection seats have been confirmed to CTVNews.ca to have been from the Arrow program by Martin-Baker, the world's leading ejection seat manufacturer. A letter of authenticity by Martin-Baker's head of business development Andrew Martin is available on the Jet Art Aviation website.

Martin-Baker had a licensed facility in Collingwood, Ont. during the 1950s and was building the seats for the program.

The data plate on the seat lists its manufacturing date as Sept. 15, 1958.

"There's no question whatsoever that this seat comes from an Avro Arrow," Wilson said adamantly. "It's 100 per cent an Arrow seat."

He added that probably less than 20 ejection seats in total came off the production line for the Arrow.

Wilson is also confident that the seat he is selling came from an Arrow that saw significant time in the sky.

"This is clearly a used, flown seat," he said. "It saw a 100-plus, maybe as many as a 1,000 flying hours."

Theory number one

Wilson said he had an inkling that an Arrow made its way over to the U.K thanks to the pair of seats, but a chance conversation with a customer gave him a firmer hypothesis.

According to Wilson, the customer (who did not wish to speak on the record to CTV News) was an aviation fan who once lived near the RAF Manston air base near Kent, England.

The customer told Wilson that as a teenager he often watched planes land at the base and he still remembered a strange incident in which a white, high delta wing aircraft with no national markings or registration landing at the base in the early 1960s.

"He's still 100 per cent adamant he saw an Arrow aircraft land," Wilson said.

Wilson said ex-RAF members say that the existence of an Arrow in the U.K. was a local legend within the force during the 1960s.

Theory number two

Robin Sipe, the owner of S and S Turbines, a military and industrial engine repair company in British Columbia, actually owns one of the few engines made for the Avro Arrow.

Sipe is restoring an Orenda Iroquois Series II engine (built for the Arrow) that he came to learn about through a chance encounter with an engineer at a gas turbine conference. The engineer told him he worked on an Iroquois engine while in university in the U.K. during the 1960s. (The parent company of the Avro program, Hawker Siddeley, was British and shipped the engine over.)

It took Sipe a few years but he eventually managed to track down the engine through a complex series of moves -- including buying a Second World War-era plane to use as barter -- and had the engine delivered to British Columbia.

Sipe said Wilson contacted him recently to talk about his engine and the Arrow, but he poured some cold water on Wilson's theory.

"As to an Arrow actually escaping destruction and leaving Canada, I highly doubt such took place. I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but the facts simply do not support the notion that an Arrow was flown to the U.K.," he said.

Sipe noted the Arrow did not have the range to make it to the U.K., let alone Iceland from Ontario.

"How would they get the aircraft there?" he said.

However, he did have a theory on how the seats ended up in the U.K.

"The seats, being highly technical and containing pyrotechnics, would have been one of the first items removed from the Arrow aircraft before scrapping. Likely, a request was made by the British Ministry of Defence to evaluate the seats for potential consideration of using the Martin Baker seats in then upcoming aircraft, such as the TSR2," he said.

While Sipe is quite confident there were no Arrows saved, he does admit to one mystery that still lingers, allowing for the "romantic" possibility.

"(The) first pictures taken of the MK-1 Arrow aircraft sitting on the flight line after program cancellation show all of the Arrows, S/N RL-201 through RL-205. However, later pictures taken do not show aircraft RL-202. No one seems to know what happened to RL-202 which had just received major maintenance due to landing gear collapse experienced several months prior, and was just repaired and returned to flight worthiness immediately before program cancellation," he said.

"I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty that no Arrow aircraft escaped destruction, however it does seem highly unlikely."

Regardless, Sipe said he appreciates any attention on the Arrow because he thinks many Canadians don't understand how advanced their country was in the aerospace sector.

"People don't realize that Canada was by far and away on the cutting edge of aerospace technology. Light years ahead of everyone else. That's the real story, never mind the mystery about why it was cancelled."

More fuel for the fire

It's not just Wilson that has the theory of an Arrow being smuggled away.

Famed Canadian journalist June Callwood, who died in 2007, speculated that one Arrow, equipped with the powerful Iroquois engine, made it to safety. A pilot herself, she wrote an article for Maclean's magazine saying she heard the distinctive sound of an Arrow flying over Toronto, the day after it was announced the jets were to be destroyed.

"‘The Arrow!' I thought in amazement. Nothing else could make such a racket. Someone has flown an Arrow to safety." she wrote in the 1997 article, recalling her youth.

Air Marshall Wilfred Curtis, the First World War ace who headed the Arrow program only helped fuel rumours and theories that one of interceptors was saved. In a 1968 interview with the Toronto Star, he refused to answer when asked if an Arrow was smuggled away.

Like "The X-Files" tells us, the truth is out there. The U.K's Official Secrets releases classified information in 30-, 50- and 100-year intervals. It will be 50 years from the alleged arrival of a Arrow into the hands of the RAF very soon.

The ejection seat remains on sale on eBay. Wilson said he already received a $40,000 bid but he said the seat is a priceless historical artifact and hopes he can do better.

josh.visser@bellmedia.ca

 

Comments are now closed for this story

MARK SMYTH
said
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Four major points. My uncle worked on the Arrow in Malton. He and almost all the Arrow engineers were offered jobs to go and work for NASA in Houston on cancellation of the Arrow . The Arrow was the very first computer controlled plane in the world. Was this technology lent by the USA for microprocessors on the Arrow? It was the very first jet to fly at 100,000 feet altitude. That was about 25,000 feet higher than the Americans could fly in the 1950's. The Orenda engines were so strong they tore the mountings from the floor of the test bed in Malton. Those are true facts. Now you know how Orenda Drive in Malton got it's name. See the Arrow movie about how the coke bottle shape of the body was first developed for high speed jet fighters by the Avro Arrow engineers. Dan Aykroyd was a great boss in the movie. Great job.


Stephen B
said
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You folks should check the history books. The liberals were going to cancell the Arrow due to its high cost, but voted to wait until after the next election which they lost to John Dief. Had they not lost they would have canned the Arrow. Check the cabinet docs from that time period.


Greg
said
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Is all Canada has these days to be proud of these days is the rootin, tootin, polutan oil sands. From your conservative government, again.


Ned Flanders
said
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Scrapping the arrow is typical of conservative short sighted thinking, not much different than Harper ramming through crime bills that have proven to be disastrous failures. You can always count on a conservative to scrape a good thing & impose a failure, thanks Harper for proving me right.


Steve H
said
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Destroying the Avro put Canada back many years, we could have been a major player, typical thinking from the right wing tin foil hat wing nuts. Not any worst than the destruction Harper is currently doing to Canada.


Malder
said
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They tested the arrow in a US wind tunnel because nobody else had once fast enough. The Us must have dropped a load when they found out how fast it could go. Then, their buddies, the PC's pulled the plug, thus spelling out our dependence on the US for any kind of military air power. Too late to cry about it now, but imagination can go a long way if we think about what could have been if the Arrow hadn't been scrapped. Yes, bad accounting, engineering problems and other factors led to it's demise, but I for one, feel the biggest nail in it's coffin was it's threat to US supremacy.


Rick in Calgary
said
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A great Conservative leader, but wait when compaired to Harper and Mulroney, just doesn't take mush to be the best, just waste our money and put Canada into debt. No worries the next Liberal goverment will get us out of debt again, and the Conservatives can slam them as usual for cleaning up another Conservative mess.


BinBarrie
said
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Tim McKinnon said "equipped with the French built Orenda Iroquois" The Iroquois engines were Canadian developed and built in Toronto/Malton not France


Bob C
said
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The Arrow was a very well designed airplane but it was too expensive , had a limited ramge and no foreign sales could be confirmed. The continued development was curtailed by the government of the day but it was the management of Avro who gave the order to scrap the aircraft that had been built. Fortunatly many of the people instrumental in the developement of the Arrow moved on to great careers with NASA. That move has created many more benefits for mankind than having built maybe 20-50 Arrows.


Raymond
said
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Arrow 202, after being repaired from the landing gear accident, was being fitted with a Hughes fire conrol system when the axe fell. It did not escape the blowtorch. Coincidentally, 202 also recordeded the fastest flight of the program, reaching 1.98mach on November 11, 1958..unfortunately, the landing gear failure occurred following that very same flight.


Scully
said
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The Avro Arrow is alive, well and still teaching at Area 51.


Walter West
said
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Who on finding something at an auto parts manufacturing plant assumes the part came from an auto? It is the same deal with aircraft parts. Most likely it was either intended to go into an Avro Arrow or it was intended to be used in parts testing.


In The East
said
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@TimMcKinnon Sorry, the Oreda engine was not French. It to was Canadian, built by a subsidiary of AVRO Canada. The Pratt & Whitney Arrow went well over mach 1 and the Oreda equipped Arrow was to be a mach 2 Aircraft. There was plan in place to design a build a mach 3 aircraft, but those were never more than initial design discussions...


Patrick
said
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The cancellation of the project is just another great example of poor political decision making by the conservatives. Now they want to buy the F35 (a single engine jet) that cannot land in the majority of our northern runways because the engine sucks.

anon4
said
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I recall that there was an Avro engine that "turned up" in a warehouse in England a while back as well. Could there be much more to the story??


John Calvesbert
said
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The lower picture on page 143 of a book titled "Arrow", clearly shows all five of the A/C 201 thru 205 awaiting disassembly. The pic is entitled, "Death Row".It seems unlikey that '202' made it to safety.If it had, why is a pair of ejection seats the only items left. Where did the rest of it go ?


Doug ^^^ BC
said
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What a lot of people are missing in this,is the per unit cost of each plane.The Arrow was not a lot different than todays F-35 when it comes to the economics of the program.In fact,the same principle applies to almost anything we design and build in Canada.If the final product cannot be sold in world markets,then what we have made is unaffordable even here.Making say, a couple of hundred planes for ourselves was never practical.The entire project only became pratical and affordable if other nations bought them too.Per plane costs are highly reduced, and those reductions in costs are directly proportionall to the numbers of planes sold. The same is true of the F-35.If they can't sell a whole bunch of them,the per plane cost will be prohibitive. For me,the real question is who got in the way of sales when these planes were being built,and why did they get in the way? Telling Canadians that there are no Avro Arrows around any more is like telling a child there is no Santa Clause.But honestly people,on the politics of some of the posts,ask yourself this.If the Conservatives of the past did nothing for our defense,does that excuse the Liberals of doing that in modern times? If all the politcal partisans are right,it seems to me that there has been a major role reversal in our politics. I can say this, honestly.If the Liberals of today were anywhere near the Liberals who built the Avro Arrow,I would likely not be a Conservative now. Neither of our national parties of today bear any resemblance to their 1960's predacessors.Not even close.


Robert Sapienza, Montreal
said
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Sounds to me like this guy in the UK is trying to scam some gullible conspiracy buffs! Hope Marc-Andre's well-researched facts make it across the pond to ward off any suckers...


Tim McKinnon
said
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For any and all Avro arrow enthusiasts The Original Arrow had a Pratt and Whitney built engine that in 1955 allowed this technological marvel to travel just over mach 1 (the speed of sound) and a weapons system in the works. Phase two of the Arrow The 205 was to be equipped with the French built Orenda Iroquois which would have pushed the fully armed Arrow to just over mach 3, the fastest plane of it's day and shortly there after the SR-71 Blackbird took that title also built in the late '50's. The initial test of the Orenda had to be stopped before the engine tore itself loose from it floor anchors. The Arrow was built as a long range interceptor and not as a fighter jet, it was however to have been fully armed and capable of combat. As for John G. Diefenbaker, he should have stayed a Saskatchewan gopher farmer as he took a Canada, now poised as a technological super power off the map, Thanks John. The 14,000 laid off employees, the vast majority sought employment at an upstart company know as NASA, go figure, and go Canada!


Steve in Ottawa
said
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David From Edmonton, what do you mean "The destruction of Canada's aerospace industry"? Haven't you ever heard of Bombardier? It's the third biggest civilian aircraft builder in the world. Lets check the facts, dude.


A Concerned Canadian
said
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The F-35 is NOT the Avro Arrow, never was, never will be. The Arrow was cancelled and destroyed on the order of a very naive prime minister. Cancelling the program was bad enough, to order the Arrow's destruction was a bad idea. It would have been better to just keep the planes for later use or sell them at a high price. The aerospace industry that we had in the 50s is gone permanently, never to return. We have priorities here in Canada, and top-quality aerospace is not one of them. Health care, infrastructure, and the welfare state are our top priorities.


The Proud Albertan
said
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IF, and it's a big "if, one of the Arrows got away, there was one guy hanging around Avro in those days that had the interest, the contacts, the resources, the brains, the engineering background to appreciate what the Arrow really truly was, and had the audacity to have engineered it's disappearance - Howard Hughes. The Arrow was to have had a Hughes fire control system in it so it's certain that he would have known about it and been involved on some level, and he was frequently at Malton flying the Avro Jetliner which he badly wanted for TWA. If an Arrow got away the Hughes was behind it and it would have gone into the desert in California or Nevada, not England. Diefenbaker should have been publicly flogged for having cancelled that program.


dave in hfx
said
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For killing the Avro Arrow and Canada's chance at becoming a world leader in aviation technology John Diefenbaker should be branded a traitor to his country and his grave be stripped of any honours given to it. His place in the history of this country should reflect the monstrous stupidity of his actions.


Mark W..a proud Canadian
said
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The Avro is dead. I do believe we could have achieve greatness. But that is over. The question is what does the future hold? We are trying to acquire the 5th generation fighter F-35. The CIA has lost a drone that contains some of the same technology that is used in the F-35. The Iranians with the help of the Russian, Chinese and the North Koreans will get a boost from the stealth technology from it. They will learn to built stealth fighters, and they will learn to shoot down our stealth fighters. We need to step away from the US and build a new Canadian solution.


In The East
said
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@Gord in Ottawa . Sorry, Velvet Glove was not a weapons system for the Arrow. As a matter of fact, Velvet Glove was canceled a full year before the first Arrow flew.


alton
said
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The Reynolds Museum houses a replica.


Erik Miitel
said
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Keep dreaming... Marc-Andre Valiquette had it right, the five complete planes only saw 70 hours of flight time, and nothing overseas. Technically, it was a great aircraft, no question, but quit with the conspiracy theories about Dief already. The entire program and the cost of the aircraft was over budget. The government originally wanted 200 planes. When the final costs came in, we couldn't even afford HALF of that. The cost was one of the biggest factors and scared away any potential buyers. Also, the program was heavily mismanaged. Even to this day, no one can explain why they only saw 70 hrs of test flight. Other contemporary planes of the time saw hundreds if not thousands of hours before production. There could have still been flaws in the design. It still needed full testing. A lot of fault lies with Avro itself. And when the decision came to axe the program, they couldn't just leave them lying around either. Remember the Cold War? That was advanced cutting, if not bleeding edge technology. Soviet spies were all over the place. The destruction was the right choice, given the political/military climate of the time. Enough conspiracy theories. Let it rest.


mining guy Jim
said
0 0

Let's do it again. Really. Let's do it again and enough whining about the x-35 or 24 or whatever. Let's not lose this generation of aerospace engineers to the 'states like we did the last batch. No government hack is going to step up to the plate. Let's make Canada a place people come to to buy their Military aircraft.


M in YOW
said
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For those that are debating the conservatives vs liberals and who did what bad things, lets not forget the liberal cancellation of the SAR/Shipborne helicopter program. The cancellation itself cost almost as much as if the program had been completed. Oh, and by the way we are still paying the price as we don't even have the shipborne version yet and paying a premium to keep the mighty Sea King flying.


David from Edmonton
said
0 0

The destruction of Canada's aerospace industry by Diefenbaker caused a real brain drain of our best engineers. Some of them went to the U.S. and helped to put men on the moon while others worked on the Concord jetliner.


ArcticGuy
said
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Tim Knowles:I know the plane you're speaking of in Wetaskiwin. It is a replica. But it is a highly accurate and detailed replica.


peter in mb
said
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@ Tim Knowles…. the Avro Arrow you are talking about is a plywood model.But there is roomers and eye witnesses who saw a Avro Arrow with the Iroquois engines that broke the worlds speed record of that day take off and fly south, it most likely landed in area 51. the U.S.A. was behind the destruction of the Avro Arrow because it was better then any fighter jet they had and they did not want the U.S.S.R. Spys of the day to get their hands on this technology. Lets not forget This all happened during the cold war, politics and national security played a major role in the Avro Arrow destruction. And lastly all the people, designers and engenders who worked on the Avro Arrow project all got letters offering them high paying jobs at NASA for the space program.


Paul Christie
said
0 0

For virtually my whole life, and I'm now old, I've been told of the 'tragedy' of the Avro Arrow. I have come to believe that for most of the last fifty years, it has become a platform to raise the specter the Conservative bogeyman. Soon, someone will equate the Arrow with an emerging Harper policy.

Time to get a new soapbox.


Joe F
said
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Im no where near the age of having seen these planes in action, but every time I hear about this program, every time I read another article it pisses me off to no end. What Canada pissed away for no reason, the tech, the jobs, the development of the Avro. It disgusts me how some governments can be so easily coerced and have utterly no long term vision. I do not discount the current government either. Annoyingly pathetic.


bill
said
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the one in Wetaskiwin was built for a CBC series about the Arrow - it was never flown. The ones that were shown to be flying were in fact small scale models without a pilot


Cicero
said
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The Liberal government of St. Laurent with the interfering CD Howe are the true source of the demise of the Arrow, as they forced AV Roe to abandon the Jetliner, which if allowed to go to full production would have given Canada a decade-long head start in the field of passenger travel.(it's only competitor, the Comet, started falling from the sky in the early 50's because of a design flaw which caused it to tear apart at high altitudes.) The St. Laurent government was preparing to abandon the AVRO program but withheld any announcement until after the 1957 election, which it unexpectedly lost. Governments sticking its nose into private enterprise was the real problem here. A financially stable AVRO, flush with cash from Jetliner sales, would have had the means to adjust and survive. The Arrow program bankrupted AVRO, and the fault lies with CD Howe and a doddering Louis St. Laurent , who was asleep at the wheel.


robertjb
said
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Dief Sold out one "national dream," Mulroney did his part , and now Harper is out to finish the job. Conservatives are our party of national destruction.


Tim Knowles
said
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If the Avro Arrow were all completely destroyed, then could someone tell me why I photographed one at the Reynold's Air Museum in Wetaskiwin, Alberta in, I believe, 2007 ?


snafu169
said
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RE Will:1. it never had the chance to get buyers and what about the economics of the 14000 tax paying people laid off?2. It did have a weapons system under development in the form of a weapons pack that was concealed in the fuselage... another cutting edge idea.3. The Americans brain washed or twisted JD's arm into thinking Missles was the way to go to protect their own fighter programs.4. Again I would think related to political interference by US and britain.Canada took on a great challenge, but I believe was Politically immature and not able to handle the pressure that came with it.


Gord in Ottawa
said
0 0

@Will. There was in fact a weapons system developed for the Arrow. It was done by Westinghouse Canada in a plant in Hamilton and incluided a radar, fire control system and a missile (Velvet Glove). Presumably that technology was destroyed as well. The same short-sightedness was evident in the Navy's hydrofoil project, HMCS Bras D'Or, which was scrapped in the early 1970s. Not only was it the fastest ocean going ship up to that time, but it too had a weapons system developed for it, including a towed sonar (also developed by Westinghouse Canada).


stretch
said
0 0

Diefenbaker, a conservative, cuts a liberal program that was destined to do good for the future of Canada and destroys every shred of good from it. Fast forward to 2011...Harper cuts a liberal program (gun control) that was destined to do good for the future of Canada (lower gun crime rates) and destroys every shred of good from it. By all accounts Dief was as manical, bullying and controlling as Harper. Haven't we learned anything 50 years ago? Obviously not.


Hamilton
said
0 0

A conservative government killed one of the most advanced aircraft of its time and with it Canada's aerospace industry, at great cost to the country. Now a conservative government insists, that Canadians shell out mega billions in taxpayers dollars to buy the Flying Edsel (F35 or whaever its called). How ironic. How sad. How conservative.


Zane
said
0 0

The reason that the Arrow was cancelled is that it was the best interceptor, bar none, and the USA decided that if they couldn't have it, no one would. It was decided that the technology was far advanced of the U.S. and deemed a threat. Political pressure and manipulation from Ike and his ilk and lots of cash put in the right pockets guaranteed the demise and erasure of every thing connected to the Arrow.


Scott in BC
said
0 0

@Will... Yes, in their typical short sightedness, the Conservatives cancelled the project for short term cost concerns. What most people involved at the time knew, was that the cancellation doomed an entire industry. Dief was just too pig headed to see the big picture.


rikrak
said
0 0

Mt error in my last comment. Not the H.S.T (HEAVILY SCREWED TAX) It was the G.S.T.(Getting Screwed Tax).Mulroney should be disgraced.


Bonnie
said
0 0

That's what you get with the mean spirited Conservatives.Even if something is proven to work ie the phot radar in place in Ontario and the gun registry.The can't think of anything on their own that is good for Canadians so they (like little kids) destroy evidence that anybody else had some brains.The US thanked us again because all our men and women went to work for the US space centre.


Scott
said
0 0

I wish there was a billionaire enthusiast, that would gather everything, and get an Arrow flying with the Iroquious engine. We could set all myths to rest about her potential, and hopefully prove she was the best ever, and also have a big part of our heritage again intact. As for people blaming the current Conservatives, take note, Diefenbaker was at fault definitely, not our current govt., so stop trying to link the two and make political brownie points. The current gov't is contributing heavily to regenerate our aerospace industry and creat jobs here, unfortunately Avro is no longer here to have a truly Canadian produced product. Ok, back to the dream of having the plane fly again!


Steven in Ottawa
said
0 0

If this seat is genuine, I think it should make its way back to Canada for the Canadian Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa, or to the Canada Air and Space Museum in Toronto (Downsview).


Mark - Calgary
said
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Kind of funny how some people are comparing the Diefenbaker Conservatives with today's Conservative government. Instead of talking about the Arrow itself, it seems that lefties want to blame today's Conservative for the mistake made years ago. Can I blame Bob Rae then for the Upholder and EH-101 Liberal fiascoes then?


rikrak
said
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Scrapping of the Avro Arrow was by far the biggest blunder that the conservatives have made. Barring free trade and the Hst.And the list will get bigger. When will us Canadians ever smarten up!!!


pegger
said
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As the article suggests, Diefenbaker screwed the aerospace program in this country by destroying the best aircraft in the skies at the time. There was nothing as good on anyone's drawing boards.There was never a plausible reason given for this malicious destruction, including all the design details. WasDief paid off by the American military industrial complex? We'll likely never know.Fast forward to today and harpo is repeating the conservative sell-off of Canada. Destroying the Wheat Board is something the U.S. has tried to do for decades, and couldn't legally, so harpo is trying to do it for them, illegally. As the farmers in Australia who did the same thing warned us, it's likely to be one of the biggest mistakes we make if allowed to happen. But harpo won't let the farmers vote as the law demands, because their support for the Wheat Board doesn't fit in with his spin that farmers want freedom.


GUTSHOT!! in Thunder Bay
said
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"Remember when" is the lowest form of conversation. Dwelling on what may have been is foolish and a waste of effort. Its gone. It never was. Move on.


Remarkable
said
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I do believe that a plane or significant parts of the plane were spared being destroyed. It is my belief that the British convinced the then Conservative government to sell them the technology so that they can study it and continue with the advancement of that technology that was so far ahead of its time and with Diefenbaker (who didn't get along with the Americans) had no problem in letting them take it. The US ended up with some of the best engineers we had in this country and added them to their space program.


Goldens
said
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The greatest blunder in the history of Canada!


Ed in Alberta
said
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The really silly part of the BOMARK program was that Canada would not allow the nuclear warheads for which the missile was designed, into the country! Talk about a government lining the pockets of the US military industry without actually becoming a possible threat to them!!!......Oh right... the taxpayer was the one who paid (and paid) for it all. And of course the loss of jobs.....Does that remind anyone of the current F35 program?


mike
said
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You can take it out on the government of the day but remember just recent facts that the Liberal under Chretien sent our troops to afganistan with bright coloured green uniforms, just another blunder for the government of the day.History always proves that the governments of the day will never learn from mistakes made.


RG
said
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We have always had the engineers and forward thinking Canadians necessary to make this country great.The Canada Arm and the Avro Arrow prove this.What we haven't had are politicians that can't think past their own personal well being and Diefenbaker was a prime example.It's such a shame Canadians don't know how to elect politicians that will actually put the country they serveahead of all else including the American interests.


Bob in Chatham
said
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The Conservatives killed Canada's aerospace program (and my future in this field) when they killed the Arrow. Instead of destroying everything they could at least have sold their expertise to the Brits. Opting for the Bomark plan was an even bigger fiasco. They never did work !


Steve
said
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Our government is doing nothing for this piece of Canadian history, but it's currently putting the brakes on the Norwegians from acquiring a rusted to nothing ship wreck in the arctic. Priorities???


Will
said
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There will always be someone out there who thinks in their conspiracy theory dominiated world that an arrow is still in hiding. As tinfoil hat fantasies go, it's relatively harmless. As for the usual drivel, the project was canceled for some extremely good reasons: 1. economics- too expensive and no buyers; 2) the airframe had NO weapons system to carry. A fighter without a weapons system is useless. 3) at the time, it was thought that the threat was ballistic missiles not manned bombers. 4) even the liberals wanted it to go away. Black Friday was the creation of Crawford Gordon who thought he could force the government to change the decision. The scrapping decision was made by the RCAF Chief of the Air Staff with input from the RCMP Se3curity Service due to worries about the technology being stolen by the Soviets. A huge pity but understandable.


JPC
said
0 0

Just to clarify it was BOMARC missiles and used F-101 Voodoos. Both were proven to be inferior to the Arrow. The worst part about the Avro Arrow story is the almost complete destruction of the Canadian aerospace industry afterwards. We were near the top of the world in terms of aerospace engineering and it was imploded from inside our own coutry. It took decades for our aerspace industry to recover. Can you imagine where we could have been had "recovery" not been required and we continued at the pace we were at in the 1950s!


Mimi2005
said
0 0

Ok, imagine. A legend jet in pieces shipped to the U.K. piece by piece in secrecy to save it. I really hope it's true. Then eventually eveyone who is lucky enough to have a piece of gets together in an undisclosed location to the rest of the world and puts this thing together. LIKE, WOW! Even if it's not true (I really hope it is though) It would be the story of generations! If it's not true, what an awesome movie potentional!


Marc-Andre Valiquette - Laval QC
said
0 0

Since the destruction of the Arrow, many interesting theories have come-up in regards to the Arrow. During the Spring of 1959, apart from the five Arrows being destroyed outside the factory, 32 more on the assembly line in different stages of completion were also being broken apart. This is not counting the thousands of parts that were being scrapped that had already been built for the program. This is why, once in a while, Arrow parts resurface. In regards to the C5 ejection seat, it was the Canadian version of the already existing Martin Baker Mk.5 version that was used in many fighters of the day. It was not a unique design for the Arrow, only slightly modified. They were assemble at Collingwood at the Canadian Martin Baker plant. Taking into account that only 5 Arrows flew a total of about 70 hours in 11 months of flight testing, we are far away from the hundreds or thousands of hours mentioned by the seller! There could be a chance that seat # 11 could have been fitted to Arrow 206 because at the time of cancellation, this specific aircraft had a complete cockpit minus the throttle box (if seats #1 to 10 were fitted in the previous five Arrows). The RCAF could have sold back any of the surplus seats to MB because they had no use for it as it was not in service with any other of their fighters. For seat # 14 now in the hands of the Canadian Air & Space Museum, previous manager confirmed to me three years ago that it was acquired for less than 20,000$. Marc-Andre Valiquette, author Destruction of a Dream, the tragedy of Avro Canada and the CF-105.


bill
said
0 0

it's too late to know for sure now but if canada was cutting edge then just think where we might have been today.. dief should be poshumously charged with treason


wstrncehnehdeh in SK
said
0 0

It would be wonderful for Canada to once again be on the cutting edge of aviation. Like the article says I don't think we understand how advanced Canada's Avro Arrow was and this leads me to ask the question. What would be the motivation for destroying something so advanced? A true patriot would want their country not only have but build the most advanced military fighter. The order to destroy would come from someone who is not a patriot and who perhaps had other loyalties.


George Thompson
said
0 0

I'm curious. What might people be proud of when thinking about present-day Canadian accomplishments that would be on a par with the Avro Arrow?


Canadian Bob
said
0 0

Remind me again... Diefenbaker was a Conservative right? Need I say more?


Thomas
said
0 0

The Arrow program was a success, politics and low browed thinking killed the program, nothing more or nothing less, Canada should be a leader in aircraft aerodynamics, instead we don't even show up on the radar screen. The politicians of the day should be dishonoured and never mentioned in Canada's history again.


Steve in Manotick
said
0 0

Just another example of how a short minded Conservative Government ruined a potentially prosporous enterprise. If Diefenbaker would have looked forward we would not need foreign built aircraft like the F35. Come to think of it, wasn't Boeing aircraft orginally in western Canada but due to the politics of the conservative government at the time moved to Whashington state


Dave in Bond Head
said
0 0

A little fantasy and romanticism to think that there's an Arrow out there somewhere... I think it would be impossible to hide something that big for so long.

But still, it's kind of nice to dream about...


Marc Dignard
said
0 0

I truly hope some historian will take up the task of finding out why the Arrrow program was cancelled and if it did prove to be senseless Diefenbaker should get a black mark for it. What a loss to our country . And oh, now we have to buy new planes ... excuse me we were the ones at the forefront then.


Ted from Toronto
said
0 0

Collingwood, ON had a Martin-Baker facility? Very interesting indeed.


Cfarlie Schwartz
said
0 0

As an RCAF vet from the early "60's I remember a lot of talk about the Arrow that escaped the idiot Diefenbaker's scrap heap. The sad part was that Britain offered to purchase and take over the whole Arrow program but the yanks were terrified about another country having such an advanced aircraft and thus bought off Dief with a bunch of crappy Bomarc Missles & Sabre Jet fighters. We could have refined the Arrow & sold her world wide but Dief killed her, what a sad day that was!


Edmund Anstey
said
0 0

The Canadian Government should bid on every part of the avro arrow and try to collect whatever is available.


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