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Canadian crime statistics Canadian Justice Minister Rob Nicholson holds a news conference after the federal Conservative government introduced legislation aimed at cracking down on violent youth crime in Ottawa, Monday Nov. 19, 2007. (Fred Chartrand / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

Tory bill proposes violent youth be tried as adults

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Date: Mon. Nov. 19 2007 10:27 PM ET

If the Conservative government has its way, more young offenders would be tried as adults and people would be charged with identity theft before even committing a crime.

Those are just two of the implications in a series of new laws introduced today by the federal Tories.

The proposed legislation tackles a slew of hot-button issues including drugs, gun crime, identity theft and young offenders.

The government introduced their Crime Bill by starting off with proposed changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

These are the key proponents of their proposal:

  • Tougher sentences
  • Allowing for pre-trial detention
  • Allow courts to consider deterrence and denunciation as objectives of youth sentences

Justice Minister Rob Nicholson said young offenders need to be held accountable when they commit violent crimes.

"These amendments to the Youth Criminal Justice Act are intended to help hold young lawbreakers accountable to their victims and their community, and instill within them a sense of responsibility for their delinquent or criminal behaviour,'' he said.

The minister also said the new legislation would be tougher on bail conditions for repeat offenders or youth accused of committing violent crimes.

Nicholson also said there will be a more comprehensive review of the Youth Criminal Justice Act next year.

Critics were hesitant to applaud the move.

Yvon Godin, the NDP whip, called the move "smoke and mirrors" on CTV's Mike Duffy Live.

"If a youth is dangerous to the people, the judge already has that power. This bill won't change anything," he told the show's host Mike Duffy Monday.

However, Jay Hill, the Conservative Party whip, said a recent commission in Nova Scotia found that law officials feel like they do not have enough power when it comes to young offenders.

"In the opinion of the inquiry, judges do not have sufficient power to ensure proper detention of a violent youth if he does pose a threat to others," he told Duffy.

Liberal whip Karen Redman said the party agrees the Act needs to be re-examined but that they would want to study the Conservative proposal further.

"We certainly do agree that repeat violent offenders need to be looked at," she said.

"A lot of these recommendations seem to be consistent with the report that came out of Nova Scotia," she continued. "We've said all along we're very supportive of that but we do want to make sure that the principles of the Youth Criminal Justice bill are not undermined."

The most controversial piece of legislation will be the one that deals with identity theft.

As it stands now, the criminal code says it is illegal to use someone else's identity to commit a crime. But the Tories want to change the law so that it makes mere possession of someone else's identity a crime.

Joe Comartin, the NDP justice critic, said the government needs to make it illegal to conspire to commit a crime if they want their identity theft legislation hold up in court.

"We know that we have to do more to both prevent and prosecute identity theft,'' he told the Canadian Press.

"But a blanket prohibition in terms of possession is really, really hard to see that it would survive.''

Critics also slammed a new law that would see minimum sentences imposed on people caught possessing or trafficking drugs. They said it would have little impact on the crime rate and would instead result in the overcrowding of prisons.

Comments are now closed for this story

sean
said

I am so sick of hearing people say how harsher penalties don't deter crime, and we have to concentrate on the root of the problem. WHO CARES? I don't want violent criminals on the street because they deserve to be locked up, whether that's a deterrent or not. And YES more needs to be done as a preventative measure, but the laws are there to penalize people who break it. Social policy can deal with prevenative measures.


John Smith
said

As far as dealing with the causes of criminal activity, you need to deal with the thinking and behaviour of the criminal.

A person's thinking and behaviour is primarily a reflection of how they have been treated.

If parents do a poor job in raising their children so that they have good thinking and good behaviour, then other innocent people will suffer the consequences of their children's poor behaviour.

If these bad young people know they can get away with being destructive just to have some fun, then they will.

If these bad young people know they will suffer consequences for their actions, then they will think twice.

Steve
said

With the aid of DNA testing, bring back the death penalty for newly convicted murderers and anyone who has failed an appeal with so much time that they'll never get out of jail. That will deter future crimes and reduce the current prison population and save some of the money that we, the law obiding citizens have to pay to feed and shelter these rejects of society.


John Smith
said

Clarification is needed here. Currently the police are not able to charge someone with a crime when they are in the business of stealing people's identities.

A lot of criminals are in the business of stealing people's indentification, only to sell it to others for money.

Currently, you can only be charged with a crime if you use stealing identification to carry out a fraud.

In other words, an innocent person has to suffer loss before people, who are in the business of stealing identifications, can suffer any consequences.

Why wait for that when you can prevent an innocent person from suffering harm?

student
said

Alot of people blame the parents but parents aren't the only cause. Sometime parents work hard to create a positive and loving atmosphere and their children still are out of control because of the people who they hang out with. At a certain age, generally in teenagers, children tend to no longer listen to their parents and look to their peers for correct behaviour. Those who don't have parents also have trouble finding appropriate role models.


Andrew
said

I am a 17 year old from Winnipeg. I know from the people around me at school that good parents equate to good children. I have never been in trouble with the law, and neither have my parents. No drugs, alcohol, anything illegal. The problem is both the children and the adults - until the adults crack down, (curfews, rules from a YOUNG age) nothing will change. Throw them in jail and treat them at the same time, but scare the parents into cleaning up their act as well - for example, dont throw the parents in jail, but tarnish their record. Will they let their kids run around and steal my car if the parents will have a permenant criminal record afterwards? Let it disappear after about 10 years, though. I really think that would work. But still, please do us ALL a favour and throw my delinquent peers in jail. Some need it.


Gisele
said

Gayle --Awesome comments, I appreciate your information! My brother is a foster parent & he has dealt with constant frustration from the government ( & he's one of the "good" ones !) Another issue--from my viewpoint as a low-income working single mom ...parents are not supported at all by our society --many jobs ( most the crappiest paying ones!) Demand that parents be available 24-7 & if they find adequate childcare -too bad!! Most do not have benefits, so for example, have to take on a 2nd or 3rd job if they or the kids require dental care, or even just for damn school fees --which go up every year! Most employers act as though your a "slacker" if you don't want to work 50 hours a week or won't be available at the drop of a hat!! Where does this leave the kids?? A reliable schedule would mean parents could plan things like childcare sharing or "book" family time etc ..but these selfish employers won't allow it!! I am one of the fortunate ones ... I have found a "childfriendly" employer -- & i give thanks for that daily --because I have seen firsthand how my peers ( lower income single parents) struggle & I know i'm truly blessed!! & i live in an affordable small city ...how my city peers survive --boggles my mind!! As a mom, my capacity to earn $ has been cut at least by 1/2, as a single parent I'm treated like a leper by most married wives & yet when kids get in trouble my "kind" are the first to take the heat!! The tories do nothing to prevent crime --but they want more power to lock people up & for longer , they reduce drug treatment programs & want to lock up those people as well....truly they are the gestapo in sheeps clothing!!


David from Vancouver
said

Its somewhat unfair to tax "young people" (GST and excise taxes), punish them as adults, yet deny them the right to participate democratically. It seems today as though the third section of the Charter is no longer important...


Garry
said

Ry: You are correct in your statement about the cost. It currently costs about $30,000 per year to keep one prisoner behind bars. However, as taxed as we are, I would be willing to spend the extra monies required.


18 year old from Alberta
said

Part of the problem is also the parents having no control over their kids. When the kids are running ramped around town vandalizing and doing drugs and and their parents don't care, what do you expect to happen. Parents need to smarten up and teens that do the damage should have to clean it up, pay for it or they should be severely punished with fines.



Mike
said

It's high time we treat criminals as criminals and not kids. if we can incarcerate them and keep them off our streets so much the better. The message is clear - do the crime do the time not do the crime and go to club fed.


JenX
said

Thanks Frederick Stom for suggesting people take a look at information that's already out there before making any decisions. Gut reactions are pretty understandable but should not be the basis for policy recommendations and certainly not legislation. Clearly all of you folks have internet access. Do a 10 or 15 minute search on some likely key words [such as youth justice comparative research]. There is a ton of outcomes research out there; spend some time reading through it! A random selection:
http://198.103.98.138/text/pblct/forum/e112/e112f_e.shtml
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/forum/bprisons/speeches/7_e.shtml
http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/rs/rep/2003/rr03yj-4/rr03yj-4.html
http://www.cpa.ca/documents/Youth_Crime.PDF
http://www.criminology.utoronto.ca/library/strategies.doc


Garry
said

Personally, I would prefer to see the YOA scrapped . . . no free rides for Young Offenders. Also, I would like to see the parole system scrapped. If your sentenced to five years you do five years; if sentenced to life, you do life.


Ry
said

John,

Get your facts straight. Most legislation that comes to the floor of the house (approximately 80%) is not political, its made by Crown servants who do the research and the background work to make legislation as best they can to address the issues of the country.

The Youth Justice Act was created by the Department of Justice, based upon precedent of court rulings and challenges to the former Young Offenders Act and recommendation from provincial ministers. Regrettably, even your revered Conservatives voted in favour of it.

As for this lanky piece of garbage they've tabled before the house, not one thought has been given to the downstream cost effects on the judicial system of this joke. I think if Provincial Ministers sat and did their homework, or listened to their staff to see how much this is going to cost their budgets (it's astronomic), they'd be dragging their jaw to the federal Finance Minister to increase their transfer payments!

If Canadians could truly conceive the costs of these things and the mark-up for having the Government actually do it (unions, laziness, etc.) they would be appalled. There is a reason folks why are laws are tamer than most countries, we can't afford it - plain and simple. Canadian's always seem to think that the Treasury Board is some limitless money tree across from Parliament Hill.... staggering, it really is.


sue
said

It's about time they make the kids responsible for their actions. Too many times it's just a slap on the wrist and then they go and do it again but this time they go farther, and the parents always say the same thing. They are good kids, well if they were good kids then they wouldnt have done it. As for the parents, maybe if they were more responsible and discplined the kids properly and kept track of what they were doing it wouldnt get to a point were the law has to step in. Finally they will be held accountable.


RRO
said

I am all for working on the root causes of crimes. There is poverty, child abuse, alcoholism and just plain bad families these kids come from. But in the end we have to teach them that they are responsible for their own actions. These "kids" are committing horrific crimes which in some cases are worse then those even committed by adults. They have to face the punishment. What kind of lesson are we teaching youth that if they committ crime when they are young they can get away with it because once they turn 18 as far as the law is concerned it never happened.
Let's address some of the causes but for now let's deal with the results and show the rest of our young people when you do the crime you due the time no matter how old you are.

RRO
said

These are solid measures. Young people should not be put in jail for small mistakes made in their youth which is where the act is right on. We should work to educate.
But in violent crime, the time for education has passed. When youth murder, rape, assault people there are serious issues and they have waved the right to being tried as a child. This is for society's protection.


Ecology Student
said

It seems a contradiction to be raising the age of protection/consent while at the same time charging more youth as adults. How come those who feel 14 year-olds fully understand their choices when they commit offences seem to feel the opposite when youth choose to engage in sexual activities?


Hannah
said

"The Tories want to change the law so that it makes mere possession of someone else's identity a crime." So if I have a friend, spouse's or family member's id, credit card, bank card or what-have-you in my possession at any given time (for whatever benign reason) I could be criminally charged for that alone? If so, surely I'm not the only one who finds this both frightening and outrageous to the extreme.

With regard to how best to approach our young offenders problem and who/what are to be blamed for the problem, the issue is far too complex to be understood or addressed with myopic, one dimensional ideologies. I do find it curious though, that no one here has noted the influence of pop culture...


LM
said

A crime is a crime no matter what the age is. The young offenders act was a great way to give the young offender a slap on the back, thus giving them the opportunity to do it again


Albert
said

This kind of reform in youth justice is long overdue. Youth crime is not from boredom - violence occurs right outside dances and community centres. It is not about poverty - the economy has never been better and jobs are abundant for youth. It is largely about a culture developing where crime and violence are exciting sports. Stealing cars and beating up people is fun. The consequences are minimal or none. Yes, fund efforts to address some root causes, but there simply must be an element of punishment to instill a sense of consequence. I don't care about the additional cost for prison sentences. It is money well spent.


John
said

WASTE OF TAXPAYER MONEY!
Just like in the USA.

This will do absolutely nothing to decrease crime.

All it will do is get more people locked up and pump up the prison industry (more officers, more prison space needed, more prison food, etc. good for economy)

People in this country should face reality and start attacking problems at their roots before it turns into America.

The indifference sown into our society over the past decade or so is causing the crime rates to go up. People have begun to adopt a "nothing to lose" attitude and a lack of respect for other people.

No matter how harsh you make the laws nothing will change for the better. It won't matter how many inanimate objects and ideas you declare war on--war on drugs, war on terrorism, war on anything as long as it distracts from the real problem and makes us think we are making progress for the better.

Wake Up!


John
said

Dear Canadian. Education is not a Federal responsibility. The Feds give money to the provinces and they spend it as they see fit. Did the Liberals ever do anything to proactively tackle the youth crime problem, NO! Basically they turned the Young Offender's Act into a weaker more touchy feely Youth Criminal Justice Act a few years ago and that has done nothing. At the end of the day these kids have to be punished and stop being coddled.



Dave
said

I am sick to death of you pig-headed right wingers painting ALL parents with the same brush. I know it's easier to blame the parents than it is to maybe sit down and think for a few minutes, but believe it or not, there are some VERY good parents out there with some VERY bad children. Parenting only goes so far. Free will is more powerful than upbringing, and always will be. Especially by the time a child hits the teenage years, a parent has maybe 20% of the overall influence in their kids' lives, if they are LUCKY! Blaming the parents is exactly the same as just locking away people for life. It does nothing to adress the cause, and is a bandaid solution that, in the long run, becomes a gaping financial wound that just keeps draining and feeding upon itself.


K dub
said

I think Marlene Jennings summed it up quite well. You can't just jail people, you need to spend money to help them change their ways. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't go to jail, but jail isn't the only option.


Steve
said

It's about time we start making those little rascals accountable for there crimes. I am so sick and tired of the same criminals coming and going through the court system and let go. Le'ts put them where they belong behind bars.


Kevin Ducharme
said

This is great news! Because we all know that most people that leave prison end up becomming fine upstanding citizens. This is the perfect answer. Keep up the good work making those tough choices. I can't believe other governments haven't thought of this!


Canadian
said

Getting tough on crime is a good thing, however, what are the Tories doing to address the causes of the crime? Building jails and hiring prosecutors does nothing to address the cause of youth crime nor does cutting every social program under the sun, including education. This policy is not proactive, rather it is reactive and lacks any type of foresight to deal with the issue from a root cause perspective.


Neil
said

It's really too bad that so many people are all for locking people up instead of working on the root cause of why people commit crimes in the first place. I agree that the punishment should fit the crime, but prevention is the best cure. Helping people out before they get to the point where they feel they must commit crimes is a real long term solution that helps everyone in the long run. Money spent on education and rehab will serve better than longer prison sentences.


Ian
said

Youth who are committing violent crimes likely were violent even before they were ever charged criminally so I don't see how an education programme will do anything for them. The problem with the system as it stands now is that there is this presumption that they are just "kids" and should be treated with "kid" gloves. I don't think that they should be housed with adult offenders, but they should be subject to the same types of punishment. How would you like it if a young person were to murder your daughter and all he got was 6 years in custody and 4 years supervision in the community. Then after 15 years, if they don't get convicted as an adult in the meantime, that conviction comes off their criminal record as if nothing ever happened. Youth probation officers are already so overworked and understaffed that they can't properly "supervise" these offenders in the first place. Look around at how our youth today openly sell and smoke drugs in our parks in broad daylight (see it often) or smash bus shelters or slash tires for fun. All this is because they know that the consequences are pretty weak.


Janus
said

Kevin -- also charge their parents. Great point!

Robert -- Young Offender only for those 13 or younger. Another great point!

Parents are the biggest problem.


Dave in Surrey
said

The Maximum Security Prision in Coquitlam is full + 146... This seems to be a norm across Canada... I have no problem with get tough on crime, I just hope our government understands the cost and is going to budget for the increase...


-Brian-
said

It all started with the denial of parents to discipline their children, as this was considered "child abuse" (even tapping a child on the shoulder). With such laws in place, the youth have been given a free reign on what is "right" for them to do, with parental input not permitted. It's not a surprise that such legislation is now before parliament, with parents hands tied.

The real question is: To what age will this new legislation be applied? It seems, each year, younger and younger offenders are appearing to commit starker offences. Soon, I can imagine even six year old kids being charged with drug trafficking. If such offenders were sent to jail, they would sure find out a lot of how to operate in the criminal world, for sure!


Tom Trenton
said

Maybe if all the opposing parties would quit objecting to every bill introduced just maybe we would get some laws passed with some teeth in them. Ask the victims of these crimes. Opposition delay tactics caused the following bills to die 1/minimum penalties for firearm offences(414 days before Parliament
2/age of protection(246 days)
3/reverse onus for bail for firearm possesion(211 days)
Quit playing games and get something done for all the people of Canada, and not just your political party besides wasting tax paying dollars!


johnn
said

MH from Ontario wrote:
"Real problem is lack of education resulting in increased youth crime. We need to do something about that area."
I fully agree. However, most education in basic values occurs in the home.
If we could bring back some of the (currently often belittled) "old-fashioned family values", a lot would change.
If only parents would be the role models they should be . . . .


Raymond
said

How can anybody in their right mind argue AGAINST these proposals? It's about time. As for M. Jenning's concerns, two components of the Tories' three-pronged anti-drug strategy focus on education and treatment. If more prison space is required; so be it. Enough is enough. Should these initiatives be rejected, then I never want to hear Canadians complain about crime EVER again.


Frederick Stom
said

There is a great article on the BBC web site Head Line US PRISON SYSTEM 'COSTLY FAILURE'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7102054.stm

It highlights a report 'The Unlocking America report' Please read before you look for a prison system based on USA failures. It would be nice to see the Canadian press pick up on stories like this and give a balanced news story.


Ken
said

I am a firm Liberal but I can't say I'd be disappointed to see young offenders tried as adults for violent crimes. I've long been an advocate of this, in fact. However, I agree with the critics that this is NOT a deterrent and does NOT solve the problem. But even though this is being tabled by the party that I despise, I find myself obligated to agree with them on this one, and I hope Dion supports it.

The identity theft legislation scares me to death though. If it is not written correctly, it basically means that if you even store someone's credit card number in a database for e-commerce purposes, technically, you can be charged, as that is PII. I hope the critics tear this to shreds and make sure it's done properly.


robert
said

Young Offender Act should only be for those under 14 - all over 14 should be charged as adults and do adult prison time.

Just became 23 year old boy
said

I agree with what Marlene Jennings said. Plain as that!


Jason
said

About time, too many kids these days are totally out of control. The laws don't apply to these kids and their parents are powerless to punish them, they know that they are untouchable and act out accordingly. Obviously noone wants to throw a kid in jail for stealing a chocolate bar but these repeat young offenders charged with violent crimes need to get more than a slap on the wrist.


MH from Ontario
said

Real problem is lack of education resulting in increased youth crime. We need to do something about that area.


Kevin
said

Good it is about time. We should also put their parents in there with them.


Gayle
said

I wonder how many of you know anything about youth justice and youth crime - apart from what you read in the papers.

As someone who works with these offenders, allow me to put a few facts on the table.

First - for those of you who want to blame the parents, in my experience a substantial portion of youth offenders come from the Child Welfare system. This means we ALL are their parents. I suggest rather than complaining about the youth justice system you speak to your provincial government about what a terrible job they are doing with the children in their care.

Second - the provisions sought by the conservatives are already available. The YCJA actually increased the sentences for violent crimes, as well as created a presumption of an adult sentence after 3 serious violent offences have been commited. The concept of denunciation is built into the YCJA for particularly heinous offences, and the concept of deterrence has been proven, time and time again, to be false.

Third (this is to Tom T), the conservatives are misleading you when they claim the opposition held up those bills. Most of those bills were included in a liberal motion made last March to fast track them. The conservatives refused to do so.

Fourth - murder convictions never come off the record even for youth offenders.

Fifth - this is absolutely true:

"Building jails and hiring prosecutors does nothing to address the cause of youth crime nor does cutting every social program under the sun, including education. This policy is not proactive, rather it is reactive and lacks any type of foresight to deal with the issue from a root cause perspective."

The violent young people I deal with were almost all subjected to violence and other forms of abuse as children. Where were the social agencies that are supposed to intervene and assist them?

The simple fact is that most Canadians do not care what happens to these children - at least not until those children become teenagers and commit crimes.

Because I work with offenders, I also work with victims. Many of the youth I work with have been sexually assaulted, and/or murdered. What I wonder is when the governments will commit to doing something to PREVENT crime, rather than simply react to it. With all the money the conservatives have commited to their tough on crime approach, where will we find the money to treat these youth?


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