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Former chief of Statscan Munir Sheikh looks on as he prepares to appear before the House of Commons Industry committee looking into changes of the long-form census on Parliament in Ottawa, Tuesday, July 27, 2010. (Fred Chartrand / THE CANADIAN PRESS)  Industry Minister Tony Clement prepares to appear before the House of Commons Industry committee looking into changes of the long-form census on Parliament in Ottawa, Tuesday July 27, 2010. (Fred Chartrand / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Industry Minister Tony Clement speaks before the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology in Ottawa, Tuesday, July 27, 2010. Munir Sheikh

StatsCan's reputation damaged, former boss testifies

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CTV News Video

CTV National News: Craig Oliver reports
The government is standing by its decision to scrap the long-form census, while the former head of Statistics Canada, Munir Sheikh, believes it's a big mistake.
CTV News Channel: Peter Coleman, CEO
The CEO of the National Citizens' Coalition says the Tories must balance the issue of privacy and the requirements to give the government the information that is needed. He says the major concern is the threats of jail time and the opinions of Canadians are taken into consideration.
CTV News Channel: Ivan Fellegi, Statistics Canada
The former chief statistician at Statistics Canada says he understands why Munir Sheikh was emotional while testifying. He says that the resignation of a chief at StatsCan has never happened before and there was no reason for it to happen now.
CTV News Channel: Scott Brison, Liberal MP
The Liberal critic for international trade says the industry minister has created more questions then answers and has mislead Canadians by pretending he had support for the scrapping of the bill. He says it was an ideological decision by the Tories.
CTV News Channel: Don Drummond, economist
The former chief economist for TD Bank will testify before a Commons committee on the long form census decision, and says there are a number of ways to address the concerns of the government without abandoning the survey.
CTV News Channel: Munir Sheikh testifies
The former chief statistician Munir Sheikh, who resigned over the long census issue last week, testifies before the Industry Committee on Tuesday.
CTV News Channel: Clement testifies in Ottawa
Industry Minister Tony Clement testifies Tuesday before the Commons Industry committee
CTV News Channel: Clement takes questions, one
Industry Minister Tony Clement takes questions about the Harper government's decision to scrap the long census form.
CTV News Channel: Clement takes questions, two
Industry Minister Tony Clement takes questions about the Harper government's decision to scrap the long census form.

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Former chief of Statscan Munir Sheikh looks on as he prepares to appear before the House of Commons Industry committee looking into changes of the long-form census on Parliament in Ottawa, Tuesday, July 27, 2010. (Fred Chartrand / THE CANADIAN PRESS)  Industry Minister Tony Clement prepares to appear before the House of Commons Industry committee looking into changes of the long-form census on Parliament in Ottawa, Tuesday July 27, 2010. (Fred Chartrand / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Industry Minister Tony Clement speaks before the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology in Ottawa, Tuesday, July 27, 2010. Munir Sheikh

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Former chief of Statscan Munir Sheikh looks on as he prepares to appear before the House of Commons Industry committee looking into changes of the long-form census on Parliament in Ottawa, Tuesday, July 27, 2010. (Fred Chartrand / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

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So,we spend 30 million to implement a voluntary census form and provide useless data. Sounds like a great investment! This tips the scale for me.

Dave P

StatsCan's reputation damaged, former boss testifies

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StatsCan's reputation damaged, former boss testifies

Date: Tue. Jul. 27 2010 5:37 PM ET

The former head of Statistics Canada says he quit his job over reports that the agency recommended the scrapping of the mandatory long-form census – reports that deeply damaged the agency's credibility.

Former chief statistician Munir Sheikh resigned last week and became emotional while testifying in front of the Industry Committee in Ottawa Tuesday.

"The issue for us is the quality of that data, and we acknowledge, as the minister did, that (the politicians) are the ones who make decisions not the public servants," Sheikh said.

"The reason I stepped aside was because of some media stories that Statistics Canada was not just implementing the decision, but recommending it."

The reports were based on comments by Industry Minister Tony Clement, who has since changed his tune.

Clement, who also appeared before the committee on Tuesday, clarified his comments and said the controversial decision to scrap the mandatory long-from census was made by his government solely to "balance the need for data with the concerns of Canadians."

"It was our government that took the decision to put an end to the concept of Canadians being fined or facing jail time," said Clement, adding that StatsCan did not agree with the move.

Clement did tell the committee he was willing to compromise before the change comes into effect for the 2011 census, saying he's willing to include questions on official languages on the mandatory short census that were about to be part of the new volunteer long-from survey.

In his testimony Tuesday before the Industry Committee, Sheikh said data obtained from the census is compared to previous years to measure change. He said a volunteer survey cannot be compared to a mandatory one, effectively rendering the new data unusable.

Another former head of StatsCan, Ivan Fellegi, also testified Tuesday.

He said privacy fears were unwarranted because there has not been a single case of a person's identity being released by StatsCan.

The two former chief statisticians said the new volunteer survey would be biased because certain groups of people -- such as aboriginals and low-income Canadians -- would be underrepresented.

In his testimony, Clement repeatedly argued that Canadians should not face the threat of jail time or fines for not completing the long-form survey.

However, opposition members questioned why the government would keep the potential punishments in place for those who fail to comply with the short version of the mandatory census and the 200-question agricultural census.

Clement responded that the long-form survey is far more intrusive and Canadians should not be forced to fill it out.

"This reasoned and responsible approach is about finding a better balance between collecting the necessary data and protecting the privacy of Canadians," Clement said.

"I ask this simple question: who do you want to decide under what circumstances you are subject to jail -- your duly elected representatives, or someone else who is not accountable to you?" he added.

The minister did not answer when asked how many Canadians have been fined or spent jail time over the long-form survey.

The opposition accused the Conservatives of "manufacturing a crisis" over the census.

"The fundamental difference between us and you, is we expect that the industry minister make his decision on fact, and not on urban myth or what you hear on talk radio," New Democrat MP Charlie Angus said to Clement.

While the government says many Canadians agree with their move to scrap the survey, the privacy commissioner's office has said it only received three complaints in the last decade.

Clement has maintained that the data garnered from a volunteer census would be effective. However, according to news reports he was told otherwise, and virtually all statisticians interviewed on the matter have said a volunteer census reduces the value of the data.

As of 2011, Canadians will no longer be required to complete the long-form census, which 20 per cent of the population normally had to fill out. Replacing that is a volunteer survey sent out to 33 per cent of homes.

The switch from the mandatory long-form census to a voluntary survey will cost the federal organization about $30 million. About $5 million will be spent to mail out the survey to 60 per cent more households and up to $25 million to encourage public participation.

Widely-criticized move

Don Drummond, a former chief economist with TD Bank, sits on a national advisory committee for Statistics Canada appointed by the industry minister and said they were neither informed nor consulted on the census decision.

"We think there are a number of ways to address the concerns that government has put out there without abandoning the survey," he said, suggesting the jail sentence could be excised.

Fellegi also suggested later Tuesday that the government should experiment with a voluntary census before its implementation.

"The whole statistics profession is united in Canada and in the United States in saying that this is potentially very seriously biased, biased in the sense that it doesn't reflect the Canadian reality or any other country's reality," Fellegi told CTV News Channel. "Now, having said that, let's see if there are ways to get around it by more intensive follow-up, more effort at publicity and so on. Let's see if we can mitigate those problems. But let's not rush into it precipitously without seeing what we are buying."

Fellegi noted the census is used "for a vast number of hugely important decisions on which billions of dollars are spent."

The Tory move has been widely criticized by a number of groups who use the census data such as banks, social services, provincial governments and charity and religious groups.

Drummond noted that the U.S. once dropped the mandatory survey for a volunteer one and had a drop of 40 per cent in completion rate.

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Verve - Toronto
said

I am not sure if I am more concerned about the dumbing down of our citizens or our MP's. If Canada was a true democracy then ALL Canadians including the MP's would understand that " freedom comes with responsibility". Thanks to the Conservatives, the government will be spending $30 million to sell the new long form plus another $30 million plus to collect it - well only if they want a publishable response rate (I bet that tidbit of info was not even mentioned). It is a great way to artificially lower the unemployment rate. Good for you!! By the way, where can I file for a refund on my political contributions?

Linda - Ottawa
said

"balance the need for data with the concerns of Canadians." Can Mr. Clement expand on that!


Sam
said

I would rather go to jail than fill out Harper's ridiculous micky mouse census. It will cost more & provide inadequate information. An election now get rid of these destroyers of Canada.


Linda Querel
said

The long census takes minutes to fill out and is a valuable tool - bring it back and yes changing this at the last moment is just bad judgement. This is wrong, admit mistake and bring it back.


Andrew
said

Voting is voluntary.Completing a Survey is mandatory.It feels like they have things a bit backwards there.


Richard D
said

All right. I've seen the arguments rage back and forth, and not one person on the side of keeping the long form mandatory has been able to say just why this form is so desperately needed. Not a single one of them has given even a single example of what the long form, with all the questions it asks, does to improve the lives of Canadians here and abroad.So, I'll ask them an easier question, then. If the long form is so vital to the efficient running of our country, why does the short form exist at all? Why isn't everyone in the country who has been chosen to fill out a census form given the long form? One would think that a document that is so vital should be the default document, and not the one that is given out to so few households.


NSSHerlock
said

Sure it's nice to stick to your guns, but let's not forget that this man can AFFORD to retire! He's 63yrs old and has over 35yrs with the Public Service! He's getting a full pension after earning a full time wage of between $163,600. -$191,900 per year! Must be nice!


Kevin
said

The Media pundits have lost sight of a tremendous controversial issue here.If there is a 95% compliance rate and 5% would represent tens of thousands of people who called the Government's bluff, without consequence. What other threats are available that legally we can understand to be hollow threats and defend our actions if they do follow through, using the census as an excuse for not taking them at their word?The Liberals have put forward the prospect that the Government can be taken as a joke. How much integrity is demonstrated by a Government that does not follow through on their threats? And correct me if I'm wrong here, but is coercion not still a matter of criminality and do the census takers not commit an illegal act, every time they threaten someone in order to extract information from someone who is resistant to providing it voluntarily?


Bill Sutherland, Ottawa
said

A quick non-Stats Canada survey - how many Canadians had even heard of former chief statistician Munir Sheikh before this week, and how many will miss him??? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!!!!


Havelock Heavy
said

I guess I'm one of the 'knuckleheads' that supports the value of the long form. I've filled it out in the past and am happy to do it again in the future if Clement finally decides to do the right thing.


Gerry
said

Good to see that we are not socialist like the U.S.


Mel
said

Tony Clement and the Conservative government are behaving shamefully. They continue to deceive and manipulate facts. They are playing us like a card game. We deserve better. We deserve a government that doesn't treat leadership like a poker game. They should stop trying to purposefully deceive us. The Conservatives are not worthy of running a national government. They need to be impeached.

B. Kelley, Private In Ontario
said

Liberals are so totally addicted to big government that they can't help but support a process where our overseer's can force us to divulge whatever information Big Brother demands from us. Governments historically misuse information to justify intervention in our personal lives, raise taxes and invent programs that waste our precious financial resources. Some may want their representatives and power-hungry bureaucrats to dictate every decision, action and thought that they have but, for those of us who are intelligent and secure enough to run our own lives, the less the government knows about us the better.


James T
said

Huge...Your Jedi training is incomplete Padawan, as you have incorrectly identified the liberals as the Sith. They - or anyone else standing left-of-centre in Canadian politics - are serving the will of the majority. (The most recent polls put 56% of the population on the left, with only 315 on the right.) Darth Sweater Vest, on the other hand, is a Sith Apprentice. He has no mandate from the general populace to make sweeping changes to the fabric of this country, yet in doing his Master's bidding he attempting to do exactly that. Unfortunately the veil of the Dark Side is heavy, and I can not see how DSV will benefit from this collossal error in judgement.


charles
said

I can't believe this. The conservatives argue that people shouldn't go to jail over the long census, but will still permit jail-time for the short census? This whole thing makes no sense. Add to the fact that no one has ever gone to jail.The people writing here who support banning the mandatory long form census are just die-hard conservative lap-dogs who will support absolutely anything Harper does.


happy
said

Harper doesn't think it's necessary for Canadians to answer the mandatory census because he doesn't plan to provide any money or programmes for neighbourhoods or communities in need. He therefore doesn't care what your standard of living is. He'll just continue to provide tax breaks for his rich pals and the religious right freaks.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

@ Dr. M: Much appreciated. (I thought that you were just blowing partisan smoke. Thanks for confirming that was, indeed, the case. Perhaps you were just shadow-boxing a conservative villain.) Kindly refer to my comment to Sue, above, for an underscoring of the central point to be made here. Take care.


Island Man
said

He's obviously not a Harper Con Shrill...the man has intergrity...something Harper would not understand.


Sergy
said

The only use for the long-form data is to further divide us as a nation through the political opportunism and social engineering that ALL parties and levels of government engage in.After all, how can Canada possibly survive unless you know that I'm a bi-lingual, bi-cultural, bi-sexual, visable minority, one-armed, female, communist, Prius-driving, upper-income, university-educated, goat rancher?Stop focusing on what keeps us apart, and start focusing on what brings us together.


Ian K
said

Three comments:(1) The vast majority of Canadians don't give a rap about the census one way or another, at least not enough to change their vote. Most of this story is media-hype trying to 'sex-up' a slow news week.(2) Insofar as there is a genuine controversy here, it shows Canadian hypocrisy is alive and well. On one hand we want our privacy rights protected and on the other, we want a highly intrusive census that can lead back to our front door. (How else could they penalize us for failure to comply?) (3) The media hype about the census is good for distracting people from Ignatieff's cross-country tour which is obviously not causing much excitement anywhere if it can be up-staged by a debate about the census.


Chris
said

To Carl (primarily) and, to some extent Prof Pye Chartt: Data from any voluntary survey is always intrinsically biased, and therefore unreliable on its own. A census benchmark is used to estimate the bias and calibrate for it, to make the data more usable in terms of reliability. So, for instance, if for transportation infrastructure planning you get data from a voluntary survey that says 90% of respondents leave for work at 8am, but benchmark data from the mandatory census says only 70% of the population leave for work at 8am, you can estimate your bias and account for it. It's more complex than that, but just to illustrate one reason why mandatory censuses exist. Voluntary surveys themselves rely on that data. A survey cannot check against itself. The census, though imperfect, is the foundation on which everything else rests.


Volunterr to Recycle
said

The issue here is the CONS pushing their ideology over sound advice. It is obvious that they were given advice they did not want to hear (or they did not seek advice as Don Drummond indicated) and now they are twisting it as a privacy issue. I think people should be more worried about what they put on Facebook or Twitter!I must say the CONS are very good at twisting the truth.


Dan from Northern Ont
said

How is this religious ideology? If anything this is libertarian ideology fighting against the ideology of entitlement. Nothing in the bible that says "Thou shalt not fill in censuses"Stop using buzz words.


Dr. M
said

Once again professor, you completely misunderstand the argument. I did not supply specifics because my argument is based on general considerations of whether governments, left or right, need information to make decisions. As I pointed out, the government itself must provide the rationale for the specific questions they ask. If they cannot, then those questions should be eliminated. But it is absurd to argue a priori that no information of any type is required, or that no questions are useful That is an empirical question to be decided after the committee investigating this incident has done its work, not before. I am only pointing out the general theoretical background behind any statistical information -gathering process, not defending or attacking this particular group of questions. Whether or not the information can be gathered more effectively by other means also remains an open empirical question- if it could be, then I have no problem with doing so. The government, Conservative or Liberal, has to defend what its doing on rational grounds. I am merely pointing out that many of the arguments made against the long-form are irrational because of their presumptions, not defending the specific questions themselves. In a cross-post, however, I provided MAZ with an example of how a specific question might be being used by the government to fullfill its policy agenda. I presume similar arguments might be made for all the questions, but that's up to the government to do, not me.


Basil
said

I don't know if Harper necessarily wants to make ideological decisions or not. One thing is clear and that's that the conservatives want to scrap this census form no matter what. If Harper is that sure that Canadians don't want the long form, grow a pair and make it an election issue. That way he would be sure. I am taking a purely non-partisan approach to this issue, and personally believe that it is intrusive, but not so much that we need to scrap it. Stats-Can is one of the most non-partisan departments in the whole of the Canadian government, and is envied by many, many other governments, including the United States. I have talked to people in the States, and they can't believe that our government is scrapping such a worth while department. I do know that many colleges, and universities will no longer have a place to go, to get worthwhile statistics, which the schools are willing to accept. I guess the kids now, will have to rely on Wikipedia, or the US statistics, to do their papers on Canada.


Bryan
said

To all the people who are agreeing with Tony Clement, I think you should really educate yourself as to what the data is used for before you make up your mind. I'm guessing you're either Conservatives and just going along with whatever your government says, or you don't understand the value of the data.


Dave P
said

So,we spend 30 million to implement a voluntary census form and provide useless data. Sounds like a great investment! This tips the scale for me.


Bill in BC
said

The only thing "damaging" StatsCan's reputation is its own beaurcrats who try to pull political stunts. If he hadn't resigned he should have been FIRED for breaching the political neutrality of the public service.PS. Reece in NB; thanks for coming out but like the proverbial poor marksman you still keep missing the target.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

@ Sue: Seeing as, according to you, your education is at an advanced level, and you've done plenty of "fancy learnin'" (again, according to you), it would be nice to see you live up to your own self-ascribed intellectual standing and validate your argument by taking it beyond an empty shell of partisan opposition. That is, enlighten us all with a specific explanation as to how specific information is used and, thus, needed. Simply stating that all the information garnered from the long-form census is "critical" because, well, it just is, doesn't constitute grounds upon which to take your assertion seriously. Now's your chance to shine, Sue. Lecturing (read: condescending) on this issue without facts or substantive support is vacuous. By specific example (not vague reference), please demonstrate the "importance" of selected questions on the long-form census, and illustrate, specifically, how said information is used by the ultimate recipient to better our world, therefore rendering such information entirely needed. Note that you must avoid pertinent information that can be gathered from non-public sources. (My bet: You can't do it.) The "highbrow" Liberal defenders of the long-form census have yet to show that they actually know what they're talking about in an "information society" no longer trapped in 1975. Good luck, Sue.


sarah613
said

I don't really understand what the fuss is about. I've filled out the form before and yes some of the q's are a little intrusive. However, a census is necessary and if its been mandatory for all these years then change it now would make it useless and can't be compared to previously collected data. For the people worried about personal privacy from the gov't...be grateful that we have a gov't that takes an interest of how the general public survives in society. If you want privacy, move to N. Korea, you'll sure have privacy there...you'll practically be invisible.


NS
said

Wa wa wa..... If every time my boss made a mistake, or lied, either way, I quit, I would be in the lineup at the local soup kitchen. Surely he could have made a protest without quitting. Suck it up, it's called "Work" for a reason.


Kevin
said

The quality of the stats produced by stats Canada have been diminished considerably to a point they are of little use to anyone, as a result of a reform of their stat categories and politicization, during the Paul Martin Mr. Dithers years. If you look at the range and headings produced in the 90s compared to what is left today, you can see there seems to be a deliberate attempt to hide, particularly population stats, so that Health Canada could proceed with large propaganda campaigns named as "denormalization." at health Canada. Demonstrating a government which doesn't care what you believe, they can always change it. Harper made no effort to shut it down, so you have to conclude he apparently would like to inject some new thoughts into your head as well.For the head of stats Canada to say that eliminating the long form, attacks the credibility of the agency is a joke. Stats collected voluntarily have always been more reliable even with diminished numbers. The thought that your opinions are attached to any of the information gathered is perverse. They collect what they want to collect, nothing more. What they were producing most recently is nothing more than fodder for Tokyo Rose news bites. Creating irresponsible fears and hatred of the non conforming productivity slaves amongst us, to benefit the Green/d movement , Education and healthcare reforms and a host of other illiberal big ideas, Primarily to align Canada with the fascist dictates of the UN agencies, who list us as member state and human capitol, Governed under the rule of their stakeholder corporate partners.Nothing to see here folks just more of the same old same old, non conformity rabble rousing.


master huge bazsack
said

According to census... There is a new visible minority in Canada and I am one them (Jedi Knight’s) According to census there are over 21,000 of us. So how will the Libreals sever me and my Jedi brother and sisters better with this information??? only a sith lord would take away your freedoms of Choice


Christine
said

What's with all the paranoia? I'm no rocket scientist, but I can certainly grasp the concept of gathering information for the purposes of determining status of living, economic trends, religious denominations,etc. This isn't communist China, you won't be persecuted for your religion and you'd tell any shmuck on the street how many bathrooms you have. I can't believe that in Canada in 2010 people are so paranoid they would lie on the census. I can go on the net and look at the inside of peoples houses on real estate websites. What is the big deal? Do people go to church, synagogue, etc under to cover of darkness so no one knows thier religion?


John Lethbridge
said

I am so with the Conservatives on this one, and this is long, long overdue. The long census is way too intrusive, and when you resist or object, the StatsCan folks don't hesitate to inform you that you would face court or fine or jail time by not filling it out. For me, at the end of the day it was rational decision between divulging some personal information or the court fine jail thing.


Dr. M
said

MAZ asks "Why does the government need to know what religion I am or how many bedrooms I have in my house?" This is a perfectly reasonable question, MAZ. There is nothing wrong with requiring that the government give a rationale for every question. I don't know about the bedroom one, but can I offer what may be an answer to the religious one? 19% of the charities in Canada are religious orrganizations. Many of these organizations receive some government funding. In order to ensure that the funding provided is equitable, the government needs to know what percentage of the population is affiliated with each religion, so that Christians, for example, get their fair share of funding. Using religious charities to alleviate child hunger, for example, turns out to be a very efficient thing to do, because there is an existing infrastructure, including volunteer labour, already in place. Of course, you may disagree with the aim of reducing child hunger, but as this is a leading cause of failure in schools, you may wish to think that through a bit. having a well-educated workforce is a good idea, I think. And if reducing child hunger by giving money to religious charities helps promote this objective, I'm willing to support it. Even if asking me whether I'm "Chrisitan or agnostic" seems intrusive. But perhaps you'd like to offer the argument in support of child hunger?


Acroyear
said

@Louis-Paul Comir� in Markham Ahem...I am TOTAL agreement on that. Business should not have access to CENSUS data. If Stats Can wants to be in business, then let then do non mandatory poles for that. Census data should be restricted to Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments... PERIOD. EVERY non governmental body should have to go to private research firms...end of discussion. They do THAT, I'll gladly do my civic duty...until they do that, I'll either toss a voluntary from in my shredder, or a mandatory one with garbage data.


MARG MM
said

So if the "compromise" is to remove the threat of jail time, is that not in fact making the long form voluntary? To the usual "suspects" that constantly call PM Harper a dictator, why don't you feel that the mandatory long form with the threat of jail time is dictatorial? Oh yes, that is a Liberal initiative, so it is OK, but anything done by PM Harper is not, even though the Conservatives are trying to take the "dictator" aspect out of the mandatory form.It seems that, according to what some are saying, there are a lot of people against removing the mandatory form, so all that needs to be done, is those opposed, and don't have a problem, just volunteer, and there will be more long forms than needed. So, Wendy/Sue, and all of you other " Harper haters", call your MP, tell him/her that you would be more than happy to fill out the new voluntary form, and the problem is solved. If any "special interest" groups are worried about being left out, feel free to volunteer as well. This is just more of "the much ado about nothing" and if the shoe were on the other foot (Liberals wanting to get rid of the long form) we can all rest assured that all the "naysayers" would be OK with it.


ouifyg
said

Carlsaid Here's another way the opposition contradicts itself on this issue: They say good data can only be collected by making the census mandatory. Yet, every political party and public policy think-tank in the country spends lots of money on polls and surveys that are completely voluntary. Since nobody is forced to reply to these public opinion polls, does that mean none of the opinion polls we constantly read about in the media are acccurate? Yes Carl that IS actually what it means!! This is not contradiction but truth. Are you seriously suggesting that the voluntary polls we constantly get are perfect? Why bother having elections then? A small voluntay poll should be good enough!


Gilles Lebrun
said

Would it surprise you to know that only the data from the "long form" is taken into consideration? That is why the "long form" only goes out to 20% of the population : households 1 to 4 get the "short form", the 5th gets the "long form".To ensure that the same households in an area don't get the "long form" every 5 years, the "short forms" might be given to the first 2 and the 3rd would get the "long form". From there every 5th household would get the "long".Trust me if the "long form" is replaced with a voluntary survey going out to 33% of the households, rest assured that Canada Post will be very busy returning mail to the sender!!!Ask anyone who worked during Census 2006 how many times they had to call or go back to a household to remind people to fill in the forms whether short, long or agricultural. Some of the workers ran after some forms until the middle of August 2006...the Census was in mid-May...Good luck Mr. Clement with your voluntary survey, I hope your statistics aren't too skewed!!!


cam
said

@Reener:This has nothing to do with left and right.Some right wing governments have been trampling human rights for decades.Did you sleep through the Bush years?Your beloved conservatives have you lining up for scans at airports and are implementing national id cards disguised as passports and drivers licenses.Until people get off the invented left right divide and realize the agenda is a bi-partisan affair our rights will continue to dwindle..


David - B.C.
said

Typically blown out of proportion by special interest groups and incurring unnecessary costs that the taxpayers can ill-afford. Indeed, criticism without a solution is useless, so here we go:

Statistics Canada merely issues a new census form to everyone. The first section is the current short-form which everyone is required to fill in. The second section is the current long-form and only those wishing to fill it in do so.

If the proponents figures are accurate, Statistics Canada will increase their long-form returns from 20% to some 50% and no further change is called for.

However, anything less than a 50% long-form conformist rate will increases the nonconformist rate accordingly. Since we are never bashful in trumpeting our great democratic system - where the majority rule and government is by the people for the people - we should practice what we preach and simply abolish the long-form, leaving those currently benefitting from this ‘confidential’ privacy intrusion to pay for their own snooping!


yogi
said

I just can't believe this actually made news.I think a lot of people are just worried thier high paid jobs would no longer be required.


Ben
said

Although I agree with most comments that once again the Conservatives are manufacturing dissent to suit their own agenda, I have to admit that some of the questions i read on the last Census i was involved in i found to be really invasive; this could be dealt with by making the long form's protionof anything but the most basic questions, anonymous..no one will object to answering questions that are too personal if they can do so anonymously. Although I'm sure that StatsCan has a deservedly sterling reputation when it comes to trying to protect our privacy, I don't trust the two governments I'm forced to live with to do the same..raise your hands, all of you who think that Gordo and Harpo are trustworthy in any sense of the word? With my medical records being privatized to the States, and things like Wikileaks making it obvious that we aren't being told the truth about much of anything, I think it's time for an election.


Dr. M
said

By the way, those of you who are arguing against the census because you believe that it is used only to promote more government programs (our Libertarian friends) should realize that the data is used to evaluate the effectiveness of those programs, and sometimes, to eliminate them. Arguing against the long-form census will not get you smaller government- only less efficient government. But maybe that's the real agenda behind this move. Make government less efficient, then argue that it ought to be abolished. I wonder how many Canadians would be foolish enough to buy into that line of reasoning....? Stay tuned....Right now, 58% of the population think we need to keep the long-form census, and keep it mandatory. Only 24% think it is intrusive (to within 3.1%)). Since the Decima poll that conducted this survey used statistically reliable methods, then we can be sure that the results include people who have done the long-form on both sides of the argument. Therefore, 58% to 24% don't find it intrusive. And since only 3 people in ten years have actually complained, then even those who find it intrusive apparently aren't all that upset. Unless of course they are blogging to support whatever the Conservative government does, rational or not.


John Love
said

Tony Clement should resign. This is the second major occasion where he has demonstrated a lack of ability to properly plan. And in this latter case we can also add the charge that he lied, claiming that he had Statistics Canada behind him when he clearly did not. The first example of hi incompetence was lobbying for the G8/G20 summit in his home riding of Muskoka only to discover, somewhat belatedly that Huntsville would not have enough hotel rooms to host the G20 event. That mistake resulted in a doubling of summit costs that cost taxpayers well over $1B... and in the process seriously impacted Toronto business and left a sour taste in the mouths of Torontonians. The second occasion of incompetence was this latest census debacle. Sure we probably could change the census, but the impact to past data and all of the groups that depend on it would be immense. Why not take some time to put in place -- lets call it -- a plan? In either case, Mr. Clement has proved he is incompetent and should resign.


Louis-Paul Comiré in Markham
said

Under no circumstances should StatsCan be allowed to sell any information to companies! If they do, I expect payment for my details ($5000 per company), which I do not share with anyone in the first place!I have not faced the long form and am glad so far. Should it be instituted again, we should charge SyatsCan and the members of parliament in favour of it under the rpivacy laws of this country! Most of that information is none one else's business no matter what!


Graham
said

There are two groups here. Thase who give to the government, and those who take from the government. Those who GIVE to the government, you know, the people who actually work for a living and pay taxes are in favour of the change. Those who TAKE from the government, you know, the welfare bums are against the changes.


Matt
said

Here's an idea: To all those angry about this decision by the government, why don't you call them up, give them your name address and telephone number and demand they send you the voluntary long form in 2011.


Katrina
said

Who has been arrested for not filling out the census? Can I presume that it was some high profile politician and not a citizen?

It's funny how we're so easily intimidated into giving up our voice.




anson5
said

This guy sounds like a drama queen. If canadians are so outraged about the long census form not being mandatory then make sure you fill out the voluntary one.


Shon in Edmonton
said

I have had the joy(sic) of being required to fill out the long form in the last 2 census. The first time; i put n/a (not applicable), or none of your business, in the areas i did not agree with; the 2nd time I filled it out fully, then ran it through my cross-cut shredder and then mailed it in. I will not fill out any census ever again. My information (including my name, etc.) is exactly that: my private information. It belongs to me and no one is ever going to force me to give that info to whom I choose not to.


simon
said

Minister Clement told the GLOBE and MAIL that they wanted to get rid of the long form based on advise from STATS CAN. Clearly, he LIED!


Arthur
said

Unfortunately we do not live in an egalitarian, non-discriminatory society. Minorities and the poor need proper representation.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

@ Dr. M: Thanks for adding to the tattered quilt of those who, with self-proclaimed intellectual superiority, insist that the long-form census is a critical governmental "planning" tool, but, in typical amusing fashion, cannot make an intelligent argument for its preservation because they cannot link specific information to specific usage, and cannot, in their political and ideological obstinance, fathom that most information sought can, indeed, be obtained outside the realm of the mandatory public census itself. (Note: For example, Canadian real estate boards are a wealth of private, but accessible, information that don't involve polls, surveys, or questionnaires.) "Informed decisions" don't NECESSARILY involve public census information. That's ridiculous. Furthermore, to effectively assert that ONLY information gathered by mandatory census is "valid" or "reliable" and, thus, useful, is asinine and, frankly, beyond a tad ignorant. Clearly, you don't really understand what municipalities, provinces, and the federal government itself do with particular information. You're just blindly defending an entrenched practice without present-day facts. (I happen to have fairly good insight into what actually guides municipalities, informationally.) Contrary to the implied confidence on your part, a great many academics (who understand statistics quite well) along with a number of public/private-sector "consultants" don't support your hollow anti-conservative position. Should you ever stumble upon a meaningful argument for the current long-form census that contains SPECIFICS, and not solely lofty rhetoric that immediately evaporates, kindly share it with me/us. Thanks, Doc.


peter in MB
said

To all of you people who call Harper a Dictator You have it Bass Ackwards . Since When!!! dose a Dictator give you privacy rights and freedom of chose??? Go live in Iran where you have no rights or freedoms and you will see what a true dictator really is., you people are either really confused or really stupid. If Hitler was alive and was the leader of the liberal party you would probably vote for him


A CHINESE BUDDHIST AND I DON'T CARE IF YOU KNOW
said

As a person of an ethnic minority and a lesser religion, I couldn't care less if they asked me what my religion was or what type of person I am. Those questions help us in the end to determine the types of services the government can provide. For example, lots of Chinese or Hindus? Maybe we should offer more language services in Chinese and Hindu or have integration programs/services for the types of people who will need it (e.g. Immigrants, workers, new students). Conservatives always make a sh!t over absolutely nothing.


elaine
said

i must mention, that it sounds like those that did fill out this form, did so seriously. stop thinking that anyone takes your personal information in order to be informed and provide you with better political representation. pay your taxes and hush. you are numbers.


Chris, Irishtown Nl
said

If you want less government and pray for the answers to come to you in the absence of facts, move south. If you want good decision making and a reasonable level of government for a progressive society, stay here(for now.........).I think we've grown up enough to realize that we are responsible for our government and country and people should stop whining about their civic responsibilities. BTW, I've completed the long survey 3 times myself and yes I moan about it but I still do it.


Dave Scott
said

I just looked at the long form in 2006. I don't find it intrusive at all. All of the information being collected I can see the value in knowing these details and how people are actually living and getting by. People must realize that buisness, gov'ts, banks and medical institutions use this information to plan thier markets and businesses and medical needs. If the data is not credible (which it will be if it is voluntary), then their analysis will be skewed and incorrect and their business plans severly comprimised.


Chris
said

Carl: A census is simply a count. The state is not interested in whether Carl (the individual) is black or white. It just needs to know how many Carls there are. It is definitely relevant to a variety of decisions how many black Carls and how many white Carls there are. For instance, black Carl is almost twice as likely to be susceptible to prostate cancer than white Carl. The number and concentration of black Carls is relevant to decisions around the delivery of health care.


elaine
said

if anyone wants intimate information regarding my life, they are to wine and dine me first, then maybe.......not. never did fill out this invasive questionnaire, never will. someone wants to cry and resign, please do you big baby.


elaine
said

never filled it out.


MegaBucks
said

You know what makes being rich hard?Having to come here and read the blithering comments of the 'average' Canadian.I for one have completely supported Harper and his agenda since 2006 knowing full well that he makes it much easier for smarter and richer Canadians such as myself to amass more wealth.Removing this ridiculous census survey only helps because this way 'average' Canadians won't be all up in arms as peasants tend to do when they realize in 20 years there is more of them than us.Harper is only trying to protect the wealthy, the smart, the very few in Canada that should have special priviledge. So Bill and Carl and Victoria and the rest, I love you.


Gord. Robson, Nova Scotia
said

In the past commentors on this sight have stated they did not like the long form so they gave information that was false. I do not mind the short form and do not have a problem with "having" to fill it out.I do not see how forcing us to fill out a nosey long form, that many are providing incorrect/false information is accomplishing much at all !!Better to have the short form or just add a few questions to the short form or have a voluntary long form. Stop the stupid Harper bashing and grow up !


MAZ
said

Honestly, why does the government need to know what religion I am or how many bedrooms there are in my home?


island girl
said

Although they say privacy is protected, it's not if you live in a remote area. I lived on a small island where ALL the residents got the long forms (about 50 of us) We could not fill them out in private but were asked the questions by a neighbour, hired by the government. We had to divulge to our neighbour our income, education, etc. knowing full well the info would be general knowledge on the island before nightfall. It was terrible. Why couldn't we fill the info in, and mail it without interrogation by a neighbour?


bryan fraser - ontario
said

Big Brother is watching, And you will do as i say not as i do. Is that the Liberal way?cause it sure sounds like it with all the articles in the news thanks to our LIberal news organizations & our liberal opposition.And to those that insist PM Harper is a dictator, Move to CUBA & stay there. Get out sick & tired of reading BS like that, Was Pearson a Dictator? Clark? Trudeau? Mulroney ? Chretian? Martin? Of course they were not & You still have the same freedoms & rights in Canada With one being the Right to Vote in an election in which there is more then 1 canidate. So why do you insist on calling Harper a Dictator .I also assume you dont like your boss at work, cause he is a dictator too.


peter in MB
said

A responsible government represents the country internationally, has a responsibility to tax as little as possible, and intervene in peoples lives as little as possible.Why do the liberals think that they have the right to stick their pointy little noses into everyone business. Thank you conservatives, it is high time the liberals got their noses flattened.


Reener
said

I have yet to read a single post anywhere from someone who has filled out the long form in the past who thought it was anything other than intrusive. Clearly the people who are against the mandatory filing of the long-form have never filled one out themselves. I can't believe the questions I've seen, way too personal for a government database.

This country is being destroyed by socialist leaders born with silver spoons in their mouths who think cradle-to-grave government coddling is a good thing for society. Except when they have to stand in the same lines as everyone else, then it's off to the US for front of the line service. The worst part? The sheep who are following them. Baa baa all you NDP and Liberal supporters. You are collectively destroying what could be a great country. The government knows enough about me already, this is all about the special interest groups who are desperately trying to stay alive with huge grants from the government.


doug
said

The Harper government is a disgrace! Lies, lies. lies, manipulation, intimidation and hypocracy will be their legacy.Shame on them and those that support them in their drive to degrade our beautiful country.Of course this government is lying about Stats Canada's position on this issue. How could it be otherwise?doug


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

@ Larry King: You're actually acknowledging my point, Larry. Thanks. I was merely characterizing the behavior of a civil servant who has been pilloried for his highly-inappropriate action. Your partisan slag of Conservatives in your silly post is self-discrediting.


Portes
said

c douglasYou say that Mr. Harper is a dictator. I can tell you one much bigger who had big plans for Canada. His name was Trudeau. I remember meeting him at a function in the Caribbean, where he told me that he thought Canada should be just like Cuba, I forgot to mention that he had just met Fidel Castro the the same evening. He said that he greatly admired Stalin as he was a true leader and that Canada should be a communist state. I tell no lie when I write this as I knew the man and had little or not respect for him. So when you talk about dictators ,look in your own party first. You are not old enough to have known the Trudeau years, but do some research before you post about dictators


Dave in Qc.
said

if the possibility of going to jail is the BIG problem then take it out.Not hard to do.I notice Clements therefore Harper is trying to make this the issue although not one single Canadian has ever gone to jail for this.The Americans under George Bush tried the voluntary Census and it was a disaster.If anyone has a problem filling out a census to help in getting information the country needs I would say perhaps we should question their patriotism and what they are afraid of revealing.Harper and Clements painting Themselves as the Great defenders of democracy is a bloody joke.So Pye Chart and the rest of you Harper can do no wrong folks take your best shot I couldn't care less.Seriously those of you who persist in saying I won't vote Liberal again I don't believe you ever did in the first place.So rant on my brothers and sisters no one on here is going to change anyone elses' opinion anyway.


Mdudak in Ottawa
said

Anyone who has worked with the Federal Government would stipulate that to run an effective government, sufficient and complete data must be available. Programs cannot be managed adequately and cost efficiently if they are not based on recent and accurate data on the population.As someone said, good data enables good government, a lesson Mr. Harper should learn! Frankly, I feel as I felt after many years of Mulronney government. It is time to bring back those who actually know how to run an efficient government. Can you believe all the sacrifice we did for so many years to lower our national debt have all been for nothing, the conservatives have made so many bad decision that our debt is for beyond what it was before we started making those sacrifices. Get them out of there before we cannot fix what they have broken.


Dr. M
said

The Torries are well-meaning, but confused, as are many posters here. This census form has nothing to do with "socialism", but with the ability of any government, left or right, to collect the information necessary to make informed decisions. Governments on both sides of the political spectrum, here in Canada and abroad, have used census forms for years to guide their policy decisions. It is absolutely appropriate to ask how any particular question is being used by the government to make decisions on policy. But it is completely irrational to argue that the government has no right to gather any information at all. It is completely rational to question whether the policies of the government are useful or not. But it is irrational to complain about the wasting of our tax dollars, then hamstring the government's ability to deliver programs in an efficient manner. If it were more efficient to gather the info. using other methods, then the government ought to do so. They don't, because it isn't. The question of what programs the government delivers is a political one, to be settled at the ballot box. The question of what information is needed to deliver those programs is a statistical one, to be settled by an appeal to science. Polls taken by Decima and other firms are scientific, even though not mandatory, because they take careful steps to ensure their population sample is representative. But when people are asked to mail back a form, you cannot control that sample population, so it must be mandatory to be reliable. Take a course in stats. to have at least a clue about what you are talking about. You'd find many of the arguments against the long form just disappear when you actually understand it.


Jim in Ottawa
said

I do have two problems with the mandatory census that the compromise put forward by the government does address. One is the issue of Kingston resident Todd Stelmach who did serve jail time for not filling the 2006 census on a matter of personal conscience. The second is the reported case that is still under investigation which suggests that self-identified Francophones living outside of Quebec were encouraged to answer the 2006 census in such a way that community leaders believed would encourage more funding for causes of interest to those communities. I do believe that these issues do constitute an abuse of state power that the voluntary census addresses.


Kim
said

Conservatives of all types, nationalities, moral suasion's, and personalities have an inherent flaw in their thinking patterns; namely, they are not open to new ideas, or thinking outside the box for new solutions to old and tiresome problems, or changing demographics - simply because they are just too "conservative" to think in that way. As a result they are error prone in analysis, and the inability to consider new strategies, or able to properly appreciate the various tried and true methodologies (like, for example, the census info) in standard use. This does not make for general good governance within a democracy. It is often only after they are voted out of power that the real actuality of their flawed thinking and policies manifests itself on the relevant society. In this case, Mr. Clement should be grilled very long and very hard.


Michael
said

The government wants to dictate what being a Canadian is, they don't want that muddled with facts about Canadains from Canadians.


Luc from Carp
said

The long form is a relic of the past that has long since been overtaken by modern polling techniques that give you data that is days old as opposed to years old. Being a government agency filled with bureaucrats, Stats Can continues to dutifully compile data that no longer means anything to a normal human being, without ever wondering if they are still relevant.


WeLoveCanada
said

Ivan Fellegi said it very well - no citizens were ever charged in his tenure of decades. Do you really believe that everyone tells StatCan the whole truth out of the hundreds and thousands of forms? If we believe StatCan is competent in catching those who lied, we should also believe that fining is never enforced. It seems it is not a bad thing to scrap a bad rule.


Sick Boy, Ottawa
said

Why don't we make the payment of taxes voluntary as well. If we are going to make decisions relevant to social programs, etc. with unreliable information, then we might as well pay for them with monopoly money too!It would also be interesting if all Canadians voluntarily opted not to fill out their forms in 2011.Lots of verbal diarrhoea from you, Prof. Pye Chartt, but I doubt that anybody really enjoys your comments more than you do....although I will give you full marks for vocabulary, syntax, and logical progression.


Blake
said

Nothing stopping anyone filling out the wrong information either like I did hahaha.

You want to ensure your privacy stays intact (somewhat) lie on the reports.

How can they prove you lied anyway?

Took me 2 mintues to fill out mine.

Government = corruption

My wife asked me why I didn't vote for Harper. I told her. I don't vote for anyone that looks like someone I picked on in school.


Luc from Carp
said

People dislike changes and distrust governments. Any government proposal that changes the status quo will be opposed instinctively, without any attempt at rational thought on the subject. Liberals and NDP parties have long understood that most Canadians do not think for themselves and are thus easily influenced when it comes to issues like this. Why else would anyone oppose a proposal that is LESS intrusive???


gerald bryant
said

Some Canadian adults are acting like children over this census change. ' Mommy, Johnny next door got a long one. How come I got only a short one. No fair. Mommy, I want a long one, and make the answers compulsory and force me to answer or I will be sent to my room. Mommy !!


Niagara George
said

Tony has been to the neoCon School of Smooth Talking. He slmost sounded as if he knew what he was talking about and that he understood there could be an opposing view. Mind you he is still completely wrong. The USA tried the voluntary census in the early 1990's. They learned it was a mistake and that the data gathered from those surveys (not censuses) was a waste of time and money. They've gone back to the mandatory census.Surveys have their place, but the census is a unique gathering of information that must be mandatory if it is to have any validity. If the concept is new to you, try an online search for a second year university satistics course. I think Tony missed that one.If the questions need changes, so be it. If the penalties (which have NEVER been used) need adjustment, then do it. Just don't make it voluntary.Now Stats Can says the voluntary form will be sent to twice as many people as the mandatory was sent to. Many more millions of our hard-earned tax dollars being spent so King Steve can justify the changes he thought would be embraced by his right-wing friends, but even many of them are admitting the error of his ways.If you get the form, don't complete it. Let's save money by giving them fewer completed forms to read.They already know, from years of voluntary surveys, that the well-to-do, people on welfare, aboriginals, ethnic minorities and those with reading difficulties will not complete the voluntary form. Since the results will be skewed to the middle class, why don't we refuse to do it as well.


Ryan (Alias)
said

I could care less whether it's the long form or the short form. If I'm fortunate to receive one, it'll be filled out with one lie after another. I mean if politicians can do it, why can't I?


GHW
said

Good job Harper! Next up the useless duck hunter gun registry.


Marg Alberta
said

We need a government that uses reasoning to make decisions. We seem to have one that likes to use religious and political ideology. This latest gaff is not just an embarrassment, it threatens to seriously undermine the effectiveness of government and corporate policy making.


cdouglas
said

The Harper Government listens to noone. Harper is nothing but a dictator.


Doug # BC
said

Let me see if I have this right.Liberals and left wingers accuse Harper of being a dictator,yet they still support using the treat of jail and fines to force people to divulge information that they consider intrusive and private.All this,while the social engineers want us to believe they speak for,and defend "ordinary Canadians". Yea.Right. It's lunacy to see how socialists go to the ends of the earth to defend the rights of criminals, terrorits,thugs,drug dealers,and almost every other narrow special interest group,but when it comes to the hard working,law abiding citizens of Canada,we get the "let them eat cake" treatment. I'm inclined to go with Tony Clement on this.I see those who favour keeping the long form mandatory are now defending it by saying "no one has been jailed for refusing to fill out the long form".If that is so,then take the threats out of the legislation.If it's a law that is never enforced anyway,get rid of it.It's absurd to suggest yu support a mandatory anything if you don't also support the sanctions imposed on those who simply refuse to comply.And trust me,I am finished complying on this one.And I don't give a fat rats behind about what number crunchers, statisticians,socila engineers,and navel gazers think about anything. Liberals need to "man up" on this.If they want to enforce the "mandatory",they cannot distance themselves from the sanctions.If they offer to drop the legal threats,then the system is essentially voluntary.They cannot have it both ways.Mandatory,but no penalties?? What's all that about?? You are either willing to jail and fine us,or you support voluntary.Those are the only options available.Pick one.But remember who it was who said "the government has no business in the bedrooms of Canadians".I can assure you, it was not A Conservative.


Terry form the Shwa
said

Not only is the collection of this data on the long form oppresive so is its use. Once it is tabulated various government and NGO causes are then bashed over our heads using this bogus info as evidence of its necessity i.e. paying women for housework either through direct payment or through more generous pension provisions. And this is one of many pet causes that is being encouraged by the census. Equally as bad is the government ignoring unpleasant results from the census i.e. commute times, etc. would indicate Toronto needs more roads to expedite traffic. I believe that the powers to be in Tornto have effectively said it doesn't matter NO new raods will be built. And, is not the census used to determine electoral boundaries? Why does PEI have 4 MPs and Quebec have 75 when they don't deserve anywhere near that number and BC and Alberta are grossly under represented?


Rob
said

I have had rude Stats Canada try to force themselves on me on the phone, when I was heading for work. They are like telemarketers, that have the right to jail you. This is wrong, Stats Canada has bullied regular Canadians for years, time for them to be downsized.


oddie
said

seems to me like we answer all the government needs to know on our income tax forms and anything else not needed.
don't think what i have in my house is anyones business


pm
said

I will fill out the form BUT I will not details of my private life.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

Perhaps, along with those knuckleheads who frantically argue that the long-form census (especially in its current evolved state) is to the municipal "development" of Canada what oxygen is to humans (a laughable assertion that demonstrates the government-driven brainwashing of citizens to believe that each question contained therein is of critical and monumental value, and can't be replaced with equal information garnered by the private sector via contracted survey), we'll be treated to another confused "libertarian" insisting that the government's intrusive mission, supported by formal incarceration, is entirely valid. Hilarious.


NS
said

Carl summed up perfectly. The short cenus form is more than enough information for the goverment. If the private industry wants more stats, let them pay for a private cenus. Enough is enough, next we will have to live in glass houses so we can be watched by the goverment.


lc
said

Don't agree with most of what this government is about but with them here.Much more concerned with national id cards and nude scanners at the airports but in this day and age of government data mining take any small victory no matter how irrelevant.


Robert
said

I didn't get threatened over the census. I got threatened over the labor survey. I told them I would not tell them my salary, as it was none of their business. Certainly not someone that shows up on my doorstep unannounced. I said it was stupid for me to have to tell people my personal info when they have a database full, based on my T4 information. They claimed they could not share between taxation and their dept. That is just dumb. Put in a request for a set of records randomly selected, and remove all names and SINs. You get your random sample and only have to collect once. I argued with the person on my doorstep, on the phone numerous times. I had the manager send me a threatening letter which **DID** include a copy of the laws indicating jail for not participating. I then had some one else call weeks later, and said I didn't have to give salary. I said where was this all along? She claimed that it was a mis-understanding. By who the manager? Ridiculous. Proponents for data collection claim jail is never used. But it is threatened. They are lying.


Larry King
said

Prof. Pye Chartt said "...Canada's Chief statistician, Munir Sheikh, was as a petty, partisan, unproductive, juvenile, and foolish political move for a ranking civil servant" >> Any point you might ever try to make is always lost when you lower yourself to name calling. Sad.


Pete Sake
said

This is a huge error on the part of the gov't, and nothing that the gov't has said so far on the issue should satisfy any clear thinking citizen. Perhaps there is a reason to scrap the mandatory long-form census. This is the kind of question that would require study, and the insights of experts on statistics, privacy, ethics, etc. This gov't did not consult and/or rejected expert knowledge, and simply made the decision on their own for reasons that it claims involves a 'balancing' of costs and benefits. But how on earth does the gov't know these costs and benefits? They aren't statisticians. They have not surveyed the public's opinion. They have not undertaken a transparent and comprehensive study of the issue. They simply made a decision, and have been scrambling to justify it. What's worse is that it was a non-issue for 99% of the population. Up until now, I've thought the accusations that Harper was a bit tyrannical were overstated. This whole fiasco has completely changed my mind; now he reminds me of 'King' Ralph Klein, who used to make unilateral decisions and dismiss all opposition with dictatorial arrogance. Harper, quit destroying Canada, I hope that the citizens hold you to account on this.


Rick in NB, Ste Marie
said

@ Bill in BC, so you stand behind Clement on this one. Just last week he said StatsCan advised that the new reformed conservatives dump the long form. So, are you standing behind Clements or his deceptions? And could you explain how any survey can be " invasive " ? Armies, germs and insects can invade, questions can only intrude.


Larry King
said

Collecting data makes us informed. Informed people don't vote Conservative. Therefore, Conservatives want to collect less data.That's all this comes down to in the end.


Nolan Moore
said

I understand both sides. The stats society has valid points such as gathering unbiased and random data. Volunteering information, some segments of the market may not complete it while others may fill in false information. So the need, if there is one would be to gather complete truthful info for future descsions. On the other hand I agree with the gov't not making it mandatory. I havent seen the form but from my understanding, why does the gov't need to know i have a 4 piece and a 5 piece bathroom and a 2 piece washroom? Maybe do some more home work on how to gather that information and how it can be used. Canada is the country of compromise, lets find one. No need to make this political.


Ian
said

Here is an easy solution that should make everyone or at least most happy. Scrap the census form as it is known today and consolidate the information provided in your annual income tax return. Will those forms require modification, yes they will but what additional information is required can be gathered in one application and take away the headaches and fear of a census form. I agree that the census as it is known today is far too comprehensive and perhaps invasive, however the country does need certain information for various reasons.


Richard in Ontario
said

@David Ottawa
I suppose we need the Liberals back in so we can keep the census and they can then determine how best to steal our tax money and it will also give them an idea on how best to get it to their supporters. This wouldn't happen to be David McGuinty posting here would it?


simon
said

They now want to "BALANCE THE NEED FOR DATA" .... whatever that means. I suggest they cancel their holidays and get back to work to figure this one out. Remember what they did last winter? They Prorogued Parliament so that they could "RECALIBRATE THE BUDGET" .... whatever that meant. Perhaps this government needs to be turned into HISTORICAL STATISCICS!!!!


Marion in the Creek
said

Michael Campbell said he's been forced to fill it out 3 out of 4 times under threat if failing to comply. Has anyone ever called the government's bluff on this? Has anyone every been fined, or jailed, for not filling out the census form? Now that would be newsworthy, no? This back and forth, long or short form is just another waste of our valuable money and the government's valuable time!


Sue
said

Government departments, private companies, and branches of industry don't have the information they need to implement policies, not just social policies, economic as well and to make informed business decisions. And we're not talking about your personal information, you paranoid conservative conspiracy theorist, we're talking about compiled statistics that track nation-wide trends in the way people live and work, just like any successful marketing firm does - the only difference being that Stats Can is regulated and can be trusted with information that private firms can't, and they have the scope and resources to undertake these surveys at a level that no firm could, and they must be undertaken on such a large scale if information is to be accurate. I've read that polls show people with more education are more inclined to think that the mandatory long form is necessary. Makes sense - if you haven't spent much time in the world of academia, you probably don't appreciate the value of fancy-learnin' things like numbers and information. You also probably don't understand how business/industry leaders and gov't officials make decisions, and why they can't make these decisions in the dark. We need the long form because the information on it will facilitate economic activity. You have a very partisan understanding of the economy - you think it has to be either no gov't or all gov't. Truth is, in any market economy, the gov't provides valuable services (ie protection of private property by law) that are necessary for the economy to function.


Portes
said

WendyRemember ad scam, that's all I have to say


Dave in Calgary
said

This is about good government versus ideology. This action put ideology in front advice from all the experts on good governance. What is next?


J
said

I am not in to politics much.

I was surprised to learn about the threat of fines and jail time for not filing out a census form. Seems very Nazi like to me. That Michael Campbell comment below sounds good,have the long one voluntary and pay people like $20 or something.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

By acknowledging that the long-form census, indeed, embodies issues, and that certain personal information is superfluous, along with the fact that the governing Act needlessly upholds jail time for failure to answer a de facto questionnaire, the intelligent, levelheaded, non-partisan advisement of the National Statistics Council has already supported the prescriptive rationale behind the Conservative government's position. (Moreover, the independent Council effectively confirmed that the public resignation of Statistic Canada's Chief statistician, Munir Sheikh, was as a petty, partisan, unproductive, juvenile, and foolish political move for a ranking civil servant. Enjoy the comforting embrace of Canada's most notable reject, Michael Ignatieff, sir.) Ultimately, amidst all the whining over the alleged "importance" of the long-form census, I have yet to read ANYTHING that indicates, SPECIFICALLY, what the "loss" would/will be. Vague, sanctimonious, erudite, theorizing, windbags have yielded empty lectures that stand contradicted by many in academia (ie. Prof. Frank Atkins, University of Calgary, Economics ). It's simply another case of self-interested bureaucratic gatherers and public/private users of scattered information desperately defending their turf and free practice. Even arguments having to do with "voluntary" disclosure are, in fact, in sharp dispute. Plenty of fuss; minimal substance.


Ken
said

I'm about as conservative as one can get, but this decision to scrap the long census form is just plain stupid. Any eighth-grader who was paying attention in math class should know that voluntary responses aren't nearly as accurate as a mandatory random sampling.


Wendy
said

So let me get this straight, from the Clements own account this will actually cost taxpayers more money to manage and at the end of the day the data the government receives to manage programs will be less reliable. I don't see how anyone could argue with this brilliant plan, insert sound of rolling eyes.


Shawn, Ottawa
said

David from Ottawa must be David McGuinty. Political parties aside, does anyone actually care about this?


Steve
said

It's time we had a government that made policy based on reasoning, rather than on religious ideology. They are such an embarrassment.


Victorian Kate
said

I filled out the long form two years ago. I found it demanded too much information that is irrelevant to formulating government policy. It has always been my understanding that the census is supposed to answer demographic questions for the purpose of making policy. So, answer me this: why did the long form contain marketing questions, ask me about my sexual preference, what kind of car I have, how many pets i have, how many rooms in my home, whether my grandparents are living, if I have ever been sexually assaulted or harrassed? Exactly WHAT does this have to do with a national census? While I don't agree often witht he conservatives, i do agree with them on this one.


Portes
said

David OttawaYou sure your name is not McGuintyAnd Iggy is? Don't make me laugh. we don't need more government in our lives, we have enough already. Sick and tired of government telling us what to do. The less they know the better for all of us. Any agency that need this info let them pay for it themselvesSimple solution use the tax form, they already have that question on there . Government knows too much, even where we travel and what we do, do you Liberals want them to know more?


Steve in wildrose country
said

Governments demand far to much information from citizens as it is. Big government needs to be kept out of our lives. I can only cheer this move by a government that is willing to actually limit itself.


Carl
said

Here's another way the opposition contradicts itself on this issue: They say good data can only be collected by making the census mandatory. Yet, every political party and public policy think-tank in the country spends lots of money on polls and surveys that are completely voluntary. Since nobody is forced to reply to these public opinion polls, does that mean none of the opinion polls we constantly read about in the media are acccurate? Does this mean the Liberals themselves are using inaccurate polling data to determine their policies and strategies?


RK in MB
said

Facts? You want facts? What the heck are you going to do with facts? They are not as reliable as intuition. I can prove that, but not with facts, only my intuition. My intuition tells me that my intuition is accurate. That, I provide as proof!When is Harper going to introduce those "Keystone Kops" uniforms for all Cabinet Ministers? I'll start watching Question Period when that happens. Until then, they are just fools without intellect. Once they get the uniforms they are transformed to comedic geniuses!!I hope Harper reads this and takes my idea and runs with it. That would be intuitive, for him at least.


Michael Campbell
said

$25 million to promote the long census form? Why not just offer payment to those who agree to fill it out? I expect it would be cheaper. My own experience, having by "random?" forced to fill out the long form 3 out of the past 4 times, left me angered that under threat of fines and or imprisonment should I refuse to comply.I give thumbs up to the conservatives for their decision to scrap this invasion of privacy!


David Ottawa
said

Good data is required to run a good government. Harper is not good government.


Bill in BC
said

The long form is far too invasive and should not be part of the national census. The short form fulfills all the requirements of the the census and should be the only form that Canadians need to fill out. I stand with Mr. Clement on this one.


Carl
said

The opposition contradicts itself on this issue. They argue that the form should remain mandatory because nobody is ever punished for refusing to respond to it anyway. If that is true, then we should be asking what is the purpose of continuing to pretend the census is mandatory. If it is not being enforced anyway, then it is in reality already voluntary. One further point: Why should the government know my religion or ethnicity anyway? What public policy objective depends on this knowledge? In an egalitarian, non-discriminatory society, the race, ethnicity and religion of citizens should have no bearing whatsoever on any public policy decision. All the information that the government truly needs to make good public policy is on the short census form. The long form should be abolished completely.


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