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Helena Guergis answers a question in the House of Commons on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, on April 1, 2010. (Sean Kilpatrick / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Former Conservative MP Rahim Jaffer arrives with his wife Conservative MP Helena Guergis and Helena's niece Hanna Brayford in this Oct. 30, 2008 photo in Ottawa. (Ryan Remiorz / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Patrick Glemaud, Rahim Jaffer's business partner at Green Power Generation Corp., speaks with CTV's Power Play in Ottawa, on Tuesday, April 13, 2010.

Private investigator source of Guergis allegations

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CTV News Video

CTV National News: Robert Fife with the exclusive
The sequence of events that led the PM to dismiss Helena Guergis from cabinet are beginning to come to light. CTV News has leaned that the allegations came from a private investigator.
CTV News Channel: Jane Taber on the scandal
Rahim Jaffer's business partner, Patrick Glemaud, addressed the lobbying allegations on CTV's Power Play. In the coming weeks, there will likely be calls to hear from others who may be connected to the Guergis case.
Power Play: Patrick Glemaud, Jaffer's partner
A business partner of former Conservative MP Rahim Jaffer says the allegations against his colleague are not based on any facts and says this is simply nothing more than a smear campaign against Jaffer.
Power Play: Martha Hall Findlay and Mike Lake
The Liberal public works critic says in no way are the Grits attempting to smear the name of Patrick Glemaud and says it is necessary to uncover the truth, but a Tory MP says the situation regarding Guergis is not up for public debate and will remain a private matter.
CTV News Channel: Liberal MPs grill the Conservatives
Liberal MPs ask members of the government share more details after Harper asked the RCMP to consider an investigation into former cabinet minister Helena Guergis based on what he called 'serious allegations.'
CTV News Channel: Bloc MPs grill the Conservatives
Bloc MPs ask members of the government share more details after Harper asked the RCMP to consider an investigation into former cabinet minister Helena Guergis based on what he called 'serious allegations.'
CTV News Channel: NDP MPs grill the Conservatives
NDP MPs ask members of the government share more details after Harper asked the RCMP to consider an investigation into former cabinet minister Helena Guergis based on what he called 'serious allegations.'

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Helena Guergis answers a question in the House of Commons on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, on April 1, 2010. (Sean Kilpatrick / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Former Conservative MP Rahim Jaffer arrives with his wife Conservative MP Helena Guergis and Helena's niece Hanna Brayford in this Oct. 30, 2008 photo in Ottawa. (Ryan Remiorz / THE CANADIAN PRESS) Patrick Glemaud, Rahim Jaffer's business partner at Green Power Generation Corp., speaks with CTV's Power Play in Ottawa, on Tuesday, April 13, 2010.

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Helena Guergis answers a question in the House of Commons on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, on April 1, 2010. (Sean Kilpatrick / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

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Date: Tue. Apr. 13 2010 10:05 PM ET

The mysterious third party who uncovered serious allegations that led Prime Minister Stephen Harper to toss MP Helena Guergis out of caucus is a private investigator, CTV News has learned.

Police sources say the licensed private eye contacted a Conservative Party lawyer in Toronto, and expressed concern about a potential threat of blackmail arising from allegations about the purchase and use of drugs.

It has not been confirmed who may have purchased or used the drugs in question, or who may have been prone to blackmail.

When the lawyer received the information, he immediately alerted the prime minister.

Guergis was ejected from the Conservative caucus last week. Harper asked the RCMP to consider an investigation based on what he called "serious allegations." The substance of those allegations remains a mystery.

On Monday, Transport Minister John Baird said the allegations "came forward from a third party." He said the alleged misdoings "do not involve any minister, any MP, any senator, or for that matter any government employee."

Guergis email to CTV

Guergis has maintained any allegations against her are "baseless."

In an email to CTV, Guergis said she is unable to fully answer questions regarding the allegations against her at this time.

"I'm sure you can appreciate it is very difficult to answer allegations based on innuendo from anonymous sources. Nevertheless, I intend to defend myself to the fullest extent to ensure that the record is set straight," Guergis wrote.

"What I can tell you is that as soon as I heard the Prime Minister had referred certain matters to the RCMP and the Ethics Commissioner I contacted both parties to offer my full cooperation. The Ethics Commissioner has already said she does not have any information to warrant an investigation and I'm still awaiting an answer from the RCMP. Because this is now in the hands of the police I have retained legal counsel."

The private eye was investigating businessman Nazim Gillani and Mike Mihelic, a former Toronto Argonaut who works for Gillani. Both men are facing fraud charges on an unrelated matter.

Gillani has claimed to his associates that Jaffer, who is a partner in green energy consulting firm Green Power Generation Corp., could give them special access to the Prime Minister's Office, a claim that Harper has refuted.

Patrick Glemaud, Jaffer's partner at GPG, said his company has never lobbied government on behalf of Gillani.

Glemaud said Tuesday that while he had met on two occasions Gillani, his company was only asked to look into whether a specific green technology would be viable in the current marketplace.

"There was no business transaction (to) ever take place between GPG and Mr. Nazim Gillani or his company," Glemaud told CTV's Power Play. "There was no exchange of funds, there was no contract whatsoever, there was no lobbying activities taking place by GPG on behalf of any clients whatsoever."

Glemaud's comments were in response to a letter the Liberals sent Monday to the federal lobbying commissioner, asking her to investigate Jaffer's business dealings.

In the letter, Liberal MP Marlene Jennings asked Lobbying Commissioner Karen Shepherd to launch an investigation "into possible violations of the Lobbying Act involving GPG -- Green Power Generation Corp and its representatives."

According to an article published April 8 in the Toronto Star, Jaffer told a group of business associates, including Gillani, during a meeting last September that he could help them obtain government funds for business projects. In particular, he allegedly said he had access to "a green fund."

The government denies Jaffer has any special access to government or government funds.

Glemaud said Tuesday that the Liberal Party's allegations against him, Jaffer and their company are "untruthful," and said "at no time did we submit a government grant application whatsoever on behalf of anyone."

Glemaud also denied that Jaffer ever used a government office to conduct business on behalf of GPG.

Glemaud accused the Liberals of launching a smear campaign against him, but also said he would send his own letter to the lobbying commissioner to say he would co-operate with any investigation she may launch.

Ethics commissioner won't investigate Guergis allegations

Earlier Monday, the Commons ethics commissioner said she will not investigate former cabinet minister Helena Guergis, Jaffer's wife, based on allegations forwarded by the PMO.

Mary Dawson said Tuesday that based on the information she has, she's not in a position to proceed with an inquiry.

She offered no further details because of privacy concerns.

Dawson noted that if the RCMP begins an investigation, as Prime Minister Stephen Harper has requested, her office would be required to suspend its own investigation anyway. But she added she would continue to monitor the situation.

The reviews normally conducted by Dawson's office fall under either the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons or the Conflict of Interest Act.

Opposition reaction

During question period in the House of Commons Tuesday, NDP Leader Jack Layton renewed the opposition parties' calls for specific details about the allegations that got Guergis kicked out of caucus.

"Here's the so-called tough-on-crime prime minister who won't even tell Canadians why he's called the cops on one of his own," Layton said. "Why are the Conservatives afraid to tell Canadians the truth?"

Conservative MP Mike Lake, parliamentary secretary to the industry minister, defended the government's silence on the issue.

"It would be completely irresponsible for the Prime Minister's Office to put forward allegations out for public debate," Lake told Power Play. "It would be completely unfair to the parties involved, you wouldn't do that."

Liberal MP Martha Hall Findlay said Canadians have the right to know "if rules have been broken."

"The truth needs to be found," Findlay told Power Play.

Comments are now closed for this story

Lorne
said

I agree with "Scott's" post about disagreement on issues because of partisan politics.Partisan politics should be left out on this forum, as the issue is about a cabinet minister who is under investigation for her actions while in high profile cabinet post.However, the posters on this topic should not have their credibility questioned, just because they chose not to enter politics. Politicians chose their vocation and from what I've seen so far, the majority of those politicians appear to be in this vocation, for their own personal gain. Their images are so tarnished, that it's no wonder people are fed up with all the political parties.


Jason Daniel Baker, Toronto
said

Still much ado about nothing from what I can see. Just because there is smoke does not mean there is fire.This is a spaghetti attempt at scandal - throw stuff at a wall and see if it sticks.The only charges that have been laid were against Jaffer and that was resolved with a small fine.People were crying foul about the mortgage agreement Jaffer and Guergis got. Jaffer has his parliamentary pension and Guergis has almost qualified for hers. A bank knows when someone is solvent and fawns over such people who apply for loans and mortgages. I wonder how many other veteran MPs and senators from other parties have gotten the same kind of deal. I bet it is a lot.The silliest complaint is over Guergis claiming running shoes as a campaign expense. Anyone who has run for office knows that running shoes are a necessity going door to door.Now the ethics commish has said she won't touch any of it.People might not like some of the things they have seen or heard but we are a long way from seeing illegality on the part of, or connected to Guergis' conduct as a minister.Am I the only one wondering if this is intolerance against an interracial couple?


craig in burnaby bc
said

Hey Paul de Toronto .. Last poll had the "Cons" 10 points up so keep dreaming about your Toronto liberal party getting back in anytime soon..


Maggie, Toronto
said

Dear "Two Cents Ottawa":Please accept my sincere condolences for the fact that you were born so poorly-endowed. Bashing women won't help your situation, but growing a brain will!


Jolene, PEI
said

Has Guergis ever apologized for her comments to Prince Edward Islanders directly? I know she did the "sorry for my actions" type of apology to the media, but has she ever given a heart-felt apology to Islanders? You see, Islanders are very forgiving people and I believe Guergis could have nipped this thing in the bud if she had only taken the time to write a couple of apologetic letters to PEI's 2 major newspapers. From the beginning, her arrogance was on display, she believed she was untouchable, and she never truly understood how to handle this situation. Perhaps she has hung around Harper too long and his style has rubbed off on her. Hope Guergis and her husband have season passes for the unemployment line!


Bob,Calgary
said

Even Canada's national newspaper the Globe and Mail says that Harper has acted properly in this situation and that he cannot reveal details of the "alledged" wrongdoing. They also say that it is the RCMP's responsibility to explain what the possible charges are or are not. I tend to agree with their editorial opinion. Let's just calm down and stop hurling invective at either the Cons or the Fibs depending on your particular prejudice and allow the investigation to take it's course.

Alex (Toronto)
said

The job of the Ethics Commissioner is to investigate issues in a non-political way, to save Parliament time and inconvenience. But if the Ethics Commissioner can't do the job, a parliamentary committee can. It's really hard to imagine what kind of behavior might fall within the purview of the Ethics Commissioner and still be protected by privacy. This is fishy, and a non-report just invites journalists to keep digging.


Laura
said

I'm not getting why some posters are blaming the media for this debacle. It looks like the person on the witch hunt might be Harper....he is the one that called for two investigations, with one trumping the other. Stephen Stephen Stephen, process, process, process. As for the media, keep up the good work and may those spidey senses keep tingling.


Jon in SK
said

I would prefer to wait for all the information to come out before making up my mind about HG. However, if this investigation is dragged out long enough, and it will be, Ms. Geurgis will receive her golden pension (July 2010). I think THAT would be a huge slap in the face to tax-payers right across the country. If she's found guilty of criminal behavior NO PENSION and certainly no sitting in the HOC as an independant MP.


Wendy
said

@Prof Pye chart You must feel threatened by Ignatieff, you comments rarely talk about the issue in the article & you never seem to have much to say about Harper. Face it your ship is sinking & the rats are starting to come to the surface. The liberals only need to sit back & watch Harper's cons self destruct. The mess Harper made of the economy should start to show soon too, his incompetence will shine brightly & his ship will sink to the bottom. You don't have to feel ashamed you voted in these clowns, we all make mistakes. We will welcome you with open arms. Have a happy day!


Joyce
said

Just wanted to point out to Jenn; It is not deformation of character, but defamation of character, just in case you were not aware of the proper wording. I have to agree, this case is being investigated by the RCMP, and acoording to Canadian Law, one is INNOCENT with some commenters, who have already stated there is an RCMP investigation and one INNOCENT , UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.I know capital letters are no tsupposed to be in a comment, but with many comments here, the person[s] in question are already guilty, and the RCMP has not even wrapped up it's investigation. I would hope if this happened to anyone of us, the Canadian Law would be respected also.I feel I needed to comment on this, no one pushed me into this as this is of my own accord, as I have seen many comments which have not been in line due to the investigation which is now taking place by the RCMP.


Scott in Abbotsford BC
said

I am sick of this woman and her husband... Just go away will ya!!! And this charade by Harper is dispicable, to say in one breath that there is serious allegations, then in another that it doesn't concern any ministers, mp's or government employees when he just fired one of his own ministers is a joke... Now the ethics comissioner won't investigate it, to me something is wrong and we are just being set up for some type of political move by the Conservatives... Why else are they hiding the truth? It just doesn't make sense... I am back in the Liberal camp now, I've had enough of Harper and his secret society stuff... I want my government to act like grown ups, I thought this was going to happen under Harper but he clearly isn't able to make himself above these petty little political moves... Conservatives, find a new leader and I will review my outlook, until then, this is one vote who has moved on...


John from Saskatoon
said

This is funny. We don't have to wait for Iggy to call the Ethics commisioner a Conservative hack. You posters have done it for him. You all thought it was a great idea to refer it to her but now that you don't like the answer, she's involved in a cover up. Get real.If the RCMP clear Geurgis then they are all Conservatives taking part in a cover up. Whaa whaa whaa. Did you all notice the latest polls have the Tories up by 10 points. I don't think the smear campains are working for you guys. Why don't you try policy for once. I know. You guys would be back even further in the polls if you tried that.


Scott Johnson
said

It seems that many of those who post on this site have such a palpable hatred of their respective politically opposing parties that it borders on aggressive prejudice. If one garners so much glee from another's fall from grace, it speaks volumes about their character. Opposing political positions aside, let's not forget that we all are fallible, make poor decisions and have certainly fallen short of the glorious image we hold of ourselves. Let those of us who have not fallen short of perfection cast the first stone. Political service is a selfless act, a commitment to public service, and in a great majority of instances, an effort to act in such a way that one feels they can facilitate change for the better. I would encourage all those consummate armchair politicians and pundits to guard what they wish to say. I wonder how you would fare if you were put under the collective scrutiny of the mass media, political opponents and the general public at large. Everyone is entitled to due process. One can express political opposing views and disagree on principle and issues without engaging in repugnant distain and disrespect for your political adversaries. Such degrading , disrespectful and vicious overtones only serve to reflect poorly on your credibility, not those that have chosen political service as a vocation.


I'm_tired_of_canadian_politics
said

Wow, what is Harper hiding eh? Well let me just say say that if PM Harper was hiding anything would he have called in the RCMP almost as soon as he heard about new information? Probably not. People are so dumb when that are full of hate and venom that it becomes the only thing that comes out of a lot of peoples mouths over common sense!


L
said

Oh Pat from the GTA, I take it you didn't read any of the comments yesterday. Once the matter is turned over to the RCMP Harper cannot say anything or it may impede the investigation. As well, without proof of the allegations, if Harper starts spouting off about them, he could be accused of libel or defamation if these things turn out to be baseless. Let the RCMP do their job, once their investigation is done the truth will come out. As for the Ethics Commissioner, they have a restrictive mandate, if the information does not fall within this mandate they cannot investigate, if they did its overstepping their bounds and wasting taxpayers money. If Harper were to talk about unsubstantiated information he received, isn't that unethical? Spreading malicious lies about anyone, conservative, liberal, ndp or just regular people, is unprofessional, unethical and plain wrong. Without solid proof (which is what the RCMP will look for), nothing should be said, if it is its just rumor and nothing more.


Elias Nasrallah
said

Do people not consider the fact that if Guergis is under investigation, and the RCMP are involved, maybe the P.M is not able to talk pending the investigation? There was a reason for Mr. Harper to call the RCMP and it is being dealt with. Talking about what the charges are may not be good for the investigation. The truth will come out and justice will be served.I'm still waiting for the Liberals to tell us where the Addscam money went? Who was involved? The Liberals have not answered these questions since the whole Addscam affair started. They should be one to talk.


TheOtherLowellInBC
said

Toi Fed Up in Calgary. Regarding your comment about milking negative news stories about the conservatives. Why do you think there is so many negative news stories. The news media aren't making them up. They are based on the activities of members of the conservative party. Maybe you should be asking the question of your own party members on why they don't act a little more professional and honest.


Kris D.
said

@Prof. Pye Chartt… Hey! I was just wondering where you’re usual anti Liberal rant was, you’re right on cue man! So according to your post, you think PM Harper was wrong to boot her from cabinet, boot her from the Conservative Party and to ask the RCMP to investigate the “serious allegations” against her and her hubby? Look, we all know you hate Ignatieff and all things liberal but why are you in such disagreement with our PM on this issue? ... I find it strange that you support Guergis on this. PS: Try reading the article before posting your comments it may help you stay focused on the subject at hand...


Self-serving politicians all way from PMO!!
said

All this shows me is that those politicians are self-serving all way from PMO! Criminal investigation is a serious as ADSCAM.... Yet, Liberal seem to be very open book about it and they cleaned it up right away in reasonable way. It seems that Conservative are not following this example because they are self-serving politician as many politicians of all colour strips in house.CLEAN THEM UP! Stop these so-called self-serving politicians and better off we will be.......


Jenn
said

Seriously? While I am no fan of this former MP or her husband, I trail by media is not fair to anyone. Anyone can say there are allegations against anyone. But if there is NO MERRIT to these allegations . The government CAN't say anything until these allegations are checked out. It's called deformation of character and in this country you can still sue for that. Harper did what he could with what he knew for CERTAIN. remnoved her from cacus until it's investigated. If you are still building a case against someone, why would you print the information you have in the media. Are you crazy? Now her husband is another story. He should be hung by his toes. Can't blame a woman for marrying a shady person. There are a lot of marriages out there where one of the spouses are shady......


bill fox
said

the ethics commisioner has no ethics methinks


RJ in Halifax
said

I can't believe all of the "bashing" of the Commissioner and of Stephen Harper. As the lady says, her investigation will automatically be suspended during any investigation by the RCMP. As the PM has requested such an investigation, why don't all of the so-called "experts" let them do their job? On another note, who edits the writers of the articles? In one paragraph, the writer states that there are three investigations, "both" of which involve Jaffer and his wife. Hey, article-writer, which is it - three or two (both)?


paula collins
said

The average person in Canada believes most politicians are there for self serving reasons NOT working on behalf of the people. Why do they get their pensions before the age of 65? Most of them go right back to their private sector jobs after they get the Golden handshake . They should abide by the same rule as the rest of us. They make the whole country look bad.


Two Cents, Ottawa
said

Obviously, if you want a job done properly, you need to hire a man, even if it is the Status of Women portfolio.On the other hand, no one even considers the Staus of Woman portfolio seriously anyways. It was only created to pay lip service to perceived needs of women - so maybe Guergis was the right minister to select for it.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

Still a "story" without facts; yet, allegations are the wind beneath the wings of both the media and the Opposition. (Too desperate and giddy with excitement to wait until the RCMP is finished with its work.) You gotta love Liberal supporters. Suggest to them that their failing savior, Iggy, is PM Harper's greatest asset in maintaining minority control of Canada's parliamentary government and they get all hot and bothered. They're convinced that the route to claiming the Office of the Prime Minister is by calling Mr. Harper a "dictator" and his Conservatives "evil" enough times. Sad. One day, my Liberal friends, you'll finally clue into the fact that your Leader isn't cutting it, and that's why you're going nowhere. Until then, enjoy getting all whipped up over the Guergis/Jaffer "scandal." Bon appetit.


Dusty - Ottawa
said

What a pile of garbage coming from the comments preceding mine. You obviously can't read, the Ethics Commissioners says that she will not investigate because the RCMP have not begun theirs, if any, and because of Privacy concerns, cannot reveal allegations. All of the negative comments preceding, are based on inuendos only.. How would you feel if this were YOU being accused, you might change your tune.


Kris D.
said

If PM Harper booted her from cabinet, the conservative caucus and is stating publicly that there are "serious allegations" against her, they must be pretty bad. I also want to see some sort of investigation into why the serious charges against her hubby dropped by the Ontario government. This story is just begining and it already smells pretty rotten!


Frank Buchan
said

The number of people who want a conspiracy astound me. So far as we know factually, the PM called the RCMP when a serious allegation arose. It is now in their hands, and my experience has been they are a fairly reliable (though imperfect) lot. Their investigation, though, cannot be done in the media for obvious reasons, any more than any other potentially criminal investigation can be.To all those who think life is a reality TV episode, consider that it is not, and consequently things like this are messy and do not wrap up at the end of the hour.For disclosure, I am a conservative, I think something is probably wrong here, and I look forward to the ultimate reckoning this MP gets during the next election.


Albertaboy111
said

This government is just not what I would call open, transparent, respectfull, or honest. How can anyone attach any of those labels to them? How can they disregard so much the base of their entire election platform? I just don't even know anymore. This is what you get when you have people voting for a party regardless of anything else.


Fed Up Calgarian
said

The PMO has done what it needs to do, forward the allegations on to the appropriate parties so that they can investigate. What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? The PM is not going to disclose information without it first being the "truth", he is smart. Michael Ignatieff knows very well there wasn't going to be answers to his questions in question period. He has done nothing for this country but, tried to milk every "negative" news story that comes out about the Conservative party. People need to think before they speak, that goes for the Liberal party, Rahim Jaffer, and those who read too much into sensationalized news stories.


Joe Laval
said

Once again the career political elite leeches are getting away with their hands in the cookie jar reminding the "little people" the masses to "do as I say..but not as I do" while they smirk and give us the finger behind our backs. We should all think about this famous quote: "When the people fear the government there is tyranny....when the government fears the people there is liberty"! Canadians need a "citizen's action committee" to start holding trash accountable when the government elites fail us and give us the finger consistently.


Goldens
said

How many commisioners and commissions do they have eating up my tax dollars that should be going to something that benefits Canada and Canadians? John Wilson Bridgetown NS


Paul de T.O.
said

The worm is turning for the CONS.As I said before, this litany of alleged serious criminality and political mischief are coming home to roost for this CON government. How can the voters in Canada support pigs at the trough and liars? Imagine what egregious damage they would wrought if the CONS had their coveted majority!


Pat from the GTA
said

This story is starting to smell strongly - and the smell is not pleasant. What does Harper know? Why did he call in the RCMP? Why is he refusing to talk on this issue? What is Harper hiding!


SS
said

So who's watching the watchdog? I'm getting so sick of this. Federal, Provincial, Municipal... the same load of crap all over. I'm so sick of these people..... I want my tax money back. (I know, dream on...) :(


Paula
said

Oh my...the "special treatment" Politicians receive when it comes to law...your treatment, then there's their special treatment.Seems we are more American every day, with a 2 Tier System of Law.


Rod
said

No investigation, darn....I kind of enjoyed watching this woman squirm....


dwayne-ottawa
said

so now it begins no inquiry who is hiding what or is there no inquiry because it may lead all the way up the top. do the citizens of canada not deserve to know how much of my tax dollar these guys wasted. sounds fishy i smell election


Niagara George
said

There is nothing to investigate. She and her dear husband are both clear of any wrongdoing. The whole thing is a vicious Liberal plot. They have forced the prime minister to kick this compassionate couple out of the Con circle of friends. Actually Harper is glad, because now he can put a man in as Status of Women minister.


MAL of TO
said

Oh my... a witch hunt by the Canadian media against a prominent female politico.... at least they're consistent as they try to bash all 3 major parties women. So we have a 'not nice' woman, who had dinner with her loud-mouthed fool of a husband, bought a house and allowed her husband to have one of the blackberry phones as [apparently] do a lot of MP's from all 3 parties. Sounds like her issues relate to who she's married to, but at least we have fully destroyed her career and saw to it that she will be selling houses this time next year, I will sleep better tonight. Who's next? Ms. Chow for spending too much time with Jack during his medical issues?


daryn
said

figures, liberals are corrupt, so we try something different, and now the Conservatives, specifically Steven Harper is Corrupt, wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in her ill begot dealings also. SCANDAL another Bill Clinton Cigar incident LOL


Jeremy
said

Let me just say from an "ISLANDER" myself, Looks good on ya. I can honestly say she has had her fair share of chances. No one to blame but herself, and her other half.


bc grll
said

if you have been elected then you can not hide anything! your life is an open book (at least it should be in a RESPONSIBLE government) and to hide facts from the voters should be deemed fraudulent and the legal aspect that follows should be upheld!


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