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By: Michael Stittle, CTV.ca News

Date: Sun. May. 24 2009 2:49 PM ET

James Bond rarely bothers with fake names. When a villain asks his identity, he tells them the truth. He even gives his surname twice.

That's not a good idea if you want a long career in espionage.

Bond could learn a trick or two from some of the commenters on CTV.ca. Like secret agents, they disguise their political talking points to sneak them into totally unrelated stories.

That goes against our policy that comments "should be on-topic." We want to keep discussions on track, to foster meaningful debate on the issue at hand. When people try to get around this rule, they often get rejected.

"Nancy" will tell anyone who listens that Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff is up to no good. Some of our readers would agree, and her thoughts would be more than welcome on a political story. The problem, however, is that they're often directed elsewhere.

Last week, we ran a story about theories involving the "Lost" season finale. It was called "'Lost' piles on even more mysteries." You could submit your theories on the Smoke Monster (Babylonian monster or Egyptian god?), or whether one of the characters was a "charismatic Lucifer." For non-fans, you could complain the show was full of sound and fury.

Here's a comment from "Nancy," who gave her full name as "Nancy - Hoping for a Liberal Twist in new Show."

"The new series is called the Lost Liberals and may be a 'charismatic Lucifer Morningstar' in the flesh, searching for an image make over since losing to a leadership challenge but taking power later by a backroom deal to keep the inspiring real leaders out of the contest," she wrote.

We rejected that comment on the grounds it had nothing to do with the TV series "Lost." Undeterred, she tried again the same day on another non-politics story: "Bad boys don't always get the girl, study finds." It was about an anthropological study on the reproductive success rates of the Waorani people of Ecuador.

This time writing as "Nancy- Guys who just talk tough creep me out," she wrote: "Some guys just try and talk tough and just creep women out. Here's an example - "'To defeat evil, we may have to traffic in evils: indefinite detention of suspects, coercive interrogations, targeted assassinations, even pre-emptive war.'"

If you're wondering about that quote, it's taken from a 2004 opinion piece Michael Ignatieff wrote for The New York Times Magazine. Taken out of context, as "Nancy" has done, it appears he's endorsing the use of Jack-Bauer-style tactics against terrorists.

But the 7,000-word essay, "Lesser Evils," is a warning against such measures. In the paragraph from which Nancy took her quote, Ignatieff writes that such tactics may result in "Pyrrhic victories." He concludes, in part: "Even terrorists, unfortunately, have human rights. We have to respect these because we are fighting a war whose essential prize is preserving the identity of democratic society and preventing it from becoming what terrorists believe it to be."

If you want to read the full article yourself, look to the right of this text under "Web Links." But "Nancy"'s comment, although misleading, was again rejected because it had nothing to do with the story.

That's an easy example. Here's a trickier one: This week many of us awoke to the news that Tori Stafford had been murdered. The little girl had been missing since April 8 in Woodstock, Ont., and police believe she was killed on that same day.

We had comments open on that story. "Alberta Believer" wrote a of couple posts, and like many he spoke about the horrific tragedy of the girl's death. But then he or she took the opportunity to express concerns about abortion and euthanasia.

We rejected that comment, deciding it was the wrong place for a debate about reproductive rights. But "Alberta Believer" also seemed to make the wider criticism that our society sometimes seeks to sanitize death, and whether that might influence the behaviour of a criminal. Was that relevant? Or was that also out of place?

It's a fine line we have to walk. If you think we went too far with "Nancy" and "Alberta Believer," or whether we've been successful at keeping discussions on track, please leave your comments below.

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Comments are now closed for this story

Mary Ann would like to see some happy news vs bull
said
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I agree with sensory Alberta Believer. I believe too, that Tori's family shouldn't have crap like that posted with her story. Give me a break!
And why the constant pro-liberal - anti-conservative spin on everything. we could have Barack Obama as the PM and the media would still be negative towards him. Why can't we highlight the positives in life and in the country vs always about how bad things are? Want to help the country in these tough times, quit the gloom and doom about what colour socks the PM and Iggy wear and talk about how great of a country we live in, and how great the people in this country are? Just my two cents...


Mark
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So, was this written as an apologetic for Mr. Ignatieff?

Seems like CTV focused on right-leaning commenters here despite the fact that there are clearly just as many left-leaning partisans leaving coments on ctv.ca

If that isn't sneaking a talking point in, than what is?


Margaret
said
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No, I don't think you've gone too far at all, and I do think that comments that are defamatory, that indulge in character assassination - should be removed as it's not fair to the politician whose character is being assassinated.

There's one here right now from "Nancy" saying:

"Ignatieff said: I am horribly arrogant and think I have the bloody answer to every question."

(I think this is a lie? If so it shouldn't be allowed.)

" The fact he was flattered as he said when his father count Ignatieff. "

(I can't even understand that one. His father was Russian, his grandfather was the Russian statesman, and whether he was a Count or not, I don't know.)

"After he supported co-ersive interogation, I think we all know that means torture.
When moving into Stornway as seen on his website he joked about the excercise room being the torture equipment."

(This is also a lie - and should be removed. I have said plenty about Harper, but it is either my opinion, or else it's facts. I have not told lies about him.)

"That scares me he finds torture a joke and that the word comes up again with him ... I am concerned that most of the allegations are actions he wrote about in the Lesser Evil saying we must traffic in Evil and our image will also be hurt in the world. "

(This is also a pack of untruths, and aside from that the English and spelling are appalling. )

In conclusion, I don't think you've gone too far. CBC has a function where you can click to report abuse.

MAL
said
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I think one or two of the moderators need to either get off the caffeine or be moved to another job. Too many posts are being censored out that do NOT include inflammatory language, racism [good or bad] or any 'bad' behavior. Free speech does NOT always appear on Canada's Television Network.


Come on and do the Locamotion with me
said
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The self destrucion of the Liberal Party has begun. I can see that train coming and it is right on track.


NDP Fan
said
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The comments should not of been edited. The Liberal leader's idea of a Carbon tax ,hiking the GST raising the alarm on the global warming Crisis, economic Cris, Chalk River Crisis, the EI Crisis and he now I think he has a personal crisis because he could not win his local nomination Paul Martin gave him the riding, he could not win against Dion and he can't hold a candle to Jack Layton who will replace him as the leader of the Official Opposition. Bye bye Iggy.


Doris Surrey PEI
said
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@Barb in Kamploops
I agree Ignatieff is perceived as the "Ice Man" as cold as them come.


Liberal cannot tolerate intolerant Conservatives
said
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As a Liberal I cannot tolerate those intolerant centre of right of centre conservative posts.


Frank Buchan (Vauxhall, Alberta by way of Ontario)
said
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The idea of not posting comments that stray off-topic is a good one, but one has to wonder whose filter is determining "off-topic."

Here, for example, after the apologising tone of the Ignatieff defence, would any of a dozen references to his historical opinions (many of them frighteningly Republican) fit?

Unlike the weekly "what you had to say comments" stories, this one actually isn't about what we (the readers) had to say, but rather why censoring of comments is done. Except, this story reveals isn't about that at all; it's apparently about raising a defence of Michael Ignatieff, which is then validated by using comments that were never published in the first place. Isn't that an ironic proof of off-topic? Was it meant to be?


Barb Kamploops: Iggy books no Chick Flicks
said
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From Ignatieff's own website on his pubished works.

- A Just Measure of Pain
- Bood and belonging
- Scar Tissue
- The needs of strangers
- Virtual War
- The Lesser Evil

Pain, Blood and War seem to be a very common theme with this man.
With all do respect to Mr Ignatieff none of his books are going to be made into chick flicks. They all seem a bit cold.




Sue Timmons
said
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Conservative attack ads show Ignatieff speaking its really Ignatieff attacking himself.

Nancy's comments are right on.


Adam & Steve Rosemont
said
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I am glad Mr Michael Ignatieff wrote a book before an election so we can see how much he always loved Canada.


Emmy in Manitoba
said
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I do not envy your job of having to sift through nonsense and personal agendas. Thank you for doing a terrific job of it, though. Comments about abortion and euthanasia following the Tori Stafford case would be no more appropriate than PETA's hissy fit last year following the slaying of Tim McLean. It's sad and utterly infuriating that certain people are always ready to dispense personal opinions, especially the moral/religious dogma. These are usually the same people who confuse freedom of expression with being so obnoxiously self-centered that they insist on displaying their agenda at all times. Sure, they are entitled to an opinion, but I am entitled to not being exposed to it.
Thank you for catching and weeding out Alberta Believer's comment. I probably would have furious if I saw it online.


Dunny from Manotick
said
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Sorry but I don't believe that you follow the rules that you put forth. Perhaps that's just because I normally have a conservative point of view and often find my submissions don't make it. I also question where you happen to place comments because I find that liberal points of view are most often placed right at the top of the list of comments or the very last comment where they get the most prominence. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive.

In any case I often read all the comments if I have an interest in the topic and almost without exception it gives me something to think about. I too would agree that all articles should provide a comments section. Not providing one is also a form of censorship.




Gord. Robson, Nova Scotia
said
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I appreciate CTV allowing comments on a story.
It makes me (a senior) feel good to be able to comment on a story.

I have had a couple rejected (probably because I brought something political into the story). Rules are rules but some times others do the same thing and their story does not get rejected but over all I am very happy to be able to comment.

Thank you for allowing comments.



Janice Maxine Student UBC biased double standard
said
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When reporting on the Conservatives it is "beleived McKay and Harper butted heads" or a Source said, or some one close to claims.
With the Liberals he wrote, but was taken out of oontext, misspoke, was taken out of context. What I do not understand is why the Libeal spin all the time? It appears to be induendo for the Conservatives and a down playing of the facts for Liberals.


Akbar Bramtpon
said
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Please add a spell checker.


Rick in NB
said
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It's easy to see the problem CTV producers have. Josh & Nancy seem to be stuck in there political war rooms.
And Beverley Smith has issues with pen names. I don't know why? She probably got mixed up with your James Bond comment.
Hey Bev. Feel free to use any name you desire. There are times when i use a different name. Mostly i find the name adds humor or helps define my point.
We are not journalist and have to realize that we are not the story. So lets keep it light and make it fun.


Scott in Ottawa
said
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I wouldn't worry about readers’ comments as much as perhaps ensuring the story is accurate. Maybe do some editing so that there are no spelling mistakes. There are people who post irrelevant comments not just on ctv's comment sections but all over the internet. The only time it is really of concern is when people start fighting back and forth with each other. In those instances alone I would say censorship is necessary. However one person's mislead comment on a story I don't have a problem with provided it's not derogatory or directly harmful to a person or group. I believe myself capable to evaluate what is important to me.
Too many times I find myself reading a story with inaccurate information or poor grammar. Not that I'm an expert in that matter by any means. But they don't pay me to edit. I would concentrate my efforts on the facts.


Lisa NO MORE LIBERAL EXCUSES AND COVER
said
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Why is the CTV making excuses for Ignatieff if he was running under the Repulican banner no excuses would be made. I hope the CTV is not trying to cover up a subject we should all be concered about BEFORE an election.
Ignatieff made follow up article to the New York Times after he knew the Canadian public was watching saying he was wrong to support the Invasion of Iraq, what his earlier article termed as pre-emptive war.
It seems he meant that part and I think he meant the whole thing Coersive interogation, assassination and pre-emptive war.



Concerned Canadian
said
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Excellent topic and good comments from both sides. I appreciate that CTV has to exercise some discretion in what they post, but deciding what is "relevant" is problematic.

As a retired philosophy teacher, I often try to connect the topic to more general cultural or philosophic issues. This broadens the scope of the discussion in ways that CTV has sometimes felt were inappropriate, but from my perspective, were a means to open the discussion to more fundamental questions.

I would support the idea of allowing comments on more stories, as I am often perplexed by the choice made about what does and does not deserve comment. I appreciate that CTV has limited resources to use, but I am often frustrated by being unable to respond to something that I feel has real interest, while I am allowed to discuss fairly trivial stories.

I have noticed that over time, the general level of discussion seems to have improved, with fewer "ranters" being allowed to use ad hominem arguments and insults. This seems to affect the right-wing posters more, and perhaps that's why they feel they are treated unfairly by your staff. On balance, however, it has produced good results.


B. Kelley, Ontario
said
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The column and editorial control belong to CTV and they have the exclusive right to determine what does and does not appear. I have had some submissions rejected but I don't get out of joint over it. I don't own the site. I would prefer to see the opportunity for posting comments opened up on every story. I realize that some topics may be socially or politically hot but CTV still maintains the appropriate editorial control. %$&*%@, I think I just went off topic!


Yolanda CTV doing a Great JOB
said
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Editing responses is required. A dozen posts of different veiws is good, but if a political insult is repeated by 20 people its boring once the point is made its made.
Good job CTV.


reporting from Ottawa
said
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I agree that ctv should allow comments to all articles online. I sometimes find I wish to add something to an article but find no ability to do so.

Off topic comments are a problem in *every* forum and online community. Posting articles *about* them only serves to draw to them the attention they seek.


cantuc
said
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Hester Riches -- so does that mean that the next time somebody is posting a bunch of anti-Harper b.s. it's not going to appear ? Blaming Harper for everything under the sun happens on here every day so lets give equal treatment . Maybe next time somebody writes in complaining about how the conservatives are making it hard to get unemployment you can write a few paragraphs explaining how the liberals raised the time needed to claim unemployment insurance when unemployment was at ten percent , as opposed to seven where it is now , for instance , but I suppose I'm hoping for waaaaay too much here .


Julian I can decide what information to read
said
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I would like to see more off track discussion, I think Nancy was right on and Alberta believer off topic. That said I am interested to know what people think off the typical track. politicians have agreed to submit themselves to question and comment by choosing their profession. If it is a personal insult or hurtful to someone who is not political it should be subject to screening.
People don't need the media to be their mom on deciding what to read, they have their own moms. They can ignore the comments if they are not interested.
I have noticed more people talking about CTV articles at work since they started allowing posting, just try to be fair and allow shots at parties they should all get it. The comments make me laugh and people cheer for good shots at the Liberals if politically neutral or at the Conservatives if they vote Liberal by habit. Many of the comments often reflect what people are thinking but the media is afraid to say.


Sheryl
said
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I think the whole point of this article was to remind people to at least stay on topic when posting a comment. I've had a few comments rejected, not sure why as they were always about the topic being discussed. Maybe my point didn't agree or fully support what CTV was writing. It makes me wonder if this is their own brand of cencorship.


planfez
said
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to Peter in Sask.

Problem is people hijack a story which reports the basic precepts of journalism on a news website or organization i.e. the 5 "w"s and the 1 "h".

I've been to the comments on various stories of the ctv website and these two particular individuals have a political agenda. Yes while we can ignore it the point to what is being reported has nothing to do with the particular political ideologies held by individuals.

If "Nancy" and "Alberta Believer" don't like "liberals" they're entitled to their opinions but if the story has nothing to do with "liberals" it is taking space away from those who would like to comment on a story. If, however, the story is about "liberals" then "Nancy" and "Alberta Beliver" can knock themselves out. Furthermore, the fact that CTV has posted some of their rants shows that overall CTV has been fair.


Tyler from Brampton
said
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Alberta Beleiver comments reflect how many people feel about the loss of all life and what they consider a holocast but it was off topic and should of been rejected. The comments would be more relevent if Dr. M's youth was the the subject of the story and how he was raised in a German concentration camp and what effect this abuse had on him to witness state sponsor killing of people that were unwanted by a society.


MervO
said
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At CTV it is only off topic if it sneaks in a idea fron the right side. The blogashere belongs to the left add to that ... present day journalist are all university grads, and we know there is no left wing influence down at old U of ???. They saying "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see" now works equally well if you substitute the word hear with the word read


Beverley Smith
said
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I am grateful for your comments section and for the chance to have a dialogue with other Canadaians about issues of concern. It is a 'nation talking to itself' and powerful. I remember reading the quote once that if you had to choose between a good government and a suppressed press or a bad government and a free press, it is better to choose the free press.

I would however like to comment about the issue of identities of writers. Though one might assume that honesty of name is a basic requirement duh, the fact is that many women over the course of their lives have 2 or 3 names, depending on marital history. Some married women retain their maiden name professionally because it was the one that established their career, even if they also use the married name at the school their kids attend. So asking women to submit their 'real 'name is a bit of a conundrum sometimes and I think the standard has to be if they are findable, if they regularly use that name and are not trying to deceive anyone. The second thing I'd like to say about names is that in the literary tradition and in the arts community, having a performer name, a pen name, a professional name is actually. From professional wrestlers to actresses, from poets to novelists, we all know that historically people have often dropped their birth name and adopted another for their careers. A media outlet asking then for your 'real name' has a dilemma because if it required birth name only, we'd never have heard from Mark Twain. Third case scenario is those who adopt a pseudonym to protect the identity of minors' scenario. Permit it.


Nancy: Ignaiteff deserves same treatment
said
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AS Canada warms up to Prime Minister Harper also known as Sweater Man with kittens, Ignatieff needs to be explored.
In addition to his frieghtning statements in the above article he wrote Blood and Belonging and comments need to be squeszed in here and there so Canadians know who this guy really is, he has written a lot about Blood & War and as Ignatieff said: I am horribly arrogant and think I have the bloody answer to every question. That statement scares me. The fact he was flattered as he said when his father count Ignatieff. After he supported co-ersive interogation, I think we all know that means torture.
When moving into Stornway as seen on his website he joked about the excercise room being the torture equipment. That scares me he finds torture a joke and that the word comes up again with him ... I am concerned that most of the allegations are actions he wrote about in the Lesser Evil saying we must traffic in Evil and our image will also be hurt in the world.
I am very concerned as a person who loves Canada that it may be high jacked and people could be tricked by Election time books that seem to be inconsistent with everything Ignatieff wrote up to 2004 when he was almost 60 yrs old.


Josh in Toronto a former Liberal
said
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I think Nancy has a point. The Liberal Party never seems to be put under the micro-scope and excuses made for them oh they were taken out of context. I am not so sure they were. The fact Dion beat him and he was rejected by Liberal delgates when given the chance,speaks volumes. There are too many questions out there about him and why he wanted to avoid another contest with other delgates. I beleive the party made the decision that if this came up publicly in a leadertship contest it would be too damaging to the party. A honest and open look at who this guy really is needs to be explored with hard questions not excuses for Ignatieff.


Rick in NB
said
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You people at CTV do a great job at keeping us between the invisible boundaries of the topic. As it is you allow us to stretch the boundaries to the breaking point. Being a guilty poster i step over the line weekly. Sometimes it ticks me off when i'm rejected. But i know if we were left unchecked, our comments would become rants. Then the rants become personal slurs that have nothing in common with the article.
What i would like to suggest is for CTV to create a Soap Box comment section. This will allow the poster to act or react to issues they feel aren't settled.


Hester Riches
said
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Hello cantuc
You asked --"I have to wonder why you have to take the time and two paragraphs to defend and explain what Ignatief said"

... good point. I'm one of the producers at CTV.ca, and approved Michael's column today. I wondered about that myself, but then decided to leave that section in. It helps explain that while we strive to publish as many comments as possible representing a wide range of opinion, the comments system is often bombarded with misleading and inaccurate information.

As a news site, we strive for overall accuracy in both editorial matters and published comments. Perhaps Michael can expand on that in next week's column, with more examples.



Inkmont
said
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I like to see comments on topic. The personal rants are very easy to detect and ignore. Peter in Saskatchewan wondered why some stories allow comments and some not. I am one person who would like to see comments open on all the major articles, and left open for a longer period. Maybe one reason people sneak their views into an inappropriate subject is they're frustrated because the article about what's on their mind has no comment ability. If possible, I would like to see more articles open to comments. I do appreciate the hard work that goes into moderating here.


island girl
said
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I don't understand why you give an entire article over to a person whose comments you rejected. They have more press coverage now than if their comments were buried in with everyone else's posts under the column. Every online paper screens their postings so they're not defamitory, threatening, or irrelevent. If you can't get a handle on those parameters it leaves your site very vulnerable.


Dwight Halpenny
said
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No, your reporting of people's comments are valid and essential. Therefore to answer your question: No, you haven't gone too far, and no, you haven't gone off topic.


cantuc
said
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I have to wonder why you have to take the time and two paragraphs to defend and explain what Ignatief said over a comment you didn't post. If that isn't sneaking a Liberal talking point in, what is?


Tom Hanna
said
0 0

I'm gonna have to side with Michael Stittle on this one. There is a time and place for everything and if one cannot keep with the matter at hand, pop a couple more, stare at that picture on the wall a little while longer and try it again in a few hours!


Peter in Saskatchewan
said
0 0

I almost agree there has to be some discretion in what is posted - but if what people write is not relevant, then I'll ignore it and check the next comment.

What I really wonder about is why some stories have comment sections and some don't. I don't agree with banning all comments.

If this is really an information age, then let the information flow, and what is irrelevant will be exposed.

All of us have our biases, no one is truly objective, no matter how much they claim to be, so any restrictions will be affected by the person doing the restricting.


 

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