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Top Comments: April 5, 2009
By: Michael Stittle, CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Sun. Apr. 5 2009 6:10 PM ET
If you're reading this, chances are you hate the Canadian Auto Workers.
Unions rarely get much sympathy in our comments section. If the CAW were a Canadian city, it would be Toronto; if a city hit by a snowstorm, then Vancouver.
But in this case, the CAW is not fighting for higher wages or better benefits -- it's trying to save its existence by pushing for federal loans to the automotive sector.
According to the Centre for Spatial Economics, if the Detroit Three disappear it could ultimately cost Canada 582,000 jobs -- that's approaching the entire population of Winnipeg. If the companies survive, but cut production by 50 per cent, Canada would lose 296,000 jobs.
The entire country would feel that loss. It would put a sizable dent in our Gross National Product, not to mention a heavy strain on our ability to support the unemployed.
"I would like to stress that this challenge is not just about saving the auto industry," CAW president Ken Lewenza recently said. "This is about our overall economy, and our future as a trading nation."
But judging by the majority of our comments, Lewenza is having a difficult time winning over the Canadian public. Many of our readers feel that their tax money would be wasted in a bailout, by going into the pockets of auto workers who have not made enough concessions.
It's something other industries and union leaders may want to pay attention to as they hone their communications techniques for troubled times.
This week, "LPP" neatly summed up what many readers have written on our website: "If this isn't the mentality of entitlement or what! Over half the population of Canada works for less than $30 hour with no benefits to boot."
Or, as "Oil Country" wrote: "Let's say you make $25/hr, that's about 50K/yr, how many people out there out of work, who lost that $10/hr job, would jump at the opportunity, to start at even $15/hr?"
Lewenza recently said union members "could work for free for a year, and it might prolong the life of GM by a week." He puts direct labour costs at about seven per cent for the production of a vehicle, and has claimed wages in Japan and Germany are higher.
Other comments have targeted the education of auto workers, as if lacking a university degree should automatically doom you to low pay. "GP" wrote: "I have to say that auto workers generally have little post secondary education but demand University degree wages...on what planet is this sustainable. Sorry union members it's just reality catching up with you."
The Detroit Three have found themselves on the wrong side of history, focusing too heavily on gas guzzlers and a broken business model made worse by the global credit freeze. Unfortunately, hundreds of thousands of Canadians depend on those companies for their livelihoods.
A few readers took aim at the management of GM. This is a company that, led by Rick Wagoner, spent millions of dollars lobbying the U.S. congress in 2007 to change legislation aimed at reducing the amount of oil used for fuel in cars. On the other side of the world, Japanese automakers continued to focus on low-mileage vehicles like the Prius, Civic Hybrid or Yaris.
It may be no coincidence that in 2007 Toyota finally caught up to GM, matching sales of more than nine million vehicles worldwide.
One reader, "emran," said the Detroit Three needs to follow the example of Toyota and focus on smaller cars -- steps the automakers have already taken. "I know a lot of people who would love a new car. My wife and I purchased used, because it's cheaper. The labour is not the problem, it's the retail price consumers are avoiding."
A few readers also hurled criticism at Wagoner, after he had been pushed out of GM by U.S. President Barack Obama for a fresh leader to oversee the company's restructuring. Wagoner did not receive a severance deal, but according to ABC News his retirement package -- including benefits -- was worth around $23 million.
"Did any of you CAW bashers see how much Wagoner is going to get for GM losing billions?" wrote "Barry tillsonburg." "$23 million... Now get your pen and paper out and do the math. How many workers could get paid out of that? And don't you people think $23 million could be better used to help GM?"
One thing is clear: whatever the source of GM's problems, or any of the Detroit Three, more is at stake here than the wages of CAW or a handful of executives. I'll give the final say to "Lorne," who wrote: "Although I do not want to see any stimulus provided to the manufacturers, the ripple effect that will occur if the car makers close the doors will be tremendous. Businesses that deal with these car makers will also have to close their doors, resulting in further job losses. It makes a person wonder when common sense will prevail by all involved, so that we can get ourselves out of this economic dilemma."
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It is about time - as a grandparent I have watched our kids (who were allowed to fail although I do remember some nagging on our part) learn, I have watched our children now micro-manage their children. A big part of it is the fact that there are predators out there and an extreme reluctance on the parents part to alllow freedom that might result in the children becoming victims.
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Sparky in Kitchener
said
If they play "hardball" and refuse a reasonable wage offer(that means that maybe they won't get $38.00/hr to tighten the wheel lug nuts)They might have to settle for what they will get from unemployment insurance.
I want the CAW to explain why I should subsidize their wages from my own lesser wages! When they make the same hourly wage as me, I would be happy to help them
I hope more people feel the same way and take the time to express their feelings!
eddytoronto
said
American banks and credit agencies conspired to create a system in which so-called “liars loans” could receive AAA ratings and zero oversight, amounting to a massive “fraud” at the epicenter of US finance.
But worse still, Timothy Geithner, President Barack Obama’s Secretary of the Treasury, is currently engaged in a cover-up to keep the truth of America’s financial insolvency from its citizens.
I'll Tell Ya.. The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One!
A single bank, IndyMac, lost more money than the entire Savings and Loan Crisis!
The difference between now and then is a drastic reduction in regulation and oversight, ‘We now know what happens when you destroy regulation. You get the biggest financial calamity of anybody under the age of 80.’”
That financial calamity, was brought about not by mishap or accident, but only after a concerted effort to undermine and remove all regulations, allowing a creditor free-for-all that hinged on fraudulent risk ratings for bad loans.
The way that you do it is to make really bad loans, because they pay better!
I equate the entire US financial system to a giant “ponzi scheme” and charged Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, like Secretary Henry Paulson before him, of “covering up” the truth.
Engaged in a cover up to keep us from knowing what went wrong or who was involved in this,..The Biggest robbery in history?
“When will Canadians and Americans wake up and hold the real criminals - Banksters - accountable for their actions, and pressure the government to enact systemic changes to prevent future abuses?
Prof. Pye Chartt
said
"It was meant to be this way. It was designed to turn you into a share cropper a peasant a modern day version of a serf indebted to the international bankers...
Economic collapse was planned well in advance."
___________________
Lord knows, I love a good conspiracy theory; for they defy logic and common sense in such a profoundly artful way.
I tip my hat to you. The idea that certain people conspire to destroy the world, in order to (somehow) benefit themselves, is a wondrous proposition befitting a Hollywood "B" movie.
I like it. If you need an agent to help pitch the concept, I'd love to help out.
P.S. Please don't wear the tinfoil hat to the pitch meeting. Thanks.
Doug
said
Eyes Wide Open
said
That being said...being a private contractor is the way to go. Knowing what you do and doing it well, will always serve to give you triple figure wages. To yourself. I don't have a high school diploma either. It is just we know how to do it on our own. Getting paid 70 an hour (and yes that is the right number with all benefits, pension etc included), for what they do is just wrong. The buyer is the one who pays for it on the lot. That's why the value drops 10 000 dollars on a vehicle when you drive it off the lot.
eddytoronto
said
Terri
said
Natty
said
Over-generous Pension Plans are an Unsustainable burden. Prime reason why they should be allowed to Fail then Revived under complete Re-structure.
Other truth is Cars are loaded with unneccessary gadgets which double the price of production, yet Rust-up as fast as before.
The day Car prices rivalled house prices (1980s) was the day Auto Industry went into decline.
Auto Industry needs to Manufacture independently of influence from Big Oil and Insurance companies.
Michael (Ottawa)
said
Unions "used" to be needed to help workers from unscrupulous employers. Today, we have unscrupulous unions who don't care if they cause inflation, drive the cost of goods and services up and seriously affect the economy.
I for one am increasingly against unions as they are becoming a bunch of legalized bandits and social liberal politicians don't have the guts to deal with it lest they lose votes. The whole system is throughly corrupt, unions, politics et al.
As for jealousy, that's a juvenile comment. An uneducated line worker doesn't deserve more money than a professional who puts him/herself through school gets out later and costs another $100k to set up shop. It's about value for effort and too many union members are grossly overpaid for the effort they expend to earn a living.
eddytoronto
said
Helicopter Ben Obama Congress and much of the corporate media still refuse to tell the truth were in a depression not a recession. The cable news shows tell us Obama stimulus bill will make things right when in fact the latest thinly disguised boondoggle coupled with the multitrillion dollar banker bailout scams will soon usher in crushing hyperinflation.
It was meant to be this way. It was designed to turn you into a share cropper a peasant a modern day version of a serf indebted to the international bankers.
It is quite a toxic stew stock market on the fall corporate bankruptcies bank failures insurance failures cities and states on the verge of bankruptcies a foreclosure epidemic government bond collapse pension plans looted.
Obama has the answer more government spending and more debt for our children and their children. In other words the answer to a crisis created by indebtedness is more debt.
A banker compromised Congress created the Federal Reserve System Fannie Mae Freddie Mac Ginnie Mae Sallie Mae the Federal Housing Administration and the Federal Home Loan Banks and thats just the beginning. Government directly encouraged the indebtedness of four out of five homerelated borrowers. The national debt of the United States officially stands at $13.802 trillion or about $67,851 per capita and 70.5 percent of GDP although this figure is seriously understated due to off balance sheet obligations that is to say money we owe the bankers but the government is not telling us about.
In fact the obligations of the federal government come in around $65 trillion a figure that exceeds the gross domestic product of the world.
Economic collapse was planned well in advance. From now on depressions will be scientifically created Charles A. Lindberg Sr. after the Federal Reserve was established in the dead of night.
The very same science is at work today.
myspace.com/fleamarketcreep
said
The slowing economy is just the straw the broke the camel's back. These companies have been making shoddy vehicles and offering poor quality service for years. And NOW they think the government should just hand them a bunch of our hard earned money?
This is capitalism. Let the people decide who survives.
Rick
said
I laughed when I read this comment. I do not have a university degree nor did I even complete high school. I do contract work and I earned over 250K last year and will make over 300K this year. Sooooo... go ahead and keep thinking that a uni degree entitles you to a high rate of pay and I will keep eating your lunch. :-)
Nancy- Unions are against profit, Close the plant
said
Troubled1
said
spencer
said
The union model is rooted in a different economy, and marketplace. The union structure needs to change with the times to save both their members, and the north american auto sector.
Other union groups will be next.....likely the teachers.
The Toronto teachers union has been in a battle with the board over insignificant items.
High pay...holidays on every holiday known to man...break at Christmas, and spring....and 2 months off during summer....add to that PD days that rob class time.
If the education system was a company it would have gone bankrupt DECADES ago.
We as a society need to rethink compensation.....the days of $150 a barrel oil will return, and as our economy goes into turmoil again we need to take with us the lessons from this one.
Jeremy
said
My Step son in law got laid off from G.M last Dec.
said
This is a major mis-management that had been compound for years! I am so happy that they fired the CEO of General Motor. They should fired all of them include the UNION LEADERS!
When comes to cost to make a product which is a fixed amount, they have to decrease the amount from some other section like labour so that they can make a profit. It's just common sense - doesn't need any Business Degree to fugure it out!
Union should be a part of the PAST - not NOW! Funny that that Honda and Toyota are also suffering from the decrease of sales. But they did not ask for any bailout at all. Answer - they don't have UNIONS to brain wash them!
We just can't feel sorry for all the union members if they can't give up something. They all need to wake up, smell the coffee and join us in the line up! They are no special people!
td
said
I have spent countless hours on the internet and dealer's lots narrowing down my choices.
Chrysler - no thanks!
Ford - not too keen on
GM - I say maybe, wife says NO!
That leaves Honda, Mazda, Nissan and Toyota still in the running.
Each and every brand/model seems to have it's own good and bad points. Simply put the product from the big three has more bad points than good. Even if they are a bit cheaper in some cases.
Gabe Asher
said
Can't afford a new car??
Did it ever occur to you that maybe if you made a union wage, you could buy a new car?
If you dont make enough $$ , dont get angry at those that do, get angry at yourself and the career choices you made. The CAW is not responsible for your low wage.
The labour is not the cause of this condition, just think, if everyone had more money, there would be more spending. Spending that just might support the industry you work for.
but then again, if you could afford a new car, you still require the foresight to buy a domestic Big 3 car if you want to be part of the greater good.
Concerned Canadian
said
As for this issue, your point about the impact of letting the auto companies fail severely undercuts many posters desire to let them go under. None of us can afford that scenario, regardless of our desire to punish GM.
And the fact that auto workers wages are only 7% of the total cost of car production again undercuts the union-bashers position. The fact is that GM and the others were in trouble before the market crash- all this has done is speed things up.
And the reason for the failure has little to do with the unions - people still buy Hondas, even though their wage costs are approximately the same. They buy Honda and Toyota for the quality. And that's down to decisions made by management, not the workers.
I also find it amazing that people complain about union workers wages and contrast them with wages made by university trained people. I have a Ph.D., but it doesn't worry me that auto workers make more- I love what I do, and I have tenure. In a free market system, people negotiate their wages. Don't complain if they do better that you do.
Sorry union bashers - the facts just don't support your argument, as this article shows. Not that you'll change your minds, of course...
James in Ft Mac
said
I want to see a government bailout of oil companies so these jobs can be persevered.
Whats good for Ontario is good for Alberta.
GP
said
The exceptions would be private sector innovation or having years and years of specialized experience (shop foreman). For example, a not necessarily well education person can have a brilliant idea combined the tenacity to develop it…an exceptional, hard working individual.
Ultimately the only way around the relationship between a good education and a good wage is a lifetime of sustained and focussed very very hard work. I personally believe these people are some of our societies greatest contributors…but with no education are very rare.
So yes, if you have no or little education then you are in most cases doomed to a low paying job without serious effort and/or support. In this context how does a assembly line worker with no education, demonstrated exceptional abilities, or specialized experience rate a $30/hr (+) job…quite simply they don’t with any hope of it being sustainable.
Connie (Calgary)
said
dan
said
Maybe your husband should form a union.
Your husbands working conditions are the exact reasons unions were formed,so men and women could have better pay and vacation and time with their families.
Every company existing would love to reintroduce slavery again so they could profit more on the backs of wipped workers.
Unions were formed for many reasons and salary was not the only one.
Lets be very careful at what direction we let greedy companies take workers.
Socialism is not too far away.
The $70 per hour number is misleading.
said
Can't afford a new car in Canada
said
Rick in NB
said
Using the logo CAW to deminize the auto worker sector is incorect. The fact is that most of the CAW union workers never built, fixed or sold any automobiles. They are care givers and fishermen. In the service sector or in tansportation as i was.
Secondly, i'm tired of posters pigeon holing Ford in with the so called Big Three. Ford has never asked nor threatened money from our governments. The worst brush you can paint them with is the line of credit. A far cry from the bully tactics of Lasorda, or the hat in hand approach Wagoner.
Last i would like to point out that if it were not for constant unoin activism the minimum wage would stagnate. And a lot of global benefits would not exist.
THey prosper because they've got a union.
said
Your husband, on his days off, should organize his fellow workers so that they can get a better deal for themselves.
Stop whining and start fighting.
The boss is not your buddy.
gord muirhead- sault ste. marie
said
Stev
said
Dayton
said
island girl
said
MIKE
said
IF THE WORKERS AT HONDA, TOYOTA CAN MAKE A PROFIT ON THEIR VEHICLES AND THEIR WORKERS ARE PAID LESS, THEN HOW DOES THE CAW FIGURE THAT WHAT THEY GET PAID IS NOT ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS FOR THE BIG THREE.
JUST MY TWO CENTS.
GUTSHOT! in Thunder Bay
said
The Detroit Three have found themselves on the wrong side of history, focusing too heavily on gas guzzlers and a broken business model made worse by the global credit freeze.
From the real world:
The Detroit Three have found themselves on the wrong side of the media and the vastly uninformed public which believes that Detroit only builds "gas guzzlers" and also have a poor business plan.
Gas guzzlers is what people were buying, until the oil thieves drove the prices to the sky, which ultimately kicked off this recession. Even today, trucks are what people are purchasing. Why? because thats what people want, despite the rhetoric from the urban Toronto crowd.
Secondly, Detroit's business model may not be perfect, but they are not alone in the manufacturing downturn. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have all idled plants and cut production. There are endless acres of Japanese cars sitting unsold, at an enormous cost to those manufacturers.
Lets see some real journalism here. Can we see reports about fair trade vs free trade in the automotive market? Can we see some real journalism that shows hybrids simply dont work in cold climates instead of joining in a lockstep with the "green" movement?
and lastly, lets see some reports how the government of Japan backs up their auto industry, so they can take over North America, without ever firing a shot.
of course this will never make the displayed comments.
Prof. Pye Chartt
said
While your weekly summary piece certainly nailed the overall sentiment with regard to the UAW/CAW and the plight of the auto sector, I think you've failed to acknowledge the fundamental argument tabled by countless posters (including yours truly)...
GM, and Chrysler, should have been left by the U.S. and Canadian federal governments to enter into Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection; just as in the case of the American airline industry. This is/was the only sensible, rational measure for properly "saving" these companies.
Nobody really wants to see GM, Ford, and Chrysler disappear. Most people understand the economic impact of their demise. (However, the notion that 100% of displaced industry employment would be permanent defies market realities.)
The point here is that our governments have taken this situation out of the hands of the immediate stakeholders (corporate management, shareholders, creditors, unions, parts suppliers) and thrust the taxpayer into a potentially losing equation.
Despite arguments to the contrary, this was NOT necessary...and a huge percentage of North Americans know it.
Steve Eldridge
said
Warren in toon town
said
Phil
said
Now it's a case of dumping that pressure on other sectors than the one your working in or being part of. It's a case of monetary survival, robbery by proxy if you will.
Concessions must cut into the lifestyles of the drive to get rich which degrades the majority which are not. If the drive for more other than less is gambled [with your current jobs] upon by the obstinacy or lunacy of getting rich is insisted on, a whole bunch of people will loose out with the gamblers included.
Shift what drives people and...
DECLARE THE RAT RACE OVER! That is one of the many ways to at least mitigate the problem[s].
Ronald in Toronto
said
The bonuses for failure are beyond obscene. Their existence cracks, if not shatters, realities.
Call this "The Settling".