Tory MP wants study of when 'personhood' begins

National Affairs co-host Scott Reid says comments made by a Tory MP on the definition of when a fetus becomes a human being is really two problems for Stephen Harper, first is the abortion issue, which can be handled, but the other is the rise of dissident backbench MPs.

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The Canadian Press

Date: Mon. Feb. 6 2012 9:37 PM ET

OTTAWA — A backbench Tory MP is asking Parliament to study whether Canada's definition of a human being, which refers to birth, needs to be pushed back to include life in the womb.

Stephen Woodworth, a pro-life member representing a Kitchener, Ont., riding, said today he has filed a motion in the House of Commons asking for a committee to study the issue.

Woodworth, who says the issue is "relevant to the abortion issue," wants Canada to throw out its 400-year-old definition of a human being as someone who is born, saying medical evidence has shown that human beings are created sometime before birth.

Justice Minister Rob Nicholson immediately played down the move, saying the "prime minister has been very clear, our government will not reopen this debate" -- a reference to Stephen Harper's assurances that his government will not reopen the abortion question.

Woodworth's motion would have to be approved by a majority in the House of Commons before it could be considered by any special committee.

Woodworth says he wants the issue studied, and is not suggesting what the outcome might be.

"Now there might be some people who can convince themselves that a child magically transforms into a human being when their little toe pops out of the birth canal," he said in remarks for a news conference Monday.

"However, I've concluded that modern medical science will inform us that children are in reality human beings at some point before the moment of complete birth."

Comments are now closed for this story

CC
said

Unwanted babies leads to unwanted children. Unwanted children are usually neglected and have a much higher chance to become criminals. Conservatives want to put criminals to death. So really conservatives should be pro abortion.

retiti
said

keep your religion out of my uterus. for the record, i have no issue with abortion done before anything that might be birthed naturally can survive, even with machines. if it cant, even with every machine out there, its not a life, its a collection of cells that somewhat resembles a baby. anything AFTER that, should be a no, unless the baby is looking at a short lifetime of agony due to severe medical issues.

GHW
said

I'm pro life and pro choice. I would welcome a study. More information can only help. Harper won't touch this though.

John, Halifax, NS
said

"Prof" Pye says he's a libertarian - that is the funniest thing I've read on CTV in months!!!What's next Harper is Hugo Chavez in disguise?!!!

Leonard
said

What an interesting proposal by Mr. Woodworth. Given that 'personhood' is neither a medical nor scientific concept, such experts would not be needed on the committee. Personhood is a philosophical, legal and theological matter, so the committee would comprise philosophers, legal scholars and theologians. I would be fascinated to learn of their conclusions on this issue.

UnkindAtheist
said

Hey Simple Bob and Simple Sarah: This is what happens. Try to pay attention. At the early stages, the nuclei of individual cells are clearly visible, and viewers can observe the frantic activity of the genetic material in each nucleus as the cells prepare for further divisions. Over the five-day time period, the large cells of the early stages become more and more compact, subdividing their cytoplasm with each successive division. Toward the end of the five-day period, the mass of cells begins to cavitate in the center, producing the blastocyst.The blastocyst is a sphere of about 150 cells, with an outer layer (the trophoblast), a fluid-filled cavity (the blastocoel), and a cluster of cells on the interior (the inner cell mass).

Bob in Cornwall
said

What part of Prime Minister Harper's, "We will not reopen the abortion debate" do some of you not understand? Please knock off the 'hidden agenda' rhetoric. There isn't one.

John, Halifax, NS
said

To the conception groups of posters answer me this:What happens when you take a 9 week old fetus in the womb and remove it? Oh, right it dies.Until the fetus is/can be sustained on it's own, it is NOT a person. Sorry, but it just isn't.And even then, no one has a right to tell anyone what to do with their bodies. I'd personally like to see them make the right choice if late in pregnancy but it's NOT mine or your choice to make.So...take your jesus and stick him up your rear ends, that's about all this imaginary joker is good for. BTW - jesus if he lived by all recounts with a lefty...

Harry
said

so, can the family allowance cheques start at conception as well???

UnkindAtheist
said

What is miraculous about conception? Humans are NOT unique in this sense. You may "believe" life is miraculous but scientific fact shows it is not. 150 cells?(blastocycst) Big deal. There are considerably more cells in a housefly. When you blow your nose there is more cellular matter and DNA you are throwing away in the kleenex than there are in a blastocyst! Considering what can be done with cloning - will blowing your nose be "killing a potential human being" in the minds of the people of Kitchener? Christian idiots need to be kept away from Canadian politics. Same with anyone who has faith in a (or several) God.(s)

Pro Choice
said

Tony from Southern Ontario said "People who get and perform abortions should be charged with murder!! There are better alternatives to dealing with children than murdering them. If a person does not want to have a baby, they should not have unprotected sex. It's just plain simple!!"--------------------------------------------------------Really??? Should not have unprotected sex??? Try telling that to someone who has been raped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RGO in Montreal
said

Of course the usual response from the Con supporters is: "Must be a slow news day.", or "this isn't news". Well my little right-winged friends, it became a news story as soon as M. Woodworth dropped the motion. This is how Harper chips slowly away at our Canadian culture, he approves of his MP's introducing these ridiculous back-door motions, which then become voting material for the rest of the Con brigade.

Liberal in Alberta
said

Hey Tony from Southern Ontario,What about women who are victims of rape? Should they ask their rapist to put on a condom first?? What an ignorant thing to say.

carolejuliawall
said

When a cat is expecting, we are sure she has a catin her stomach. What about a chicken? AAAa dog?So what about a woman....she also has a human being in her stomach since the very beginning of conception. Has anyone ever seen a woman give birth to a chicken? When there is conception, whatever is conceived has the same nature all thetime that it grows inside and then comes out fromthe womb. There is a case in Canada in which a handicaped person sues her mother because she was drunk and had an accident driving, while she was pregnant....the baby was born handicaped. The baby later defended her or his rights as a foetus and won the case. So then the foetus had rights. CW

John Lethbridge
said

This motion obviously won't make it to special committee, it is way too hot of a potato for most of our politicians. Woodworth knows this, but makes a very obvious point. There are fundamental, scientific and basic moral problems with abortion that our laws gloss over to support this social extreme left-wing agenda, and Canadians should ponder the 'facts' when it comes to abortion and how we justify abortions. For your anti-christian benefit, I don't think we even need to bring religion into this debate, and certainly I wouldn't want that to cloud your logical reasoning.

KevinHamilton
said

If life begins are conception, then where are all the petitions to make everyone 9 months older and change all of our ID's?If all the 'pro-lifers' use religion as their reasoning, maybe we should go ask the talking shrub from the Bible to clarify everything for us?

liberal in alberta
said

Life at conception?? WTF?? Forget the right wing religious cries about baby murdering. An embryo cannot breathe, the organ systems are not fully mature. Embryos and fetuses are nothing more than parasites, which require the mother to survive. Until it emerges from the womb, it should be up to the woman to decide if she wants to continue voluntarily carrying the parasite or not. Plain and simple. Check out the definition of parasites. This is the 21 century, not the dark ages in which religion-brain washing ruled reason.

Bill Toronto
said

It will separate the human person and the corporate person and they don't want this separation.

Gregory Wollf
said

As if the one page blurb presented as news could give us full picture of what is really going on in respect to this issue.

eric
said

Everyone in Kitchener Center just facepalmed*

Robert777
said

EXCELLENT! Life begins at conception. All educated people would agree on that.

ihatewherethisisgoing
said

Am I to understand that the recession is over? It must be, otherwise why would the govenment (in all it's infinite wisdom) spend our tax dollars on pointless studies like this.

James
said

@Pye: Yes, how dare those crafty Liberals involved in the media conspiracy use "things Conservative MPs actually said" as part of their Machiavellian schemes! I'd agree that Harper will beat this particular fundy back in to his cage but to pretend that Woodworth's statements are not reflective of a sizeable portion of the Conservative party is disingenuous. Are all the pro-lifers commenting here also part of the Liberal conspiracy? Guess which way they vote.

Mandosa
said

"Now there might be some people who can convince themselves that a child magically transforms into a human being when their little toe pops out of the birth canal". Interestingly enough, the pro-choice camp actually defines it as when the last little toe *EXITS* the birth canal. Hence that most grotesque of procedures known as 'partial birth abortions'. But details aren't really germane to this debate when someones right to choose (whatever that means) is on the line..

A Canadian Person
said

My pet peve is saying that opening the abortion debate would be "against the will of the canadian people" Harper has said he will not open the debate, but if he did.... I as a Canadian Person would welcome it as I know would many others

steve
said

@ tony in southern ontario. watch what you say sir, i know people who have had an abortion and they are far from murderers. you are entitled to you views as twisted and far out bordering on the line of neo conservative righteousness. your comments are sickening and your ideas are very dangerous.

Laurie
said

The person in the womb also should have rights. Right to life is fundamental to all others. A culture that does not protect children in the womb is in self-destruct mode.

Dundee
said

The human heart beats at 2 weeks. The human being feels pain, including the pain from the abortion being performed on them, at about 12-14 weeks. I thought torture in this country was illegal. Why do we treat our pets and criminals better than our unborn children?

mike
said

Its too bad the pro abortionists parents made the choice not to abort, then we would not be having this conversation.

libertarian (real)
said

Nobody is suggesting the Conservatives are stupid about the abortion debate but they are masters of trickery. The simple fact that a conservative Pro-lifer has filed a motion for committee of study, says everything. Please. No-skills Steve would have squashed any discussion or motions in a second if he was sincere about keeping buried the abortion debate. This is a key issue with their fundamentalist base. This is not going away. But, in case Steve missed the memo, this issue has been decided. And it certainly won't be re-legitimized by the patriarchal whims of any Conservative leaning males.

SidPE
said

Legally, a doctor can half deliver a fully developed baby, and as long as her baby toe is still inside her mother, can kill it in any way he wants, no matter how painful to the child. This is what our "laws" state. Even pro abortionists should be appalled.

Limogeschina
said

oh yaaaaaaaaa. Can't they think of anything else to spend the taxpayers money on.

Lane
said

I agree that infants should become eligible for legal protection at some point before birth. However, you don't need to give an unborn infant legal status as a person in order to protect it in the Criminal Code. After all, we have laws protecting animals from cruelty and they are not legal persons. All that is needed is a law banning abortions after a certain point in the pregnancy (the Supreme Court in 1988 recommended some point during the second trimester).

LMG
said

Like Prof said, Harper and company ain't touching it. It would a a death sentence to their party as they would never get majority again.

jon in gatineau
said

WOW !! another politican wasting the governments time with nothing really that important !!!! instead they should be looking at fixing our fiscal problems, job creating, over spending, hospitals , schools etc !!! Instead lets talk about something that creates alot of controversy!!! that everyone has there own opinion on is not going to make life for the living people any better only make them more criminal in there personal choices !!!! we need the government to give us the people the power to govern ourselves we sure could not do any worse !!!! we all know what is wrong !!! but a bunch of over educated street stupid politicians that want to keep over spending on a sustem that is 100% unsustainable !!!! get to work and do soemthing better than talking about this crap !!!! you should be fired for being so stupid and wasting the governments time and our tax payer money !!!

Island Man
said

First thing...these guys are not Tories...Tories were Progressive Conservatives notl Right Wing Reformers. I can see why these Neanderthals want to find out what a Human Being is so that in itself is not a bad thing.

Carl
said

I agree that there should be limits on abortion. A foetus clearly becomes a baby at some point during the pregnancy. It is viable outside the womb at 20 weeks, according to the Canadian Medical Association. Most Canadians are unaware that abortion is legal in Canada right up to the very moment of birth, and most do not approve of late-term abortions.

Howard in Brampton
said

This is so typical of Pro Life advocates - they will just not take no for an answer. Unfortunately, for his constituents, his effectiveness with the Conservative Party might lessen, since he didn't seem to heed Harper's statement that he has no intention of reopening this debate. Nuff said.

MaryB
said

So far I haven't found any Pro-Choice people who would kill an unborn baby 1 minute before it's worn...doesn't that tell us something about personhood...before and after birth.

Bumcrack USA
said

More double-speak from the reformers.They don't want to reopen the abortion debate, don't want to reopen the gay rights debate, don't want to reopen the death penalty debate (actually never said they wouldn't reopen that one)... but we sure end up spending a lot of time talking about those issues since they got elected, don't we? Sounding more and more like the States everyday.

Jason Daniel Baker, Toronto
said

Harper and his friends have no one but themselves to blame if wacko special interests get their people elected as Tories given Harper's calculated ambiguity on certain social issues. The wisdom behind it is that they might start another Reform Party and split the vote again helping the Liberals and the NDP The rest of us I think just wish these weirdos would go back to whatever trailerpark they came from and lock themselves away to wait for the rapture.

Sid
said

Geez thous neo-con reformers are so bright, lets call them sunny. A chicken is an egg until the chick hatches. Same goes for a human, once it's out of the womb it is a human baby, end of story.

Original Canadien
said

Eeeewwwww. Back subject to debate. Not because of what it is itsef but the level of diversified opinions will probably be greater than there are molecules that make up our planet.Bad MP! Bad! I don't care what one's opinion on this is, you will never get a consensus one way or another.

Prof. Pye Chartt
said

I love "news" stories like this because they represent media-concocted conspiratorial jackpots used by anti-Conservatives to pull their little "hidden agenda" binder back off the bottom shelf and start ranting with desperate, mouth-frothing abandon. Watching them light their hair on fire, as if their whole way of life is under attack, makes for a good political show. Never mind the truth, and any statement made in formal support thereof. Get the lighter fluid and the matches out! (I'm a pro-choice libertarian, and this doesn't phase me a bit. Harper & Company aren't going there; they aren't that stupid.)

Tony from Southern Ontario
said

People who get and perform abortions should be charged with murder!! There are better alternatives to dealing with children than murdering them. If a person does not want to have a baby, they should not have unprotected sex. It's just plain simple!!

John (Cambridge)
said

There is no value to be gained from studying a moving line. It is where you think it is and it should stay there!

what about bob
said

Life begins at concepcion - plain and simple!!

Lynn
said

I think Canadians would be shocked to learn that it is legal to abort a child anytime during the entire gestation period, including right up until that child is fully born. Barbaric! and shameful that no government has yet had the courage to ask this question.

Sarah
said

Good for him. Agree / not, we as a country need to be educated about the development of life in the womb. It is exponential, miraculous, and significant.

John Lethbridge
said

Is a no-brainer. At the moment of conception, a complete and distinct DNA is formed which is unique to that person, and stays with that person through fetus development, birth, childhood, adulthood and old age. Completely scientific logic to support 'personhood' at conception. In fact, it get's really akward to suggest otherwise, (from a scientific basis, of course).

Outraged in Montreal
said

and how is this not opening up the abortion debate? Herr Harper has his goosesteppers out to implement his hidden agenda -- this is not my Canada and this has to stop.

Brian Fr Langley
said

We can all argue as to when life begins. What we can not argue is the value we all attach to a human future. A young persons death always seems more tragic than that of some one who is very aged. When a person is murdered what is stolen is their future. Whether life begins at conception or not is irrelevant. A human future begins at conception. Whether that future belongs to you ar someone else it should remain inviolate and sacred. Stealing a human future remains as morally wrong no matter at what point it's taken

Sylvie in Ottawa
said

So, I guess the whole "We're not going to reopen the abortion debate" was just another lie by the Conservative Party.Typical. They didn't want anything to do with this idea when they were a minority government. But now that they have a majority, they will reopen the abortion debate against the wishes of the Canadian people.

NOTATORY
said

I think this would be a worthwhile study. This might be the only good idea that has come out of this party and I'm not surprised it came from a backbencher

MikeM
said

Here we go again! The Reform will never stop puching their agenda!

Proud canadian
said

Its about time.
Science has proven that there is a heart beat as early as two weeks.
if there is a heart beat then there is a brain controling it.
The person is alive as we specify yhat if there is a heart beat then they are alive.

Mitch in Kitch
said

Let's over-analyze this, spend $1 million on a "study" just to come to the same conclusions. Sounds like a plan! :)

MarcZ
said

Don't worry, we know when his political life will end... next election...