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Dion's carbon tax plan attacked by Layton, Harper
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Thu. Sep. 11 2008 5:14 PM ET
In a sure sign that politics makes strange bedfellows, Conservative Leader Stephen Harper and NDP Leader Jack Layton both took aim at Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's "Green Shift" carbon tax plan Thursday.
Harper lashed out at the plan, saying it would cause a catastrophic recession and fracture national unity.
"The purpose of their plan is not to lower emissions, it's to get money for the government, and that will cost every consumer," Harper said at a Montreal campaign stop.
Layton attacked Dion for the first time on the campaign trail, calling the Liberal plan "bad policy" and said the NDP's cap-and-trade plan for reducing emissions would be a more effective system than a carbon tax.
But Matthew Bramley, of the sustainable energy think-tank Pembina Institute, said the two leaders' criticisms of the carbon tax plan is not backed up by the facts.
"Mr. Harper and Mr. Layton's opposition to carbon taxes is contradicted by leading economics and business organizations who say taxing pollution is a good way to harness market forces to fight global warming," Bramley said in a statement.
"There is no evidence to support Mr. Harper's claim that a modest carbon tax would cause a recession. In fact, Mr. Dion's proposed tax would need to be further increased to enable Canada to meet science-based targets for greenhouse gas reductions."
Both Norway and Sweden have had a carbon tax plan since the early 1990s.
According to an April 29, 2008 Guardian article, Sweden cut its overall carbon emissions by nine per cent between 1990 and 2006. Its economy grew by 44 per cent in that period.
Dion's "Green Shift" plan would tax fossil fuels, returning the costs in the form of income tax cuts.
The Liberals describe it as revenue and cost-neutral -- something Harper has dismissed as unrealistic.
John Williamson of the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation said on CTV Newsnet Thursday that Dion's plan was not truly "revenue neutral."
"This is a fiscal transfer from taxpayers to low income Canadians," he said. "That is not the definition of a tax neutral plan."
Another type of criticism
Harper used his strongest language yet to slam the Liberal leader's plan, saying it would fan separatist flames by putting too much power and money back in Ottawa's hands.
"The carbon tax will do more than undermine the economy," Harper said. "By undermining the economy and by re-centralizing money and power in Ottawa, it can only undermine the progress we have been making on national unity."
Harper said his party is the only one with a realistic election platform, suggesting the other parties would all either have to boost taxes or run a deficit to pay for the promises they are making on the campaign trail.
Dion defends plan
Dion, who began Day 5 of the campaign in New Brunswick, tried to sell the $15 billion plan to supporters at a pancake breakfast.
Many Liberals in the Maritimes have complained the plan is hard to sell to residents in provinces where much of the industry relies heavily on fuel, such as forestry, fishing and oil refinement.
He told the Saint John Board of Trade that Harper's criticism of the plan doesn't hold water.
"Stephen Harper said his plan for the country is to 'stay the course.' But we know the course he set in 2006 -- he has allowed what was a booming economy to hit a brick wall," Dion said.
"Even Statistics Canada admits that the struggling U.S. economy is outperforming Canada's economy. Statistics Canada reported yesterday that Canada's labour productivity has fallen for nine months straight. This is Canada's worst performance since 1990 - since Brian Mulroney."
He also criticized Harper, saying he is trying to turn every election issue into a debate on national unity.
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ARJAY
said
Layton (not Jack) in Moncton
said
Until we have answers for these real disasters, scientists shouldn't bother with this "global warming" nonsense.
There's just no evidence for it.
Calgarian
said
Marc Coquitlam B.C.
said
But I have to admit a bad word to use in any election campaign is Tax, since all that Canadians seem to worry about is their pocketbooks short term, the selfish society that we are. One day you and your children will wake up to see that all your money you saved will be worthless as the price of food becomes the domain of the rich, even with Harper's massive 2¢/L Diesel tax cut.
Kent in (West) Kelowna
said
BCSnowBunny
said
What are the people who live in cold areas (which is...ummm everyone north of the 49th) supposed to do when they can't afford their heating bill? Hmmm? How many people reading this right now are trying to put off firing up the furnace for as long as they can?? Hmmm? ... For that matter, how many people don't even have heat because they got behind last year and had their services cut off?? Hmmmm? How many people can barely afford the fuel to get to their 2, 3, even 4 jobs they have to work so they can put food on the table? Hmmm? How many people are already having to choose between buying groceries or paying bills at the end of each month? Hmmm? Is adding to the financial burden of working people really going to help anyone but the Liberals?
A carbon tax would affect far more people negatively than positively. I'm not saying in any way that we don't need to do something NOW to reduce the footprint we leave, but there has to be other ways, other incentives than more taxes on our already tax burdened society.
What good is a few dollars knocked off my income taxes in April when I'm clawing to survive the other 11 months out of the year?? Hmmm? I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Think about that when you are cold and hungry.
Dave - Calgary
said
I believe the Conservatives are taking a practical approach to a difficult problem. Let's try to keep the economy healthy in order to be able to afford to make changes that are environmentally friendly.
Kevin D
said
I agree that Canada is behind but at least we should learn from Europe's mistake and not just blindly follow them down the path they took.
Max
said
Why is he going to do about all the people that are dying in our hospital waiting rooms.
When is he going to talk to us about things that matter to all of us and not use the Dawson affair to run his campain. Lets move on Thousands of people spend endless hours in crowded waiting rooms in our third world contry hospitals.. Wake up! stop the bull slinging and say something inteligent or leave the party. We need a leader not a clown..
Toni
said
Scott in Regina
said
Furthermore, if Canada were to completely shut off all manufacturing, take every car off the road, close every coal fired plant, and shudder the tar sands, the reduction in overall worldwide greenhouse gas emissions would only be around 2%. Is this "plan" even worth persuing in the grand scheme of things?
CRA retiree
said
Is noone else concerned about the costs to,i.e., diesel fuel for public transportation, school buses, ambulances etc.. Watch public transit and property taxes hit the roof if this is implemented.
Roedy Green, Victoria BC
said
“Humanity is conducting an unintended, uncontrolled, globally pervasive experiment whose ultimate consequences could be second only to global nuclear war.”
~ Environment Canada
Diane VanHerk, Stewiacke, N.S
said
The liberals wouldn't know how to run a program without out of control costs.
Donald in Ottawa
said
Some day we will wake up and realize that we spent billions on an invented crisis and didn't spend our limited resources are solving the real problems of our time.
There - I guess that makes me a 'climate change denyer or is it denier?'.
Matt in Ottawa
said
I am assuming the answer to that is NO. The imfamous carbon tax Harper is saying will cost an election will show on your bills just as mush as his lame 1% GST cut does.
Read the policies / the plans and then make a judgement, The conservatives are creepy people with a hidden motive and agenda. Ask yourself if you want them in power! The last time we had a conservative majority the country we into debt, and a deep recession. Ontario elected a conservative gov't and hundreds of nurses were laid off by shirnking the public service, Think twice Canada. THINK TWICE BEFORE VOTING BLUE.
Faramir
said
No thanks
Robert
said
Dave of the borderlands
said
Tony
said
Market dropped over 1,000 points in a week and house prices are dropping still.
David Ben Mark (Kitchener)
said
Matt in Ottawa
said
Lets face it, far more thought and consideration needs to take place before intoroducing something like a green shift. Its not an election platform.
To all those who blame Harper for a recession, welcome to something called a global economy. We are not insulated from things that happen else where, IE the USA. So before you place blame solely on Harper, get a clue.
Personally I think all these politicians are usless and not one of them is a leader in any sense of the word. Its depressing to see the state of our democracy.
bd in sk
said
jane
said
And it's a little early in the campaign to bring the national unity horror show out of the hat, isn't it?!
Mimi
said
The $100 check that we all received will cover the carbon tax for my vehicle (4-seat sedan) for the next five years. I drive a comfortable mileage-reasonable vehicle.
rob
said
Colleen
said
That being said, I do believe we should do what we can to keep the planet as clean as possible - but not at the expense of our economy.
Edmonton John
said
The Green Shift doesn't involve a lot of money for individuals, so nobody is going to go broke.
Most are going to break even, and many stand to gain.
About the subject of taxation, you are not giving money to the government for them to keep, as many of you, including Harper, seem to suggest. It is senseless to say that a goverment collects taxes for its own sake. That may have been true in medieval monarchies but is a preposterous suggestion in this day and age.
Suffice it to say that you want to keep all your money for yourself. No shame in that.
But consider going to a stadium to enjoy a spectacle. If you want a good seat, you have to pay a premium. That's like a tax on your choice of seat.
Well, here the stadium is the world, and the spectacle is life and we have the best seats in the place, so don't you think you can dig a little deeper and quit whining for a change? Think about third world countries where they have no infrastructure or government, or education or healthcare. Is that what you would prefer?
They're up in the nosebleeds. If you don't want to pay taxes to live in the best country in the world, then head on up and join the other 90% of the world's population. You should feel privileged to pay your taxes in a nation as great as Canada.
Malcolm Seath, Don Mills, ON
said
Dave
said
-Food
-Gas
-Diesel
-Electricity
-Cost of living in general and will hurt every single Canadian everyday. For what ?
Maybe 200 to 300 dollars in saving's at end of year. I'm sorry i pay more in a month for all the important stuff and don't want to give government/Dion/liberals any more of my money. I will be voting Conservative again this year after all When Paul Martin had his government i got 300dollars back at tax time. then Harper took over i earned more during the year then i earned with martin as PM and i got 1700back. My Taxes went down, which meant more money for me to spend.
People who vote for more tax will disenfranchise and cause unity problems with everyone except Big Cities where they have good public transportation. I'm sorry that I'm forced to Drive cause i don't live in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and have a good public transportation.
Andre
said
Wake up people. The Green shaft is yet another Fiberal boondoggle right up there with the gun registry and the cancellation of the helicopter contracts.
Canada cannot afford another minute of Liberal mismanagement.
Steve Daly, Mississauga
said
Suddenly, Dion supports a massive new tax... for the 'environment'.
Think about it, if the Green Shaft was really about the environment then wouldn't Dion have left out the whole part about new spending? Face it, this is just tax and spend all over again.
The whole thing is a shell game, a massive confidence game perpetrated on the Canadian people by a man (Dion) who thinks the Canadian public is too stupid to see through it.
Meg
said
Vic
said
The funds were given thru a company to some institution. A great idea but what I dont get is: the plane still made the emissions! Planting trees is the only way to offset. Then again you would probably need the area of the Sahara and the only way to fight global warming is to cut all emissions worldwide - all of them.
Not 1990 emissions, try 1590. Have to get off of fossil fuels fast, period. It is the only hope for the environment. I like the Zenn car idea. - Clean air.
Ki-Som Victoria BC
said
Kurt
said
1) What percentage will this plan reduce emissions?
2) Why is the carbon tax being collected being used to fund new social programs? Is this really an environmental plan or just a tax reformation plan?
For example, a middle income family that earns 50000, with 2 kids, will get $827 dollars back to offset the increase of energy, food, clothing, etc.
A low income family of 15000 with 2 kids will receive $2224 to offset these costs.
Is it logical that this low income family will be using 3x the amount of energy that a middle income family will? Logically, the middle income earner will likely be using MORE energy. Why wouldn't they be getting more of his money back?
(This is data publishing in the green shift book)
This plan CLEARLY takes money out of the middle income earners pockets and funds NEW social programs (see tax increases) for lower income families.
I would support shifting to consumption from income paradigm if this inequality didn't exist. Also, weird idea for an ENVIRONMENTAL program, why not use the new tax increases being used to help fight poverty to fund new technologies, tax credits for efficient windows, cars, etc. Only 600 million out of 15 billion is set aside to fund new green technologies. There is more than 4 BILLION being used to fund this wealth redistribution scheme.
This is why I do not support this plan. It has no CLEAR emission reduction target and it takes my money and gives it to low income families. It's merely a wealth redistribution tax grab.
Dd
said
That is why he called the election. He didn't want to fight an election in a recession.
As for the carbon tax, Canadians have always said they were willing to pay to fight climate change. Well, here it is (insofar as you may or may not pay depending on how the tax is restructured). Time for Canadians to put their money where their mouths are.
If we don't start now, it'll be a lot more painful later!!!!
Wayne - Calgary
said
The government already makes enough money in taxes and the people? (i.e student loan - interest? where does that go to?
don lekei
said
Tax waste only, and that will be incentive for change. Tax garbage, to increase incentives to recycle. Tax clam-shell packaging, to cut the millions of litres of fuel wasted trucking and shipping air around the world (and plastics in our landfills).
Tax packaging - for every box-inside-of-a-box fine manufacturers.
Have different taxes for containers/trucks based on zone - 100mile - no tax, 5000 mile heavy tax.
If you are going to tax fuel, then provide tax relief on alternate fuels. In BC the carbon tax applies equally to Gasoline and Ethanol-blended fuels. No incentive.
Require permits to drive vehicles with less than 9L/100km fuel economy. Allow small, fuel-efficient cars to use express lanes with less passengers.
Gail (Hamilton)
said
Poor Farmer in MB
said
Voters have a choice between more taxes vs small taxes, and I know where everyone would go, cause the Liberal income tax saving for me personally amounts to a pitiful $350 a year. If the tax saving was $1200 a year maybe I'd consider it.
Cheng
said
Jake
said
1000 plus birds dead at Syncrude’s toxic tailing ponds in Northern Alberta (May 2nd, 2008)
500 plus birds dead in southwest corner of CFB Suffield, in south-eastern Alberta (Sept 9th, 2008)
Two headed fish Lake Athabasca, Alberta (Aug 19th, 2008)
You can ignore the birds, but I’m certain that the producers of the oil and the profiteers wont be fishing northern Alberta, maybe not even southern Alberta’s waters anytime soon, they’ll go somewhere where the birds aren’t dropping dead day after day…
THE WARNING IS CLEAR! DON’T IGNORE THE CANARY!!!
Demand more!
VOTE ABC!!!
Marion Moraga
said
Why such a rush to have the election so soon?
Because you know that the recession is almost here.
I really feel insulted when you think that the people of this country is stupid.
We working class people have been feeling the crunch in te economy for some time already. Why try to blame the Liberals for something that is happenning right at this moment.
Brian
said
Better to make industry and consumer products more energy efficient as well as continue technology into cleaner energy sources, like electricity for instance.
People talk about less cars on the road but if they were all emmisions free it would not matter.
A carbon tax will simply kill the economy and our way of life, there are better alternatives.
Canada should embark on the next great national program, an east-west power grid and then continue to develope the use of this clean energy.
Energy independance and a cleaner world are at our fingertips, we need only the will.
The Conservatives have supported this endeaver but we can do more, ecourage everybody to improve but without taking away the life we love.
John G (aka I'm just going to pass on this vote)
said
Mike - NWO
said
I am not arguing that the earth's tempature is climbing. That is proven, but, hownestly, I believe it is natural, not human caused. I'm not going to go into depth here about why I think that, but the evidence is there.
The fact of the matter is that everyone seems to need a "crisis" to deal with.. remember Y2K? How did that turn out?
The Liberals want to sacrifice our economy and my money to try to solve a problem that I believe does not exist. And there is no way that the plan will be revenue neutral on a person to person basis. Even the stout Liberal supporters must see this.
But if you are ademant on trying to change the climate and risk our way of living, go ahead, drink the Kool-Aid and vote Liberal.
RobO
said
Concerned
said
Having said this, however, we still need an enviromental plan that fits Canada. European countries are tiny compared to Canada and there high price of fuel does not hurt them as much as it would hurt us.
We need a plan that is creative and thoughtful for all our needs. A simple tax will not stop people from doing the things that they like. (Heating your house). It will create huge revenue for the govt that will be allocated to more social spending like daycare, healthcare etc. There will be no money left for them to research alternatives if they are going to make it neutral.
The large corporations, when hit with raising costs, will always pass those costs to consumers. They have no incentive to lower there emissions because it will never effect there bottom line.
The 4 big parties,( I added the greens and removed the Bloc) have to put there partisianship aside and come up with a comprehensive plan.
Our future is at stake as well as the planets. We as voters have to demand that the different parties work together on this. If not, we will have 1) No plan as put forth by the Conservatives. 2)Huge cost increases that will destroy the middle class as proposed bt the Liberals. 3) Carbon capture and trading for corporations that will drive the already fragile manufacturing secture from Ont to Mexico as proposed by the NPD.
GC
said
jmrSudbury
said
Climate change should be averaged over 60 years if not 120 years or more. Using only 30 years does not remove oceanic oscillation noise. TSI accounted for 41% of the 1930 to 1990 background warming. Instead of wasting time on CO2, we should fight real pollution and keep our economy as strong as possible.
John M Reynolds
Trent
said
I hope and pray that those who support the Green Shift further research and do some critical thinking on the issue and realize this will only become another burden on Canadians in this difficult time.
I think one strategy that could actually result in some changes is to increase government grants to those individuals or corporations who voluntarily improve their carbon footprint in their everyday life. Look at the governments Ecorebates incentives and it shows they truely do not care or want Canadians to try and reduce their dependance on fossil fuels, to achieve the maximum one time allowance of $5,000.00 I am looking at an incrimental renovation cost of $60,000 - $70,000. This will take approximately 20 years to realize any benefit from this, to me it is a bad investment.
SS in Vancouver
said
No one needs high horsepower SUV, trucks car etc unless you are hauling something at ACTUALLY NEEDS IT. The NA manufacturers built primarily these vehicles because people still wanted them not because they needed them. It the car culture that you see in TV ads that do not enough come close to real life. If you are in the bush (I use to live there - it was somewhat of a necessity but not always). Better battery capacity and other efficiency help..
If you do not, and I know we will, we will have to deal it. The C02 content during the prehistoric age was much higher than today and it produced a growing ability of plants that is much improved than today but produced less protein for a give amount today. So we will need to eat more to get the same amopunt of nutrition. Whether the animals can adapt is a question but it all come to this? What do we want to do? We will survive as a species but with a lot less (the overpopulation and energy/wealth distribution is the real cause of pollution/environment damage that we have today
brian
said
Wendy in Montreal
said
I say let's be happy we are finally calm here in Canada sure we have problems but in comparison to the U.S. we're at least getting to enjoy our lives more than ever and I commend Prime Minister Harper and I say keep up the good work and God Bless Canadians and our prime minister.
Jorja
said
H Flashman
said
A strategy to anchor a parties election platform on such a vaguely defined notion as a "revenue neutral" carbon tax, illustrates a party who has failed in the strategic process: no clear statement of value, premises completely vague, and now put in a position to defend the strawman of their own creation. If you can't implement and execute a campaign strategy, how can you execute the stategic management of government?
I would suggest that the Liberal powers have not assumed their parental responsibilities in keeping their little Dion from touching the burner. . . and so the Rae and Ignatief teams can now say, I told you so, but don't worry we'll make it better.
There's your debate.
Greg in the Hammer
said
It has always been market forces and demand driven by social mores and trends.
Taxing virtually everything Canadians use or need will only serve to turn this country into an economic wasteland.
Those of you touting the "successful" models being used in europe need to do some homework. Whether carbon tax or cap and trade, every single system in use has actually become a failure. Just because they haven't gone back doesn't mean it works. The EUs system has resulted in huge increases in transportation and utility costs forcing most nation to have to subsidize utilities which in turn has led to more taxation. In the UK same thing. Mortgage foreclosures are at an all time high because people can't afford to heat or run their homes. NONE OF THESE SYSTEMS HAS RESULTED IN ANY EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS.
Sure bring it on. Bankrupt us all.
NOT.
All for the Liberals
said
Gord
said
This green shaft will have an impact on the economy and this is not the time for such an experiment. Don't compare us to Europeans Canada is far larger. Everything gets shipped and that alone will increases the price of everything.
Dion points a finger at Harper for the down turn in the Economy. Did Harper cause a surge in oil prices? No. Did Harper cause the mortgage crisis in the US? No. As if any government could have stopped the down turn in the global economy. What a joker, it's more scare tactics... If Dion would have been PM and implimented his scheme we would be in crisis. We will be in crisis if he gets elected.
China, India and Russia must be part of the solution. But its not an excuse to do nothing. I live green and don't need or want the government to regulate or tax me.
To all liberals: stop waiting for the government to solve your problems. Get your heads out of your asses and vote for Harper.
Buy a new Car
said
In North America, are cars not the number one source of greenhouse gases? Is Dion going to add a carbon tax to every new car being sold? What would that do to the economy of Ontario? How many seats would he risk in the Commons?
This carbon tax has the potential to be a disaster.
Nfld in Ont
said
Dion’s comparison of Canada’s growth to the U.S. is like comparing chalk to cheese.
The American’s may seem to have more growth but remember, they are running a deficit of over $400 billion for 2008 and projected to be over $500 billion in 2009. That’s approximately 3% of the U.S. economy; so claiming 1% growth in America is a bit of a stretch.
Harper has maintained economic growth (albeit small) in the face of a world economic turndown while maintaining a budget surplus (one month in the red does not constitute running a budget deficit). These may not be the multi-billion dollar surpluses of the Liberals but that’s mostly because he’s lowered the GST and other income/business taxes and left more of my money in my pocket.
I hate to think how bad the economy would be if Dion were in power.
And what this $8.4 billion promise by Layton??
Better the devil you know!
Carl Q
said
1) Thinking inovles thinking THROUGH. A good short-term strategy might not take care of your long-term interests.
2) Legislation is not good if it will not withstand the test of time. Ask yourself: "Will this new law survive a decade? ...a century? Is my aim really to CAUSE INSTABILITY by investing a LOT of energy in things that won't survive?"
3) Smashing & fracturing our society, our environment, & our esteemed institutions will achieve the following: Alberta separation ...so is that what you are really up to?? ...cleaving the oil giant off of Canada (maybe for the USA?)? That's what it looks like to me: A stunt to hammer government & foster Alberta patriotism. No wonder Harper looks like he's hiding something very profound.
I'm growing very concerned that we need to invest more in education in Canada. An "advanced" society can aspire to be more civilized.
Acroyear
said
Really? I work in an international industry and if you ask most Germans they'd say it crippled their economy, especially following the reunificaiton of Germany when that part had to start making the targets. Caron tax caused a massive recession. (Note, Germany started this waaaay back in the 70's)
Having said that, I'm not a NeoCon (I hate when they are called Tories) but Dion's plan will not work. It sets no goals, it only expects that market pressure caused by increased costs will make people go greener. I've yet to say any Canadian government in my 43 years every predict the markets correctly. Ever.
Incentives/financial assistance to go Green, paid for my punishments for those who don't. The fines you could levee on the paper industry alone would probably buy the Navy a couple of ships.
This would also give competitive pressures...if one steel mill (for example) would be given big tax break for cleaning up, and one had huge fine, then the greener one could lower its prices while the other would either loose money or raise it's prices...and then loose money.
Even privately. For example, I own a 78 Monaco I only drive in the summer. I love the car, but you know what, maybe I SHOULD have to pay more for the priviledge to drive the big V8.
You need to have both carrot and stick, not just the stick. And you need to punish those who actually violate, not everyone because "they just won't listen and go green"
I have no idea who to vote for, I hate the NeoCons (they are NOT the Tories) but I just can't support Dion's plan.
Ed Samson
said
Mr. Harper and his “reform” government already has our country tittering on the edge of a deficit. If the truth were known a deficit is probably closer to the reality. But I suspect that we won’t know the truth of that for a few months yet. I’m 61 years old and have always had a keen interest in politics and followed all elections closely. I have never been scared of any of the party leaders in any previous elections. But, frankly, Mr. Harper scares the S**T out of me. I lived in Alberta for a number of years during the Ralph Cline government. (Ya Ralph Bucks – now there’s my kind of Conserative) Although I consider myself a Liberal (rather lonely one in Alberta) I had a lot of time for Premier Cline, a decent down to earth person. But Mr. Harper is a different quintal of fish. Like Danny Williams here in NL, Mr. Harper is hungry for power. Here in NL he have made the mistake of giving Danny to much power, we have made him King. Let’s not make the same mistake on the national level. I have a theory that Danny and Stevie are a little bit alike in SOME respects and that is why they are often locking horns.
I would be comfortable with a minority government of any flavor.
You can bet that “Green” is going to cost us no matter which party is elected. Not that I have a great problem with that. And I’m not rich; in fact I am living solely on my 28 ½ CF Pension. WE have used and abused this planet, and continue to do so – but at some point we have to take responsibility for our part in the devastation of God’s creation.
Max in Mississauga
said
Start re-writing your resume Mr. Harper, your day's are numbered.
Po
said
I have yet to see a significant impact of the 2% GST drop to my finances (and I've bought big-ticket items). Oh and I don't drive a Diesel powered car, so that doesn't help me. I did have some Income Trusts, but we all know what you did to those.
Harper once said that the biggest kind of fraud was not keeping one's promises... well Mr. Harper, you've managed to make yourself into quite a bit of a fraud in the last couple of years.
Jack in BC
said
My biggest problem is all the indirect increases. Sure maybe the tax break will cover the direct cost of natural gas increases etc. But as it has been pointed out, transporation costs going up means that pretty much everything you buy (unless you shop exclusively at your local fruit stand & try that in the Canadian winter) will go up in price. Thus, this tax cannot be revenue neutral. It isn't taxing pollutors if it ends up taxing my food - I've got to eat!
Davey boy
said
As the Scribe sees it
said
JYS
said
Tim
said
The sooner it's dealt with the less it will cost to fix.
Harper's plan is not realistic. He has to do better than simply criticize the Green Shift plan.
Antani
said
MB BARRY
said
Grenn Shift - how is it revenue neutral?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I have a middle class family in Ontario. The carbon tax: 15 billion in added taxes and 15 billion back. So it's revenue neutral for government. But wait. He has a few billion to help those industries that are unhappy with the new tax (fishers/truckers). He has a few billion for new green innovation. He has a few billion to give to the poor to ofset higher prices for fuel(home heating and electricity). So I count 6-7 billion going to special groups, poor, business and innovation. So for every dollar he collects from me he has aleady spend 40-50 cents. So the Green Shift will not be revenue neutral to me. it will be yet another program to shift wealth to the poor and big business. Am I wrong?
RS
said
Norm
said
Bob,Calgary
said
1. There is absolutely no proof that global warming,if it is happening, is man made.
2.India has already said it will not reduce emmissions and has even said it does not agree that global warming is man made.
China will continue to build coal fired power plants no matter what the world does.
3. Europe's success whether
it be carbon tax,regulation or cap and trade has been minimal.
4. Scientific studies have shown that the high cost of combatting emmissions could be better spent fighting other problems such as disease in poor countries, other pollution etc.,etc.
Methinks Canadians, in their usual aren't we proud of ourselves way, want to be seen to do something about CO2 but reaaly will only end up paying for another slug of
Liberal social porograms. When will Canadians learn that the Libs want money in order to spend on nebulous feel good programs that solve nothing but simply beggar the population.
brian hancox
said
We all need to give our heads a shake. Why? Gun control estimated cost - 5 million dollars. Gun control after the Liberal's bureaucracy - 5 billion dollars and counting. Green Shift Plan - 35 billion. Green Shift Plan after the LIberal bureaucracy is built - PRICELESS.
The same would happen with childcare. The cost of their bureaucracy they love to build would cost us all, as well as our children and their children. I am tired of Liberals always discovering new ways to wanting to get into my wallet.
Jamie, Ottawa
said
Fracturing national unity? A carbon tax? Come on!
I find it insulting that Harper, an economist, doesn't offer a clear explanation on how he came to this conclusion about a recession. What does he mean by "undermine"?
Instead, he's trying to woo me through fearmongering. Sadly, I do think I lot of people get scared easily. So if I was him I'd probably use the same tactic.
Al in Cranbrook
said
Definitely what we should bring to Canada, eh?
Yeah, you bet.
P.A.
said
TheOracle
said
"national unity" has always been tenuous in this country and preserving "national unity" should mean more than appeasing one region.
Bitter regional feelings are exacerbated by the tendency of many sucessive governments (including yours Mr Harper) to constantly pander to Quebec voters via extra money and consideration that the rest of Canada does not receive.
Western alienation is alive and well. Here in AB where I live many actually don't understand that if the Ontario economy fails the Canada's economy as a whole suffers, they foolishly rejoice when another manufacturing plant closes down.
They are so embittered they really think this province could be an "island" within Canada (this sentiment was more than encouraged by your own "firewall" proposal) and that somehow "the east" drags them down.
Oepn your eyes citizens, and realize that Canada is good idea. The various regions strengths compliment each others economies and offset each others weaknesses to create a well rounded diversity of endeavours.
Unfortunately, I can't recall any government or political party that has done anything in the last 30 yerars to drive this point home to Canadians.
This includes you Mr. Harper.. so don't be to full of yourself as a saviour of "national unity"
Mel from Calgary
said
What this indicates is he has not changed his mind on Alberta building a "firewall" around the province only now he envisions it for each province.
DRH
said
Yes, europian countries have a carbon tax in place that is somewhat effective, however they also have rapid transit that you can cross there country in about six hours. Six hours on rapid transit in a forty below environment won't get you across a province. I'm sure the Liberals will make the cost of your "canapass" revenue neutral? You can't compare apples & oranges. Canada emits less than 2% of the worlds green house gasses and yet all you Liberals want the rest of us to provide 110% of the worlds environmental cures out of our pockets at the risk of destroying our economy. Please go back to sleep and wake up in say about fifty years.
Doug BC
said
"Robin the Hood" asks if we should leave the issue of gllobal warming to the next generation.Of course not.We should ALL be doing all we can to "clean up our act",so to speak.But paying more taxes will simply not do the job.
I would,though,ask "Robin the Hood",and millions of socialists in Canada,if they think we should pass on our massive national debt to the next generation.I,for one,do not think that's fair.
None of the issues vital to us today can be taken in isolation.Each issue impacts our ability to deal with other issues.If our economy fails,the next generation will be so busy paying off our debt,that they won't have the ability to improve social programs or utilize technology that makes energy consumption cleaner.
In case it hasn't been noticed,our biggest trading partner is facing huge economic challenges.God help us all if they can't sort them out.Mr.Harper seems to be the only one who has been consistent in recognizing how perilous our situation will be if we remain mired in debt and high taxes,at a time when we have no markets that can afford our exports.
The ECONOMY is the key that makes it possible to make headway on ALL other social issues.We ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT return to borrowing money from the next generation of Canadians.Debt enslaves us as effectively as any jail can.
DGL
said
Paul
said
Back tax on the users is the way to go. If you can afford to pollute, you can afford to contribute to the solution environmental energy conservation and reducing GHG's.
Ian
said
JOhn
said
Dion in power will shift our economy, to a green economy.
Rick
said
Environmental Gains - 0
David Cromwell
said
Durward
said
It's nice to say others are doing it but the reality is they are trying now to get away from it and do you know why?
It put them in reccession..England, Italy, Germany. England and Germany! In reccession. Europe's supposed economic engines! Due to envirofundamentalist carbon taxes.
Rob, Vancouver
said
When Harper, or for that matter any of them, makes completely incorrect statements, they need to be challenged. I would encourage your reporters to fact check the statements of all politicians, and present them as part of any article that quotes them.
Wake Up People!!
said
If Canadian people turn down the green shift please do not stand on the world stage and try to preach to third world countries for reducing carbon footprints. Countries like India, Chin and Indonesia definitely agree with Harper about bypassing the wakeup call from mother Earth/Nature.
Over Taxed
said
RC, Fredericton
said
For those in the natural resources industries, the cost of their diesel to catch fish, mine minerals, cut wood, pump oil all goes up. Then add to that the extra 5% cost to process those things into useable commodities. Then add to that the extra cost to get these things to market.
It's a multiplier effect. And that is more than the original 5%
When the diesel fuel cost goes down, the reverse is true and the multiplier effect works in the favour of everyone...
Results speak for themselves.
Trust Harper to lower your taxes and allow you greater freedom to administer your own affairs and your money.
D in NS
said
That said, and considering the multitude of new projects the Liberals propose...Mr. Harper brings up a good point: Where will the money for the new programs come from? What will have to be cut?
Or, will we actually see a personal income break after all? ... when one puts their plans on paper there are only a few ways they can possibly pay for the new initiatives.
They must either keep the revenues from the Carbon Tax to fund new initiatives, cut other programs... or run a deficit.Which will it be?...
I fear that much of what is coming out of Mr. Dion's campaign is reactionary rather than being based on a sound economic plan for Canada.
Let us all consider this when casting our vote.
James
said
Chuck
said
I'm growing very concerned that we need to invest more in education(!) in Canada because a lot of people are clearly growing up to be morons despite our supposed status as an "advanced" society.
Tips for cons:
1) Thinking inovles thinking THROUGH. (A good short-term strategy might not take care of your long-term interests.)
2) Legislation is not good if it will not withstand the test of time. Ask yourself: "Will this new law survive a decade? ...a century? Is my aim really to CAUSE INSTABILITY by investing a LOT of energy in things that won't survive?"
3) Smashing & fracturing our society, our environment, & our esteemed institutions will achieve the following: Alberta separation - is that what you are really up to?? Cleaving the oil giant off of Canada (maybe for the USA?)? That's what it looks like to me - a stunt to hammer government & foster Alberta patriotism. No wonder Harper looks like he's hiding something very profound.
lowell
said
You need some vision. In their quest to reduce their living expenses, consumers will have a higher demand for automobiles that conserve energy like hybrids ( better than gas guzzlers but still not the best). This will cause automobile manufacturers to become even more innovative thus creating new kinds of jobs (so called green economy). Houses will be built better with more emphasis on things like heat conservation which will cause more innovation, new types of companies and more jobs. By creating this tax, it will drive more innovation to create newer and more efficient products to reduce the carbon footprint thus reducing the taxes. People seem to think that the carbon tax is a money grab. Its purpose is not to generate revenue for the government since it is going to be offset by other tax decreases. It is a paradyme shift of sorts to get people to change their ways and to kickstart new ideas in generating new economic activity. How do we create more jobs? The focus on the carbon footprint will initiate a new economy with products and services geared to its reduction.
Taxed enough B.C.er
said
Dennis
said
arthur
said
In this way you discourage the use of fossil fuels and encourage the development of new technology such as hydrogen cars. It's a proven technique that is used in many countries.
Of course every change in the tax system has gainers and losers. For example the increase in income tax and decrease in the GST that Harper instituted hurt me.
William
said
cp.
said
Also something to think about. Another name for the Carbon Tax is the National Energy Program II. If this is brought into place, don't worry about Quebec separating; worry about the West separating and leaving Central Canada shopping on the global market for energy.
Taxman
said
This is a tax on the poor. Pure and simple. Why the NDP do not stress this is beyond me. Maybe they also don't understand it...
Howard Holtman
said
Nanook
said
Steve
said
pp
said
We are well on our way to a recession - why do you insist on stating that we are not?
Sheesh - I love it that an educated economist can be so blind (I am being sarcastic here as he darn well knows we are headed for a recession) - but I guess that he has to be positive for the country in saying we are not in for a recession - unless of course we vote for the carbon tax!!!
What with the Ontario economy flatlining and the auto sector failing miserably and fuel and food prices sky rocketing - well, we don't need the carbon tax to give us a recession - we are well on our way to that as it is!
Mark
said
So it was nowhere near neutral but has in fact been a financial sink hole.
Now I'm supposed to believe the Liberals again on a 'revenue neutral' tax?
No thanks. Once bitten, twice shy. I agree with Mr. Harper. No tax is ever 'revenue neutral'. This sort of behaviour is within the very DNA of the Liberal party: Tax me and spend.
Facts the tree hugers didn't tell you ....
said
FACT: Climatologists are telling us all the evidence points to the fact that the earth is actually cooling NOT warming.
FACT:
For too long people have checked their brains at the door when it comes to believing these enviro-freaks who have deliberately misled the public about CO2, pollution and GHG.
FACT:
Air pollution is something we need to do something about in cities like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Winnipeg and Ottawa.
FACT:
Air pollution is out of control and thousands of Canadians are dying each year because of air pollution.
FACT:
One immediate and simple solution is to use ethanol fuel until we can find better alternate energies.
FACT:
Ethanol fuel can reduce air pollution compared to regular gas by up to 30%. That would have an immediate impact on cities like Toronto whose population is slowly being poisoned to death by air pollution.
A bit of tax now or a HECK of a lot later!
said
I am educated and was unemployed for a duration after the tech/bust and 9/11 and thankfully I was able to take advantage of the government support system at the time.
I am definitely glad that I had been paying taxes and paying into the EI program all those years before.
Most of us don't realize until much later why we pay all these taxes/premiums here in Canada.
If we tax the dirty fuels, then perhaps we'll be able to convince companies to start investing in cleaner technologies since it would be cheaper on their bottom line . Companies like Purolator have been "evaluating" hybrid diesel/electric truck conversions now for 3-4 yrs but still haven't committed to fully retro-fitting their fleet.
Yes, we might pay a bit more now to reduce emissions or we can pay a hell of a lot more later for our healthcare and insurance, damage from weather (as Haligonians how they feel) all because of the increased effects of climate change/pollution.
Paul in Beautiful BC
said
Harper's policy is do nothing while the other parties' policies are to do something. The choice is clear, let's do something and let's do it now.
David
said
Buba
said
Harper only knows how to play on peoples' baser instincts --- GREED and FEAR.
This is right from the Karl Rove textbook on dirty politics.
calgarian
said
We are already on the fringe of a recession but I guess that must be hard to see from your high horse. Ask the manufacturing sector, watch the TSX, the banking sector even your precious resource sector.
RobO
said
The Duke of Regina
said
Shingles, Winnipeg
said
Jim in Edmonton
said
Why a TAX?
said
1. Ban all vehicles that are not fuel efficient. No big SUVs and no big trucks for city dwellers.
2. Ban all appliances that are not enery efficient. Only high efficiency furnaces, wahers, dryers, water heater etc.
3. Give tax write offs to individuals who make energy efficient upgrades to their homes. You could write off costs for improving insulation, efficiency window and furnaces.
In the end we would have to pay more to be more energy efficient, but instead of giving it to the government I would decide where I want to spend it.
Why a TAX?
said
1. Ban all vehicles that are not fuel efficient. No big SUVs and no big trucks for city dwellers.
2. Ban all appliances that are not enery efficient. Only high efficiency furnaces, wahers, dryers, water heater etc.
3. Give tax write offs to individuals who make energy efficient upgrades to their homes. You could write off costs for improving insulation, efficiency window and furnaces.
In the end we would have to pay more to be more energy efficient, but instead of giving it to the government I would decide where I want to spend it.
John E
said
Max in Vancouver.
said
So, I pay more tax (yeah right) and the government (Libs) take this tax and they reduce the carbon emmissions by doing.....????
Oh, I get it. Everyone will be so short of money, they won't be able to buy fuel and that will reduce the emmissions. What a plan!
gibson
said
Tony
said
L'ow and middle income families dont need a higher cost of living; they need a lower cost. Get with it Dion.
Your ol' pal Jimmy.
said
Jay
said
Another day, another ConJob. So what do the Tories stand for exactly? So far they have just been attacking.
Environmental Welfare Class
said
Wealthy people. Do you really think a few huindred exta bucks in a tax will stop the wealthy from buying their Hummers and mansions? I don't think so. Carbon reduction for the rich = 0
Poor people. Well, they can't afford to upgrade windows, buy efficient cars etc. to save money. The government will give them more money to offset the added costs for their basic needs (home heating electricity etc), so they have no incentive to change their lifestyle. Carbon reduction for the poor = 0.
Middle class. They will be hit with the highest taxes of all (i.e. no handouts for them)and they will be forced to reduce fuel use to make ends meet without lowering their standard of living. I know; I already keep my house at 65 in the winter and 77 in the summer, and I upgraded my insulation so I am not sure where else I can save. I will have to find more. Carbon reduction for middle class = lots.
So the way I see it, I will be part of a new environmental welfare class.
So the brunt of the reduction of the carbon foot print for Canadians will be borne by the middle class.
lowell
said
The problem is that not a lot of people are going to change their lifestyle voluntarily. We are too used to our creature comforts and we are at a stage which calls for more drastic action in order to give future generations a decent place to live. Companies are not implementing pollution controls voluntarily. Look at the Alberta tar sands. There are but a small number of companies who feel they have some ethical responsibility to do their bit for this cause. There are very few leaders willing to take a course of action, albeit the right one that is a hard sell to the public. After all, the end goal for the politician is to get elected and most politicans tell voters what makes them feel good, not what is going to cause them any discomfort. Then we end up with a leader like Harper who has absolutely no idea what constitutes a sound and effective environmental policy. Someone mentioned that the real reason for him not wanting Elizabeth May at the debates is because she was going to make him look bad in his ignorance about environmental issues. There may be some truth to that. The economists and environmental experts who are advocating the carbon tax can't be all wrong. Tying economic value to environmental protection is a good idea.
BB in B.C.
said
M D Kerr
said
I can see the need to reduce fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emmisions, but yet another tax is the last thing Canadians need.
Let's try grants, bonuses and tax exemptions for grass roots Green initiatives.
Buried in BC's taxes.
Trent
said
A carbon taxation program is very regressive
said
It is a punitive method of taxation which is backwards thinking rather than a progressive approach by government that would encourage Canadians to conserve and switch to alternate energies.
Another serious concern about "Green Shift Taxes" are the problems associated with their overbearing and widespread application which will not only hurt the transportation sector, the agricultural sector and automotive sector but it will also be inflationary and drain the economy of much a needed stimulus at a time when we need all the help we can get. By removing tens of billions of dollars out of the economy through carbon taxation Dion will be strangling our economy at the worst possible time.
This is not a good program and in fact would be detrimental to all Canadians everywhere.
Marie, Ottawa
said
What needs to happen to make this a "popular" topic again? All those people without clean water, despite being out of the public eye, still don't have clean water. This is but one example. Lack of running water. Shoddy housing. Lack of schools. This is Canada! How can we accept this? We need to cut through the stereotypes and misinformation, and work together to find a peaceful solution for everyone involved. The more the government ignores this situation, the more inflamatory it will become. I am a proud Canadian, but I want to know what our future leader will do about our national shame, and what is the plan to make things right?
Grenn Shift - how is it revenue neutral?
said
Larry
said
Whether or not it is the right solution to address environmental issues, its impact would be to fundamentally change the economy - to move us away from a carbon-dependent economy. This is a huge structural change and the economic costs of such a change will be tremendous.
Consider other structural changes we have made and the resulting transitional cost on businesses:
- free trade
- elmininate the manufacturers tax in favour of the GST
- the metric system
- National Energy Program
Regardless of whether you think these changes were positive or negative, there is no denying that the transitional costs for business was huge. These transitional costs bankrupted many businesses and dislocated huge numbers of jobs.
Whether the carbon tax is a good or bad policy for the environment, it is simply the wrong time to do it with the current global economic downturn.
Jack
said
DRH
said
Marcel
said
Al Ottawa
said
Here's my unsolicited opinion:
1) if you tax poluters and polution related stuff, the cost will get simply passed down to us, and very little will change. Polution and GHG won't improve, government will get more money and we will get poorer.
2) if the government would enact legistlation which would actually close down companies and manufacturers if they don't meet actual improvements, then it will still cost us, but there would actually be some change!
To avoid being closed, companies would make the changes. Of course it would mean that the cost of those improvements would still be passed down to us while the upgrades were happenning but there would be actual improvements for our environment and the cost to us would be mostly temporary. With the Greenshift, the taxes would never end and we'd get little to no environmental improvements...
Am I the only one seeing how pathetic our government parties are???
J.C.
said
bunny
said
Robin the Hood
said
Mark M
said
The amount of bureaucracy involved alone is staggering and will likely cost millions, if not billions!!! And the chance for boon-doggles with this huge new system hasn't been this high since the gun registry.
Sorry I'd rather keep the money in my hands and deal with my own energy bills than "trust" Dion with my money so he can decide who deserves it - which probably does not include middle class me.
I've got two words for ya...CASH GRAB! Revenue neutral for the government maybe, but not for all us middle class.
Lowell
said
If you tax them, they will react by downsizing, and cutting back on their cost of doing business which has negative impact on the econmy. The public needs to make changes to their lifestyles and the carbon tax provides incentives to do that. If you are doing an activity that is causing more harm to the environment, you might change that behavior if a tax is levied against you. I think it boils down to the fact that people want their cake and they also want to eat it. They want to protect the environment but they don't want to pay for it. It's like nobody wants to pay any taxes yet they want safe roads, a great health care system and free education. Dion is on the right track and even Harper knows it but he is so power hungry that he will do anything to get re-elected with a majority.