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Public Safety Minister Vic Toews responds to Opposition questions in the House of Commons Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2012. CSIS CSIS

Canada 'does not condone torture,' Toews says

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CTV National News: Debate on torture tactics
Does Canada use information that comes from torture? The answer is yes if lives are at stake. CTV's Ottawa bureau chief Robert Fife has more details.
Question period: MPs debate torture policy
After being question by the NDP, Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said Canada 'does not condone torture' during question period on Tuesday.
Power Play: CSIS allowed to use torture info
NDP defence critic David Christopherson says if CSIS continues to use information gathered from torture, torture will continue. Liberal defence critic John McKay says accepting torture information is a moral slippery slope.

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Public Safety Minister Vic Toews responds to Opposition questions in the House of Commons Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2012. CSIS CSIS

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Public Safety Minister Vic Toews responds to Opposition questions in the House of Commons Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2012.

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Date: Tue. Feb. 7 2012 11:33 PM ET

Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said Canada "does not condone torture," but the government expects its spy agencies to make protecting Canadian lives their "overriding priority."

Toews was responding to Opposition questions in the House of Commons Tuesday about a Canadian Press report that contains details of a 2010 government directive to CSIS. The directive, written by Toews, instructs the agency to use information that may have been extracted through torture when public safety is at stake.

The directive, obtained through an Access to Information request, reverses previous Conservative government policy that CSIS should avoid relying on information it knows was gleaned through torture.

During question period in the House of Commons Tuesday, NDP MP Jack Harris accused the government of "showing utter contempt" for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms with a "sudden passive endorsement" of torture.

"The Maher Arar torture affair and the Afghan detainee debacle taught us the dangers of courting Canadian complicity in the use of torture," Harris said in the House.

"But instead of moving forward, this government is moving Canada backwards. The public safety minister has directed CSIS to use information that is extracted through torture. As long as there is a market for information derived from torture, torture will exist. Why is this government getting Canada into the torture business?"

Toews replied that "Canada does not condone torture, and does not engage in torture. CSIS and its employees are bound by Canadian law. Our government expects CSIS and security agencies to make the protection of life and property the overriding priority."

Under further questioning by Harris, Toews said information gleaned by torture "is always discounted. But the problem is, can one safely ignore it if Canadian lives and property are at stake?"

A question by Liberal Leader Bob Rae asking that Toews table the directive in the House and explain how it holds up against Canada's obligations under international law was answered by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney, who repeated Toews' assertions about the protection of life and property being of "overriding priority."

The directive, as quoted by CP, says that in "exceptional circumstances," where there exists a threat to human life or public safety, urgency may require CSIS to "share the most complete information available at the time with relevant authorities, including information based on intelligence provided by foreign agencies that may have been derived from the use of torture or mistreatment."

The document acknowledges that under certain circumstances, confirming the source of information provided by a foreign agency may be impossible. However, ignoring pertinent information based only on its source would represent "an unacceptable risk to public safety."

"Therefore, in situations where a serious risk to public safety exists, and where lives may be at stake, I expect and thus direct CSIS to make the protection of life and property its overriding priority, and share the necessary information -- properly described and qualified -- with appropriate authorities."

The decision to use information that was gleaned via torture rests with the CSIS director or deputy director for operations, and must be made "in accordance with Canada's legal obligations."

The public safety minister must also be informed when such a decision is made.

Amnesty International Canada criticized the directive Tuesday, saying that intelligence obtained through torture "has no place in the justice system, full stop."

"The bottom line is that as long as torturers continue to find a market for the fruit of their crimes, torture will continue," said secretary general Alex Neve. "Firmly rebuffing torturers when they offer up information extracted through pain and suffering is a critical plank in the wider campaign to eradicate torture once and for all."

In 2006, Justice Dennis O'Connor issued an 822-page report into the Maher Arar torture affair in which he advised CSIS and the RCMP to review their policies governing how they supply information to foreign governments with questionable human rights records.

The report also urged the federal government to develop policies to address situations when Canadians are detained in countries where they are at risk of being tortured.

Arar was detained by U.S. authorities in 2002 and deported to Syria, where he falsely confessed to having ties to terrorists while under duress from torture at the hands of his captors.

With files from The Canadian Press

Comments are now closed for this story

James
said

I have next to me a magical rock that keeps tigers away. I see no tigers in my immediate vicinity, therefore the rock works. This is the Con argument supporting human rights violations. When you're willing to sell out the principals your country was founded on to support a painfully stupid argument you know you're a proud Conservative. Shine on you delusional diamonds, shine on.


Will
said

CSIS has a responsibility to consider all information, no matter how obtained. The weight attached to it may vary but to ignore potentially important information simply because you don't approve of the method is irresponsible and incompetent.


Senior taxpayer
said

Power has gone to these cons heads and they are out of control, this is getting scary... Canadians better wake up soon..


DC in AB
said

I have no problem with this. If this means that we the many are protected, then I'm all for it."We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- Sir Winston Churchill


bindrdunit
said

So what are we saying; here is some information that may useful to protect Canadians and their interests, but because we suspect some foreign agency used torture to obtain it, we as Canadians of the highest ethics must ignore this information and let whatever happen to our people? At least this government does not let stupidity trump security.


Dan
said

I am not into the torture part, I find it distasteful but nescessary.
For those who think that the information obtained should not be followed to see if there would be an attack ask yourselves this question. If the information taken was about an attack that would kill a very close love one of yours, like a daughter, mother, son or wife. Would you still feel as strong if this info could save their lives? Would it be ETHICAL for the government to just ignore this information knowing that your love ones may die? I do not think so. I am sure that these same people that say not to torture and do not use the info would be the first ones complaining about the innefficiency of our gorvernment.
I am not in law enforcement so in case you want to say that I am not, but I do not envy CSIS position because they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. Think about it.


ian
said

So here's the old argument that Bush invaded Iraq when there were no weapons of mass destruction. Let's see, the UN sent in an inspector who was continually stonewalled by Saddam Hussein and wasn't allowed to do his job. Saddam would kick him out of the country when it appeared he was getting close to finding weapons. So Bush on the advice of the CIA and these other events decides to invade Iraq. Now the people of Iraq were being led by a brutal dictator who appeared to be on the verge of attacking the West. But lo and behold the US can't find any WMD so of course hindsight being 20-20, Bush is the bad guy. All you armchair quarterback world leaders would do things better I suppose. I've actually spent time in the Middle East speaking with ordinary Iraqis who lived through the brutality of the Hussein years where their fathers were taken from them in the middle of the night by the Republican Guard. But that was a world away from us and it didn't matter because you hated Bush and found fault in everything he did. It was because he was a Republican and you were not so he was the enemy. What has your Obama done for you I ask.


Brian
said

Yes torture is against Int'l law....but so is blowing up innocent people. So I say if it saves lives I really don't care how they obtained the information or who obtained it. I won't lose any sleep by some terrorist being waterboarded.


Prof. Pye Chartt
said

We value things we use for a purpose. If they were of no purpose, they would be of no value, and, thus, we wouldn't use them. Though I understand the underlying rationale put forth by Minister Toews and his Conservative government, using information gleaned from torturous efforts places a de facto value on torture. That is wrong. (@ Niagara George: Believe it or not, George, sometimes I have to leave my office, and my computer, to do face-time with clients. I just returned home. Thanks.)


Dan from McMurray
said

All good and well. The country may not condone torture, however it is a necessary and effective tool when needed. If applying said pressure on a suspect(s) who is/are potentialy holding knowledge of suspected harm or unsavory activity, then go ahead..."work" it out of the individual(s).


Property?
said

Is anyone else concerned with the wording by Mr. Kenney? That "life and property" are the override for this. Get ready Canada. You will be tortured to glean information that can "protect property" as our government has now mandated. Maybe if we are lucky we can also be involved in torturing others abroad to protect property. Especially if it belongs to the rich.


Disgusting
said

Hand people over knowing they will be tortured so we can be sure to get any information possible. Check. Allow our government to use information attained through torture. Check. I wonder what is next? Maybe we should just allow torture in Canada. After all, if one person being tortured could possibly save 2 lives, as many Conservatives here are pointing out, let's hand out the pliers and electric cables.


Duke
said

I never have been able to wrap my head around the concept of "Rules of War", kind of doesn't mesh with the concept of "Kill or be killed". I suppose the concept of rules regarding torture suggest "I won't torture your guys, if you don't torture mine". By Vic Toews accepting statements made while being tortured, by deduction, it suggests allowing the application of torture, otherwise by definition no statements during torture could be made.
In summary, Mr. Toews, there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant... no half ways, you support torture or you don't, black or white, night or day.

Pass the waterboard please!!!!



KC BC
said

This has nada to do with Canada condoning torture. It has everything to do with using available information to prevent Canadians from being killed or hurt. I agree that Canadian agencies have a duty to use information that "may" have been gleaned by the use of torture or other means to keep us safe. Information about a possible attack obtained from Saudi Arabia is just as valuable as information obtained from Austria. Keep us safe ! Many posts on this forum are mere bashing of our government. Put in another topic and you will get the same canned response with a slight change in the words.


Goldens
said

I am amazed at the comments here on this topic. They are saying that if CSIS learns that a Canadian city is about to be attacked and that thousands of Canadians will probably die. Cisis should sit on their hands and let it happen because it was information obtained from a third party that used torture to obtain that information. Are we as a people really that stupid or are the comments from people who wish us harm?


Tony
said

Let's admit it: This will happen behind the scenes whether we like it or not, and I assure you it's probably been happening for years. This is our safety, not just as a nation, but as a global population, that may sometimes be at risk.


dwayne in da peg
said

Wow, do any of the people out there getting their shorts in a knot actually read the article?? I mean every word of it? You can't just skim over the information and then make comment. It says under some circumstances if there is a threat to Canadian lives or property then and only then will that inf o be used and passed on to other agencies. If there is no immediate threat then the info would be discounted and that would be that. So please all of you take a couple minutes are read everything and you may encounter a moment of clarity of thought before makin reduculous comments.


Chris/Man
said

CSIS might also use information from Outer Space or Inner Earth in order to protect Canadians , would that be OK in the Liberal eyes?


Mike from Guelph
said

"Protecting Canadian lives" is what they say, but last time I checked torturing people only pisses people off. How about you stop torturing people, and being nice. THEN nobody will attack us. Imagine a foreign country invades your land, tortures your people, all for the sake of their protection? Not exactly going to make you NOT attack them. Most of the people tortured are innocent civilians too. Canadians have been so persuaded to fear these people, so that we give the okay for a war and the government gets their oil. It's not a war on terrorism if we are the ones terrorizing.


Kevin
said

If Osama was tortured and he gave up the info about 9/11 and we were able to stop it, how bad would people feel now? Thew problem with law enforcement and prevention is that you never see the results of the efforts when it works, you only see the results of the failures.


polliticaly incorrect
said

is there much difference between tortures and terrorists both inflict terror


len from alta
said

If it comes to were they need the information to stop or find out if someone is going to atack or cause harm to us in canada then by allmeans make them tell anyway they no how torture them and make them talk .To hell with all those bleeding hearts. Hope its u that get it first maby u change your minds then.


Wally
said

No Suprise here. This coming from a government who is buddy-buddy and doing large scale business with a nation now notorious for kidnapping, torture, and detention without charge. Hell just a short time ago CNN reported that Obama had signed a bill making detention without charge a domestic type law encompassing American citizens.This is the result of a world power driven out of control by paranoid, inept and juvinile leadership for 8 years and sneak,y sleezy lying politicians like the ones sitting now!You want to be Americanized well You got it. Our current government walks almost in lockstep with the regime south of the border. Bet your mom once told you to watch what you wish for. Enjoy your majority for now!


Kevin in Calgary
said

Oh you bleeding heart liberals make me sick !!! let the intelligence people do they're job, and protect the freedom and values we so cherish. And you just go about your free, democratic and wonderful lives. without this information they gather from such methods we might as well all be living in fear wondering when the next plane is going to hit the next skyscraper!!


Aaron in Toronto
said

I think some people either mis-read or mis-understand the issue at hand. The Gov't is not telling CSIS to go ahead and use torture to get info. Instead, they are saying when there is creditable info come to CSIS then they should not discount or ignore the threat just because it came from another country where there is torture happening. Countries and UN were bound by law but the terrorist does not follow any rules. If these people were caught while attempting terrorism then why give them an easy ride and put them in jail for whatever long and then release them back to society? We as Canadian should have the confident and trust to CSIS to handle our national security.


Captain Canada
said

Some of you really need to read the article. If you did, it would become evident that the government has not directed CSIS to undertake torture to obtain information. Instead, it has granted CSIS the ability to act on intelligence which may have been obtained through coercive means by other states, non-state actors, etc. Canada does not condone or participate in torture, but to direct a security or intelligence agency to automatically disregard information because it has been obtained through coercive means is irresponsible. Furthermore, the government has not directed CSIS to act on this intelligence in every case. Information obtained through torture must be evaluated in relation to various other pieces of intelligence, just as any information obtained through normal means.


Jayhu
said

Question: If a confirmed enemy had a time detonated nuke in a major Canadian City and the only way to stop it is by torturing the enemy to get the information, you wouldn’t?It is people like you that get people killed. You all sicken me! Protecting a country is not a nice business, So when you see a Soldier, Police Officer or pass by that civilian organization that is charged with protecting you, just remember its because of them you can sleep easy. Maybe even say Thank you!!To my democratically elected Government do what you have to do, its not barbaric or inhuman, its sending a message, you threaten Canada and you will suffer.


Let them work, let them do their jobs.
said

When you have a hardened warrior from the other side, who does not play by the rules, good luck getting any intel without using some rough means to an end. For those they listen to left wing studies that say good intel cannot be gained through torture, I say BS.


Lamont
said

People should really read this article more carefully. There is no mention that CSIS is allowed to conduct the torture - they are upheld to all Canadian standards. All this article says is that when passing on information that is believed to received from acts of torture, CSIS can pass it on if there is threat to the public. This is somewhat in line with other facets of Canadian law, including our Charter, which has a built-in exception clause to allow other Charter rights to be broken in limited circumstances.


Niagara George
said

Once again it is good to see that frequent comment maker, Prof. Pye Chartt has said nothing about this topic. That assures me, even some of the most ardent Conservative supporters question Nicholson's wisdom on this decision. I would call his office to complain, but his support staff are the rudest poliitical people I have ever spoken to. It is impossible to raise a question with them. Every attempt is immediately made to mock your comment and question your knowldege of the facts. Even when I attempt to pass on detailed factual information straight out of Hasard or the neoCon media, they insist I am wrong and proceed to spout make-believe stories about Nicholson's proposed agenda. At least Flaherty only attempts to take credit for Liberal initiatives, but Nicholson wants to go in new directions. He is Harper's ultimate 'Horror Story in Waiting.'


LH
said

People need to read the article. It does not say Canada will be using torture, it says that if the Canadian government receives information from a foreign source that MAY have been obtained by torture, if there is a threat to public safety they will be able to use that information or share it with allies as necessary. No where does it say Canada will torture anyone! I doubt anyone on this site would want CSIS to ignore a threat to Canadians or our allies, regardless of where the information came from. They aren't condoning using torture to get information, just using information they receive regardless of how it was obtained. Can people really say that if Libya told Canada that a bomb was planted in the CN Tower and that this information might have been obtained using torture, that CSIS should just ignore it? What if your kids were going on a field trip that day to the CN tower and CSIS ignored it, would you still be ok with that then? Wake up people! Canada is not condoning torture, but sadly we can't prevent others from that practice. Using this information is not allowing a market for torture, certain countries will do it whether or not we bother to listen to the results.


Paul R
said

Hey Lefties.... I want you to look in the mirror and say to yourself...

"It is unacceptable to use information from foreign sources where torture could have been used; even if it could prevent the death of someone I care for, even if it could prevent the death of a Canadian soldier."

Bob W
said

Having "stood on the wall" myself, I can safely say that most people here have no idea what is done in the background to protect the good sleep you have at night. I believe you'd think differently if the next explosion took someone from _your_ family. What's the saying, ah yes..."All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."


Michael from Toronto
said

Unfortunately, we live in a grey world, not one that has tidy black and white distinctions. Our enemies do whatever they want and do not adhere to the same civil standards we would like to live by. There is a statement that nations tasked with heavy responsibilities eventually resort to using in these uncertain times, "nothing is off the table". Get used to it. We respond in proportion to the nature and degree of threat.


Debbie
said

This is a giant step backwards for a supposedly civilized country.


morvin
said

Torture is prohibited under international law and most countries’ domestic laws. It is considered a violation of human rights, and unacceptable under Article 5 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Additionally, signatories of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions officially agreed not to torture prisoners in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 147 countries. More specifically, under Article 8 of the Rome Statute, which established the International Criminal Court (ICC), torture may be prosecuted as a war crime. So go for it Mr. Toews. With any luck it will get you a free ticket to Geneva.


Canadian Bob
said

So as far as the government is concerned then to hell with human rights. If torture results in valuable information then it's acceptable? Wow. How far we've digressed in such a short period of time under Harper. Don't count on him doing anything about human rights in China folks. The man can't practice what he preaches, and he promotes torture and China's treatment of its people by negotiating with them... but that's OK for Conservatives. If the abuse of people around the world creates jobs and makes money for us here at home, then you're all for it! I don't know whether or not you're sad or sick or both!


Big Bob in Ottawa
said

People really need to get out and vote if they don't want the Conservatives telling them their moral values are out of line with corporate Canada. Dissappointing, extremely, unexpected unfortunately not.


Frankie
said

If it would save hundreds or thousands of lives I don't care how they get it. Ask the families of the people who died in 9/11 whether they would of care where the information came from if it would have there love ones lives.
Stop being such bleeding hearts.


reidjr
said

marie
Its not a police state are there issues sure but is no where near beeing a police state.


@Right Wing
said

I'm a conservative. I don't care about Israel. Iran has never threatened Canada & only responded to threats by Israel & USA & Harper. I would like us to stay out of that mess and not threaten to bomb anyone , thanks. You're merely a mouth piece for the Israeli supporters who don't care about Canada.


Escape and Evade
said

A certain amount of physical and mental pressure will eventually make a person reveal some credible information. However outright torture will only give you the information that the torturers want to hear. When torture is applied to bring pain beyond the human limits, the information that is collected is very inaccurate. Torturing anybody is against the law, whether it is during wartime or peacetime, it is an abomination. There are other methods of intelligence gathering that is available through the use of technologies that is not available to the public. Nano technologies have come a long, long way.


Michael from Toronto
said

People in civil societies always want others to respect human dignity and protect human rights - none of us want to be tortured. But these are human sentiments and not divine rules and laws. In reality, there is no black and white. While we can strive for black and white, we live in a grey world. We also want to preserve life but we regularly kill people in order to protect others, depending on circumstances. It is the same with torture, depending on circumstances and the nature of the person being interrogated, torture may be necessary. The best society can do is to try and pick the best people for making such decisions and to support them when they have to carry out their responsibilities.


Civilized in Canada? Nope.
said

What is most disturbing are the intellectual black holes who claim torture is okay in democratic regimes but, very, very, bad in dictatorships. This sort of moral relativism is what gave that hillbilly Bush & his kissing cousin Cheney the green light to invade Iraq for WMD's when they were dying under a decade of sanctions. ....oh wait ... aren't they doing that again with Iran? Western governments keep shovelling and you sheep keep consuming it. Democracy is dead. To recap: torture wrong. torture illegal and barbaric.

Right Wing
said

Torture is totally unnecessary under any circumstances. Torture reveals only highly suspect information. Bribery and other incentives yield better intel and more quickly. For those that resist bribery there are always threats against the family of the captive. As evidenced in WWII and every other conflict threats work wonders. In the end to make your point you simply carry through on your threat one time if the captive is unresponsive. Information flows like water after that. This technique was used with great efficiency during the Viet Nam War. Torture of an individual is the worst way to gain reliable information and it takes a great deal of effort. In the case of Islamic radicals torture is not the best method since they believe that they will go to heaven for killing westerners. They believe that their family members will also go to heaven if they die to assist the terrorist. In the end, the only way to stop Islamic terrorists from exporting their violence overseas is a one time warning of being bombed back to the stone age. They export violence after that then nuke them. Iran has already said that they would not hesitate to use a nuclear weapon against Israel the moment the get their hands on one. That being the case they should be prepared for the same treatment. End of story.


marquis
said

when one is being tortured one will confess to anything, say anything......too bad Marcel's water damaged brain isn't able to figure this out.......this act of torture reduces Canada to the level of those other barbaric countries !!!


LC
said

Can we use those drugs that can make people tell the truth instead of torture? At least, this is a little more civilized!


BL
said

Not at all surprising unfortunately.


marie
said

We are going the way of the USA, welcome to Canada's Police State! I'm disgusted by the behavior of our politicians and more disgusted that the majority thinks it's OK... The Human species hasn't evolved since the caveman... thousands of years later our mentality hasn't changed, but the word empathy has become nearly non-existant! At least the caveman protected their own! Now we are just willing to throw anyone into the fire because of our own fears!


Dave in Calgary
said

This is the party who stands for our rights and freedom? This explains the government fought the Kadar case so strongly. How do we convict criminals if government breaks the law to obtain the evidence?We do not need a long gun registry when CSIS can break Canadian Law.


The Truth Hurts!
said

Socities that exchange their freedoms for little security end up getting neither! When you give you rulers the green light to violate human rights do not be naive to think it is going to stop at the bad guys. Read history people! You will know that fascist regimes ALWAYS scared people into giving their freedoms for security. This is a dark road that Canada under the Cons leadership is heading to.


Red
said

Regardless of the human rights debates, torture isn't a reliable source of information. While it can loosen tongues, it also causes the victim to say absolutely anything to end it, reliable or no. In conjunction with other means of information gathering methods? It might be (theoretically) useful. On its own, it simply isn't. Read anything about the Salem Witch Trials, the various purges of the Inquisition (the destruction of the Knights Templar being one), and you will see how unreliable- and how easily abused- torture can be.


I wont stand on guard for that
said

And the slide from morality continues. I remember a Canada that would have been disgusted by this. A Canada that helped draft international laws preventing torture. Now we have not only been complacent in doing it and covering it up in Afghanistan, we are now announcing to the world we fully support it and think it's a great way to get information from people who won't talk. Disgusting. Anyone can be made to say anything with the use of torture. We have just made sure everyone, regardless of what they know is now at the risk of torture "just in case" we get information from them. For Shame!!!!


Terry
said

Good! I am glad that they are getting information through torture. If that means they can stop a terrorist attack or even kill some of these idiots fine by me.


Marcel
said

The rights of the innocent majority to live over-ride the rights of an individual who intends to do them harm. I would challenge anyone to say sincerely they would rather see their children and grandchildren dead and/or maimed than see a terrorist tortured for important information. Even Michael Ignatieff endorsed that principle, openly and in print. Moreover, anyone familiar with the history of warfare knows torture does yield useful information. For example, the Gestapo in France limited the effectiveness of the French Resistance because they were able to get a lot of useful information by torture. The idea that torture is always useless is a myth. We also have to ask what constitutes torture. As someone who drowned (age 15) and had to be re-started, I know drowning - water-boarding - is highly unpleasant - but one does recover both physically and psychologically. I do not consider water-boarding torture.


Tim
said

Good call, MHB. So while we're suffering the consequences of some horrible incident that we knew about, but didn't do anything about because the information MAY (the article states MAY) have been extracted through immoral means, we can rest assured that at least we're morally superior to the people killing us. What's life without feeling superior after all? I'd rather we sacrifice an impractical concept than lives.


Bumcrack USA
said

Harper did say, after all, that we would no longer recognize Canada once he was finished with it. And we won't.


TM
said

It's no surprise such a directive comes from a CONservative government.


F.commonsens
said

Who will exchange a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither and will lose them both. On the other side of the coin:Information received under torture reflects what you want to hear and never what really is.As a country, we have become as evil as the evil we claim to be against; it is urgent not only to STOP but to REVERT course.


dwayne from da peg
said

So here is the scenario for all the human rights wacko's. The police are called by a person known to give incorrect informaion that there is a man holding hostages with a gun. What do the police do??? They go in and secure the situation with guns drawn. If the info turns out to be wrong then an appology is issued and no one gets hurt. Same story with national security issues. If a country that has a history of human rights abuse contacts CSIS and says there is a plot to blow up government building in Ottawa this week. Then CSIS is obligated to act on this info and get other agencies involved to put a stop to the potential threat. If there was no plot then an appology is given and no one get hurt. The order is for exceptional reasons only...so relax everyone, its under control.


Bulldog
said

Torture may be a crime against humanity, however lets define what torture is. A little water boarding, shouting, intimidation, sleep depravation, perhaps a punch or two is not torture, when compared to beheadings, acid in the face, stoning, dismemberment of fingers and toes, burning, electrocution. If intelligence organizations occasionally have to resort to extreme measures to gain vital information from an extremist, hell bent on wreaking havoc upon innocent people....well thats the price we must pay....After all if torture is a crime against humanity, remember, so is mass murder.....


RJ in Halifax
said

For all those who condemn the use of information "possibly" obtained under torture - if CSIS learned that terrorists were going to fly planes into the TD Centre in Toronto, similar to the World Trade scenario from information obtained from torture, should this information be tossed away and ignored, simply because of its source? Is human life not more improtant than human rights? Don't you have to be alive before you have "rights"?


LS
said

Scott I agree 100%. MHB if you can't see the difference between opressive regime and a democracy attempting to prevent the "real crimes against humanity", then I suggest you move to an opressive regime and live there for a while. Torture is NOT a crime against humanity, maybe a crime against the individual, but not when done to preserve the lives of true innocents.


Jettle
said

Yes, Stephen Harper has changed Canada forever. That we are expected to accept torture under the guise of "national securlity" is beyond contempt. People being tortured will say anything they think you want to hear to make the torture stop. Torture is wrong and the information gleaned suspect.


Original Canadien
said

Although we cannot (not just "should not") torture people nor break privacy or other laws to acquire inforamtion, once done, the information whould never be ignored if it proves accurate and should always be used even in court cases. In instances where a law was broken, the inforamtion - if proven accurate - should still be use/admited, however, the person/officer involved would then have to face charges of breaking said law. This could create a situation where an officer broke into someone's house to steal info that woudl still get convicted based on it, however, teh officer would then face charges and likely lose his job - but hey, if the "criminal is that bad, a cop could consider the fact that person needs to be stopped IS more important than his employment. I'm okay with that. instead of that "criminal" walkign free on a "technicality".


Sean
said

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.Benjamin Franklin


noodle
said

Wow I love the hypocrisy. Our government call all the middle eastern countries evil and brutal and dictatorial, but we start to operate like they do, or so WE say they do.No wonder these countries hate us,they lie to our own people to serve an agenda they never disclose to the public. I guess first and foremost, we are chasing the US's hunger for power and control, for them.If these guys actually tried helping these countries instead of taking them over with puppet gov'ts the world might move ahead.


Scott (in Alberta Party country)
said

Unfortunately, when it comes to public safety, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... as vile as that may seem. For your safety... for my safety, let CSIS do what they must to mitigate the actions that attempt to destroy that safety.


MHB
said

Torture is a crime against humanity. Anyone under torture can confess to anything to end the unbearable pain he is going through. This decision by the Harper regime is a great example that the differences between the West and other opprssive countries is not really as big as one may imagine!


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I feel that if certain organs were in demand, less effort would be made to revive people. Am I being silly? Not really. I had a bad experience in hospital when my heart stopped, the doctors tried to revive me and failed. They stopped and said I was gone. I came around on my own when the nurse was giving a final BP reading of 'zero'. I heard her declare me dead! It was all I could do to shake my head but they never caught on til I was able to open my eyes. You should have seen them scramble then! I thought the nurse was going to faint. The thing is, I think we may write people off too soon when there is something of value to be gained from them.

me

Should all Canadians be automatically considered organ donors?