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Auto bailout should hinge on saving jobs: CAW
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Sat. Dec. 13 2008 11:19 PM ET
Canadian Auto Workers president Ken Lewenza praised the announcement of a potential $3.3-billion lifeline to the country's car industry, but warned that it should hinge on promises by manufacturers to maintain jobs and keep plants open.
"The reason the CAW pushed for government involvement is because all governments are intervening in the economy and in particular the auto industry," Lewenza told CTV Newsnet Saturday.
"But we want to protect our existing investment and our existing facilities. So there has to be a condition of government intervening to support the existing facilities and keep them open."
Ontario NDP leader Howard Hampton said automakers should be providing both employment and product guarantees, if they are receiving government assistance.
"You need to get product guarantees, in other words, you want to be producing the cars and trucks of the future that people want to buy," he said during an appearance on CTV Newsnet on Saturday.
"And secondly, you need some job guarantees."
On Friday, Industry Minister Tony Clement announced the bailout package, which is a joint effort between the federal and Ontario governments.
Clement indicated during a news conference that manufacturers will have to prove they have plans for maintaining long-term viability in order to receive funds.
As well, the entire payout hinges on whether or not the United States approves its own proposed $14 billion bailout package.
Hampton said he felt the Canadian efforts appeared to be on the right track.
"My understanding is that the money that is being put out the door, or the money that is being offered, is conditional upon the proportion of auto sector jobs that are in Ontario and Canada now, staying in Ontario and Canada," he said.
"That's a fair start," Hampton added.
$70 per hour?
While some critics have suggested autoworkers are costing their industry too much and making wages of more than $70 per hour, the Detroit Three automakers each report paying an average hourly wage of less than $30 U.S. for their workers.
The contentious $70 figure, which has been applied to U.S. workers only, also factors in health care costs and benefits for retired employees.
Hampton said the overriding market conditions are to blame for auto industry's immediate financial challenges -- not labour costs.
"It's not workers' wages that have resulted in this calamity," he said.
"What's really happened is this: American consumers are so scared right now that they've stopped buying just about everything."
During a meeting with Chrysler executives on Friday, Lewenza said, company officials indicated that if market conditions change, they would be able to pay back government loans within two to three years.
According to Lewenza, auto manufacturers understand the importance of changing their business plans to include initiatives such as developing more environmentally friendly vehicles.
However, he said a shift in practices will "take some time."
The news of the Canadian bailout package came a day after the U.S. Senate voted down the proposed $14-billion American bailout, after the United Auto Workers refused to make wage cut concessions.
After the vote, the White House announced it may dip into the US$700-billion bank bailout fund to help the auto sector.
The haggling coincides with an announcement by General Motors that it will shut down nearly all production in its North American plants throughout the month of January.
The move will affect 21 factories and cut 250,000 cars from the company's first quarter production schedule.
GM's Oshawa, Ont., plant will shut down for six weeks beginning in January.
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I fail to see just what a minister could learn by an on site visit that he couldn't get from people who are actual experts in the various fields of work involved. It is doubtful that he is any sort of nuclear engineer or expert in construction. Just another photo op...
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Comments are now closed for this story
Mary Clarke
said
So if G.M does go bankrupt,Ontario taxpayers are going to be paying big time,for a long time.
Open the books and see if they're cooked.
said
Bailout are a scam by the politicians to use taxpayer money to rescue greedy corporate thugs who have run their companies into the ground.
Give Me A Break
said
Harper the socialist loves blowing money
said
John Black Ontario
said
sdgreen, North Saanich BC
said
I would suggest that both management and union workers should reduce their wages by at least 30%. Otherwise I am not interested with the taxpayer bailing them out.
Lorne
said
Save jobs - in order to save jobs you have to be willing to make concessions. I don't see this happening at this time.
A cut in salaries to management and workers could probably ease the burden and save a few jobs. No bonuses and reduced benefits would also help.
Get on the ball!!! There has te be cooperation between all parties involved.
How can a bunch of idiots resolve any crisis?
Lynn-SW Ontario
said
Emma Leniuk -Dozois
said
since I have done my part for the local economy?
Larry
said
Philip
said
Bob Beausoleil
said
American In Canada
said
I can't believe the Conservatives caved in to the Liberal/NDP pressure to follow an approach that is so anti-conservative.
That said, at least Canadians are showing some emotion and speaking out (for OR against). The apathy south of the border toward the bailouts is very sad indeed.
Bee
said
The problem with your post is that it uses simple logic and makes too much sense. Politicians aren't known for conclusions based on the straight-forward sensible approach.
But I like the way you think. Too bad one of the prerequisites for being a politician is having the opposite pattern of thought.
Sick of the rhetoric in Vancouver
said
I am 100% against lending them money unless they can show how they intend to pay it back and how they intend to repair their obviously lousy approach to managing their business. Don't kid yourself people, whent he government grants a loan, it's with your money, not theirs!
We need to begin to make these people accountable. Things are out of hand and it's time for some very real business intelligence to take over.
Neil, Calgary
said
I realize that the working CAW Joe doesn't make $70/hr. But they should be able to take a cut on $30/hr and it seems that benefits may be a little rich. What I don't know what to do with is the pricey pensions that factor into the $70/hr. I can't see Joe Public being interested in funding these pensions which are better than what most retired Canadians are getting. The big 3 can restructure all they want but if they are on the hook for alot of the pensions, bailouts will likely only delay the inevitible.
Rob
said
will johnson oshawa
said
John in Calgary
said
Look at the Chart in the background, that number says 2006 is when the deficit started for the Auto Trade, look at the slope behind it and the years that must represent. And they are just doing something about it now?
Government's responsibility is the People. Harper I absolutely hated you when you first came on the scene because you were different then what I was use to. I have opened my eyes and see the good you want to do for the country even when many don't. It has only been stated that the money will help the Auto Industry but it doesn't say how.
I hope you throw a huge bombshell out there that announces that the money will be there to help family's while husbands and wifes are being retrained after losing their jobs.
There is not one person that can say that is the wrong thing to do with the money. The horse is already has a broken leg, no amount of money is going to put him back on the race track. We might as well feed the people.
Robert B.
said
Lets give the big three a whole bunch of money to remain in business, lets keep the caw, uaw working producing stuff people don't want to buy and then when its all over the tax payer will again bend over and take it like dodo's! While the unions and big automakers will give their top executives big bonuses for doing their utmost!!!!
Is a civil revolution in the Making????
art from NB
said
sask guy
said
Choele - Canada
said
Tom P St Catharines
said
Get your head out of the sand and please join the rest of the real world, CAW workers are grossly overpayed and in my mind are guilty of raping the Canadian Public with overpriced autos. Is these blunt enough because I could add a few prime adjectives to emphasize my point. If you continue to be arrogant and self effacing the people you represent might be with out jobs and thus you would be unemployed along with them.
GrandPa
said
michel
said
Lance
said
PO'd Consumer
said
Ken Laninga
said
1. bad, greedy managers
2. greedy unions
So let management cut their benefits and let unions cut benefit also
Compare Toyota's hourly cost per employee with that of GM for example. CRAZY.
OF COURSE they want $$$ from the taxpayer.
NO WAY should they get any.
Is it any wonder so many companies (like Telus) send so many Canadian jobs offshore!?
Companies are in business for ONE REASON: to make $$ for their owners; the investors. NOTHING else.
Murray@Cobourg
said
SWG in NB
said
true and free
said
goldhat44
said
Taxpayers don't pay taxes to keep megacorporations in business, okay?
ElDiabloStone
said
If the government truely wants to stimulate the economy it will give everyone who filed income tax returns last year 10,000 to spend on whatever.
And just curious..how much is the Mexican government giving to the auto makers?? Or is the five dollars an hour labour rate enuff?
funkright
said
Andrew Cooper
said
Fed up with CAW
said
Matt in Windsor
said
Yes, I know that the Japs have a sprinkling of assemply plants in N.A. but that was only to placate some growing protectionist sentiments. The Japs are experiencing sales losses in the 30 percentiles and where are they cutting jobs first?- IN THE NORTH AMERICAN PLANTS! They take care of their own and we should do the same. If you buy Import, the money doesn't stay here. Period.
Close the borders, let them sell Hondas and that other assorted crap to the Chinese time we took care of ourselves-they certainly are.
troubled_taxpayer
said
Why should I as a taxpayer assume the liabilities of poorly managed companies with labour unions that refuse to budge on concessions?
John Bark
said
What a joke! Why? I went to University for 8 years after high school, and as a professor made $96,000 in my final year before retiring. My gross retirement pension is $2,350 per month, and my medical/dental premiums are deducted from my pension.
The auto manufacturers should be allowed to go into Ch 11 in the U.S. Any Candian bailout money will be flushed down the toilet within months, and Chrysler/GM will leave for the U.S. anyways, sticking Canadian taxpayers with the bill. This bailout only postpones the inevitable.
Robert B
said
Cut sick days.
Cut vacation.
Cut - cut cut - just like the rest of us.
Agrees with all of you
said
I agree with Canada Goose, SK, Steve Taylor, Scott, JD, Jake, Lee, jeff, Rodney, Widowmaker, jamie, JMB, Randy.....
Politicians, are you listening to your people?
Media, are you reporting what the people are saying?
Union leaders are you listening that the poelp of this country don't support you?
Most importantly and who the Cdn people feel for, union membership.. don't let your union leader thugs intimidate you any more. I know what it's like. Stand up to these bumbs.
Wes
said
Bob in Calgary
said
b. tyler
said
So who buys auto's from the big 3, I do. Used ones, because resale prices for the imports are out of my reach. You see I survive on $10.50 an hour, part time with no benefits (zilch,zero,nada)and a small pension. Do I support my taxes going to the big 3. You bet, may need another used car pretty soon.
Lynn
said
thinker
said
Peter in Ontario
said
It's a shame that so many people (posters, and politicians alike) are more interested in attacking workers rather than providing measures to soften impact of a global recession. This was exactly Prime Minister Harper's initial response to this crisis: attacking unions and organizations which require public funding to survive. I think almost everyone agrees that Harper's initial approach wasn't such a smart one.
Instead we need a vision of how these manufacturing industries will emerge after the recession, and to start implementing plans to restructure those ailing sectors and re-create good paying jobs. The current bailout is a necessary first step in that direction.
Start these businesses again from scratch
said
We're sick of seeing these union thugs.
Who cares what the say.
I'm not looking for a new car.
I'll go to horse and buggy before I buy another car made by folks represented by these people.
Greatest threat to this country next to terrosrism these damn greedy union leaders if you ask me.
kev in ontario
said
greedy non-unionists! heheh
Linda in Vancouver
said
I don't see why the government should pay them to do nothing.Or,even worse,make more cars no one wants.
To me,it seems we should use the same amount of money to help people making things we really need. How smart is it to fill more parking lots with unsold vehicles??
And lastly,couldn't the same amount of money save twice as many jobs of people who make less than those currently with the CAW doing what seems to be useless work??
kev in ontario
said
if theyre paid $20, thatd save around $500 per vehicle, yeah, thatll probably turn the companys around. lol
Satin Marok (toronto)
said
Bring these folks to realty. Who in this world gets 95% of their Pay after Retirement. GOD Bailout Taxpayers from these Folks.
Scott ONT
said
That is a typical I'm better than you so I deserve more response one could expect from an overpaid worker.
There are way more of the $15/hr workers out there contributing taxes than you "special" folk. I personally pay almost $50,000/yr in taxes and I don't think you guys should get a cent. You guys bargained yourselves into a hole and should pay the price for it. That's what capitalism is all about.
I don't wish any ill will on anyone and I know that times will be tough for those that lose jobs but what about everyone else who's lost their. Forestry, construction etc.
You people need to grow up and realize the world doesn't revolve around you
Jeff - Halifax
said
People want a car they can get to work in, while not spending a fortune.
Terry out west
said
1/ no white collar worker can make more than 250K/Yr, bonuses are gone and no stock options which is a no brainer cuss their stock is worthless anyway. If they don't like it goodbye and good ridance.
2/ no blue collar worker makes more that 60K/yr and no overtime is allowed cuss you're now a salary employee and no christmas bonuses, if you don't like it quit.
3/ The big 3 will be limited to 4 product lines each, 1 small hybrid car, 1 midsize hybrid car, 1 fullsize hybrid car, 1 3/4 ton 4x4 hybrid truck and no SUV's big or small even if they're hybrids. In GM's case the Chev car, Chev truck, Buick car, and Cadillac lines are toast and I'm sure there are a few I missed since they have 39 different product lines. There, how do like those demands Mr. CAW. I hope ya choke on them.
ezmoney365now
said
Nice to dream of something so simplistic but so wonderfully powerful!
Let the Big 3 Sink
said
A in BC
said
The BC Forestry workers were union too.
The economy won't support so many automakes and the big 3 won't follow trends or stay competive. No point prolonging the inevitable if the union won't meet halfway.
I'm union too and all for supporting the employees, but you have to make cuts everywhere. If CAW can't see that's better than no jobs, that's their problem and they need to lose the jobs and get non union work for a while.
Calvin
said
If you are going to give the money away, give it to companies that are building cars people want.
Why not call Mr. (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW Porshe ...) and say here is a lot of money if you set up shop here.
Instead of inovation, the "Big 3" maintained buisness as usual and lobby tactics. They should be rewarded for their terrible buisness practices.
The government didn't help the tech sector and the forestry sector, and I am sure there are other examples.
The CAW shouldn't be depended on to make government policy, they were part of the problem, not entirely, but they share the blame.
Krissy
said
I feel for those who jobs ar eon th eline right now...all too much. We in BC dealt with this in the 90's with the forest industry. BUT.....if no one is buying your product unfortunately you lose your job. It's called life.
Money should NOT go to auto manufacturers. Instead, money should be offered for retraining to help those same people get the skills required to get another high paying job in an other industry. An, fancy that, it also increases Canada's productivity which is dismal, as well as increases the innovation and skills of our workforce which brings other high tech industires (aka high tech jobs) to Canada.
I just wish to god that someone would slap the union over the head to knock some ever loving sense into them. Stop bithcing because you might loose members of your union which keep you living the high life and instead focus on the people of Canada and the repercussions of continuing to make stupid decisions which do not fix the problem.
robert
said
Yvonne in Huntsville
said
Brent - Penticton, BC
said
Scott ONT
said
Yeah, you're the only one getting your fair share, that's why you've bankrupted the industry you work for and are about to be out of work. That's got to be the dumbest thing I ever heard.
And it doesn't only apply to the autoworkers union. Our postal service sucks and we pay more than just about every other country in the world. Our kids suffer because teacher's are upset about having to work 6 hours a day ( don't get me wrong, some teachers go about and beyond but for the most part )...
Unions are a way of the past. Your salary should be based on performance, not some stupid union. Kind of reminds you of the mob promising protection to little mom and pop businesses eh. Give me so much a month and I'll make sure you're safe.
In the real world however that's called extortion. I still can't believe you said that, lol.... wow
susan thompson
said
malarkey
said
buy our way into a position where these crucial decisions being made are more reflective of OUR needs.
lot's of insightful and often spot on observations can be found on these forums.
it is plain that the decision makers at the Big Three are at best incompetent. makes no sense allowing failures to continue steering the ship.and in turn our economies.
let us drive, i say. we'll have paid for the ride already
kr
said
greedy non-union slugs. lol!
Saving the bosses butts for their bad decisions.
said
They are really lucky this time!
said
Reducing COST is the major issue for a company to be successful!
Cutting wages from every single section might help. Starting from the C.E.O. all the way down!
There are also a few major factors that they need to work on. Those "retire employee" are the ones that pull the company down - especially down in the States where every single retire and current employee WANTS HELATH CARE which cost GM BILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY SINGLE YEAR!
Toyota had MUCH LESS NUMBER of retire employee and they hire younger guys and try to get ride of them over ten years of service because of THIS BIG PROBLEM! They are smarter but they still CRY over the lack of BUSINESS LATELY! Same goes with HONDA!
Then comes to the customer part. With the high unemployment rate across the world, it is very difficult for any consumer to BUY a car if they DON'T even have a job!
Thirdly, they also need to REDUCE their product line. Keep building the vehicles but CAN'T FIND A BUYER just donesn't make sense!
Like Mr. Donald Truimp said,"Use the B word next time. It's not such a bad idea! Nobody will laugh at YOU! This is the ONLY way that GM can finally CUT DOWN OR REDUCE their expense by starting a new contract with every single department!"
Again, they are very lucky and they all should learn a very valuable lesson by NOW!
Take the free time and stay home, everybody! We should be thankful that we all got a roof over our head and food in our fridge!
Stop using those CREDIT CARD! THEY WILL KILL US ALL EVENUALLY!
Merry Christmas to eveybody!
Harper gang extorting your money for his cronies.
said
macdog
said
Valerie - Brantford
said
Jake Castlegar
said
It is not the Conservatives that want to rush in and bailout the Big 3. It is the NDP/Liberal/Block Coalition who pressure the government to do this without due consideration for the wishes of Canadian tax payers. The Coalition threatens to overthrow a legally elected government if the government would not do as the Coalition wish. If the Coalition have their way, they would come up with $50 billions to bailout the Big 3 with no pre-conditions
Jean Pierre in , NB, BC, and Ont
said
The tax payer just seek thsi money being thrown away- - The auto workers will have to either CUT BACK they salary or find a REAL job 9maybe they are uncaple of during an HONEST DAYS WORK -
Truth Hurts
No Bailout
said
Gary
said
John Royle, Ontario
said
mark in bc
said
Sounds stupid eh?
What makes the auto sector think they are so special, they're only building cars...big deal!!
There are too many cars being built and unfortunately the big 3 are not building great vehicles and are hurting.
Why should we bail out mediocrity. Let them fail and new company's will start up and take over.
We do believe in Free Enterprise don't we?
Or are we going to become like the old Soviet Union?
my two bits
NoBailouts
said
Alberta Jim
said
Germaine
said
wall©rawler™
said
How bout you saying instead that the money should come with a stipulation that unions would roll back wages and concessions if the big 3 would agree to retool their factories to produce less gas guzzling vehicles that people who don't have the wages that unions do, can afford to drive them now.
Melanie Terrace,BC
said
If this recession goes on for a long time,they are going to be many people in this country who are out of work,and in need.And most of them don't have the savings that someone making $30 per hour should have.If they don't have any savings after years of making those kinds wages,who's fault is that?
This will help the wealthy workers,and leave people who work just as hard,for far less money,to sned their tax dollars to the CAW members.
I'm OK with sending my tax dollars to help.I'd just rather help those struggling along on after losing their $15 per hour, with no benefits jobs.This is a classic example of the rich getting richer.
If the can't compete,they should get out of the way.We can buy vehicles from those who can.
We did it in the forest industry in BC.Years of propping up inefficient mills did not help.The mills eventually failed any way,the taxpayers wasted lots of money,and there is still no market for our products.
Let's get these people jobs making things that they can sell.
saving union butt
said
Greg Newmarket ON
said
Laz in Finance
said
Oil is down to $45/bbl. Is there a bailout for the oil industry? Forestry is in the toilet, are they getting a bailout?
I don't mind helping business when times are tough. But it better be more than just a quick fix. Besides, isn't EI the same thing. The only difference is that the person can retrain. But giving money to a "bad business model" is just stupid.
JS
said
Honesty
said
The car business today, though, has a much, much bigger problem and great, beautiful, fuel efficient, high-performing, perfectly reliable, value-laden cars simply cannot fix it, at least in the short term. The problem is credit. It simply is not flowing freely out there.
The whole auto industry revolves around credit. Car companies need it to finance their product plans, pay their suppliers, their raw materials costs, their employees and to cover other expenses.
Suppliers need credit for all the same reasons car companies do, and also to help subsidize the delivery of parts to car makers.
Dealers need credit to finance their inventories, and, of course, customers need credit to buy new cars.
That's why auto-building nations around the world, from Argentina to France are bailing out their resident car companies with loans and subsidies. This is a global problem.
Credit is not flowing and only national governments have the ability and resources to do something about it. Until credit starts moving, no amount of cost cutting, wage cutting, marketing, or brilliant vehicle design and engineering will fix the auto industry.
That's the bailout matter in a nutshell. Right now it is not about greedy unions or incompetent management; it's about credit.
Al from Halifax
said
Makes lots of sense.
JJ in Ottawa
said
Actually, the only industry I would like see dying in Canada is the fossil fuel industry.
Time to save the planet! Down with petroleum products. Let's make all fossil fuel illegal in Canada!
Brandon, Alberta
said
Cambob
said
So if they expect my taxes to be used to invest in a car company, I expect a new car.
Where is my new car?
Julius PR
said
Having said this, this is a win-win situation for the government, car manufacturers, and the public.
Larry NL
said
How does a bail out with tax money secure jobs for the CAW?
No body is buying any cars that the CAW makes. The bail out just doesn't add up economically.
Doug BC
said
I generally support the need for unions.BUT,I never support those who are so greedy that they are unable to see when they are pricing themselves,and their company right out of business.
THese people are going to have to find a way to compete with the foreign car makers,and their fellow workes in the USA.It is not acceptable for them to expect the taxpayers to keep on subsidizing the inflated labour costs of the "Bug Three".Especially,since the vast majority of Canadian workers make fat less than they do.NO WAY.Workers in the USA have taken huge cuts to help themselves.If worker here cannot do something similar,let their jobs bleed off to the USA.Help the company while the credit market gets sorted out.But a huge "NO" to taxpayers topping up auto workers wages here.
As to the idea of giving us all vouchers to buy the cars,I heard this same idea being tossed around south of the border.I doubt it would help much here,because more than 80% of the cars we make go to the USA.Canada produces far more cars than we need here.As for the USA,I think most of those who could use help buying a car are really in so deep that they would rather save their homes.
I'm not fond of this bail out.But,at the level of $3.5 billion,I can compromise my way to acceptance.I won't be prepared to go much deeper unless the CAW has some answers.In the USA,they're already talking about their $17 billion as "just a down payment".They need $100 billion.
I love my GMC.But NO WAY!
Chris Ont
said
p west seagrave
said
Marg
said
Rob J
said
If our government is suppost to represent us and our interests why are they not listening to the majority of Canadian who are saying NO to a bailout.
I feel for the workers that will be affected but as a person who lost their career job over six months ago and was forced to take a job at half of what I was making to survive, I simply have no sympathy for anyone in the auto sector. No body came to bail out my workplace so that I could keep working. To be honest I am just sick of this being the major headline, it is time to put this to bed and move on. It would not sadden me to see GM or the other two close their doors. I can only use my vote to show my displeasue with the government not listening to its people, and I am sure that time will come sooner than later.
Derek Jackson Sarnia ON
said
Jack in TO
said
Nothing will save Big 3 in US & Canada from bankruptcy. Even in "good times" they were loosing money - what makes anybody think that suddenly GM & Chrysler can wave a magic wand and turn things around?
I say let them go bankrupt - it will be painful for some, but economy will end up healthier without them.
common cents
said
Samuel
said
D Bone, ON
said
Please!
said
Please Mr Harper can I get some of that cash your handing out, if you want them to keep building cars when there is no market for them can we, can we please MR Harper get some money to build houses that no on wants to buy. Please I know you told me to go gamble on the stocks but they just keep going down. You were right they keep getting cheaper every day there a better deal.
Tim
said
We don't see CAW offering one thin little dime towards bailing out the auto industry and the people that PAY THE CAW to help them ..
Pass a Law that states anyone making less then $15.00 dollars an hour is TAX EXCEMPT !!
Don't ask the poor to support the upper income bracket !!
We here in Oshawa need help with our high Hydro Rates and paying our bills ...
Help us out CAW !!
troubled_taxpayer
said
The unions need to realize that this money comes from taxpayers and soften their stance. The key to success will be flexibility from all stakeholders. Unfortunately, that probably means some job losses and some pay-cuts.
Ron In Niagara
said
The union Boss's demanded higher wages and won---The Auto Execs followed by giving them selfs a bigger bonis . Gread followed Gread.
Now nither has money left to line their pockets so we the Tax payer s are TOLD to pay up..MARK MY WORDS ----NOTHING WILL CHANGE. First thing the union will do is demand a bigger raise and get it ...Then the Auto EXEC's will in turn take the Lions share Just as before.....
Hay I need some cash or I'll be in trouble ...how about the rest of you guys....Enough is enough...This is not a Government thing IT'S GREAD !
Big bank Gread is also the problem SCREW THE LITTLE GUY. Then blame the Federal and Provincil Government for the problem...YA RIGHT !
It falls back to plain and simple GREAD !!
kate
said
James in Calgary
said
Brent - Penticton, BC
said
Federal government (Canada & US) invest in preferred shares rather than out right bailouts, and outsourcing to be reduced (not eliminated).
This could be a start and if anyone else has constructive ideas, please post. T
Lucas Tam
said
JMA
said
Gord in Toronto
said
"But we want to protect our existing investment and our existing facilities. So there has to be a condition of government intervening to support the existing facilities and keep them open."
Think about this folks, our existing facilities (ie assembly lines) are only suitable for producing cars that nobody buy, a bailout would only enable GM to keep those facilities on line longer and build more cars that nobody want.
This sounds like a good plan to throw away more good money after bad.
Fred Clement
said
ma larkey
said
ummm, if no one is buying...don't the wages become a moot point? apparently not.
also, if canadian workers get paid, say 3 bucks an hour, will that mean i can buy a new car for say...a quarter of what they sell for now? more than likely, not.
if my government throws money at the bumbling oafs that run these companies, why can't we treat it like we've actually bought into the industry, and have a say. like maybe we determine what kind of cars they make (thereby determining the product is actually WANTED BY THE CONSUMER). and give us, the people who pay for other's mistakes, a true chance to control our destiny.
as a last smart-alec aside, IF our tax dollars end up saving this industry...where can i pick up my multi-million dollar bonus?
or does it go to the screw-ups that put us here in the first place? think we already know that answer....
Lee in Calgary
said
Myth: GM isn't selling vehicles because they aren't making the cars people want.
Truth: GM sold as many cars last year as Toyota.
Myth: GM doesn't make enough good quality hybreds.
Truth: GM makes more hybreds than any other car maker and the Chevy Malibu has won the best car award two years in a row.
If GM is making good cars that people want to buy then why can't they compete with Toyota. The answer I'm sure is very complicated and I'm sure very smart people have long explanations but as a pretty simple man I can't get past the fact that in the US, the fully loaded labour rate per hour is $72 while the same rate for Toyota is roughly $42. That means that ever car made by GM costs roughly $30 more per hour to make. Based on that unless GM can convince us to pay 60% more for their cars they have to find ways to cut costs in materials, adverstising or deliver methods to stay competetive.
Unless the UAW in the US and the CAW here in Canada come to the table and accept their share of the responsibility and further accept their share of the cuts, in either the number of employees or the wages and benefits then we are only throwing good money after bad, however if GM can get their labour rates close to Toyota then it's a worthwhile investment.
I hope the unions think long and hard about what's best for their members. A $5 per hour wage cut, a few less sick days, a couple of less vacation days and a benefits package closer to other industries or a lump of coal for your members.
Canada Goose Whistler
said
If they drop another 20,000. off this price to 17,000. I still wouldn't be interested. This is their financial crises more new car would make there problem worst. Their not making money on what they have or are they selling any. So why build more cars? Go to the bank their the people that lend money not me.
Vj
said
Layton B in Moncton NB
said
On the other hand, we as a nation could...take over a car company. If they're gonna get saved with our money, then it only stands to reason that we have an ownership stake. Kinda motivates you to buy one when that companies success offsets your taxes don't it. I bet we could get Chrysler cheap. If we wait until January I bet we could get General Motors for a fire sale price. Saturn for a song anyway.
But most of all, people need to stop cheering for them to go under. I cannot believe that any one would cheer for the loss of nearly a million jobs. Look at yourself and think how YOU would feel if someone was cheering for you be unemployed.
Ryan P.
said
gee
said
Anne M
said
Lets Stick Together
said
If the US comes through (which I'm prett sure it will), then the automakers can buy sometime to get their houses in order.
I still don't think that Chrysler will survive and eventually I believe it will be bought up and wholesale prices and only the money divisions (such as Jeep and the MiniVan) will be sold off in pieces to the highest bidder.
As for GM, well they have a lot of chopping and soul searching ahead of them, it's not going to be easy.
I think the CAW is going to have to belly up to the bar and take it's fair share of the load as well. I guess it's hard for them to figure out that it's best to take a $5per/hr paycut and keep your job, then to stay the status quo and be out of work within weeks.
I wish people on here would stop wishing that the worst thing would happen to these folks and that they would lose their jobs.
I'm not a union person, but to wish harm like this on our fellow countrymen is dispicible.
Denis
said
Against the Bailout
said
KJ in Kingston Ontario
said
It is just nuts -- there's no other explanation.
ches ns
said
John
said
This bailout isn't about helping Canadians, it's about saving politicians asses!
Dennis from Moncton
said
This means that the funds need to be applied in a way that will help the big 3 step away from their current business models that are no longer working and help them to adapt their products AND their employee relations to a more realistic, 21st century approach. You know what that means? It means creating greater efficiencies and that translates into fewer people getting things done. No matter which way you look at it, with or without the Fed bailout, jobs are going to be lost. Period.
Throwing all the money at saving jobs will do little or nothing to help. There has to be a fundamental change in philosophy in the way business is conducted. The money should be applied to help the three companies rethink what kind of vehicles they make, how they make them and to who they want to sell them.
The unions need to keep their greedy paws of the loot for the time being.
neil perrie
said
GJ
said
The Big 3 business model suggests that they only need 25% of the current manufacturing capacity. Sales are half what they were , and will halve again.
These miltant unions will only serve to destroy more companies, with the only downside to them being ultimately maybe finding a new job and starting the cycle over again.
The biggest jerk I ever met was a union boss. Glad to see kharma coming his way. Maybe he'll have to sell his yacht and covered slip now.
Unions were formed to provide basic workplace protections. Now governments mandate standards.
In my opinion,they only exist in this day and age to extort extreme wages and benefits for extremely unskilled labor, which outside of the realm of a union would be racketeering by any other name.
Allan Eizinas
said
It would be interesting if Toyota put in a reasonable offer for one of these Big 3 and asked our government for a loan to assist in that purchase.
Chris in Kingston
said
Will
said
rob
said
why would the CAW feller think it a good idea to hinge the support on perserving jobs, jobs to do what, watch an empty assembly line go round and round?? it makes no sense
Eric O'Connell
said
Damned unions. They just don't get it! They honestly must not see themselves as the liability they truly are: unskilled, overpaid labour. You don't see the Japanese throwing life preservers to its auto sector, do you? In fact, Honda and Toyota are not laying off any labour at their respective Ontario plants because labour is not a liability for them during this global crisis. They are merely cutting production to match market demand.
The factors which are REALLY killing the Detroit Big Three are, in one sentence:
When every North American must exercise some measure of financial restraint during this global crisis, there is currently little demand for poor quality cars that cost twice as much to built (labour) compared to their Japanese counterparts.
GMC, Ford, and Chrysler must wrap their collective heads around this reality.
Personally, I'd like to see the Big Three sink or swim WITHOUT my tax dollars. It's called, CAPITALISM.........a free market economy. Survival of the fittest, if you will, whereby only those providing the BEST products at the BEST price survive.
It's a novel concept. Detroit should try it some time.
RCR
said
Mars Templeton-Johnson
said
greener plan
said
I would not mind a 5 billion plan to help as many people as possible.
The second part is to tell the CAW and UAW - to stay working you need to cut your pay - big time. Don't do that and you WILL loose your jobs. Because the consumer will choose the lowest cost, greenest vehicle.
bob
said
Prof. Pye Chartt
said
If I'm a BANKER who's lending money based upon risk and return, I'm not giving "The Little Three" a nickel without a sound plan that involves executive management changes, product design/engineering changes, and union concessions. Period.
If I'm a POLITICIAN, my overriding concern is the economic and, in turn, political fallout from North American automakers going bankrupt. I'm probably going to pull out the government cheque-book to do the politically "responsible" thing, short term.
As a TAXPAYER, I'm ticked off that my money is going to save private, free-market enterprises that have been stubbornly resistant to change and will likely be returning for more money in 6 months. I want major strings and oversight on my money. Period.
Of course, the underlying irony in all this is that the auto-sector "bailout" is for COMPETING businesses. We'll be funding GM, Ford, and Chrysler to battle each other for market share...and survival. We're supposed to believe that they're all going to win equally against the foreign competition.
Funny. (I'm not laughing.)
Larry NL
said
Sounds like organized criminal activity to me.
And their president looks like the mob leader.
And now this mob wants my hard earned tax dollars.
Get rid of the mob bosses and let the honest people work for a reasonable wage, like the rest of the average factory worker.
Cindy From the North
said
Fredhu in Montreal
said
With the money saved and the government help they will probably get in one for or the other they should focus on developing and bringing to market more fuel efficient cars for calendar 2009.
The Detroit 3 have to learn to make money on fuel efficient cars such as the 4 cylinder Chevy Malibu, Ford Fusion, Chrysler Sebring. These are nice and roomy cars and all 3 should be offered as FULL hybrids. Now the Malibu is offered as a mild hybrid and Ford will soon have a hybrid Fusion. No word on a hybrid car from Chrysler.
As you can see is still a some hope for the Detroit 3 but they do not have any more time to waste.
Also any government help should come with strings attached such as COMPLETE Restructuration: lower executive salaries, lower worker salaries (yes with MAJOR union concessions), commitments to keep US and Canadian plants open, reduce the number of brands to 2 or 2 for each the Detroit 3.
While I do not handing out money, LOANING (no free-bees there) them money is better than the alternatives and what their failures would cause.
Let's be pro-active about this one!
Jack
said
I'm a tax payer, not a stock holder. It's unfair (and IMHO illegal) to bail out any privately held company which I don't have an investment in. It's taxation without representation since I don't have a say in what happens in the company, and the government is taking money away from social program (which taxes are collected for) to GIVE to a privately held company that has stock holders.
It's not right.
David in Exeter
said
Maureen
said
John
said
Here's what the gov't should do - forgive the GST on new car purchases for a period of 6 months. The problem is nobody is buying anything right now. And work with the banks on financing. That should bring out the buyers. And best of all, the consumer will decide who will survive, and who doesn't.
We don't need the CAW and the Big Three collaborating with our politicians. Let the consumer decide who survives.
Joan
said
If there is little demand for vehicles - how can plants move vehicles just produced when there are thousands that were produced earlier and yet continue to sit on lots? In the US, there are literally thousands of vehicles sitting in the ports that have not moved. Now the ports are looking for more land for all these unwanted vehicles. Dealers don't want them because they can't sell them.
I don't think there is any easy answer to this situation. But if the manufacturers are bailed out, it must come with strict requirements and an overseer to see that they are met. Things can not continue as there were - there must be a huge change.
And companies must ensure they adequately take care of their customers. For instance, Ford built an engine in which spark plugs blow out resulting in $3000 plus in repair work. Now, that is ok with a warranty but painful if it has expired. It was a known defect and should be repaired by Ford regardless of warranty. But they won't touch it if the warranty is expired. And blown spark plugs are not something that should be expected. And once one blows, there is no guarantee that the others won't blow a few months down the road. Not something that will make me rush out and buy another Ford.
I think I will likely buy a Toyota next. It's time one gets out of the mentality of the Big Three as the only vehicle manufacturers that benefit the North American economy.
Randy in Kenora.
said
JMB
said
If the auto workers aren’t willing to take a pay cut to save their own jobs, why should taxpayers be willing to help them save their jobs? And don’t give me this crap that they can’t live paycheque-to-paycheque – many other people do, especially when the economy is rough, so what makes them so “special”?
If they simply want a handout, the Welfare line is down on the left near the Liberal red carpet. Don’t forget to sign up for the retraining program when you apply.
bunny
said
Jamie
said
The Widowmaker
said
rodney
said
jeff
said
Lee in AB
said
1) NO UNIONS - thats what is making the mess in the first place.
2) No one is buying the big three anymore so invite other companys like the Imports and European companies to invest here since we are buying there cars.
3) Make cars with quailty that people want.
It is not fair that the big 3 can ask for money, or rather OUR TAX MONEY!!! to save them.
I do know that thousands of jobs will be loss but that is the big 3 mismanagement and having the union messes it up as well.
Does it make sence for the union to say no cut to there paycheque when the company isn't making money to try and save the company therefore THERE JOBS!!!
When can they think -_-
Jake former resident of Ontario
said
JD
said
Scott ONT
said
Steve Taylor
said
SK
said
Canada Goose Whistler
said
Or am I wrong are all the car lots empty?
Is there a big demand for cars right now?
Jon in ON
said
It seems that if you need to borrow money, don't you talk to the lending institutions?